On January 26 2015 08:45 Xenotolerance wrote: That map is awesome. Very standard, very cool boxy style, interesting base layout. It does look like you could move the natural resources closer to the nat ramp to help zergs wall off.
Noted! I've already shifted it closer.
The current version of your map is good. Taking a third might be a little hard for Terran/Protoss though, since both options are far ground distance from the natural, and one of them is incredibly open.
I actually think you'll need more bases on the map. It's designed to be more of a macro map as far as I can tell (the narrow middle, the larger map size, etc) but lacks the resources for it imo. Overgrowth is smaller than yours and has two more bases. I aim for 12 bases total on most of my maps, and they are (generally) on the smaller side of the spectrum.
I feel like you're unsure of what you want to do with the high ground area outside of the open third, where the watchtowers are. Maybe you could fit a base in there someway?
EDIT: Forgot to mention this, but the main should probably be made smaller, or at least changed a little so that Blink isn't too powerful.
On January 26 2015 11:47 SidianTheBard wrote: Either way, "WoL-ish" map I'm working on for TLMC. 140x126 (so pretty small) and only 10 base. I'm tempted to even make the "middle" base a Gold base, but then again, 4 regular + 1 gold might not be enough. Aesthetics aren't done at all, and I feel kinda "mereel-ish" by doing that type of..uhh...cliff lol but /shrug.
I love how unique the layout is, it really looks like an aggressive map which is something that we see less and less of in tournaments.
I don't think there needs to be a gold expansion. Your primary concern should be racial balance with this, since taking a third seems really hard to do.
On January 26 2015 11:47 SidianTheBard wrote: Either way, "WoL-ish" map I'm working on for TLMC. 140x126 (so pretty small) and only 10 base. I'm tempted to even make the "middle" base a Gold base, but then again, 4 regular + 1 gold might not be enough. Aesthetics aren't done at all, and I feel kinda "mereel-ish" by doing that type of..uhh...cliff lol but /shrug.
I love how unique the layout is, it really looks like an aggressive map which is something that we see less and less of in tournaments.
I don't think there needs to be a gold expansion. Your primary concern should be racial balance with this, since taking a third seems really hard to do.
What is the nat to nat time?
Yeah, I've been messing around with how to make a 3rd a little safer, might add some d-rocks to make it a bit easier to take a third, but still experimenting.
Main to main = 47sec. Nat to nat = 35sec.
Also yeah, wanted to experiment with a more aggressive map. Figure since we can submit 3 maps to TLMC I'm going to rework one of my olds maps, create an experimental/aggressive map, and create something standard.
Maybe you could experiment with collapsible rocks to close down one of the paths? I think that'd work more nicely with the aggressive theme than destructible rocks, since it forces you have an army if you want to expand safely.
These are the maps that I'm working on. All but the last one have been posted earlier, though the layouts have changed. I'm intending for these to be my TLMC submissions, since my old maps are old and therefore really unbalanced. The only one I might go rework is Insurrection. I've been out of the scene for a long time, and now I'm trying to make three at once haha.
Dark Matter 128 x 128
I tried to use the center from my old map Hysteria in a new way. I wanted this map to be small and have a simple, clear expansion pattern with multiple different attack routes to encourage army splitting and avoid a split-map scenario.
unamed 148 x 116
I am trying a new center design that I've been pondering for a while but haven't put into a map until now. The center plateaus share a watchtower that gives sight to both plateaus. The tower blocks the path between them, so you can't walk from one plateau to the other without going onto low ground. I want to see some engagements across the high grounds, I think that'd be something cool that I'd want to see.
Primus 132 x 140
Probably the most standard one I have at the moment, and my least favorite of the three. Small center choke, high yield bases, and the main feature is that the late game expansions have vulnerable mineral lines.
Overall I like it a lot, only thing I'd worry about it that it "could" get split-map. You could get a meching terran that just slow pushes horizontal and there probably isn't much a zerg could do. I know it won't change much of splitting the map, but I wonder if you make one of the middle paths the 2nd ground level instead of low ground level.
Second Map:
Blink "could" be a problem. The first 4 bases seem like you could camp on them fairly easily. Lot of 2x/3x ramps as the chokes which seem very hard for many races to push into. Watchtower doesn't serve much purpose imo, it does help a bit for 2 base pushes because the fastest path is through the center, but anything after that and it kind of gets worthless imo. I think having a forward base that's on that center high ground would be good. Either replace a base and switch it, or add a new base. It feels like right now, you're always better off expanding to the 3rd that touches your main. Why not make an "aggressive" third a little closer to the center just to have that option (mainly for terran) but could be a "decider" base if it gets endgame as well.
Third Map: It's youre "wip" map and tbh there is a lot I don't like. :\
The high ground direction north/south of the main. The 3rd golds aren't that great imo, the position of them are so aggressive but also very undefend-able, super open, harassable, etc etc. It also is kind of "split mappy" again considering you have two 3x ramps and the middle which seems like it takes three 3x3 buildings to wall off?
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If you want me to go into more detail on a specific map, let me know. Otherwise, trying to hit a few things on each map! :D
Map 1 is great but it doesn't have a real choice in expansion layout, that's the only thing missing for me to think it's really good. It also has what I think of as an auxiliary base - that is an outer base that's very close to another one and isn't any harder to defend - in the sixth base. Once you have five, taking that sixth base isn't any harder. I would recommend connecting the low ground between the sixth base and the area in front of the main, maybe blocked by rocks or with a collapsible tower there to keep it close to its current defensive value. ps the texturing style is fantastic, please use something similar on your other maps!
Map 2 is my favorite and I look forward to seeing it in TLMC! :D I love the conjoined center concept in maps like this. Very cool, would want to play on ladder.
Map 3 is too choked across the center, and I keep imagining that the main and nat are in the 11 / 4 corners instead. Imagine if you just kind of swapped the first four bases horizontally, connecting the long plateau leading from the fourth to the plateau currently next to the main. The main and nat would be flipped horizontally, so the main is still in the corner, but the third and forth would just get slid over, so there's a low ground base in the corner. So if right now it's M N 3 4 from left to right, it would become 3 4 N M. Anyway it's got some good things too and I am excited to see what you can do with it.
this is so awesome. I love when there's a map contest going on. I started practicing maps about six months ago with the intention of making worthy entries in the next TLMC, and here we are. I spent my sunday evening watching WCS and making maps. Good times!
Here is another map I have been working on (I have not published this one yet) called Frigid Hell: What do you think? I do not know to much about how to make a map balanced between races, so, again, any feedback would be great.
Looks really cool, and awesome name, though you do have some big changes to make:
The main has too much blink area, since it is adjacent to low ground all around it - try pushing the middle-elevation base in particular further away from the main so stalkers can't blink across there.
The natural needs to have a diagonal ramp instead of a cardinal ramp because it is unnaturally hard to wall off a cardinal ramp. All you need to do here is adjust the natural setup to have a ramp that's rotated 45 degrees clockwise, and looking at what you have already this shouldn't change things too much. Try moving the second geyser to the other side of the mineral line and using that space to slide the ramp over. EZ
Finally, the paths that cross the center of the map are too small - try making the ramps that lead to the central plateaus all 4-wide ramps, and remove the single-width cardinal ramps.
You should avoid cardinal ramps such as the one at the natural. Apart from that I don't think I see major flaws looking at it quickly. Maybe a bit chokey for my taste (make the center ramps wider) + the 9/3 bases are a bit close to the forward third, I would pull them further away a bit. edit : oh yeah blink, I am dumb. It's a problem here.
I updated my other map - lol I finally caved and added the 6th base. I really really didn't want to, because I had planned the concept all along as a 10-base, but it really does work better with it. Thanks for the consensus. Also Sidian thank you for the high ground tower idea, it does a lot to make that third more fun and feasible for everyone.
still 144x136 rush 36.7. Stalkers can blink only to the isthmus of the main base, can't make it across the gap behind the 3rd minerals.
Thanks for the great feedback guys - I have hopefully fixed the majority of the issues. Hopefully blink shall not be an issue now and I have widened the center ramp and made the natural expansion's ramp diagonal The part of the middle base that is lowered and connected to the main is un-pathable (and there are rocks there to tell the players that it is not part of the base) Thanks!
On January 26 2015 15:18 Xenotolerance wrote: I updated my other map - lol I finally caved and added the 6th base. I really really didn't want to, because I had planned the concept all along as a 10-base, but it really does work better with it. Thanks for the consensus. Also Sidian thank you for the high ground tower idea, it does a lot to make that third more fun and feasible for everyone.
still 144x136 rush 36.7. Stalkers can blink only to the isthmus of the main base, can't make it across the gap behind the 3rd minerals.
feelin' good peeps
Your map is looking awesome by the way Are the lone high-ground parts pathable?
Xeno: I really like what's happening here. The bases at 3/9 feel very awkward/choked up to me and the watchtowers are too easy of a grab imo and make expanding in that direction too safe/obvious. I think the watchtower would be better right up against the cliff between the two ramps leading to the lowest teir terrain and on the lowest tier terrain (think of cloud kingdom).
Brushing up the textures and doodads, feel like it's pretty much done at this point. The only thing I'm still not too sure about is making 12/6 high yields. It seems like the obvious thing to do, but it seems so obvious it makes the map a little cliche. I think a high yield would take away from the option of holding 2 mains - right now I think the two mains are close enough that a player could choose to expand to the other main on their side and sit on 5 bases with a wall at both naturals. This will prbably be my only TLMC submission unless I can get one more done before the deadline.
On January 27 2015 01:45 JaredStarr wrote: Xeno: I really like what's happening here. The bases at 3/9 feel very awkward/choked up to me and the watchtowers are too easy of a grab imo and make expanding in that direction too safe/obvious. I think the watchtower would be better right up against the cliff between the two ramps leading to the lowest teir terrain and on the lowest tier terrain (think of cloud kingdom).
The anti-clockwise 3rds are meant to be chokey compared to their alternatives, but compared to most maps they're pretty average. It's 4 FFs to block off in both directions. Awkward, I can definitely agree with. I plan on making little adjustments all over the map to clean it up. I've moved the resources towards the natural and widened the pathway from the natural to make it feel nice and spacious.
And the watchtower used to be exactly where you suggest lol. I moved it because it was fairly useless on both attack and defense, and where it is now it makes defending the 3rd and 4th there viable despite how open the area is. IMO it's not obvious at all to expand in that direction because even with the watchtower, the other 3rd is so much easier to defend. I know I'd rather take the other 3rd as Protoss vs Zerg, and drop the tower asap.
yer map looks rad too I love the look of it. The top-right bottom-left position kind of wigs me out because I can't find a good 4th and the geyser placement on the 5th? base feels wrong. But yea if I were playing in the other position I might like to see the middle base be high yield.
@Xenotolerance nice textures! It's coming along nicely.
@LComteVarauG There are still two cardinal ramps on your map, you might want to make those diagonal ramps. I don't really like how the gold expansions are far away from the center. I feel that if you want to utilize expansions like those, they should be in a more vulnerable place.
@JaredStarr I feel like you just plopped the watchtowers down because you felt the need to have them. I think they should be moved to a different spot or removed from the map, I just don't think they add enough to gameplay for them to be necessary.
I honestly like the previous version better and think that the expansions make the high ground too powerful. Alternatively, I could add the expansion back under the blocked natural ramp in addition to the high ground expansion, but I doubt it would accomplish much.
Blink is still a problem. I might have to modify the bounds to push the mains further away from the close third, or move the third elsewhere.
The watchtower is far from useless in the mid and late game since the only two paths across the map are the high grounds. The watchtower will effectively tell you which side of the map the opponent's army is, at least until the natural's backdoor is opened. Then you can move your army to a different side secretively, but it's a more choked path and would take longer since you'd have to move backwards to the natural before moving forwards.
Antares777: I would say rework the top right/bottom left corners and open them right up. I suggest this just because your map looks like a bunch of corridors atm and I feel this is where lots of the engagements will happen and how it is right now will put things in a kind of stand-off ish position.
I really like the middle - I've been making maps with split XNT lately and it makes things fun. The significance you put on the XNT is pretty cool too, I'd be worried a little bit about early game map control marine vs. zealot/zergling where the marine has an obvious advantage (I don't think the XNT has enough significance in that early of the game that it matters though). Second thing I would be concerned about is blink plays across the center.
Finally, here's an idea to avoid increasing map size and making blink all-ins less viable. + Show Spoiler +
Lift the terrain, put the ramp more forward and throw down some destructible on the second ramp. There's some immediate concerns (easy 3 base & walling off your Nat pulls out out of position from your backdoor - not necessarily bad things) but they shouldn't be hard to address should you decide to take that route.
(Took out XNT and make the middle bases high yield) I could add a base here for an easier 4th. Immediate thoughts: **The hard 4th isn't really a broken feature though, is it? **Having the 4th a gold relieves some of that 4th base expo anxiety? **Hard 4th makes expanding to the other start location just as viable of an option (allowing for game variety)? **Might be too base crazy if I add that one in, I feel like the base count is juuuust right.
You don't need anymore bases imo. Maybe instead of adding a 12 and 6 base, you could lower the 1 and 7 bases and connect the low ground path to it. Just a suggestion ^^,
This one fixes Blink issues without changing the map size. I shrunk the mains and moved the thirds further out. Adjusting chokes for the third caused me to change the chokes outside the third. It still has two entrances, but you won't be able to bounce between them as easily as before.
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