|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Hello there everyone. I am here today to convince you that Protoss should be walling in in both PvP and PvZ (PvT I don't like wall ins because of reapers!). But first up, what are my credentials? Well, I'm a Pt level protoss, division 6 with a record 56-33 and elo 1112. It's not great, but it's good enough for me to know what I'm talking about. I also play SC2 off of a REALLY slow computer, I can only just run the game with everything on low and portraits turned off. That means I can't macro or micro properly most of the time due to insane comp lag which is a real pain D: Anyway, onto the guide
Firstly, why should you wall in? Well, I do a lot of tech heavy builds. That means fast cycores and skimping on Zealots early on. One thing that really annoys me about sc2 is that
a) you need three (or more) zealots to wall a ramp
b) autosurrounding lings kick zealots asses
Hence, I came to the conclusion that the safest way to tech is by doing a wall in. Thanks to some model improvements, buildings wall off nearly perfectly thus you can create a 1 square gap where all your units can leave, but lings can only file in single file (or at most, 2 at a time). This turns swarms of zerlings into a manageable task without wasting force fields.
Here is an example of the basic wall in:
There is one zealot under that tree and nothing gets in or out unless that zealot moves or dies. Don't beleive me that it works? Well...
Those lings can't get in, and they start to glitch. They can't attack my zealot more than 2 at a time AND my sentry can just pick them off ezpz (and force field the choke if my zealot happens to die while I chrono in another one). You'll be surprised at how hard lings and stuff glitch up against a wall in - it's the first major example of SC2 AI being really really stupid due to its build in autosurround/autotarget on melee units.
How do you wall in? Simple.You can wall in the any combination of Gate-Core-Forge - you just need two buildings!!
Step 1)
Put your pylon at your ramp. I like to place it as shown: with the pylon power just hitting the top of the ramp (less likely to be sniped this way). However, as long as it is close to the ramp the actual position doesn't matter too much.
Step 2)
Place your gateway as shown. It should be ONE square up from the bottom and right on the edge of the ramp. To repeat myself - thats as close to the ramp you can get and one square up from as far bottom as you can go. On other positions, the gateway should go where the zealots will pop on the inside, that could be in this position or in the one about to follow...
Step 3)
Place your cybernetics core here (or 2nd gateway if you are rushing). It should be as close to the ramp as you can and to the left as far as you can go. There is NO space next to this building. It should fit snuggly against your gateway and they should just be side by side.
Step 4)
Viola! That's a ling proof wall right there :D. Place a zealot where the probe is and you are done!
Just knowing how to wall can save your bacon. Against very fast pool rushes, cleverly placed dual gates can stop that rush dead in it's tracks! At the bottom of this post there is a replay where that happens (although I end up losing stupidly). Yes, the Protoss wall in is highly effective against all forms of early zerg aggression (if coupled with a quick immortal!).
There's nothing those lings can do except bug out - I didn't lose anything defending
Wallins don't have to just be for PvZ - they can be expanded to team play as well. The wallin can be a good stall against a mass of melee units (i.e. a pz team and the like). This can be see in this wall on Metalopolis when I went for a Void Ray rush and Kennigit died on me.
Thats a scary armySuccessfully stalled for Void Ray and Cannon!Note: my zealot was actually a little too forward D:
Furthermore, this has applications to PvP as well. With a nice tight wall in you can tech safely and there's nothing they can do about it. Mass zealots simply cannot break through if you have a Sentry and a Stalker or two on the way.
My DT Rush PvP - he counters but can't break the wallNope! 2 gate can't get in!
So there you have it people! Wall ins are great at bugging melee AI and they remove the problem of 3 zeal to block a ramp. I really hope more Protoss start to employ this in their game as I beleive it is the best way to tech safely in both PvZ and PvP - you will NEVER die to early game aggression with a wall in and proper scouting!!
Here are some replays of the wall in in action. Now they aren't the best reps, I die to some pretty dumb stuff in some of them. But in all of them, the wall works and that's the point of the replay. It shows that the wall can save you from early game aggression (but not from midgame stupidity!) I don't profess for these opponents to be top tier either - but again, the point remains that the wall in doesn't depend that much on skill to be effective, its a fucking wall after all - it has no feelings, emotions, or sense of skill.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/Wall1.sc2replay
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/Wall2_doh.sc2replay (this is the quick pool game, I move out to attack him with zeals and he counters me doh)
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/Wall3.sc2replay
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/Wall4.sc2replay
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/Wall5.sc2replay
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/Wall6.sc2replay
I hope you enjoyed this guide, and I hope it makes for safer teching for every Protoss out there.
|
Loving the pictures, that's a really great guide.
Another thing you could've mentioned is that if you need to wall-off completely you can always wait til warp tech and just warp-in units on the other side of the wall.
|
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 24 2010 08:12 Klive5ive wrote:
Loving the pictures, that's a really great guide.
Another thing you could've mentioned is that if you need to wall-off completely you can always wait til warp tech and just warp-in units on the other side of the wall.
True, but you'd need a third building to wall off completely on most maps. Some you can do it with two - like desert oasis (but I wouldn't want to wall off completely there anyway). Although I prefer having that gap so you can come out and attack and pressure as you need to.
On February 24 2010 08:13 Kennigit wrote:
Wtf i didn't die!
You almost did D:
|
I agree about the wall-ins. I've haven't used them much yet, but I do think optimal play involves copious wall-in usage in both of those match-ups. The only concern I have about them is how they can be abused by enemy ranged units [I'm thinking roaches in particular, but also stalkers/sentries/immortals to a lesser extent.]
In terms of most ramps requiring 3 zealots to block off...that's really nothing to be angry about. This is a new game [albeit one that draws heavily from the original] and we should expect many of the fundamental 'rules' we learned in SC1 to change. While ramps are now harder to hold, we also have new tools at our disposal: a much wider variety of buildings [including pylons!] now block pathing in a way they didn't in SC1. You showed this nicely in your post.
|
Fuck yeah been waiting for some good PvP wall in replays. <3 yah Plexa 
|
so many walls where are the walls for zerg zerg the maps don't like zerg to wall ramps so far so big
eh it's not perfect drone drilling is fun.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 24 2010 08:23 Pillars wrote:
I agree about the wall-ins. I've haven't used them much yet, but I do think optimal play involves copious wall-in usage in both of those match-ups. The only concern I have about them is how they can be abused by enemy ranged units [I'm thinking roaches in particular, but also stalkers/sentries/immortals to a lesser extent.] I've been worried about Roaches but thus far I haven't had any trouble =/ That might be because I tech Immortal very very quickly which keeps me safe. I think the high ground really helps keep it safe as well - given they don't have a lord flying around.
On February 24 2010 08:23 Virtue wrote:
so many walls where are the walls for zerg zerg the maps don't like zerg to wall ramps so far so big
eh it's not perfect drone drilling is fun. I'm yet to see a Zerg try and drone drill. It's too much of a risk when I just just plop down a forcefield and make your drones look silly =/
|
Oo that's an interesting strat.
On starting locations where your choke faces upwards, do you think it would be a good strategy to completely wall off, use warp gates to spawn units outside, and build your robotics at your natural, or just offcliff? That way you can fast tech.
|
On February 24 2010 08:26 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2010 08:23 Pillars wrote:
I agree about the wall-ins. I've haven't used them much yet, but I do think optimal play involves copious wall-in usage in both of those match-ups. The only concern I have about them is how they can be abused by enemy ranged units [I'm thinking roaches in particular, but also stalkers/sentries/immortals to a lesser extent.] I've been worried about Roaches but thus far I haven't had any trouble =/ That might be because I tech Immortal very very quickly which keeps me safe. I think the high ground really helps keep it safe as well - given they don't have a lord flying around.
Yeah, I'm less concerned about roaches if you're teching quickly to Immortals. A bit more concerned about it if you're teching to Void Rays off of 1 gateway as I think there's a small window there where Zerg can punish you. I guess I'm just generally voicing a concern about the fact that your wall-in can essentially be used against you if both you and your opponent are going ranged units but he's producting 2x the low tier units you are. Another change from SC1 to SC2 [unless this has changed in the past year during development] is that there is no longer a 'miss percentage' when firing uphill...again, making it easier to break a wall-in with ranged troops from below.
|
United States988 Posts
the cybernetics core looks so hideous -_-. cool wallins though
|
Pillars your correct on the miss percentage.
I like the wall ins. I've been experimenting with them myself and have done semi tight walls but now I think I'll do ultra tight walls to negate early speedling rushes
|
I don't think that roaches will be any threat to a wall in at all in this version. range 3. Cannons range 7, and sentries range 5, stalkers 6?
If you place your cannon right, it means that as soon as a roach moves into range to hit your buildings, the cannon has range on him (range 7). But if the roach moves right up to the building, he should still be out of range of the cannon (moved in 3, now at 4 range). Even if you do it wrong, and get a couple guys in range, he still likely won't be able to get enough pressure to focus down your cannon with any reliability. And roaches are not good damage versus buildings. Plus, the range diference means you could, with a little microing, get a ton of damage out of a stalker or two, and the sentry can protect against lings, though due to fragility, range, and continuous damage rather than burst, microing versus the roaches would be tough.
Plus, this would let you get use out of your sentries without having to worry about them getting focused down. And if he DOES focus a building, you can just force field to buy even more time, by which time I suspect casualties would have peeled him off.
I am more wondering how practical baneling breaks are versus buildings, but I don't have the beta so I don't have a chance to test yet. Because without banelings, it seems to me like zerg tier 1 is just hopeless against a proper wall. Even if he tries to focus your zealot to run in lings, you can still just force field your entrance.
p.s.: all stats pulled from http://www.sc2armory.com.
|
In say, this picture here
What if the lings focused on the Core? Would they be able to down it before you killed them?
|
On February 24 2010 14:07 pat965 wrote:In say, this picture here What if the lings focused on the Core? Would they be able to down it before you killed them?
you'd get stalkers behind the zealots to hold off larger groups of lings... it's just like a toss gate wall in sc1 a few zealots rest are goons
|
and what to do when u need to exit with ur troop? destroy ur buildings?
|
No, there's a gap where exactly one unit can fit in.
Also, if you DID completely wall off, upgrade to Warpgates and warp them outside of the wall. Or just grab a Warp Prism and transfer them over.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 24 2010 08:59 Chairman Ray wrote:
Oo that's an interesting strat.
On starting locations where your choke faces upwards, do you think it would be a good strategy to completely wall off, use warp gates to spawn units outside, and build your robotics at your natural, or just offcliff? That way you can fast tech. No just place your gate differently and so that the zealots will pop out on the "good" side of the wall 
On February 24 2010 14:07 pat965 wrote:In say, this picture here What if the lings focused on the Core? Would they be able to down it before you killed them? I think the AI will bug them out a bit, thus making them attack everything. Also if it gets too damaged you can just forcefield to keep it alive for a bit longer. Zerglings take ages to kill buildings now anyway
|
On February 24 2010 14:55 LuDwig- wrote:
and what to do when u need to exit with ur troop? destroy ur buildings?
move the zealot at the choke and walk out?
|
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Thanks for the guide, Plexa! I'll be back to visit these beautiful pictures again after I get SC2 
|
This is good stuff. You can beat triple gate with this if you make stalkers aggressively. And once you fend off their zealots, you have a good chance to win once you get a few Collosi
|
Thanks for the guide, protoss really seems fun so far ^o^
|
The only issue I've found with tight walls like this is that it works both ways - I've had games where a protoss opponent will come in with some stalkers and a sentry, forcefield the choke so I can't get out to attack them, and just destroy my buildings while I sit back trying to figure out the least embarrassing time to gg.
|
Thanks for the awesome guide. Now to waiting to 4-6 months to use it. :D (note the happy face is sarcastic and is really sad)
|
I have noticed that not all units can move through 1x1 square... the only thing I noticed though was archons that take 2x2
|
I believe Colossus also can't fit through a 1x1 square, but that's not really a big deal as long as you've got some cliffs nearby
|
I'd like to see what plexa says to i see that i decide to go mass banelings killing your gates and your core and pylons.
Great thing about banelings is they can come out easily enough to break walls so zerg isn't left in the dark about what's going on.
Never done it to a protoss but i've broken plenty of terran walls with banelings.
|
yeah. would be really interesting to see how the timings work for a baneling break, and how much it weakens a roach rush to use banelings to break, with force fields to either buy time, shore up the wall, or narrow the ramp and give the stalkers/cannon/sentry a chance to work.
really, losing either a core, a forge, or a gateway isn't likely to be the end of the world, given how cheap the core is now, and how it would take, from what I can make out, at least a dozen banelings(and then focus down the last few hit points with your roaches), and that's an extra 350 gas.
Might be that you can just lose your gateway, force field the ramp, and throw up another gateway/core. It's not like they cost nearly as much as the 300 minerals/300 gas you would need in banelings to take them out.
I really need to get amazingly lucky with the next wave of beta keys.
|
Nice wallins Plexa!!
Make sure to read these when I actually get to play the game~
|
Very nice! I will be walling way more often now.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 24 2010 16:58 timmins wrote:
yeah. would be really interesting to see how the timings work for a baneling break, and how much it weakens a roach rush to use banelings to break, with force fields to either buy time, shore up the wall, or narrow the ramp and give the stalkers/cannon/sentry a chance to work.
really, losing either a core, a forge, or a gateway isn't likely to be the end of the world, given how cheap the core is now, and how it would take, from what I can make out, at least a dozen banelings(and then focus down the last few hit points with your roaches), and that's an extra 350 gas.
Might be that you can just lose your gateway, force field the ramp, and throw up another gateway/core. It's not like they cost nearly as much as the 300 minerals/300 gas you would need in banelings to take them out.
I really need to get amazingly lucky with the next wave of beta keys.
People never baneling rush Protoss. Why? I have no idea. They always build either Roach or Ling/Muta. I don't know what I'd do against speedling/baneling? Maybe add some cannons lol
|
I do believe that wallins are almost essential in some way (whether at ramp or around your nexus or whatever it may be) in pvp and pvz.
The fact is that if you want to tech vs zerg you're going to have to deal with the annoyance of lings, and it's really hard to keep a probe alive for any amount of time at all in a zerg base once the pool is up. Basically you'll know if it's some 1 hatch lair or 1 hatch roach build but that's all the info you get. Wallins reduce the number of units needed to be safe which means less risk falling behind to greedy openings and less risk dying to aggressive ones.
The same goes for pvp, since whoever stops making zealots first has a serious problem (or if you decide for some reason not to get any).
|
Lol annoyance of lings being able to break walls and go in with a few speed lings to rape econ has won me so many games where people give gg right there.
Banelings works well on zealots don't need to necessarily use them on the buildings. 2-4 banelines to break up the zealot block works well.
Also i think you can turn on the building grid as a fuction although i would think that would be annoying to see lines all the time. or maybe it's just when you want to build something.
|
Wow this is very cool. Definitely has the potential to mix things up quite a bit. Thanks for the guide!
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Just played a 2v2 where my wall in saved my life yet again lol. Forcefield + a few immortals can hold off almost infinite roaches hehe - he even tried to kill my cycore but just couldn't kill it in time before all his roaches died.
|
This strategy works very well against all-in zealots in PvP. You can get quick stalkers and quick blink, blink outside your wall and own the zealots with blink before they get charge.
well, if you are planning to tech up, i don't see why you should'nt wall up.
|
Thanks for the guide Plexa it is really nice knowing how to properly wall now! Just wanted to add that archons cant fit through the 1x1 opening so just be sure to morph the templar on the correct side of the wall.
|
great to see Pillars posting in TL : )
|
Can you get Immortals (and other bigger units) out of your one unit wide gap?
|
On April 13 2010 11:41 Jeff100 wrote:
Can you get Immortals (and other bigger units) out of your one unit wide gap?
yeah, you can, i might be adding to this guide tonight plexa(if you want to edit the op, otherwise i'll make my own) for maps like blistering sands and lost temple where 10-gate pressure into nexus and forge is really strong. There's some really, really nice sim cities which allow either 1 unit gaps on temple or complete wall-off on blistering that is actually really safe against pressure when u abuse the 7 range cannon vs 3 range roach idea.
|
I find wallins very useful when my opponent 3 warpgate rushes, and i only go 2 gate.
|
I actually did this semi-accidentally the other day. I realize he was going to rush with some speedlings and I was like "fuck fuck fuck I am fucked" and put up a gateway in precisely the right spot to create a 1 zealot hole. Plugged it up with 2-3 zealots and watched the lings squirm. Saved my ass it did!
|
I thought everyone walled off now days? lol?
Especially vs zerg.
|
On April 13 2010 13:15 Legendary- wrote:
I thought everyone walled off now days? lol?
Especially vs zerg.
This. I hadn't considered not walling vs. anyting but T since i started playing the beta, but i guess it is good to make public for the newbs out there =).
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 13 2010 11:53 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2010 11:41 Jeff100 wrote:
Can you get Immortals (and other bigger units) out of your one unit wide gap? yeah, you can, i might be adding to this guide tonight plexa(if you want to edit the op, otherwise i'll make my own) for maps like blistering sands and lost temple where 10-gate pressure into nexus and forge is really strong. There's some really, really nice sim cities which allow either 1 unit gaps on temple or complete wall-off on blistering that is actually really safe against pressure when u abuse the 7 range cannon vs 3 range roach idea.
I'll happily edit them in since the guide is a *bit* outdated
|
Any wall in guides for the new map pool?
|
|
|
i can see why in pvz to do it, but in pvp your buildings would be sniped pretty easily
|
On August 19 2011 01:37 Plutonik wrote:
i can see why in pvz to do it, but in pvp your buildings would be sniped pretty easily
Note that this thread is over a year old. People don't wall off in pvp anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/kulaslingtight.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/kulas1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/wall1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/wall2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/wall3.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/wall4.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/lotem.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/metalopolis1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/metalopolis2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/pvpdesert.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/steppes.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/SC2_Wallin/kulas1.jpg)
