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On March 08 2010 08:59 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
you know, this makes me wonder if players might tweak builds specifically to harass mules. Since they're (I think) only as tough as an SCV, making a small but mobile harass force against terran specifically to wander around and clean up his mules could be pretty effective.
For zerg- 2-3 mutas plus an overlord way out behind the mineral patches
For toss 2-3 phoenix lifting, plus an observer
for terran 1 or 2 banshees that just fly between expos and snipe mules.
Since each mule knocked off with relative promptness is 200 minerals knocked off, this seems a very, very efficient way to harass- really, if you get one mule and force the opponent to throw up a turret or two next to each mineral patch or keep units there, your little assassination force has paid for itself
Oh for sure man, I'd really like to see some sort of Toss or Zerg build which is bent on harassing MULEs early, it'd REALLY punish a Terran getting a 16 or 14 Orbital. I guess the only problem would be getting through the wall-in.
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nice read and lets met think about how i view mules vs comstat... Also, include the opportunity cost of using the minerals at the specific time. I personally have won TvTs on teh basis that people are going orbital command before factory, and it gives me a huge lead imo.
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On March 08 2010 15:01 Gretorp wrote:
nice read and lets met think about how i view mules vs comstat... Also, include the opportunity cost of using the minerals at the specific time. I personally have won TvTs on teh basis that people are going orbital command before factory, and it gives me a huge lead imo.
If you're marine rushing I can understand why. Otherwise Orbital command before factory is standard play.
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i'm banshee rushing, and the 150 affects the timing of the factory.
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On March 09 2010 06:12 Gretorp wrote:
i'm banshee rushing, and the 150 affects the timing of the factory.
You must be getting gas on 6 or 7 or something ridiculous. I'm throwing my factory down at 13 after getting OC. Try looking at your timings.
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I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that, mineral-wise, orbital commands are worth the investment... because they are. I think a more interesting debate concerns the use of scan vs mules.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
I'm thinking continual mid-game lone dark templar/cloaked banshee hit-and-run harass may be viable. Either gaining map control or forcing the Terran to scan which has a measurable opportunity cost of 270 minerals.
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On March 07 2010 14:35 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Time for me to create a ling timing rush on your MULEs
Arent all the maps pretty easily walled before you can get there except scrap and the rush distance before rocks are gone is pretty large on that one. You gotta have banelings in there I think or they can just out repair.
I'm thinking continual mid-game lone dark templar/cloaked banshee hit-and-run harass may be viable. Either gaining map control or forcing the Terran to scan which has a measurable opportunity cost of 270 minerals.
Not sure if that would be too realistic in TvT. Assuming they scout the main with a floating rax like Spor (?) suggested you're going to notice if two ports worth of money is hidden.
I think it will deffinately make getting an early raven more important. I already do get one vs zerg to avoid getting hit by lurker hold 2.0.
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On March 12 2010 06:18 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 14:35 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Time for me to create a ling timing rush on your MULEs Arent all the maps pretty easily walled before you can get there except scrap and the rush distance before rocks are gone is pretty large on that one. You gotta have banelings in there I think or they can just out repair. Show nested quote +I'm thinking continual mid-game lone dark templar/cloaked banshee hit-and-run harass may be viable. Either gaining map control or forcing the Terran to scan which has a measurable opportunity cost of 270 minerals. Not sure if that would be too realistic in TvT. Assuming they scout the main with a floating rax like Spor (?) suggested you're going to notice if two ports worth of money is hidden. I think it will deffinately make getting an early raven more important. I already do get one vs zerg to avoid getting hit by lurker hold 2.0.
Lurker hold???? Do you mean banelings? Lurkers got removed.
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On March 10 2010 09:50 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 06:12 Gretorp wrote:
i'm banshee rushing, and the 150 affects the timing of the factory. You must be getting gas on 6 or 7 or something ridiculous. I'm throwing my factory down at 13 after getting OC. Try looking at your timings.
yeah you go tell gretorp how to play this
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Valhalla18444 Posts
I don't like this assertation that using a scan "costs you 270 minerals". It seems to be the prevalant thought process.
Those minerals still exist, and with a fully saturated line, the MULE consists of a smaller percentage of your current income. Advocating blowing all your OC's energy as soon as it hits 50 without fail might seem like the best way to go about things mathematically, but with the increased importance and difficulty of scouting in SC2, it's definitely not the most clever thing one can do.
Basically I just want to squash this notion that scan = 270 minerals omg unfair omg i used mule now i cant see dt i cant see attack omg they killed a depot and i need a tank right now but i used used mule, and so on. Yes, the MULE is great, but scan doesn't "cost 270 minerals" 
Food for thought: If my opponent uses MULE exclusively, intent on an early-game attack, and I block it with superior information combined with additional resources spent on units rather than depots, is he really making the best decision? Purely hypothetical situation, but it illustrates my point. Further to that, the supply boost is the only mechanic present in the game that fundamentally creates extra resources. It brings the cost of +8 supply from 100 minerals to 0 minerals, increasing the longevity of your mining base and freeing up additional resources for whatever your plans happen to be.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 12 2010 06:56 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 09:50 Mente wrote:On March 09 2010 06:12 Gretorp wrote:
i'm banshee rushing, and the 150 affects the timing of the factory. You must be getting gas on 6 or 7 or something ridiculous. I'm throwing my factory down at 13 after getting OC. Try looking at your timings. yeah you go tell gretorp how to play this
Contribute to the discussion, or don't post. Consider this a warning.
d.Apollo you too! Don't post nothing but images bro!
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On March 07 2010 10:13 Mikilatov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 10:11 ghrur wrote:
Cost of depot/8 makes a good assumption of cost per supply, but a depot does not cost 100 minerals.
Rather, it costs 100minerals+(build time)minerals because if SCVs mine 1 mineral/sec, and a depot costs 50 seconds to build, the SCV could have mined 50 minerals in that time, but didn't, thus the whole cost is 150 minerals. Great point, I'll have to add that =)
dont forget the walking distance lies from 2-8 seconds which u can call it a 5mineral if u want a concrete number :p
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On March 12 2010 07:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I don't like this assertation that using a scan "costs you 270 minerals". It seems to be the prevalant thought process. Those minerals still exist, and with a fully saturated line, the MULE consists of a smaller percentage of your current income. Advocating blowing all your OC's energy as soon as it hits 50 without fail might seem like the best way to go about things mathematically, but with the increased importance and difficulty of scouting in SC2, it's definitely not the most clever thing one can do. Basically I just want to squash this notion that scan = 270 minerals omg unfair omg i used mule now i cant see dt i cant see attack omg they killed a depot and i need a tank right now but i used used mule, and so on. Yes, the MULE is great, but scan doesn't "cost 270 minerals"
Oh for sure. It still puts it into perspective in terms of when a Terran should/wants to use a scan instead of a MULE. For me, personally, my research on the MULE has altered my decision making in terms of this on many occassions. I totally still use the shit out of scan.
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I get my Orbital Command just after I finish my first rax, which is about 16 I think. Goes something like this:
Supply on 9
Barracks on 11/12
Gas on 14-ish
(It should be timed so that you finish an SCV 3-4 secs before rax finishes, you should get 150-160 minerals exactly when rax finishes.)
Orbital on 16
Supply and Marine on 17
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 12 2010 07:20 Mikilatov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 07:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I don't like this assertation that using a scan "costs you 270 minerals". It seems to be the prevalant thought process. Those minerals still exist, and with a fully saturated line, the MULE consists of a smaller percentage of your current income. Advocating blowing all your OC's energy as soon as it hits 50 without fail might seem like the best way to go about things mathematically, but with the increased importance and difficulty of scouting in SC2, it's definitely not the most clever thing one can do. Basically I just want to squash this notion that scan = 270 minerals omg unfair omg i used mule now i cant see dt i cant see attack omg they killed a depot and i need a tank right now but i used used mule, and so on. Yes, the MULE is great, but scan doesn't "cost 270 minerals" Oh for sure. It still puts it into perspective in terms of when a Terran should/wants to use a scan instead of a MULE. For me, personally, my research on the MULE has altered my decision making in terms of this on many occassions. I totally still use the shit out of scan.
Indeed! The MULE is wildly useful, without a doubt. Unless you're competent with scan in that you use it at the correct time and adapt appropriately to the information you get, spamming MULE is better 
Edit: To the poster above me, OC at 16 seems to be the standard 
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Using simple math, we can then determine that the Orbital Command's first MULE will gain the player 90 minerals over 90 seconds. Considering that the Orbital Command set us back ~32 minerals, it is accurate to say that when the first MULE is ONE-THIRD of the way through its lifespan, your economy will be equal to that of an economy without an Orbital Command.
Didn't you say they gather 270 in their 90 second lifespan? It'll actually take them about 1 1/3 trips to make up the 32 minerals.. about 5 seconds.
Well anyway, I appreciate your efforts, but these results only matter in the very very very short term. For the knowledge to be worthwhile, you'd have to analyze the amount of minerals that more early scvs would mine over their entire life span and compare it to the amount of extra minerals from mules that an orbital command gives you over its entire life span, looking at the rate of energy regeneration and how often you can make a mule, etc. Not to mention that mules can mine a patch being mined by an scv, which makes them even more efficient compared to scvs when you reach saturation at a given base.
Maybe if you compared the cost of making 10 extra SCVs before orbital command to the orbital command and then 10 scvs, and get the amount mined over 10 minutes.. or the amount mined during the time it takes to do a certain build. That's when the information would become valuable.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.navone.org/blogger/uploaded_images/wall-e-wave-749751.png)
