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Background
The MULE is of course the awesome macro mechanic for Terrans in Starcraft 2. It's also the name of one of the greatest multiplayer games as all time, so it's quite fitting that the name translates into Starcraft as well. =)
I've played over 500 games with Terran, and I've used the MULE extensively. I've made a lot of assumptions about the MULE, and heard a lot of rumors on its efficiency and its use:
"David Kim gets the MULE at 14/16"
"The MULE is as efficient as 3/6 SCV's"
"MULEs are way better than scans"
Now I'm sure some people have partially figured these things out already, but I've not personally found any definitive answers. I'm not saying they're not out there, but I was especially interested in doing my own research. I'll try my best to explain my methods along the way, and you may feel free to dispute them! I'll do more tests if needed.
PART 1 - MULE VS. SCV
STAGE 1
For this first test, I simply wanted to see what a MULE mines over one lifespan vs. an SCV in the same period of time, with the same mining distances in each case.
The MULE lasts 90 seconds, and it mined 270 minerals.
The SCV mined 90 minerals in 90 seconds.
In one lifespan, it's safe to say a MULE is about 3 times more efficient than an SCV.
STAGE 2
I wasn't convinced, simply because SCV's can't always be on the closest patches, while a MULE certainly can, so let's try this with the SCV's on patches of varying distances:
The MULE mines 270 minerals over one lifespan while on the closest patch, while the 3 SCV's mined between 240 and 255 minerals while placed on patches of varying distances.
This concludes that the MULE is actually slightly more efficient than 3 SCV's.
This also concludes that the use of a scan or supply drop effectively costs the Terran ~250-270 minerals over the course of 90 seconds. (Ouch.)
PART 2 - EFFICIENCY
So when should you get the Orbital Command? I'm not going to pretend to know the definitive answer to this question, however I will try to solve how long it takes for the MULE to become effective.
STAGE 1
Let's look at the facts:
The Orbital Command costs 150 minerals.
A SCV costs 50 minerals.
The Orbital Command takes 35 seconds to complete.
A SCV takes 17 seconds to complete.
A MULE mines around 270 minerals in 90 seconds.
A SCV mines around 90 minerals in 90 seconds.
SCV's cost 1 supply each.
From this you can determine that you can build ~2 SCV's in the time it takes to build an Orbital Command. Let's make a timeline, assuming you could build SCV's and an Orbital Command at the same time:
0:00 - Orbital Command Start
0:00 - SCV #1 Start
0:17 - SCV #1 Finish
0:17 - SCV #2 Start
0:34 - SCV #2 Finish
0:35 - Orbital Command Finish
SCV #1 can mine for 18 seconds before the command finishes, mining an estimated 18 minerals.
SCV #2 can mine for 1 second before the command finishes, mining an estimated 1 mineral.
Yield #1 + Yield #2 - Supply Cost - SCV Cost = Total Cost
(Supply cost is determined as ~18.75 minerals per supply.) (Cost of Depot + Lost Mining Time / 8)
18 Minerals + 1 Mineral - 37.5 - 100 = -118.5 Minerals.
It costs approximately 118.5 minerals to produce 2 SCV's in the time it takes to build an Orbital Command, which costs 150 minerals. Therefore it is 31.5 minerals cheaper (during construction time) to NOT build an Orbital Command.
This determines that it sets your economy back 31.5 minerals when you build the Orbital Command, assuming you'd otherwise be producing SCV's.
STAGE 2
Now that we know how much it 'costs' to build an Orbital Command, we can look back at how much a MULE can mine over the course of ONE lifetime, in comparison to that of the two SCV's which would otherwise be produced.
In one lifetime, we can recall that a MULE mines about 270 minerals. One SCV mines about 90 minerals at maximum in the same period of time, therefore two will mine a maximum of 180 minerals.
Using simple math, we can then determine that the Orbital Command's first MULE will gain the player 90 minerals over 90 seconds. Considering that the Orbital Command set us back ~32 minerals, it is accurate to say that when the first MULE is ONE-THIRD of the way through its lifespan, your economy will be equal to that of an economy without an Orbital Command.
Conclusions
In short, the Orbital Command pays for itself about 30 seconds after completion. This means, to me, that it certainly is an extremely worth early investment, assuming you are not killed within this short period of time.
It is also important to note the hidden pros/cons of the Orbital Command:
-If you choose to get it, you will have 2 less SCV's which have the ability to attack, while a MULE does not.
-MULEs have the same HP as an SCV, so if it is killed or interrupted through harassment, the early Orbital Command will hurt your economy initially to a greater extent.
-The Orbital Command also opens up the gameplay option of scans and supply drops.
-An early Orbital Command can slow or alter an early build order to a huge degree.
-Instantly creating an Orbital Command at an expansion instead of SCV's is, in general, much more efficient.
Let me know if you see any flaws in my math or logic, as I've stated already, I'll be happy to do additional tests.
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very nice effort, stuff like this is what will slowly decrypt the riddle that is SC2
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Cost of depot/8 makes a good assumption of cost per supply, but a depot does not cost 100 minerals.
Rather, it costs 100minerals+(build time)minerals because if SCVs mine 1 mineral/sec, and a depot costs 50 seconds to build, the SCV could have mined 50 minerals in that time, but didn't, thus the whole cost is 150 minerals.
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On March 07 2010 10:11 ghrur wrote:
Cost of depot/8 makes a good assumption of cost per supply, but a depot does not cost 100 minerals.
Rather, it costs 100minerals+(build time)minerals because if SCVs mine 1 mineral/sec, and a depot costs 50 seconds to build, the SCV could have mined 50 minerals in that time, but didn't, thus the whole cost is 150 minerals.
Great point, I'll have to add that =)
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United States4126 Posts
I'm in no way qualified to critique your mathematical analysis, but I'm happy to see the results of it 
It's interesting to know how long the MULE takes to pay for its worth.
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I've modified the calculations to include the cost of lost mining time into the 'supply cost' of the SCV's. If someone would like to check my math on that, it'd be great. =P
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Has anyone tested this, but do depots that have the added supply look any different than other depots when lowered? I find generally you can get away with the Mule if you OC at 15/16, and then save energy for Scan/Supply-blocked with your built up energy.
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On March 07 2010 10:25 Rothbardian wrote:
Has anyone tested this, but do depots that have the added supply look any different than other depots when lowered?
They do.
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In the hidden pro/cons, maybe you should mention the opportunity cost of getting the orbital command - in terms of what you can do with the 150 minerals (like getting a quick second barracks, or something along those lines.)
Great post overall, helps me clarify the usefulness of the mule.
edit:grammar.
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Added a variation of that as well, Comeh. Thanks.
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Very interesting, and carefully done.
Then it's definitely better to build an orbital command at the second expansion immediately. And compared to building two scvs, it's like you're getting one free scv.
So with high yield resources, it's (150-100-supply)+19 x rate, and you recover it at 1 x rate, so it should take 22 seconds on high yield resources. Also, can you save up energy so you can do a multi-mule drop on high yield resources?
I'm also curious about the value of an extra command center, which would be 400 + build time - supply cost, with an income of average mining rate x mineral patches + mule. With a mule you're breaking even in about a minute.
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Does the distance the SCV moves before you put down your supply depot count into the equation, or is it negated by the fact the other races also lose mining time to go to the build location? Terran usually op for the front door seal which is usually a bit farther then what the probe/drone move to plop down their building... Eh... its probably not worth throwing into the equation because then that varies from map to map. Just rambling I guess.
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On March 07 2010 10:51 NET wrote:
Does the distance the SCV moves before you put down your supply depot count into the equation, or is it negated by the fact the other races also lose mining time to go to the build location? Terran usually op for the front door seal which is usually a bit farther then what the probe/drone move to plop down their building... Eh... its probably not worth throwing into the equation because then that varies from map to map. Just rambling I guess.
I thought of this as well, but I figure it's a bit variable and probably doesn't matter enough to equate it. It might amount to maybe 5-10 more minerals for the ENTIRE depot, and not just the 2 supply that are being used, however this would further work IN FAVOR of getting the Orbital Command.
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neat stuff :S
ur format reminds me of my data management isu i did back in January
ohh the horrors >.<
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On March 07 2010 10:40 igotmyown wrote:
Also, can you save up energy so you can do a multi-mule drop on high yield resources?
you can, i cant remember exactly which one it was, but someone did a youtube video commentary, and one of the players put down a CC, then dropped 1 mule onto every high yield mineral patch
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Good shit...makes me want to do one for the queen...but I am a lazy bastard.
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Very nice man anyone who is thinking about getting orbitla command in part with their build will easily decide right here
queen guide by Monday gogo 
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For anyone interested in in-game numbers:
I compared 10sup 12rax 13refinery 15 orbital command to the same build without orbital command. I mined the same amount of gas in both builds (factory at first 100 gas, 2nd refinery at almost the same time--this matters for SCV saturation since I went past 16 SCVs on minerals).
The orbital command started at 2:37.
All times are in-game time.
Time/OC minerals/No OC minerals
4:00/1755/1705
5:00/2435/2285
6:00/3235/2995
Seems evident that the disparity only grows as the game goes on--partly because of saturation, I think--so you should make your OC as soon as you can without cutting SCVs for it to get the most out of it.
One note:
Instantly creating an Orbital Command at an expansion instead of SCV's is, in general, much more efficient.
This is certainly true if you want minerals, but quite untrue if, for instance, you floated it over to an island without SCVs inside and want gas. If you float over with SCVs inside, you should still probably produce 1 SCV before upgrading to an OC if you're mainly looking for gas.
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Time for me to create a ling timing rush on your MULEs
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Excellent ... some real number crunching reasoning.
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On March 07 2010 14:35 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Time for me to create a ling timing rush on your MULEs
Yeah, exactly, this works for players looking to exploit it, too. =)
We're 2-2, we needa play a 5th game sometime =P
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Really good post it cleears a lot of mess out of here
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On March 07 2010 10:59 SarcasticOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 10:40 igotmyown wrote:
Also, can you save up energy so you can do a multi-mule drop on high yield resources? you can, i cant remember exactly which one it was, but someone did a youtube video commentary, and one of the players put down a CC, then dropped 1 mule onto every high yield mineral patch
What's the point of doing this? You'll just float a lot of minerals and won't be able to spend them (you'll lack gas for mostly everything, and will be forced to pump out marines)
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Very nice write up. As a protoss player I wondered the effectiveness the mules really had on the terran economy... Now I know.. They rock...
On a sidenote, Now when I make phoenix's for some gravity harass I'll be sure to target those mules instead of the scv's 
Thanks
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A semi-related thing -- mules mine "over" SCVs, which allows you to choose which expansion they mine at. By putting all your mules at your newest expansion, you can get the same number of minerals while avoiding mining out older expansions, keeping your mineral efficiency higher for a longer period of time. Not sure if this is wide-spread, but it probably should be.
--oberon
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I'm curious... Whats the mining efficiency of mules at high yield???
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Great read and well reasoned .... but why is your title "MULE - Hunting the Wumpus" but you do not refer to the legendary "Hunt the Wumpus", that epic game of cataclysmic stature, the reason I opened this thread in the first place?
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I'm trying to put a youtube compilation of this together, but there's another use MULES have - bombing unsuspecting opponents.
Basically, in Terran vs Terran, dropping MULES on enemy troops/buildings when sieged tanks are nearby results in hilarity. This almost always gets a laugh, though some people have been really upset by it.
You can also do this into a middle of a group of Banelings in TVZ for similar "what" moments.
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On March 07 2010 10:40 igotmyown wrote:
So with high yield resources, it's (150-100-supply)+19 x rate, and you recover it at 1 x rate, so it should take 22 seconds on high yield resources. Also, can you save up energy so you can do a multi-mule drop on high yield resources?
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Well, it might be worth saving energy from an existing command to mule or multi mule on high yield, as this will yield 360 total minerals vs 270 normally (so you have to judge the value of 360 minerals later vs 270 sooner).
On the actual expansion, however, you are probably better off NOT getting the OC until you have the expansion saturated with SCVs.
2 SCVs come out faster, mine just as quickly on high yield minerals, and cost less, so economically there's little advantage to the OC over SCVs
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On March 08 2010 01:34 bITt.mAN wrote:
Great read and well reasoned .... but why is your title "MULE - Hunting the Wumpus" but you do not refer to the legendary "Hunt the Wumpus", that epic game of cataclysmic stature, the reason I opened this thread in the first place?
I figured it'd be a subtle reference that maybe a few people would get. =P Basically, I wanted to 'demystify' the MULE, and I found a relationship between this process and the 'Hunting of the Wumpus' in the 1983 game M.U.L.E.
By the way, if anyone here hasn't played M.U.L.E., get some friends and play that shit, it's the best party-multiplayer game of all time.
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On March 07 2010 10:40 igotmyown wrote:
Very interesting, and carefully done.
Then it's definitely better to build an orbital command at the second expansion immediately. And compared to building two scvs, it's like you're getting one free scv.
So with high yield resources, it's (150-100-supply)+19 x rate, and you recover it at 1 x rate, so it should take 22 seconds on high yield resources. Also, can you save up energy so you can do a multi-mule drop on high yield resources?
I'm also curious about the value of an extra command center, which would be 400 + build time - supply cost, with an income of average mining rate x mineral patches + mule. With a mule you're breaking even in about a minute.
Man I love having fully saturated mineral patches, expanding to a goldbase with 2 ccs capped on energy and then just hailing the mules down. Wow do the minerals come in like gangbusters.
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On March 08 2010 01:14 TheComeback wrote:
I'm curious... Whats the mining efficiency of mules at high yield???
Just did a quick test, and it mines 42 per carry instead of 30. It generated 378 minerals over one lifespan, as opposed to 270 minerals over one lifespan on normal mineral patches.
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On March 08 2010 02:04 Wintermute wrote:
On the actual expansion, however, you are probably better off NOT getting the OC until you have the expansion saturated with SCVs.
How so? You're getting 2 more SCVs if you saturate before getting OC, but you get 1 extra MULE (permanently, basically, since you get 50 energy in just a bit shorter time than the MULE's lifespan) if you OC right away. 1 MULE mines more than 2 SCVs, so you get more minerals by getting the OC first.
Saturating your gas before you get OC makes sense economically since MULEs can't mine gas; saturating minerals does not.
That's um, kind of the point of this topic.
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On March 08 2010 05:18 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2010 02:04 Wintermute wrote:
On the actual expansion, however, you are probably better off NOT getting the OC until you have the expansion saturated with SCVs. How so? You're getting 2 more SCVs if you saturate before getting OC, but you get 1 extra MULE (permanently, basically, since you get 50 energy in just a bit shorter time than the MULE's lifespan) if you OC right away. 1 MULE mines more than 2 SCVs, so you get more minerals by getting the OC first. Saturating your gas before you get OC makes sense economically since MULEs can't mine gas; saturating minerals does not. That's um, kind of the point of this topic.
Sorry, I was operating under some bad data, that SCVs gathered 10 minerals per trip on yellow minerals.
Since the gain is the same for both SCVs and MULEs (40% increase per trip) it still makes sense to go for MULEs first (or, if you need gas badly, immediately after you have saturated your geysers).
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You might also note that calling down supply gives you 100 minerals out of thin air, while the mule mines those minerals from your patch. So you're getting your instant 100 + saving SCV mining time + saving 100 minerals in your patch that you can mine (albeit much later).
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Hunting the wumpus, huh... somebody either played a very old computer game or has read at least some of the standard AI textbook
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On March 07 2010 21:35 brocoli wrote:What's the point of doing this? You'll just float a lot of minerals and won't be able to spend them (you'll lack gas for mostly everything, and will be forced to pump out marines)
More units = better as long as you're not supply blocked
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Osaka27139 Posts
Very cool thread, thanks a lot.
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you know, this makes me wonder if players might tweak builds specifically to harass mules. Since they're (I think) only as tough as an SCV, making a small but mobile harass force against terran specifically to wander around and clean up his mules could be pretty effective.
For zerg- 2-3 mutas plus an overlord way out behind the mineral patches
For toss 2-3 phoenix lifting, plus an observer
for terran 1 or 2 banshees that just fly between expos and snipe mules.
Since each mule knocked off with relative promptness is 200 minerals knocked off, this seems a very, very efficient way to harass- really, if you get one mule and force the opponent to throw up a turret or two next to each mineral patch or keep units there, your little assassination force has paid for itself
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On March 08 2010 08:43 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 21:35 brocoli wrote:What's the point of doing this? You'll just float a lot of minerals and won't be able to spend them (you'll lack gas for mostly everything, and will be forced to pump out marines) More units = better as long as you're not supply blocked
(In reference to: save up energy, call down a ton of MULEs on high-yield minerals)
You won't be able to build all the units for a while though--if you're saving up energy to call down a bunch of MULEs, that means that either you have a lot of idle barracks/factories (which means you wasted money on them earlier) or you're going to shoot up to several thousand minerals as you build production facilities to burn off your new income boost ... which are then going to go idle later on. In either case you've also made your existing army weaker, though if you didn't get punished for that before you call down the MULEs that likely doesn't matter any more.
Getting 5000 minerals all at once is generally not very useful unless you feel like tossing up CCs at every expo on the map or something.
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On March 08 2010 08:59 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
you know, this makes me wonder if players might tweak builds specifically to harass mules. Since they're (I think) only as tough as an SCV, making a small but mobile harass force against terran specifically to wander around and clean up his mules could be pretty effective.
For zerg- 2-3 mutas plus an overlord way out behind the mineral patches
For toss 2-3 phoenix lifting, plus an observer
for terran 1 or 2 banshees that just fly between expos and snipe mules.
Since each mule knocked off with relative promptness is 200 minerals knocked off, this seems a very, very efficient way to harass- really, if you get one mule and force the opponent to throw up a turret or two next to each mineral patch or keep units there, your little assassination force has paid for itself
Oh for sure man, I'd really like to see some sort of Toss or Zerg build which is bent on harassing MULEs early, it'd REALLY punish a Terran getting a 16 or 14 Orbital. I guess the only problem would be getting through the wall-in.
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nice read and lets met think about how i view mules vs comstat... Also, include the opportunity cost of using the minerals at the specific time. I personally have won TvTs on teh basis that people are going orbital command before factory, and it gives me a huge lead imo.
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On March 08 2010 15:01 Gretorp wrote:
nice read and lets met think about how i view mules vs comstat... Also, include the opportunity cost of using the minerals at the specific time. I personally have won TvTs on teh basis that people are going orbital command before factory, and it gives me a huge lead imo.
If you're marine rushing I can understand why. Otherwise Orbital command before factory is standard play.
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i'm banshee rushing, and the 150 affects the timing of the factory.
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On March 09 2010 06:12 Gretorp wrote:
i'm banshee rushing, and the 150 affects the timing of the factory.
You must be getting gas on 6 or 7 or something ridiculous. I'm throwing my factory down at 13 after getting OC. Try looking at your timings.
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I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that, mineral-wise, orbital commands are worth the investment... because they are. I think a more interesting debate concerns the use of scan vs mules.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
I'm thinking continual mid-game lone dark templar/cloaked banshee hit-and-run harass may be viable. Either gaining map control or forcing the Terran to scan which has a measurable opportunity cost of 270 minerals.
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On March 07 2010 14:35 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Time for me to create a ling timing rush on your MULEs
Arent all the maps pretty easily walled before you can get there except scrap and the rush distance before rocks are gone is pretty large on that one. You gotta have banelings in there I think or they can just out repair.
I'm thinking continual mid-game lone dark templar/cloaked banshee hit-and-run harass may be viable. Either gaining map control or forcing the Terran to scan which has a measurable opportunity cost of 270 minerals.
Not sure if that would be too realistic in TvT. Assuming they scout the main with a floating rax like Spor (?) suggested you're going to notice if two ports worth of money is hidden.
I think it will deffinately make getting an early raven more important. I already do get one vs zerg to avoid getting hit by lurker hold 2.0.
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On March 12 2010 06:18 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 14:35 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Time for me to create a ling timing rush on your MULEs Arent all the maps pretty easily walled before you can get there except scrap and the rush distance before rocks are gone is pretty large on that one. You gotta have banelings in there I think or they can just out repair. Show nested quote +I'm thinking continual mid-game lone dark templar/cloaked banshee hit-and-run harass may be viable. Either gaining map control or forcing the Terran to scan which has a measurable opportunity cost of 270 minerals. Not sure if that would be too realistic in TvT. Assuming they scout the main with a floating rax like Spor (?) suggested you're going to notice if two ports worth of money is hidden. I think it will deffinately make getting an early raven more important. I already do get one vs zerg to avoid getting hit by lurker hold 2.0.
Lurker hold???? Do you mean banelings? Lurkers got removed.
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On March 10 2010 09:50 Mente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 06:12 Gretorp wrote:
i'm banshee rushing, and the 150 affects the timing of the factory. You must be getting gas on 6 or 7 or something ridiculous. I'm throwing my factory down at 13 after getting OC. Try looking at your timings.
yeah you go tell gretorp how to play this
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Valhalla18444 Posts
I don't like this assertation that using a scan "costs you 270 minerals". It seems to be the prevalant thought process.
Those minerals still exist, and with a fully saturated line, the MULE consists of a smaller percentage of your current income. Advocating blowing all your OC's energy as soon as it hits 50 without fail might seem like the best way to go about things mathematically, but with the increased importance and difficulty of scouting in SC2, it's definitely not the most clever thing one can do.
Basically I just want to squash this notion that scan = 270 minerals omg unfair omg i used mule now i cant see dt i cant see attack omg they killed a depot and i need a tank right now but i used used mule, and so on. Yes, the MULE is great, but scan doesn't "cost 270 minerals" 
Food for thought: If my opponent uses MULE exclusively, intent on an early-game attack, and I block it with superior information combined with additional resources spent on units rather than depots, is he really making the best decision? Purely hypothetical situation, but it illustrates my point. Further to that, the supply boost is the only mechanic present in the game that fundamentally creates extra resources. It brings the cost of +8 supply from 100 minerals to 0 minerals, increasing the longevity of your mining base and freeing up additional resources for whatever your plans happen to be.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 12 2010 06:56 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 09:50 Mente wrote:On March 09 2010 06:12 Gretorp wrote:
i'm banshee rushing, and the 150 affects the timing of the factory. You must be getting gas on 6 or 7 or something ridiculous. I'm throwing my factory down at 13 after getting OC. Try looking at your timings. yeah you go tell gretorp how to play this
Contribute to the discussion, or don't post. Consider this a warning.
d.Apollo you too! Don't post nothing but images bro!
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On March 07 2010 10:13 Mikilatov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 10:11 ghrur wrote:
Cost of depot/8 makes a good assumption of cost per supply, but a depot does not cost 100 minerals.
Rather, it costs 100minerals+(build time)minerals because if SCVs mine 1 mineral/sec, and a depot costs 50 seconds to build, the SCV could have mined 50 minerals in that time, but didn't, thus the whole cost is 150 minerals. Great point, I'll have to add that =)
dont forget the walking distance lies from 2-8 seconds which u can call it a 5mineral if u want a concrete number :p
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On March 12 2010 07:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I don't like this assertation that using a scan "costs you 270 minerals". It seems to be the prevalant thought process. Those minerals still exist, and with a fully saturated line, the MULE consists of a smaller percentage of your current income. Advocating blowing all your OC's energy as soon as it hits 50 without fail might seem like the best way to go about things mathematically, but with the increased importance and difficulty of scouting in SC2, it's definitely not the most clever thing one can do. Basically I just want to squash this notion that scan = 270 minerals omg unfair omg i used mule now i cant see dt i cant see attack omg they killed a depot and i need a tank right now but i used used mule, and so on. Yes, the MULE is great, but scan doesn't "cost 270 minerals"
Oh for sure. It still puts it into perspective in terms of when a Terran should/wants to use a scan instead of a MULE. For me, personally, my research on the MULE has altered my decision making in terms of this on many occassions. I totally still use the shit out of scan.
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I get my Orbital Command just after I finish my first rax, which is about 16 I think. Goes something like this:
Supply on 9
Barracks on 11/12
Gas on 14-ish
(It should be timed so that you finish an SCV 3-4 secs before rax finishes, you should get 150-160 minerals exactly when rax finishes.)
Orbital on 16
Supply and Marine on 17
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On March 12 2010 07:20 Mikilatov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 07:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I don't like this assertation that using a scan "costs you 270 minerals". It seems to be the prevalant thought process. Those minerals still exist, and with a fully saturated line, the MULE consists of a smaller percentage of your current income. Advocating blowing all your OC's energy as soon as it hits 50 without fail might seem like the best way to go about things mathematically, but with the increased importance and difficulty of scouting in SC2, it's definitely not the most clever thing one can do. Basically I just want to squash this notion that scan = 270 minerals omg unfair omg i used mule now i cant see dt i cant see attack omg they killed a depot and i need a tank right now but i used used mule, and so on. Yes, the MULE is great, but scan doesn't "cost 270 minerals" Oh for sure. It still puts it into perspective in terms of when a Terran should/wants to use a scan instead of a MULE. For me, personally, my research on the MULE has altered my decision making in terms of this on many occassions. I totally still use the shit out of scan.
Indeed! The MULE is wildly useful, without a doubt. Unless you're competent with scan in that you use it at the correct time and adapt appropriately to the information you get, spamming MULE is better
Edit: To the poster above me, OC at 16 seems to be the standard
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Using simple math, we can then determine that the Orbital Command's first MULE will gain the player 90 minerals over 90 seconds. Considering that the Orbital Command set us back ~32 minerals, it is accurate to say that when the first MULE is ONE-THIRD of the way through its lifespan, your economy will be equal to that of an economy without an Orbital Command.
Didn't you say they gather 270 in their 90 second lifespan? It'll actually take them about 1 1/3 trips to make up the 32 minerals.. about 5 seconds.
Well anyway, I appreciate your efforts, but these results only matter in the very very very short term. For the knowledge to be worthwhile, you'd have to analyze the amount of minerals that more early scvs would mine over their entire life span and compare it to the amount of extra minerals from mules that an orbital command gives you over its entire life span, looking at the rate of energy regeneration and how often you can make a mule, etc. Not to mention that mules can mine a patch being mined by an scv, which makes them even more efficient compared to scvs when you reach saturation at a given base.
Maybe if you compared the cost of making 10 extra SCVs before orbital command to the orbital command and then 10 scvs, and get the amount mined over 10 minutes.. or the amount mined during the time it takes to do a certain build. That's when the information would become valuable.
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Actually, it is important for us to consider whether the MULE, while it is mining from a mineral patch, prevents an SCV from mining from the same patch. If this is the case, a fully saturated base with a MULE added to it will only boost your economy by ~180 minerals (270 - 90 for the SCVs no longer using the patch). Since this principle only applies to a fully saturated base, I don't think it will heavily impact the opening analysis you've made (the SCVs will just switch to a nearby patch). But once you reach the middle game, and your mineral patches are fully saturated, a scan will only really cost you ~180 minerals. (Good news for people who like to scan)
To the poster above: It would only be necessary to make those calculations up until the point where the base reached full saturation. As far as I'm aware that's around 18 SCVs on minerals. The time period from beginning to build the new comsat station to reaching full saturation shouldn't be too long, but its length will also vary depending on whether you're taking 1 or 2 gas.
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Update on the cost of the OC: the OC costs 150, minus 100 (2 SCVs you'd build during its construction) minus 25 (SCV supply) plus SCV mining ... plus 2 minerals per second once the OC finishes since you don't have those 2 SCVs (until saturation, when this 2 mineral per second cost decreases).
MULEs effectively mine 3 minerals per second (270 over 90 seconds), so you do clearly come out ahead once you start using MULEs; this is (maybe) where the 30 seconds--the correct amount of time--comes from.
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Great experimenting, sounds like terran should be getting these pretty early on to get an economic lead. Having played a few games with terran on my friends beta account, I haven't gotten a good feel on when to get it, but I tended to get it somewhere between 10-20 supply.
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Alright, so let's talk about supply. The minimum cost of a supply is 150 mins. 100 min for the supply, 50 min for the mining time. Counting additional travel cost, it could be 155-160 min. Calling down supplies gives you the equivalent of 100 min immediately, 55-60 mins over the next 55-60 seconds. A mule gives you 270 mins over 90 seconds, or 180 mins over 60 seconds and 90 mins over the next 30 seconds.
Thus, a mule gives the following over the supply: 120 mins over 60 seconds and 90 mins over the next 30 seconds. In essence, it's a very back-loaded 210 mins over 90 seconds.
The supply gives 100 mins NOW. So the question is: What is the time cost of minerals?
Would you prefer 100 mins instantly vs. 210 mins backloaded over 90 seconds? For an early bio push within the next 60 seconds, I could easily see how you would want the 100 mins immediately (assuming you're production line isn't saturated).
Especially in the early game, I can see the argument as to how 100 minerals now >> 210 mins over 90 seconds. That 100 mins? You can start your expo CC 60 seconds sooner. You could open gas heavy, but still have enough mins for an early fact w/o sacrificing rines and D.
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Calling down supply is actualy creating something that would cost minerals and making it free as well as fortifying a structure. When you use the mule (at main) you just mine faster from minerals you already control. Which means you have to go find new minerals faster. The supply drop is the effective oposite. I feel there is place for all of them in terran play.
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On March 12 2010 21:56 Nivra wrote:
Alright, so let's talk about supply. The minimum cost of a supply is 150 mins. 100 min for the supply, 50 min for the mining time. Counting additional travel cost, it could be 155-160 min. Calling down supplies gives you the equivalent of 100 min immediately, 55-60 mins over the next 55-60 seconds. A mule gives you 270 mins over 90 seconds, or 180 mins over 60 seconds and 90 mins over the next 30 seconds.
Thus, a mule gives the following over the supply: 120 mins over 60 seconds and 90 mins over the next 30 seconds. In essence, it's a very back-loaded 210 mins over 90 seconds.
The supply gives 100 mins NOW. So the question is: What is the time cost of minerals?
Would you prefer 100 mins instantly vs. 210 mins backloaded over 90 seconds? For an early bio push within the next 60 seconds, I could easily see how you would want the 100 mins immediately (assuming you're production line isn't saturated).
Especially in the early game, I can see the argument as to how 100 minerals now >> 210 mins over 90 seconds. That 100 mins? You can start your expo CC 60 seconds sooner. You could open gas heavy, but still have enough mins for an early fact w/o sacrificing rines and D.
Not to mention the fact that you can make up for a missed depot, and also you're not taking away from the minerals which do still exist on your patches and can eventually be mined.
I suppose supply drop isn't so bad after all.
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On March 12 2010 21:56 Nivra wrote:
Especially in the early game, I can see the argument as to how 100 minerals now >> 210 mins over 90 seconds. That 100 mins? You can start your expo CC 60 seconds sooner. You could open gas heavy, but still have enough mins for an early fact w/o sacrificing rines and D.
How did you get to the conclusion that you can start a CC 60 sec sooner? If a SCV mines ~1 min/sec, it will take ~15 SCVs (probably realistic amount for fast expo) ~7-8 sec to get 100 mins, which means that the CC can be started maby max ~10 sec earlier if you use the supply skill.. Which I would argue is not worth it.
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On March 12 2010 07:25 Tartantyco wrote:
I get my Orbital Command just after I finish my first rax, which is about 16 I think. Goes something like this:
Supply on 9
Barracks on 11/12
Gas on 14-ish
(It should be timed so that you finish an SCV 3-4 secs before rax finishes, you should get 150-160 minerals exactly when rax finishes.)
Orbital on 16
Supply and Marine on 17
I do:
supply 10
rax 12
gas 13/14
OC 15 (rax finishes right as the scv is done and I start OC immediately)
TvR isn't a big deal in sc2. I use the same build for every MU! Although I have been changing it a bit after what I have above for TvP. I've realized trying to rush at all vs P isn't that great since sentries just own it.
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And I completely agree with Fakesteve. Even though I'm using terran in sc2 it annoys me when people complain about using a scan "costing" 270 minerals. The intel you can gain is well worth it, and it doesn't matter how many minerals you have if dts are killin your dudes and you don't even have an ebay started.
I've only been dt rushed once though, and dts seem weaker in sc2.
edit:
On March 12 2010 22:06 jabberwokie wrote:
Calling down supply is actualy creating something that would cost minerals and making it free as well as fortifying a structure. When you use the mule (at main) you just mine faster from minerals you already control. Which means you have to go find new minerals faster. The supply drop is the effective oposite. I feel there is place for all of them in terran play.
That's a really good point actually. I'm not sure if I'm going to start using calldown supply instead of the MULE but on maps where securing a 3rd can be hard it's something to think about I suppose.
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On March 13 2010 13:04 Jonoman92 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2010 22:06 jabberwokie wrote:
Calling down supply is actualy creating something that would cost minerals and making it free as well as fortifying a structure. When you use the mule (at main) you just mine faster from minerals you already control. Which means you have to go find new minerals faster. The supply drop is the effective oposite. I feel there is place for all of them in terran play. That's a really good point actually. I'm not sure if I'm going to start using calldown supply instead of the MULE but on maps where securing a 3rd can be hard it's something to think about I suppose.
Am I correct in assuming that you can only use the supply depot skill once on a given depot? If so, the maximum amount of "free" cash (i.e. the cash that won't dissapear from your mineral line) you could get from using that skill is ~1000 (skill used 10 times for 200/200 supply limit). Considering that each mineral stone has 2500 minerals, and that there are ~8 stones in a base, you have 2500*8*2 = 40000 minerals at your desposal before you secure your third.
To get 1000 extra minerals is not very much compared to the ones you have (2.5%), so I would say that mining these 40000 minerals faster (using MULE) is always better, i.e. the supply skill needs a buff in some way.
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Mineral patches usually have 1500 minerals each, not 2500, but 1000 minerals is still paltry compared to 30k.
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they're all investments. Look at it this way.
Call down supply is an instantaneous investment. You get the 100 minerals => supply depot instantly, allowing you to not get supply capped in the event you're macroing and can't keep up or just slip once. It will keep you steady.
The Mule is a mid investment, as it needs 90 seconds to reach its full potential. During those 90 seconds, it is vulnerable, and can die. Also, the money is gathered over at a rate of 3 minerals per second, hence telling you that you are investing in slow +3 minerals per second for 90 seconds.
The scan can be both for short term and long term uses. Getting the right unit composition is rather strong. Intelligence is a very useful thing.
They all serve a purpose and i think it's a very important idea that people shouldn't start prioritizing which is better. I've used all three in my games, and i will tell you that it's all of them are important and detrimental to the new terran.
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On March 12 2010 07:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:I don't like this assertation that using a scan "costs you 270 minerals". It seems to be the prevalant thought process. Those minerals still exist, and with a fully saturated line, the MULE consists of a smaller percentage of your current income. Advocating blowing all your OC's energy as soon as it hits 50 without fail might seem like the best way to go about things mathematically, but with the increased importance and difficulty of scouting in SC2, it's definitely not the most clever thing one can do. Basically I just want to squash this notion that scan = 270 minerals omg unfair omg i used mule now i cant see dt i cant see attack omg they killed a depot and i need a tank right now but i used used mule, and so on. Yes, the MULE is great, but scan doesn't "cost 270 minerals" Food for thought: If my opponent uses MULE exclusively, intent on an early-game attack, and I block it with superior information combined with additional resources spent on units rather than depots, is he really making the best decision? Purely hypothetical situation, but it illustrates my point. Further to that, the supply boost is the only mechanic present in the game that fundamentally creates extra resources. It brings the cost of +8 supply from 100 minerals to 0 minerals, increasing the longevity of your mining base and freeing up additional resources for whatever your plans happen to be.
i agree that going mule isn't always the best choice but the notion that it costs 270 to scan is not flawed at all. yes, i understand that the minerals are still there waiting to be mined some other time but the fact is it's 270 by the end of 30 seconds or so that you don't have in your bank and 270 that you don't have in your bank is 270 you can't spend.
this creates somewhat of an imbalance (as in unequal not "OMG IMBA") early game when you're forced to use it on scan if you can't get an scv in. i think it was a good point brought up in another thread that was closed: the terran macro mechanic is the only one where you are forced between a positive and a negative.
before everyone gets all rowdy about how zerg have to choose what to build and protoss have to choose what to boost let's focus on what was said. positive and negative. aside from the initial cost there's no negative side of injecting larva, you inject a hatchery you get larva. there's no negative side of chronoboosting , you boost something you get it faster. the terran mechanic is the only one where choosing between one or the other you are actually losing out on something else.
in the early game mule is needed to keep up with the other races' macro mechanics. zerg can inject larva and build multiple workers at once, protoss can boost workers faster than normal. terran is the only one who is left building workers 'normally'. the mule helps balance this out but if a terran is forced to scan they lose out. in the mid-late game when mineral lines become saturated the mule becomes optional because now you should be on even ground in terms of economy with the other races. they cant add extra minerals per trip like the mule can and scan becomes more important.
let's delve into this a little deeper. you might be thinking choosing between drones or probes with a macro mechanic is equivalent to choosing between mule and scan but early game it simply is not. the mule can only return a finite amount of minerals within a certain time span, when that time span is over you no longer get more return because the mule disappears. the same cannot be said for zerg or protoss. when you boost a probe or make multiple drones you are increasing mining input by X amount for the remainder of the game and you are getting linear returns on your macro mechanic. it is a lasting factor until you fully saturate your mineral line.
for example: for every 1 scv i build you are boosting and building 2 drones or 2 probes, by the time i build 2 you will have 4, i build 3 you have 6, etc. to balance this out early game blizzard implements the mule which returns a FLAT mineral amount which only introduces a momentary spike in mineral intake equivalent to 3 scvs. if you stop boosting when i stop mule'ing i cannot keep up with your economy. even if you stop boosting but maintain regular probe production and i am still mule'ing i cannot catch up until i am 3 scvs from fully saturating.
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Tbh, if anyone thinks scan isnt worth the so-called 270 minerals, then obviously you should change your priorities. A good scan can net you over 1000s of minerals (lots of banelings burrowed and your army happens to run into it, or you see what your opponent is making so you can counter) or even, basically, win you the game. 270 minerals is just 270 minerals, scan gives something more precious than that: information.
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thanks for the work! i actually often didn't build OC at my expansions this will change now.
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Excellent read and great analysis. thank you!
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Thanks a lot!
The info about the expo was very useful, I've always thought it to be good to get OC as soon as you have maybe 5-6 scvs created, seems i was wrong.
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um, sry guys, but every1 in this entire thread has been operating on significantly warped data: each scv mines 2/3 to 3/4 of a mineral per second, not 1 per second (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources#Minerals). This means that the mule is potentially a good bit better than scvs than you have been estimating, considering this is a 25-33% reduction in the SCV mining rates for your calculations...
User was warned for this post
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On March 07 2010 10:11 ghrur wrote:
Cost of depot/8 makes a good assumption of cost per supply, but a depot does not cost 100 minerals.
Rather, it costs 100minerals+(build time)minerals because if SCVs mine 1 mineral/sec, and a depot costs 50 seconds to build, the SCV could have mined 50 minerals in that time, but didn't, thus the whole cost is 150 minerals.
By this logic, every zerg building is worth thousands of minerals, as a drone loses mining time for the entire duration of the game when it becomes a building.
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 23 2012 00:28 ScoSteSal wrote:
um, sry guys, but every1 in this entire thread has been operating on significantly warped data: each scv mines 2/3 to 3/4 of a mineral per second, not 1 per second (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources#Minerals). This means that the mule is potentially a good bit better than scvs than you have been estimating, considering this is a 25-33% reduction in the SCV mining rates for your calculations...
You do realise this was posted almost 2 years ago, while the game was in beta right? Why would you Necro this thread?
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