EPTTo the poster above: It would only be necessary to make those calculations up until the point where the base reached full saturation. As far as I'm aware that's around 18 SCVs on minerals. The time period from beginning to build the new comsat station to reaching full saturation shouldn't be too long, but its length will also vary depending on whether you're taking 1 or 2 gas.
MULE - Hunting the Wumpus - Page 4
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
To the poster above: It would only be necessary to make those calculations up until the point where the base reached full saturation. As far as I'm aware that's around 18 SCVs on minerals. The time period from beginning to build the new comsat station to reaching full saturation shouldn't be too long, but its length will also vary depending on whether you're taking 1 or 2 gas. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
MULEs effectively mine 3 minerals per second (270 over 90 seconds), so you do clearly come out ahead once you start using MULEs; this is (maybe) where the 30 seconds--the correct amount of time--comes from. | ||
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Fulgrim
United States560 Posts
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Nivra
37 Posts
Thus, a mule gives the following over the supply: 120 mins over 60 seconds and 90 mins over the next 30 seconds. In essence, it's a very back-loaded 210 mins over 90 seconds. The supply gives 100 mins NOW. So the question is: What is the time cost of minerals? Would you prefer 100 mins instantly vs. 210 mins backloaded over 90 seconds? For an early bio push within the next 60 seconds, I could easily see how you would want the 100 mins immediately (assuming you're production line isn't saturated). Especially in the early game, I can see the argument as to how 100 minerals now >> 210 mins over 90 seconds. That 100 mins? You can start your expo CC 60 seconds sooner. You could open gas heavy, but still have enough mins for an early fact w/o sacrificing rines and D. | ||
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jabberwokie
Canada142 Posts
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Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
On March 12 2010 21:56 Nivra wrote: Alright, so let's talk about supply. The minimum cost of a supply is 150 mins. 100 min for the supply, 50 min for the mining time. Counting additional travel cost, it could be 155-160 min. Calling down supplies gives you the equivalent of 100 min immediately, 55-60 mins over the next 55-60 seconds. A mule gives you 270 mins over 90 seconds, or 180 mins over 60 seconds and 90 mins over the next 30 seconds. Thus, a mule gives the following over the supply: 120 mins over 60 seconds and 90 mins over the next 30 seconds. In essence, it's a very back-loaded 210 mins over 90 seconds. The supply gives 100 mins NOW. So the question is: What is the time cost of minerals? Would you prefer 100 mins instantly vs. 210 mins backloaded over 90 seconds? For an early bio push within the next 60 seconds, I could easily see how you would want the 100 mins immediately (assuming you're production line isn't saturated). Especially in the early game, I can see the argument as to how 100 minerals now >> 210 mins over 90 seconds. That 100 mins? You can start your expo CC 60 seconds sooner. You could open gas heavy, but still have enough mins for an early fact w/o sacrificing rines and D. Not to mention the fact that you can make up for a missed depot, and also you're not taking away from the minerals which do still exist on your patches and can eventually be mined. I suppose supply drop isn't so bad after all. | ||
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glassmazarin
Sweden158 Posts
On March 12 2010 21:56 Nivra wrote: Especially in the early game, I can see the argument as to how 100 minerals now >> 210 mins over 90 seconds. That 100 mins? You can start your expo CC 60 seconds sooner. You could open gas heavy, but still have enough mins for an early fact w/o sacrificing rines and D. How did you get to the conclusion that you can start a CC 60 sec sooner? If a SCV mines ~1 min/sec, it will take ~15 SCVs (probably realistic amount for fast expo) ~7-8 sec to get 100 mins, which means that the CC can be started maby max ~10 sec earlier if you use the supply skill.. Which I would argue is not worth it. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On March 12 2010 07:25 Tartantyco wrote: I get my Orbital Command just after I finish my first rax, which is about 16 I think. Goes something like this: Supply on 9 Barracks on 11/12 Gas on 14-ish (It should be timed so that you finish an SCV 3-4 secs before rax finishes, you should get 150-160 minerals exactly when rax finishes.) Orbital on 16 Supply and Marine on 17 I do: supply 10 rax 12 gas 13/14 OC 15 (rax finishes right as the scv is done and I start OC immediately) TvR isn't a big deal in sc2. I use the same build for every MU! Although I have been changing it a bit after what I have above for TvP. I've realized trying to rush at all vs P isn't that great since sentries just own it. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
I've only been dt rushed once though, and dts seem weaker in sc2. edit: On March 12 2010 22:06 jabberwokie wrote: Calling down supply is actualy creating something that would cost minerals and making it free as well as fortifying a structure. When you use the mule (at main) you just mine faster from minerals you already control. Which means you have to go find new minerals faster. The supply drop is the effective oposite. I feel there is place for all of them in terran play. That's a really good point actually. I'm not sure if I'm going to start using calldown supply instead of the MULE but on maps where securing a 3rd can be hard it's something to think about I suppose. | ||
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glassmazarin
Sweden158 Posts
On March 13 2010 13:04 Jonoman92 wrote: That's a really good point actually. I'm not sure if I'm going to start using calldown supply instead of the MULE but on maps where securing a 3rd can be hard it's something to think about I suppose. Am I correct in assuming that you can only use the supply depot skill once on a given depot? If so, the maximum amount of "free" cash (i.e. the cash that won't dissapear from your mineral line) you could get from using that skill is ~1000 (skill used 10 times for 200/200 supply limit). Considering that each mineral stone has 2500 minerals, and that there are ~8 stones in a base, you have 2500*8*2 = 40000 minerals at your desposal before you secure your third. To get 1000 extra minerals is not very much compared to the ones you have (2.5%), so I would say that mining these 40000 minerals faster (using MULE) is always better, i.e. the supply skill needs a buff in some way. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
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Gretorp
United States586 Posts
Call down supply is an instantaneous investment. You get the 100 minerals => supply depot instantly, allowing you to not get supply capped in the event you're macroing and can't keep up or just slip once. It will keep you steady. The Mule is a mid investment, as it needs 90 seconds to reach its full potential. During those 90 seconds, it is vulnerable, and can die. Also, the money is gathered over at a rate of 3 minerals per second, hence telling you that you are investing in slow +3 minerals per second for 90 seconds. The scan can be both for short term and long term uses. Getting the right unit composition is rather strong. Intelligence is a very useful thing. They all serve a purpose and i think it's a very important idea that people shouldn't start prioritizing which is better. I've used all three in my games, and i will tell you that it's all of them are important and detrimental to the new terran. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On March 12 2010 07:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I don't like this assertation that using a scan "costs you 270 minerals". It seems to be the prevalant thought process. Those minerals still exist, and with a fully saturated line, the MULE consists of a smaller percentage of your current income. Advocating blowing all your OC's energy as soon as it hits 50 without fail might seem like the best way to go about things mathematically, but with the increased importance and difficulty of scouting in SC2, it's definitely not the most clever thing one can do. Basically I just want to squash this notion that scan = 270 minerals omg unfair omg i used mule now i cant see dt i cant see attack omg they killed a depot and i need a tank right now but i used used mule, and so on. Yes, the MULE is great, but scan doesn't "cost 270 minerals"  Food for thought: If my opponent uses MULE exclusively, intent on an early-game attack, and I block it with superior information combined with additional resources spent on units rather than depots, is he really making the best decision? Purely hypothetical situation, but it illustrates my point. Further to that, the supply boost is the only mechanic present in the game that fundamentally creates extra resources. It brings the cost of +8 supply from 100 minerals to 0 minerals, increasing the longevity of your mining base and freeing up additional resources for whatever your plans happen to be. i agree that going mule isn't always the best choice but the notion that it costs 270 to scan is not flawed at all. yes, i understand that the minerals are still there waiting to be mined some other time but the fact is it's 270 by the end of 30 seconds or so that you don't have in your bank and 270 that you don't have in your bank is 270 you can't spend. this creates somewhat of an imbalance (as in unequal not "OMG IMBA") early game when you're forced to use it on scan if you can't get an scv in. i think it was a good point brought up in another thread that was closed: the terran macro mechanic is the only one where you are forced between a positive and a negative. before everyone gets all rowdy about how zerg have to choose what to build and protoss have to choose what to boost let's focus on what was said. positive and negative. aside from the initial cost there's no negative side of injecting larva, you inject a hatchery you get larva. there's no negative side of chronoboosting , you boost something you get it faster. the terran mechanic is the only one where choosing between one or the other you are actually losing out on something else. in the early game mule is needed to keep up with the other races' macro mechanics. zerg can inject larva and build multiple workers at once, protoss can boost workers faster than normal. terran is the only one who is left building workers 'normally'. the mule helps balance this out but if a terran is forced to scan they lose out. in the mid-late game when mineral lines become saturated the mule becomes optional because now you should be on even ground in terms of economy with the other races. they cant add extra minerals per trip like the mule can and scan becomes more important. let's delve into this a little deeper. you might be thinking choosing between drones or probes with a macro mechanic is equivalent to choosing between mule and scan but early game it simply is not. the mule can only return a finite amount of minerals within a certain time span, when that time span is over you no longer get more return because the mule disappears. the same cannot be said for zerg or protoss. when you boost a probe or make multiple drones you are increasing mining input by X amount for the remainder of the game and you are getting linear returns on your macro mechanic. it is a lasting factor until you fully saturate your mineral line. for example: for every 1 scv i build you are boosting and building 2 drones or 2 probes, by the time i build 2 you will have 4, i build 3 you have 6, etc. to balance this out early game blizzard implements the mule which returns a FLAT mineral amount which only introduces a momentary spike in mineral intake equivalent to 3 scvs. if you stop boosting when i stop mule'ing i cannot keep up with your economy. even if you stop boosting but maintain regular probe production and i am still mule'ing i cannot catch up until i am 3 scvs from fully saturating. | ||
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Koffiegast
Netherlands346 Posts
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Yasser
Germany27 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3363 Posts
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JamesLame
Sweden25 Posts
The info about the expo was very useful, I've always thought it to be good to get OC as soon as you have maybe 5-6 scvs created, seems i was wrong.  | ||
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ScoSteSal
United States54 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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sexyandiknowit
United States18 Posts
On March 07 2010 10:11 ghrur wrote: Cost of depot/8 makes a good assumption of cost per supply, but a depot does not cost 100 minerals. Rather, it costs 100minerals+(build time)minerals because if SCVs mine 1 mineral/sec, and a depot costs 50 seconds to build, the SCV could have mined 50 minerals in that time, but didn't, thus the whole cost is 150 minerals. By this logic, every zerg building is worth thousands of minerals, as a drone loses mining time for the entire duration of the game when it becomes a building. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On May 23 2012 00:28 ScoSteSal wrote: um, sry guys, but every1 in this entire thread has been operating on significantly warped data: each scv mines 2/3 to 3/4 of a mineral per second, not 1 per second (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources#Minerals). This means that the mule is potentially a good bit better than scvs than you have been estimating, considering this is a 25-33% reduction in the SCV mining rates for your calculations... You do realise this was posted almost 2 years ago, while the game was in beta right? Why would you Necro this thread? | ||
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