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[M] (4) ESV Khaydaria by IronManSC - Page 4
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10584 Posts
On June 23 2012 02:58 IronManSC wrote: Khaydaria 1.2 uploaded to all servers, also with a custom loading screen! Once again thank you all for the support! + Show Spoiler [Load Screen] + Looks really nice. Really good map with exceptional usage of rocks. Absolutely amazing. One of the best maps I've seen. | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10584 Posts
On June 23 2012 03:15 IronManSC wrote: iGrok bugging me about this so I figure i'll poll it up I voted yes if you want to do it. If it's too much time on you then don't do it. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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monitor
United States2409 Posts
On June 23 2012 04:11 NewSunshine wrote: Not necessary, Khaydaria looks great as is. Plus, I'd prefer your next map is an entirely new project, not just an aesthetic tweak of an old one. Agreed. Move on- new map, new features, challenge yourself! | ||
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Ingebrigtsen
Norway343 Posts
On June 23 2012 04:14 monitor wrote: Agreed. Move on- new map, new features, challenge yourself! agreed, I want to see how the stream map turns out ^^ | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
On Counter-Clockwise Spawn
On the Clockwise Spawn Location
I swear I knew of more nuances before I began writing this post, I'll edit if I remember them. The map is really great on cross spawns and promotes a lot of different play styles and is a great replacement to Antiga Shipyard. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
I didn't get your first point as the nat's are far away at any spawn, but just my personal thought is that much like BW sometimes map need to balance things out, and ur feedback is mainly anti Zerg stuff. All valid points though and I will make sure the team sees it  ! | ||
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monitor
United States2409 Posts
On June 26 2012 10:47 Ipp wrote: I really think this map needs to be cross position only; for a lot of the same reasons of Antiga Shipyard and Metalopolis On Counter-Clockwise Spawn
On the Clockwise Spawn Location
I swear I knew of more nuances before I began writing this post, I'll edit if I remember them. The map is really great on cross spawns and promotes a lot of different play styles and is a great replacement to Antiga Shipyard. Just going to reply to these individually since it could get really confusing-
Not sure which third is on the same screen as the opponent's natural, but the CW spawning player does have a third that is close to the opponent's main. However things tend to balance out- in this case, the fourth expansion is easier than the opponents and is protected by the main. Additionally, this same problem occurs on Antiga Shipyard, and the main reason that map sucks is because taking a fourth is so limited without controlling the center or making it a ninja expo and relying on it not being scouted.
I don't think that fourth base was intended to be taken in TvZ (or any MU for that matter), because the distance between players would be so short that if you can expand there, you should have already won. But in the off chance that it is possible, I suppose it could be an issue.
Indeed, unfortunately this kind of positional imbalance is just something that happens in most rotational maps (in happened in Brood War too). Luckily it tends to balance out, like mutas will be slightly more effective and scouting with overlords/overseers is also a bit easier. Counter-attack drops are a bit different than mutas/scouting, but I don't think it will be a very big issue- no more than Antiga or Shakuras horizontal spawns. Btw I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing or trying to discredit your feedback, and if so, sorry. Just trying to explain some of it from a mapmakers perspective and why it worked in BW. | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
On June 26 2012 10:47 Ipp wrote: I really think this map needs to be cross position only; for a lot of the same reasons of Antiga Shipyard and Metalopolis On Counter-Clockwise Spawn
On the Clockwise Spawn Location
I swear I knew of more nuances before I began writing this post, I'll edit if I remember them. The map is really great on cross spawns and promotes a lot of different play styles and is a great replacement to Antiga Shipyard. Deal with it. Adapt to the different positions and don't be a brainless machine. | ||
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
On June 26 2012 17:00 Superouman wrote: Deal with it. Adapt to the different positions and don't be a brainless machine. It's not that you cannot adapt. It is the fact that there isn't going to be a dynamic playstyle on those positions for a very very long time. From what I have casted on that map it is always all in's on those positions compared to when it is on cross positions it actually promotes dynamic play. A lot of tournaments have a loser pick format, as of right now I feel that picking the map would be like playing Russian Roulette (much like early day Metalopolis) -- Which means any large tournament would be criticized for having a map like this in their map pool. Where is a Zerg suppose to take a third? If you take the mini-base and Rocks go down, you suddenly will have a terrible time defending. If you take the normal third base you will have to defend against drop and air play. If you play it "Tal'darim Style" and go two base, the clockwise spawn will have a very easy third base especially if they aren't Zerg. Putting responsibility on the players and saying adapt to it like people did in BW is not going to work, players are spoiled. If you want your map to make it into competitive play, you have to make it appealing to players. There are a lot more tournaments than there use to be and a lot of them use a "Loser Pick / VETO" system. If a player doesn't want to play on a map, they doesn't have -- Therefore the map doesn't get played enough for it to be figured out. ----------------- Thanks for the response Monitor, hopefully this clears some things up: On June 26 2012 14:17 monitor wrote: Not sure which third is on the same screen as the opponent's natural, but the CW spawning player does have a third that is close to the opponent's main. However things tend to balance out- in this case, the fourth expansion is easier than the opponents and is protected by the main. Sorry, I meant main not natural. If you take the Fourth base and the Rocks go down; you will come across different issues. Additionally, the fourth has less economy so you would be taking a relatively big disadvantage for being on that spawn position. Harder to defend + Less Economy, the clockwise person has a relatively big advantage. On June 26 2012 14:17 monitor wrote: I don't think that fourth base was intended to be taken in TvZ (or any MU for that matter), because the distance between players would be so short that if you can expand there, you should have already won. But in the off chance that it is possible, I suppose it could be an issue. What is there stopping a Terran from taking the fourth base and then just getting the third base due to having his fourth? This fourth base can be worse than Antiga if Terran spawns in the Counter-Clockwise position. On June 26 2012 14:17 monitor wrote: Indeed, unfortunately this kind of positional imbalance is just something that happens in most rotational maps (in happened in Brood War too). Luckily it tends to balance out, like mutas will be slightly more effective and scouting with overlords/overseers is also a bit easier. Counter-attack drops are a bit different than mutas/scouting, but I don't think it will be a very big issue- no more than Antiga or Shakuras horizontal spawns. Antiga is cross only and Shakuras is cross only depending on the version. Additionally, on Shakuras plateu the air and ground distance between bases is equidistant. That is not the case for this map. If you have a drop ship the counter-clockwise person can either deal instant damage or have instant reinforcements to the 3rd base. | ||
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avc
121 Posts
On June 26 2012 13:14 Diamond wrote: Ipp as always ur awesome, I have to ask this question to your feedback however. In an era of the most dominant Zerg play ever seen where tournament Top 8's are very heavily Zerg stacked, is a map that allows for air punishment of a fast third a bad thing? One of the overlooked things about this patch is that it makes it possible for map makers to create smaller maps, or maps with more varied features as Zerg is a more capable race early game against Terran now and less prone to the variety of un-scouted cheese and all ins that can come. I'd like to see map makers be able to have a little more flexibility over what they can design without it always being incredibly good for Terran and incredibly bad for Zerg, with Protoss being generally ok as long as they have the right size choke point outside their natural. Hopefully the patch stays and the quality of maps continues to grow. | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
1) Changing the center bases from 6m1hyg to 5m2g or 6m2g. 2) Shaving off part of the main bases (behind the gas geysers) to make it not feel so close to the low-ground 3rd. This would also help players spot drops more, since they are dropped in this area of the main and are hidden in the fog of war because of the excess room behind the gas geysers. • Also, we are discussing the topic of "cross spawn" but we feel the map needs to be played more to come to a better conclusion. The hot topic in this regard was about the third being easily abused by void rays and drops. From Skype Chat: "like they won't get a spore crawler or an extra queen at the third to defend drops/voidrays" | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10584 Posts
On June 27 2012 02:42 IronManSC wrote: I am discussing with the team about the following possible changes to Khaydaria: 1) Changing the center bases from 6m1hyg to 5m2g or 6m2g. 2) Shaving off part of the main bases (behind the gas geysers) to make it not feel so close to the low-ground 3rd. This would also help players spot drops more, since they are dropped in this area of the main and are hidden in the fog of war because of the excess room behind the gas geysers. • Also, we are discussing the topic of "cross spawn" but we feel the map needs to be played more to come to a better conclusion. The hot topic in this regard was about the third being easily abused by void rays and drops. From Skype Chat: very good point to the quote. if they don't defend it, but at least put up defenses to stop it, then that's their own fault. every map has their own imbalance for spawn, its the players job to defend it. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On June 27 2012 04:41 Diamond wrote: I spent a lot of time thinking about this and every argument for cross comes down to "Zergs has to defend their third!" I'm ok with this, I don't see any reason a 3rd base should be free. I agree, and I'm sort of hoping this becomes the general consensus, because the status quo(and its perpetuation) only inhibits map design. It's easy to come up with a cool design where it's put down immediately, because it has features that make players play differently. Having to defend against drops is not an excuse to force cross spawns, as has been said before, the real reason Antiga Shipyard gets so much stink is because of the 4th base options, of which there are almost none. The 3rd base dynamic has little to do with it. I've said it before, I'll say it again: forced cross-spawns is a practice in stagnation, and should not be done, save for maps which are specifically designed for it(2-in-1 maps). I've found no exception to this notion among those maps used in any tournament pools. The players need to understand what they really want from new maps. Any time innovation is attempted, it's seen as too outlandish, and must be made more standard. Any time someone adheres to convention, the resulting map is a boring one we've all seen a thousand times. Figure out what you want. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On June 27 2012 14:03 neobowman wrote: I don't think you need the D-rocks on the ramps at the fourth. Looks really similar to Prodder's new map XD. Maybe open up new paths to the middle as well. So prodig can use it but i can't? The rocks are there because in close spawns, it prevents quick rush distances. The rocks make it so wherever you spawn, you have to go through the center temporarily. They're kind of needed. Also I have been thinking about opening up additional paths to the center but I'm not sure how I would do that. Having low ground open space between each high ground pod would look very awkward and easily containable. | ||
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