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On August 24 2012 04:26 Garmer wrote:
can you put BW sounds, at least for the BW units?
It will give extra file size to the MOD. I try to keep it as small and easy to download as possible.. Any reason for BW sounds?
@maybenexttime thanks 
I repost this so people can see whast going on in the coco nest:
--- New update up on EU ---
Lets start with the small stuff:
Ultralisks now finally start with 1 armor and NOT with 10!
Siege tanks deal 45 dmg vs everything and 65 vs armored. They can now overkill. It means that more Siege tanks then needed can shoot at the same target and thus waste firepower. See this thread and search for "overkill" for good reasons: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325
Moving shot has been added to some units. Mutalisks, Corsairs & Wraiths already had it but I improved it further. I have added it to Drones, Probes, Archons and Vultures. I have looked at the Sc2BW MOD for references. If needed, more units can get it later.
Minor bug fixes and adjustments. No weird balance changes yet.
Here comes the big stuff... And now Danko gonna kill me ^^
I have added three new "concepts" I want to try. They have not been tested in multiplayer so the stats and actual balance is by no means perfect. Since I still call this for beta means that I can go bananas with my ideas :D
The Arbiter spell Matrix has been rebuilt. Arbiter is the most expensive and late tech unit in the game. It messes with the fabrics of space! It can create black holes! Therefore it felt silly and not very useful to have a small "healing" spell for the Arbiter.. Remember, Matrix used to regenerate energy & life at a slow rate to units in the Matrix field.. Instead, Matrix manipulates time.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8WZIP.jpg)
It creates a Matrix at target area. (I just call it Matrix because it ends with an X, just like Vortex.. If anyone has a better name, tell me!) All friendly ground units inside the Matrix attack & moves 25% faster. Shields and energy regenerates faster too. (Its also time!) All enemy units AND buildings in the Matrix attack, moves, regenerates and produces stuff 25% slower. It lasts 20 seconds.
So.. How can this be used? Well, probably players will use it on top of their army to gain extra fire power.. Or in a melee combat were both the enemy and frendly units are fighting, hence the effect is even better.. You can also use it on enemy static defences to slow them down, since Vortex won´t remove them.. You could use it to regenerate energy a little faster for your High Templars & Dark Archons.. You can also cast it on enemy buildings to slow down the production time by 25%...
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Medics has a new spell that can be researched, called Energize. It allows Medics to replenish energy to friendly units. It is a channeled ability that replenishes 1.5 energy per second. So if the Medic has full energy, 100, it will give 30 energy during 20 seconds to target unit. It is no auto-cast on it, so you must target each unit individually. And what is the purpose of this?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EWaKs.jpg)
It feels very Terran to have a supportive ability like this. It fills an empty spell slot for the Medic and it hopefully gives them a broader use. Even if you do not go bio with lots of barracks, having a few medics in your mech army can still be useful. You can replenish energy to Vessels, Wraiths, Ghosts & Battlecruisers. It will probably be mostly used to replenish Vessels so they can cast more Irradiate or EMPs. But if you do play bio, the gain is not that great. Sacrifice a Medics entire energy of 100 to give 30 to another unit. You will not have energy to heal. I do not know if this is too good or too bad.
The worst case scenario is probably if they keep replenishing Battlecruisers Yamato gun. Maybe BCs and Medics can be a lategame combo. If that proves to be too strong, a cooldown can be added to Yamato gun, or increase it casting cost or something similar.
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The Nydus worm has made comeback, but with a twist. I never liked it in SC2 because it allowed players to do base trades and all-in-attacks so much easier. If you get the nydus up, you can have your whole deathball in that players base.
You build a Nydus Nest for 200/200 at Lair tech. The Nydus Nest allows you to build a Nydus worm at target location on creep. It costs 100/100 and 8 supply. It has a 150 seconds cooldown. The Nydus Worm lasts 40 seconds and spawn 4 free roaches every 10 second. The roach lasts 15 seconds and a Nydus worm can spawn 4 waves of Roaches.. That equals 16 short-lived roaches............... "ok, Kabel... WTF is going on now?!"
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kVGCt.jpg)
Let me explain. What will the Worm be useful for?
The main concept is that the closer you get the worm to the enemy the more effective will your Roaches be. But if you are too close, the enemy can snipe the worm. So what the Nydus Worm does is add you a decent temporarily army at a location.. It still costs you money and it can only be spawned on creep.
All of a sudden, having Overlords with creep spread out on the map or with your army gets more interesting. They will act as potential zones to summon a Nydus when needed. What can players do with this?
--- Defence ---
If you are attacked at an expansion a bit away, you can summon a Nydus there for 100/100 to spawn some temporarily reinforcements. Also, if the enemy is about to move onto the creep, you can spawn some Nyduses there to buy you some time while your real army gets in position.
--- Siege ---
If you want to assault an enemy base and have some overlords with you, you can spawn Nyduses there to assault the defences. The free Roaches can soak up the tank or cannon damage, while your real army deals the damage.
--- Harass ---
If you have some overlords near enemy expansions, or if you get an overlord into the enemy base, you can spawn nyduses to harass him.
--- In combat ---
If you are about to engage the enemy players army, spawning a couple of Nyduses can help you win the combat. This will probably encourages creep spread too, since the edge of the creep is a likely place to spawn worms as close to the enemy army as possible, when he tries to move onto the creep. You can also use Nyduses to flank the enemy. If you spawn some at the side of his army, you can attack from 2 directions.
Overall, I think Nyduses will encourage some fun decision making, by both you and the opponent. Shall I use the worm here? Or is it to close? Can I engage the enemy worm? Shall I fight or back of until the Worms expires?
The reason I use Roaches is that it was an easy model to try this concept with. I want a unit that does not deal so much damage, but can rather tank damage for Zerg. The potential worst scenario is if a player builds 10 of these buildings and drops them into the enemy base. Ok, they waste 1000/1000 doing so.. But since Roaches are not that good damage dealers and live so short, they will most likely not destroy an entire base, like one normal SC2 worm would have done.
But I will probably find a new model for an entire new Zerg unit that comes out of the Worm, so it gets a more unique feeling.
Will this be extremely overpowered? Spawn 16 roaches, 4 at a time every 10 seconds, that lives 15 seconds for 200/200 main building cost and 100/100 spawn Nydus cost with 150 seconds cooldown? Or will this just suck big time? Or never be used?
Will any of these abilities be useful? I don´t know, but I do wanna give it a try. But if the concepts do not fit in the game at all, I will of course remove them.
As usual, give your opinions on this matter.
I will be online on EU soon to play some. Feel free to join the Starbow Chat Channel to play with me!
This will not be sent to NA today. The reason is that when I try it on EU now I will most likely have to change some values. So I will send you a better update tomorrow instead.
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I love this custom so much, the more I play it the sadder it makes me that sc2 was designed similarily to this. Keep up the sick job op, naybe one day we can have starbow tourneys.
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well... get it then :D
its way more fun than the regular starcraft...
one of the boring thing with the regular i think is the smart AI..
so cool..
hope more ppl see this and play
/
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I hate the new Nydus idea. It looks way too gimicky, like something Dustin Browder would design :S
Matrix sounds great. Should be tested.
Medic's spell is meh. Ok i guess..
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Hmmm yeah not sure I like that new update. Pretty much agree with dakota. Idk about balance and I'm not concerned with that, but I'm not really fond of the ideas. Nydus worm would be fine the way it's always been, just make it only be usable on creep if it's indeed too powerful. Idk about medics restoring energy... I feel like maybe it's giving them too much of a separate role like the medivac did in SC2. I guess it could be tested, but the idea of seeing mech energy units with medics following it doesn't sound attractive to me. Doesn't even really make sense in my head that a unit that small is capable of restoring energy to large mech units. Makes me feel like they could just keep a medic on board lol. I think the medic was fine just healing bio units, and maybe having a few spells that did a few things, but nothing role changing. I think anything mobile that restores energy is a bad idea to be honest. I wouldn't mind a building doing that maybe, but other than that, I think restoring energy while mobile was more of a Zerg defiler thing, and I don't think the other races need that.
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matrix seems pretty nice.
medic recharge is something we will have to wait and see how it turns out.
but the nydus...
the mechanic is not bad design.
its probably not too weak.
but I feel uncomfortable when I think about it. which in a way indicates bad design. not because of how the mechanic works, but because how it was presented to the playerbase.
kind of like if you had a 7-sided die. it does what any other die does, except its fundamentally different.
similarly: this nydus worm does what any other nydus worm does, except it's fundamentally different.
but if everyone grew up with the 7-sided die, it wouldn't be a problem.
similarly: if everyone had played with this nydus for months already, it wouldn't be a problem.
was this intended to replace frenzy or something? or is this a new mechanic which is available in addition to everything else in the game?
my thoughts about nydus
+ Show Spoiler +
it seems fine in theory, but it ticks people off when you say "first final version" and then adds an entirely new mechanic.
with the announcement of "first final version" it set peoples expectations that it was fairly stable, that it wouldn't change much. the numbers would be tweaked and a spell or two might change a little bit, but nothing major would happen past that point.
the playerbase feels a little dissappointed and let down. they can no longer trust that nothing big will change, that the build they have been working on will still work in the next patch.
it would probably have been better to tell the playerbase about this kind of major change, and the reasoning behind it, because frankly, I look at it and think:
ok, it's pretty cool, but why is it there?
isn't this something which should have been tried way earlier in development?
so in conclusion:
from an outside perspective I cannot see what new things it will add to the game, it feels redundant and worse than the alternatives. simply because it feels like a very uncertain reward, a gamble.
furthermore it will probably have the exact same problems that tremor had (when used in certain situations, it does nothing, but in other, quite rare situations, it breaks the game), except its even more powerful and costs money.
so why add it?
im quite curious.
to community:
on a side note, the swarm guardian now requires a hive and a spire (and infestation pit which is a requirement for hive), but it is common to already have a spire when you get the hive, and that has always bugged me a little (swarm guardian still basicly requires the hive and nothing else). what is the communities thoughts about this? personally I think the swarm guardian should need its own building, and the new nydus stuff has got me thinking creatively: what would happen if the swarm guardian required nydus canal and only had 2 abilities? the 3rd ability associated with swarm guardian would be related to nydus worms, and used by the nydus canal.
just brainstorming and playing the what-if game, communities thoughts? (remember: "related to nydus worms" say basicly nothing about how it would work, it could mean anything.)
//Roblin
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On August 24 2012 05:41 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 04:26 Garmer wrote:
can you put BW sounds, at least for the BW units? It will give extra file size to the MOD. I try to keep it as small and easy to download as possible.. Any reason for BW sounds?.
they are better .
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it seems fine in theory, but it ticks people off when you say "first final version" and then adds an entirely new mechanic.
with the announcement of "first final version" it set peoples expectations that it was fairly stable, that it wouldn't change much. the numbers would be tweaked and a spell or two might change a little bit, but nothing major would happen past that point.
the playerbase feels a little dissappointed and let down. they can no longer trust that nothing big will change, that the build they have been working on will still work in the next patch.
it would probably have been better to tell the playerbase about this kind of major change, and the reasoning behind it, because frankly, I look at it and think:
ok, it's pretty cool, but why is it there?
isn't this something which should have been tried way earlier in development?
I´m sorry if I broke anyones expectations, but I did not assume that people expected this to be in a final or complete state? Let me explain: The first deadline I had at the end of july was a way for me to put stuff together, so I could get a fairly playable version out. And I did. Otherwise I could go on forever deciding about this and that. I gave the MOD a set-up of spells, units & abilities. But I did not mean that the game was final at that point, not even in terms of the line-up for the races. The though was to evaluate to see what works and what gaps we have in the MOD. In fact, a couple of major changes has happend in the game since the end of july: The economy has been changed, Larva Inject has been added, Infect creep has been removed and Immortals have made a comeback.
Are the things I added yesterday a so much bigger suprise? Matrix has been changed, Medics has a new spell and I try the Nydus worm concept? I try to keep an open conversation as possible with the people who enjoys playing this. You say I should have told the community about this? Well, I made a post about it yesterday where I stated that I want to try the ideas and I explained them. I also stated that if it is no good or does not fit in the game, I will remove it. Perhaps my reasoning behind the worm was not clear or understandable enough.
One might say that a lot of stuff should have been tried earlier in the development. But is that really a fair statement? It means that certain ideas, changes or concepts can no longer be added or tried because its too late. Too late for what? I mean, I don´t run a game-company where this will go out in print or anything. I do this in my spare time cause I find it amusing. And the fact that people seems to enjoy this makes me continue. I don´t add random stuff just for the sake of adding it. I add stuff in areas where I think there is room for it. Of course I have made bad decisions for this MOD earlier and people have given me great ideas in the past. But sometimes I feel that I must take a risk with it to see if the stuff in my head works in the game, especially if I consider that there is room for such a thing.
what was the motivation for adding this new mechanic? what problem(s) are you trying to fix?
from an outside perspective I cannot see what new things it will add to the game, it feels redundant and worse than the alternatives. simply because it feels like a very uncertain reward, a gamble.
furthermore it will probably have the exact same problems that tremor had (when used in certain situations, it does nothing, but in other, quite rare situations, it breaks the game), except its even more powerful and costs money.
so why add it?
im quite curious.
The feedback, both from my own conclusions and from others, in the last month has partially revolved around these things:
Medics lacks a spell.
Matrix is not an interesting or useful spell.
Frenzy on Swarm Guardian overlaps with Plague. Please replace it.
Engineering bay has no upgrades. (I wanted to remake them so they got more useful and actually had a place in the game)
Protoss has no tier 2 units. Only gateway units and late tech!
Terran & Protoss has nothing early/midgame to spend gas on.
Zerg feels empty in tech choices.
The early and midgame Zerg army is so weak! Zerglings, Hydras & Lurkers just melt to everything!
I´ve added a new spell to Medics, I remade Matrix, I gave Immortal back to Protoss and made it be a gas-heavy midgame unit. Some liked the comeback of the Immortal, others still hate it. Thats the way it goes.
I don´t think that the reason for adding content to the game must always be to fix things. Adding new stuff can add to the diversity of the game. It can add options. Would the game be better or worse without Nukes? It would probably not change anything in the game if they were removed since they are so rarely used. But still they have an effect on the game by simply existing as an option.
When I examined the Zerg race in it´s current state, I thought about what could be added to it. Was it room for one more tech choice? Was it room for one more type of unit? Perhaps one that could take "free" damage from your ordinary army? How can generate creep with Overlords get more useful? Is there room for anything more that would actually improve the race?
I thought about the Nydus. Its a complete model, it works and people are familiar with it. I wanted to do something with it. Generally when I add content to the game I follow a couple of criteria:
1) It must fit and feel as a part of the race.
2) It must add something to the game that can´t be done otherwise.
3) It must be useful for the players. No reason to add stuff that is so bad that no one uses it.
4) If possible, it shall requires some work from the players to get the full benefit of it.
(Lurkers, siege tanks & Reavers are example of units that benefits from players using them well. They are weak otherwise, but gets strong with proper control. The opposite is "A-move units" that are strong by simply existing.)
I think that Nydus worms in its current SC2 state is not that unique. Overlords & Nydus does the same thing but in slightly different ways: transport units. I thought about what the Nydus could do that would make it truly unique.
I thought it fitted into the above criteria:
1) A big fat worm coming from the underground to spawn short-lived units in the combat feels very Zerg.
2) Nothing in the game spawns temporary units.
3) It has uses in so many areas, as explained in the patch-post above.
4) This is a unit that really benefits from good play. Overall, I want Zerg to have weak units in terms of HP. Their protection comes from using spells at the right time. For example Dark Swarm. Nydus worm can fall into this category too. If you want a temporary HP boost to your army, you can use a nydus. If you want some extra firepower to break a siege line, you can use Nydus. If you want to make a suprise-flank, you can use Nydus. But players gotta use it well to benefit from it, just like with Dark Swarm, Lurkers, Reavers & Siege tanks (as mentioned above).
As a restriction, I made it useable only on creep, to further enchance the need of spreading creep and generate creep with overlords. Overall, I like spells/units that effect or control areas/terrain in the game. As Zerg has the ability to spawn potential Nyduses, each overlord generating creep gets interesting and dangerous. Zerg has to position them around the map, or bring them with their army. The opponent want to chase them away.
Yes, the Nydus is a gamble now. Just as a Nuke. It can give you a big reward if you use it well, but it can also be a wasted cost that gave you nothing. So was not the case with "Tremor." (For you who do not know, there was a spell in the game earlier for Infestors called Tremor that made a similar thing.. For only energy.. And you could cast it anywhere. There was never any risk involved or any restrictions in the spell. Just spam it anywhere when you needed it.)
I also think it can be a useful addition in ZvZ, since it allows you to both be defensive and offensive with your nyduses in an easier way.
Obviously the four criteria I have up there is just bureaucracy. Its not that simple. There can still be reasons why something should be or not be in the game. Maybe this will be too confusing? People expect the Nydus to do what it does. Now it does something else. Is it just a Zerg pylon with warp in? Does it make Warp in for Protoss feel less special and unique? Does it overlap with what Zerg can already do? Is it just a boring ability?
I played with the Worm yesterday and two problems occured:
1) It was very very very strong. It lasted too long, was built too fast and spawned too many roaches.
2) You could cast 5 in the enemy base and do massive damage very easily.
How can this be adjusted?
I will make it have a 10 sec longer build time when it tries to pop out of the ground. When it pops out of the ground, it will spawn only 1 large wave of units, then it dies. So it last shortly and is "explosive" There is time to snipe it before it pops though. So if you cast it too close to the enemy it dies. Its also easier to back away or out-wait the worm, since it only creates 1 big wave of units that dies soon. Kinda like you can do vs Infested Terrans in SC2.
I will add a restricion that makes several being cast at once unable. Just as you can only have 1 Queen per hatchery. You can only have, for example, 2 nydus-worms plopping up at the same time.
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These are my reasons and thoughts regarding the Nydus concept. Bullshit? Well, maybe. And don´t forget, if it does not fit or add anything good to the game, it will be removed or remade into its orginal Nydus, the one worm we all know and love. But I do want to give this a shot before I scrap it completely. Thanks for reading.
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...
I played with the Worm yesterday and two problems occured:
1) It was very very very strong. It lasted too long, was built too fast and spawned too many roaches.
2) You could cast 5 in the enemy base and do massive damage very easily.
How can this be adjusted?
I will make it have a 10 sec longer build time when it tries to pop out of the ground. When it pops out of the ground, it will spawn only 1 large wave of units, then it dies. So it last shortly and is "explosive" There is time to snipe it before it pops though. So if you cast it too close to the enemy it dies. Its also easier to back away or out-wait the worm, since it only creates 1 big wave of units that dies soon. Kinda like you can do vs Infested Terrans in SC2.
I will add a restricion that makes several being cast at once unable. Just as you can only have 1 Queen per hatchery. You can only have, for example, 2 nydus-worms plopping up at the same time.
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this seems way way way better to be honest. the main reason why nydus was much less acceptable than other spells and such is that it was too complicated to be called a spell thats why I referred to it as a mechanic instead.
it didn't just involve a spell being cast, it involved a spell, a building, units and time with certain relationships between them.
this change makes it straightforward and simple to use: cast spell at location X, it spawns some units there.
instead of: cast spell at location X, it periodically spawns units there as long as a building at location X is alive.
as for making it non-spammable, the easiest method would be to just limit it to a fixed maximum amount like 2 or 3 or make it based upon how many hives/lairs the player has, whatever works best.
for example: amount of hives * 2 + amount of lairs = maximum amount of nydus.
I would limit it to a fixed maximum amount, but that's just me.
the only issue I have with it is that it is still quite a gamble, if you place it close enough to the enemy to be a threat, then its easily sniped, if you place it far away enough to guarantee that it actually spawns the units, then the enemy will see them coming into vision and can easily escape.
so either way, the enemy can pretty much always guarantee itself to never have to fight the roaches. thus it still feels like it will be amazing during sieges and where fights can be forced, but wasted money in any other situations.
if the roaches were very fast that would probably fix that problem, that way they will participate in the battle by running down the enemy and picking of units in the retreating army, and thus they would be allowed to be pretty weak, as a result of being weak, the threat of having 2 or 3 nyduses popping in the main wont raze the entire thing.
I believe that was the issue with tremor, right?
the enemy tended to just run away from the spawned units, so you made them really strong but really slow, so good positioning of the nyduses was rewarded with massive efficiency.
the problem was with sieges and fighting at enemy bases, the spawned units managed to easily run up to the stationary buildings, and got to use their massive efficiency during most of their duration.
but I dont think the opposite was tested.
this is probably the reason why broodlings are almost as fast as speedlings. because if a unit has very high speed then it will always be able to use the maximum efficiency, and thus they are much easier to balance.
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Thanks for your input Roblin. Without critizm things will not evolve in this MOD. Everyone is welcome to discuss & analyze the current Nydus concept. The Nydus I presented yesterday was not a good worm. It was in fact a nasty one. But as we look at the possibilities and the factors surronding the Nydus, then maybe something good can come out of the concept. Hopefully this can become a mechanic that actually adds something to the game.
I remember the Inject. I overhauled it earlier. I did not even examine it. I just thought it was bad. Now, two weeks ago, when you examined the numbers of it and we tweaked it according to it, atleast I think it fits well in the game now. I would like to do a similar thing with this concept, since it is actually an old concept in Tremor I scrapped. But, and this can not be said too many times, if nothing good comes out of this I will scrap it!
Anyways, what is the Zerg player actually paying for? 200/200 to build 1 Nydus Nest. That Nydus nest can spawn 1 nydus worm at target creep location for 100/100 and 8 supply. It has a cooldown of 150 seconds. The Nydus takes 10 seconds to build and lives only a few seconds. During that time it spawns a wave of for example 7 roaches that lives 20 seconds.. Is that a fair deal?
7 roaches = 1015 HP
7 roaches, each with an attack speed of 2 seconds, deal 16 dmg per shot. If they live for 20 seconds and starts to attack from birth, thats 1120 damage in total!
Remeber that they die after 20 seconds!
Those 300/300 might instead be used to build 2 lurkers or 3 mutalisks or 4-5 hydras or another expansion.. And they are permanent.. I think the benefit of Nydus Nest is the versatility it offers. You pay for the ability to be able to spawn reinforcements where you want..
If we look at the Nuke.. Its a lottery where you try to fix the circumstances. If the circumstances are good, you can destroy stuff worth way more than 100/100. But most of the time you will not blow anything up. You can however force the opponent out of an area, which is an indirect benefit of a nuke.
I assume that a similar factor is true for the Nydus too. As you say, most of the time you will probably not kill anything with the Roaches.. You will just force the enemy away. But if you fix the circumstances, for example during a siege, during a drop, during a harass at an expansion or in areas on the battlefield where you manages to get 2-3 nyduses up behind the enemy army, you can get good value out of that 100/100 cost.
I am thinking about the limit. I like when limits makes sense, so to say. For example that you can only store 1 nuke in each nuclear silo. Or 1 Queen per hatchery.. Adding a restriction of 3 Nydus nests does not really have an explanation. If I restrict it by lair or hives, that kinda changes a fundamental thing in the Zerg race: the fact that the lair/hive is no longer just a tech building. Its something you need more of.. Hmm..
If we look at other powerful stuff in SC2 without limits.. Infested Terran.. 10 Infestors could destroy a complete expansion within seconds? 1 Nydus worm in the enemy base could move your entire army there?
Adding a limitation is to prevent certains scenarios in the game to happen. What is the worst case scenario?
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"I want all races to have a defence that benefits from attention by the player. As Terran, you can stim units inside the bunkers & put SCVs to repair bunkers and turrets. As Zerg, you can transfuse your spine crawlers. Protoss had nothing like that. Now Protoss can, if they are quick, boost their defence a bit by chrono boosting the cannons at the right time. Chrono boost gets a broader use too."
you realize terran has to make units to put in there and research stim?
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On August 25 2012 02:54 Team .SCA wrote:
"I want all races to have a defence that benefits from attention by the player. As Terran, you can stim units inside the bunkers & put SCVs to repair bunkers and turrets. As Zerg, you can transfuse your spine crawlers. Protoss had nothing like that. Now Protoss can, if they are quick, boost their defence a bit by chrono boosting the cannons at the right time. Chrono boost gets a broader use too."
you realize terran has to make units to put in there and research stim?
Im not in the mood for trolling.
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Kabel, thanks for this. Even though I haven't gotten a chance to play much of this (the recent patches), I like to follow your logic and innovations. I wish Blizzard has the same mindset as you do. I'm just really depress after seeing their plans for HOTS. It's not even the units themselves that bother me that much, but rather their overall approach to game design. Everything seems so plain and boring. One example is the Oracle, Protoss lacks ability to harrass so they just add a units that freezes all the mineral patches. Where's the fun and excitement in that? Sorry, I digress Thanks again.
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On August 25 2012 02:56 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:54 Team .SCA wrote:
"I want all races to have a defence that benefits from attention by the player. As Terran, you can stim units inside the bunkers & put SCVs to repair bunkers and turrets. As Zerg, you can transfuse your spine crawlers. Protoss had nothing like that. Now Protoss can, if they are quick, boost their defence a bit by chrono boosting the cannons at the right time. Chrono boost gets a broader use too."
you realize terran has to make units to put in there and research stim? Im not in the mood for trolling.
Neither am I. It was just the only thing that caught my eye looking through the notes, everything else I agree with.
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Hey. I suggest adjusting the selection priority for the units. Specially the casters. When you select groups of units the casters' command cards should have preference.
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On August 25 2012 06:58 Team .SCA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:56 Kabel wrote:On August 25 2012 02:54 Team .SCA wrote:
"I want all races to have a defence that benefits from attention by the player. As Terran, you can stim units inside the bunkers & put SCVs to repair bunkers and turrets. As Zerg, you can transfuse your spine crawlers. Protoss had nothing like that. Now Protoss can, if they are quick, boost their defence a bit by chrono boosting the cannons at the right time. Chrono boost gets a broader use too."
you realize terran has to make units to put in there and research stim? Im not in the mood for trolling. Neither am I. It was just the only thing that caught my eye looking through the notes, everything else I agree with.
your comment didn't contribute to, criticize or add to the subject which the quote speaks of.
the comment you quoted talk about defense which benefit from being attended to by the player.
your comment talks about comparisons between the races basic defensive options.
since it's so out of context, it isn't strange to assume trolling.
to actually answer the question: "you realize terran has to make units to put in there and research stim?"
yes. he knows. he also knows the following:
zerg only needs hatcheries for production.
protoss can reduce the research time on upgrades with chrono boost.
terran can get detection and scouting which cannot be denied by the opponent.
zerg units are generally faster than other units.
protoss can produce units anywhere with pylon power.
terran buildings can fly.
different races are different.
On August 25 2012 03:28 ktfever wrote:Kabel, thanks for this. Even though I haven't gotten a chance to play much of this (the recent patches), I like to follow your logic and innovations. I wish Blizzard has the same mindset as you do. I'm just really depress after seeing their plans for HOTS. It's not even the units themselves that bother me that much, but rather their overall approach to game design. Everything seems so plain and boring. One example is the Oracle, Protoss lacks ability to harrass so they just add a units that freezes all the mineral patches. Where's the fun and excitement in that? Sorry, I digress Thanks again.
as far as I now (and I have done my research) the reason why so many people disagree with the choices blizzard is taking is because they are trying to create something new.
when I look at the choices that developers make I try to see the intent behind why it happened. if there is any plausible explanation, any at all then I will generally support the choice (odds are the developers have done their research thoroughly, I don't need to do it as well).
it's the principle of innocent until proven otherwise. no matter how much people bash the developers for what they did, the only way to truly invalidate a developers choice of action is to prove their motivation wrong or invalid.
and so far none of the changes that blizzard have made the last few years have been without good reason.
though there are some things they hold on to with perhaps unnecessary stubborness, those are all things which are intended to make the game better and are confirmed will never change. for example:
multiple building selection/unlimited controlgroup selections/smartcast/improved pathfinding
why did they add it you ask? it makes the game noob-friendly you say?
exactly. it makes it easier to channel your intent into the game and have it happen. is this bad? absolutely not. ease of use is among the most basic signs of good design, not of bad design. blizzards intent is to have the game be a battle between the minds of the players, not a struggle to make the game do what you want.
as a matter of fact, looking objectively at SC BW compared to SC2 WoL then WoL beats BW by a landslide in user interface design.
the game does what you want it to do quickly, efficiently and responsively. dumbing down the AI, which is what most SC BW fans and amateurs want blizzard to do is an extremely artificial and design-wise bad way of introducing difficulty.
guess why BW had a limit of 1 building selection? because they didn't think it was necessary with any more. that's the only reason. in previous games the fact that you couldn't control more than 1 building was not a problem, there were other problems that far out-shined that.
guess why BW had a limit of 12 units? they looked at the problem of the selection being small and decided to make it bigger, but then they thought it looked ugly to have all of the units walk around together, so to make them spread out more they limited it to 12. thats right. when developing starcraft 1 they considered unlimited unit selection and chose to not use it. the reason was to avoid the deathball syndrome by making the deathball harder to manage. fun fact: SC BW in the early days was nothing but deathballs anyway.
did you know that several employees at blizzard resigned during the development for SC1 because they thought it focused too much on clicking fast rather than strategic choices?
they hit the nail on the head. the reason why SC BW is so strategically deep today has little to do with its design, it has to do with the fact that the metagame have developed for years and years. SC BW didn't have deep strategy in the early years. similar to modern SC2 it took a while before the metagame was fairly stable in BW. many BW fans ignore this.
don't get me wrong, I love SC BW and I think its an awesome game. but I think SC2 after the expansions will be an improvement over its grandfather, even if that is not the case right now.
however, I very much dislike fanatical fans. they tend to blind themselves with ignorance just because they identify differences and scream "what I liked was better!"
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But Roblin, with all due respect, you cant possibly think pathfinding in SC2 is the way it should be. Dont you feel disgusted when you see 50 units humping eachothers back while moving. While it is a technical improvement, I think they made the wrong choice leaving it that way. Same like they made the concious decision of capping unit selection to 12 in BW, while being able to make it unlimited, they should've made the units not push eachother when moving or anything of the sort. This wouldnt cause the user to battle the interface, it would just be a design preferance rather than a technical one.
I agree with other points you made, but pathing, I just cant get over that. Infact I'd go as far as saying that its the primary factor that limited them to designing such straight-forward/ onedimensional/ not OP units and mechanics.
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Thank you for your input Roblin. I'm actually not a BW fanatic and am not trying to compare BW to SC2. I'm just speaking in term of the current sc2 situation and how I find tournament games less and less enjoyable due to stale matchups and limited strategies. Units like broodlords and collosus are just boring to watch. I'm not sure if Blizzard is aware of that and brushing it aside or just oblivious. In any case, I'm not without hope and I truly wish it will get better with HOTS and LOTV.
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On August 25 2012 09:15 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 06:58 Team .SCA wrote:On August 25 2012 02:56 Kabel wrote:On August 25 2012 02:54 Team .SCA wrote:
"I want all races to have a defence that benefits from attention by the player. As Terran, you can stim units inside the bunkers & put SCVs to repair bunkers and turrets. As Zerg, you can transfuse your spine crawlers. Protoss had nothing like that. Now Protoss can, if they are quick, boost their defence a bit by chrono boosting the cannons at the right time. Chrono boost gets a broader use too."
you realize terran has to make units to put in there and research stim? Im not in the mood for trolling. Neither am I. It was just the only thing that caught my eye looking through the notes, everything else I agree with. your comment didn't contribute to, criticize or add to the subject which the quote speaks of. the comment you quoted talk about defense which benefit from being attended to by the player. your comment talks about comparisons between the races basic defensive options. since it's so out of context, it isn't strange to assume trolling. to actually answer the question: "you realize terran has to make units to put in there and research stim?" yes. he knows. he also knows the following: zerg only needs hatcheries for production. protoss can reduce the research time on upgrades with chrono boost. terran can get detection and scouting which cannot be denied by the opponent. zerg units are generally faster than other units. protoss can produce units anywhere with pylon power. terran buildings can fly. different races are different. Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 03:28 ktfever wrote:Kabel, thanks for this. Even though I haven't gotten a chance to play much of this (the recent patches), I like to follow your logic and innovations. I wish Blizzard has the same mindset as you do. I'm just really depress after seeing their plans for HOTS. It's not even the units themselves that bother me that much, but rather their overall approach to game design. Everything seems so plain and boring. One example is the Oracle, Protoss lacks ability to harrass so they just add a units that freezes all the mineral patches. Where's the fun and excitement in that? Sorry, I digress Thanks again. as far as I now (and I have done my research) the reason why so many people disagree with the choices blizzard is taking is because they are trying to create something new. when I look at the choices that developers make I try to see the intent behind why it happened. if there is any plausible explanation, any at all then I will generally support the choice (odds are the developers have done their research thoroughly, I don't need to do it as well). it's the principle of innocent until proven otherwise. no matter how much people bash the developers for what they did, the only way to truly invalidate a developers choice of action is to prove their motivation wrong or invalid. and so far none of the changes that blizzard have made the last few years have been without good reason. though there are some things they hold on to with perhaps unnecessary stubborness, those are all things which are intended to make the game better and are confirmed will never change. for example: multiple building selection/unlimited controlgroup selections/smartcast/improved pathfinding why did they add it you ask? it makes the game noob-friendly you say? exactly. it makes it easier to channel your intent into the game and have it happen. is this bad? absolutely not. ease of use is among the most basic signs of good design, not of bad design. blizzards intent is to have the game be a battle between the minds of the players, not a struggle to make the game do what you want. as a matter of fact, looking objectively at SC BW compared to SC2 WoL then WoL beats BW by a landslide in user interface design. the game does what you want it to do quickly, efficiently and responsively. dumbing down the AI, which is what most SC BW fans and amateurs want blizzard to do is an extremely artificial and design-wise bad way of introducing difficulty. guess why BW had a limit of 1 building selection? because they didn't think it was necessary with any more. that's the only reason. in previous games the fact that you couldn't control more than 1 building was not a problem, there were other problems that far out-shined that. guess why BW had a limit of 12 units? they looked at the problem of the selection being small and decided to make it bigger, but then they thought it looked ugly to have all of the units walk around together, so to make them spread out more they limited it to 12. thats right. when developing starcraft 1 they considered unlimited unit selection and chose to not use it. the reason was to avoid the deathball syndrome by making the deathball harder to manage. fun fact: SC BW in the early days was nothing but deathballs anyway. did you know that several employees at blizzard resigned during the development for SC1 because they thought it focused too much on clicking fast rather than strategic choices? they hit the nail on the head. the reason why SC BW is so strategically deep today has little to do with its design, it has to do with the fact that the metagame have developed for years and years. SC BW didn't have deep strategy in the early years. similar to modern SC2 it took a while before the metagame was fairly stable in BW. many BW fans ignore this. don't get me wrong, I love SC BW and I think its an awesome game. but I think SC2 after the expansions will be an improvement over its grandfather, even if that is not the case right now. however, I very much dislike fanatical fans. they tend to blind themselves with ignorance just because they identify differences and scream "what I liked was better!"
I don't think many people EXCEPT for extreme fanatics, would want to bring back being able to select only 1 building, having to tell each worker to mine and dumbing down AI. I don't dislike SC2 because it has kept up with the times. The truth is that Broodwar is light years ahead of SC2 currently. It is far deeper and far more exciting to watch. Maybe that will one day change as SC2 updates, but there are no reasons to believe that it will. Looking at Hots, there are no signs of anything core about the game changing. Fights will still happen in a blink of an eye. No real high ground advantage. No unique play between races. Units that will still purposely clump up, and units which are obviously of worse design than previous units. I don't want AI dumbed down, I just want units to feel different when controlling them. Why do units purposely clump up when a simple number change in the map editor stops that from happening? Why is the Collosus in the game when almost everyone agrees it's extremely boring and terrible when compared to what it replaced. What's so creative about a protoss unit that can shoot for so far away that you can't even see it on the field. And that replaces the Carrier? Which was way more creative. It's complete bull when Blizzard tries to argue that the Carrier wasn't too useful so we replaced it. Oh, so I guess Blizzard doesn't have the ability to buff the Carrier in any way? They just wanted to put in a new unit, that's the truth. I don't mind new units, but if they have worse design than the previous ones then why replace them? TvT had some positioning play with tanks, and now Blizzard says here, this new unit allows you to 1a into tanks. Now all races and matchups are equally dumbed down. Fungals, Marauders, Forcefields, Small maps, all killing micro. Stupid artificial macro mechanics. Explain the custom maps that do nothing but add real micro to units, and yet Blizzard cannot or doesn't want to add those things. Don't even get me started on the Oracle... just wow. And people that say "Hey that might not even make it into the game, we haven't started beta yet!". So what? The fact that this unit would make it so far into design that it has been presented to the public multiple times says a lot about the direction Blizzard wants to take the game in.
The excuse that SC2 is still in its early years is not true. SC2 had an extremely huge and massive head start to BW. People came into that game trying to figure it out right away, with full knowledge of how RTS games work and with all the knowledge of BW. With a pro scene emerging even during beta, and competitive 1v1 ladder matchmaking from the start. SC2 won't get much deeper if core things about it don't change. Unlimited unit selection has very little to do with the deathball either. This is very easy to test. Play SC2 and simply DON'T select all of your army but separate them into groups like BW. And watch as they still feel dry hump each other on their way to their destination. A simple number change in the map editor fixes that, which Starbow already implemented. Map sizes just make the clumping even worse. I'm all for creating something new, but Blizzard is just creating something worse. No choices made by Blizzard without good reason? What about NO high ground mechanic? Or the purposely clumping units? The only things you mentioned that Blizzard did right are basic things that almost everyone agrees were the right choices.
I see the direction that they're taking SC2 in and I along with many others don't like it. Unless there is a major overhaul in design, I don't think this game is going anywhere, not for me at least. SC2 will be successful no matter what Blizzard does though, since most people will still buy their games and there will always be people to defend bad decisions(I don't mean you, I mean hardcore Blizz fans). I don't know much about Kabel, and maybe he's the right guy to be doing this type of thing, maybe not, but regardless he's got the right idea. Take it upon yourself to make the game you want to see. Of the games I've played in Starbow, I find it way more fun and deeper than SC2.
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Well said @ above.
Jeez why can't Blizzard hire TC already.
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