Work In Progress Melee Maps - Page 149

Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin

JaredStarr

Canada115 Posts

January 26 2015 23:45 GMT

#2961

That's the best thing I can think of doing too. Probably have both sides ramp down to it. Got some pretty cool ideas already on how I'm going to do it, I'll upload pics as soon as I get around to it.

JaredStarr

Canada115 Posts

January 27 2015 04:20 GMT

#2962

Bleh. Not too happy with it atm, feel like it still stretches the player a little thin. I want to pull the base closer but it makes the base really awkward in proportion to the ramp placements and passing through the base with large numbers or units.

The area behind the mineral line will be unpathable, probably going to put some kinda Egyptian looking ruin there.

[image loading]

Edit: Updated pic for small edits. Feeling better about it.

TheSkunk

82 Posts

January 27 2015 15:51 GMT

#2963

Just getting in to map making and would love some feedback on this map concept (Phaethon Oasis)

Overview:
[image loading]

More Images:

+ Show Spoiler +

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

January 27 2015 15:54 GMT

#2964

Mr. Skunk: Looks nice. I'm not sure how easily Protoss can FFE but that should be fine. More importantly, I'm worried about the watchtower next to the main. It seems like the attacker can abuse this quite a lot. Definitely an improvement over your previous maps though :D

OtherWorld

France17333 Posts

January 27 2015 16:02 GMT

#2965

General proportions are good. Layout is standard but solid, the gold bases in the middle are a nice touch but could suffer from the "winner wins more" syndrom. I dislike the positioning of the main's ramp, the Xel'Naga near bases and protoss geysers over natural textures. I'd suggest you put an overlord pod near the natural's ramp too. I think you could reduce the dead space between the horizontal third's low ground access and the corner bases.

TheSkunk

82 Posts

January 27 2015 16:08 GMT

#2966

On January 28 2015 00:54 The_Templar wrote:
Mr. Skunk: Looks nice. I'm not sure how easily Protoss can FFE but that should be fine. More importantly, I'm worried about the watchtower next to the main. It seems like the attacker can abuse this quite a lot. Definitely an improvement over your previous maps though :D

The watch tower is definitely a risky concept, but its very unique so I wanted to give it a try.

Do you think there are any major concerns with it aside from Blink and Siege Tanks? It's close to the natural ramp and there is plenty of high-ground space to deny the opponent from taking it from the high ground. The idea was that at the early stages of the game you probably couldn't deny them from taking it, but later on (around when blink or a 1-base tank play would hit) the aforementioned factors would keep it from being abused. Obviously it could still be used for such attacks, but not to the point it broke the map.

The Protoss can wall the natural with 1 forge, 1 gate, 1 core, 1 pylon -- I don't think its unreasonable?

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

January 27 2015 16:10 GMT

#2967

On January 28 2015 01:08 TheSkunk wrote:

Show nested quote +

I wasn't sure about the FFE, it's hard to tell from the overview.

I think contains in general will just be really easy with the watchtower, and blink being imbalanced is reeeeally important.

TheSkunk

82 Posts

January 27 2015 16:18 GMT

#2968

protoss geysers over natural textures.

..oops, mistake.

I'd suggest you put an overlord pod near the natural's ramp too.

Good idea.

I think you could reduce the dead space between the horizontal third's low ground access and the corner bases.

Not sure I properly understand what you are suggesting -- I move both third choices closer to the natural? Perhaps a quick MS paint would help me visualize it.

I think contains in general will just be really easy with the watchtower, and blink being imbalanced is reeeeally important.

Is it really going to be too strong for that, though? The bunker can shoot at about where the stalker is at that picture. The Terran can potentially take the watch tower himself to actually scout the stalker movements. The Terran can also (potentially) use the watch tower at the enemies base to help him scout if the Protoss is going blink or not so he doesn't have to scout or not.

I'm not arguing that isn't too strong because I figured the concept would be kind of broken, but I would like second opinions.

OtherWorld

France17333 Posts

January 27 2015 16:29 GMT

#2969

I meant this (red arrow) :
[image loading]

Basically the blues paths leading to the corner bases could be a bit more open. To do that reduce the dead space by making the part with green dot pathable terrain. It's not a necessity ofc, but right now the corner bases feel a bit cut apart from the rest of the map.

TheSkunk

82 Posts

January 27 2015 16:33 GMT

#2970

Oh right, that makes sense. I had been considering that but hadn't made up my mind yet.

the gold bases in the middle are a nice touch but could suffer from the "winner wins more" syndrome

This is a fair point, but I'm curious as how I'd address it (aside from making it non-gold) or is it simply because bases in the middle of the map will always kind of suffer that?

Thanks for the feedback both of you, been very helpful so far.

OtherWorld

France17333 Posts

January 27 2015 17:20 GMT

#2971

On January 28 2015 01:33 TheSkunk wrote:
Oh right, that makes sense. I had been considering that but hadn't made up my mind yet.

Show nested quote +

Well tbh I used "could" because I have no personal opinion on that. I mean I still have to see a game where center bases played that role in an excessive manner.

Xenotolerance

United States464 Posts

January 27 2015 19:32 GMT

#2972

The watchtower just gives attackers a huge advantage, you have to consider things beyond blink PvT. Siege push TvZ, blink all-in PvP, and consider what it means that players can scout 3 of the first 4 geysers from outside the natural. It's broken, sorry to say (because it's fucken cool).

TheSkunk

82 Posts

January 27 2015 20:51 GMT

#2973

On January 28 2015 04:32 Xenotolerance wrote:
The watchtower just gives attackers a huge advantage, you have to consider things beyond blink PvT. Siege push TvZ, blink all-in PvP, and consider what it means that players can scout 3 of the first 4 geysers from outside the natural. It's broken, sorry to say (because it's fucken cool).

Thanks for your feedback. Do you think the map has any merit with the watch tower removed? It was supposed to be fairly standard, but is it a good fairly standard map?

I did consider it in all situations, not just blink PvT. The idea was that due to how close it is to the main ramp and the cliffs overhanging it, the defender should be able to easily control the watch tower from the high-ground initially and before long, from the low-ground.

Once the defender has a few units he should have control of the watch tower by default. By having control of the watch tower, the defender should be able to see an attack soon enough to have time to prepare for it, and prevent your opponent from setting up there (in a situation like TvZ tank push, or other similar situations to it) and prepare when an opponent moves to take it. Theoretically the watch tower would be very strong for an attacker, but due to the cliffs surrounding it and proximity to the base, it should be very hard for the attacker to ever take it in the first place past the *very* early stages of the game.

Thats why, despite the severity of being able to scout 3 of the first 4 geysers, I didn't think that would be a big problem. The idea was to encourage more standard openers, however, by the time you'd want to be taking 2nd to 4th geysers you should be able to deny them from taking the watch tower pretty easily enough to still keep how many gases you were on a mystery and allow you to still do some surprising builds.

There would still be ways attackers could utilize it of course, but due to those factors, hopefully not in a game-breaking way.

This, of course, was all just the *theory* and I'm very open (and in fact, expected) that in reality its just completely broken, which is why I initially asked what you thought of the map aside from the watch tower gimmick I attempted.

Xenotolerance

United States464 Posts

January 27 2015 22:54 GMT

#2974

Bear in mind that you also have the main ramp outside the natural choke - and that on standard maps, an early timing will usually push the defender behind their nat wall scrambling to buy time to defend. It's that on top of the watchtower that make it broken. If your army is smaller than your opponents, it won't be enough to defend the tower out in the open, since it's often barely enough to defend from a really strong choke point. For example: this blink stalker PvP where the attacker has a slight army advantage and is forced away by a photon overcharge. On your map as it is, the slightly bigger army straight up wins if they're fighting in the open, and if they are fighting by the natural nexus and overcharge is used, herO could just walk over to the watchtower and blink into the main, and the attack continues - in this example, it probably lets herO advance in 1st over Stats. (There's another example from this morning's proleague in Bravo vs Sorry, but I'm skipping that one for now.) Is this gamebreaking? Sort of, since it pretty much kills defender's advantage, and makes your map super duper aggressive in ways that benefit specific Protoss and Terran strategies over others. In shorter discussions, that is all expressed as 'blink imba, map broken.'

So if you were going to use the watchtower, you'd want to make the natural easier to defend. These things have to be in balance, and it's okay to tilt the balance one way or another, but it's way more subtle than often appears at first, and what seems like a neat gimmick just throws interesting starcraft away. (I continue to run into this lesson myself - please don't think I'm the expert, I just happen to be taking the time to write this out. If Uvantak came in you'd probably get a different, better explanation, with screenshots and cited sources.)

On the whole, I think the map is good. The basic proportions are perfectly fine, ignoring the watchtower-natural entrance-main ramp stuff. There's an interesting choice of 3rds which is my favorite feature of any map, and there's a sufficiently defensible 3rd and 4th to make ZvP playable. There's a good balance of open space and chokes. Nothing else about this map is 'wrong' imo, and I think the other advice you're getting is good. So! You've succeeded in making a mostly standard map that includes a super-strong attack gimmick, and that's worth doing. We all benefit from paying attention to good questions like this, so please don't get discouraged.

Good luck with this map as it develops!

SwedenTheKid

567 Posts

January 28 2015 01:41 GMT

#2975

144x144
New WIP Idea
Still cant seem to make up my mind on were the golds should be. Obviously early development. Thoughts?

LComteVarauG

Australia158 Posts

January 28 2015 03:29 GMT

#2976

On January 28 2015 10:41 SwedenTheKid wrote:

144x144
New WIP Idea
Still cant seem to make up my mind on were the golds should be. Obviously early development. Thoughts?

I like the concept - it looks like it would be quite fun to play. Blink might be a problem on the top side of the mains though I am not an expert.

Kind of looks like the same customized tile-set I used on my map Golden Outpost

. I think that the golds will add a lot to battles in the map, as control over them would mean that the player using them would be at a huge advantage.

Xenotolerance

United States464 Posts

January 28 2015 04:47 GMT

#2977

shwoop

SwedenTheKid

567 Posts

January 28 2015 06:09 GMT

#2978

Texture/theme looks good Xeno^

NinjaDuckBob

184 Posts

January 28 2015 06:58 GMT

#2979

Aesthetics still in the works, would like feedback on the design though.

[image loading]

Additional images:
+ Show Spoiler +

OtherWorld

France17333 Posts

January 28 2015 07:07 GMT

#2980

On January 28 2015 10:41 SwedenTheKid wrote:

144x144
New WIP Idea
Still cant seem to make up my mind on were the golds should be. Obviously early development. Thoughts?

Be wary with using the Daaelam Arch cliffs on a non-space tileset. As you can see it creates black holes, and then since you can't hide it with fog/water you have to place fucktons of doodas to cover the holes.

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