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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
A lot more Banshees (They are better vs armored than vs medium. Dragoons are not that good vs them) This is a bit interesting indeed. Dragoons only deal 10 damage vs them, so I guess mixing in banshee's will be quite efficient in the midgame. Btw nullsphre range is bugged. Not sure whether you will fix this is in this patch. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
@Bugs Mines Sentinel trap Corsairs All their aoe is bugged quite heavy. When the spells/hits deal damage at the same time or close to each other, they receive only damage from one Stalker vs goliath with new stats on stalker Quite even fight. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Its 44 seconds It nags me in teh back! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
If the BT on a certain unit in both BW and Sbow is the same, then it will be produced 38% faster in Sbow due to Sbow being played at a faster level. Econ is also 38% higher in real time minutes in Sbow, so the ratio of BT on units to income is higher in Sbow, but macro'ing is acutally harder as you need to produce units more frequently in Sbow. This means that the whole game is actually speeded up by 38% relative to BW.... Is this desireable or not? Should we reduce income by 38% and increase BT by 38% (to get BW-speed), go for a middleway or? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Sbow: 1.38~ BW: 1.68~ The Buildtime you see here on liquipedia is in normal gamespeed Also, the income tab do not show one real minute, it show a "minute of starbow" 60/1.38=43 | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On September 27 2013 08:25 Foxxan wrote: Sbow gamespeed is lower than broodwar Sbow: 1.38~ BW: 1.68~ The Buildtime you see here on liquipedia is in normal gamespeed Normal gamespeed as in 1.0? So for instance if a BT on a unit in liquidipedia says 45 seconds for a BW unit, then the real time BT is 45/1.68 (?) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Nine is fine, seven is broken seven range= Outranged by goliath and emp In bw, statis outranged both | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I still think there is something strange with it. In the last game where no macro mechanics were used to speed up worker production, Terran was maxed around 20-25 ingame minutes and had a bank of several thousands. That equals ca 15-20 minutes in BW, since BW use a real time clock. And I have never seen a BW game where players are maxed out and have a fortune in the bank so early in the game. Protoss had 3500 income per minute on 4 bases who were not even fully saturated But again, I am by no means an expert on the BW economy. I am just suspicious that there is something we have missed. Or shall the economy really be this super fast? @Regarding saturation time I have done some testing now. I use SC2 seconds, since I tried this in the editor. Worker BT in Sbow and BW is 18 seconds. To build from 0 to 24 workers takes 18x24 = 432 SC2 seconds. In BW, there was no rally to mineral patches. Which means that each worker had to be ordered to start mining. And this added even longer saturation time. A pro-player who timed every new built worker, and immediately ordered it to start working, would get faster saturation than a mediocre player. Hence, the highest possible pace to saturate a base was 432 seconds. But in reality it was slower, due to players not being robots. The macro mechanincs (Calldown SCV, Inject, Chrono boost) in Sbow are partly meant to represent that factor. A better player will be able to squeeze out some extra workers, compared to a mediocre player. Plus each of those mechanics have other usage too, besides just massing workers. So there is a decision involved in each of them. Chrono P can use Chrono boost every 40 sec. (It takes 40 sec to regenerate 25 energy.) Each Chrono boost saves 7.5 seconds of time. Assuming P uses it constantly on his Nexus, he can produce 24 workers in ca 345 seconds. Calldown SCV T can use Calldown SCV every 40 second due to energy regeneration. Each Calldown SCV gives 1 SCV every 40 second. Assuming T uses it constantly, he can produce 24 workers in ca 281 seconds. Inject Z can use Inject every 40 second. Assuming Z uses it constantly, and produces workers from 1 Hatchery non-stop, he can produce 24 workers in ca 270 seconds. I tried it in the editor. Things to note: 1.) Chrono boost is worse. 2.) Bases are saturated ca 30-40% faster, compared to BW. We can do two things: 1.) Either tune down the effect of the macro mechanics. (For example Caldown SCV 45 seconds cooldown, Inject increases larva spawn rate by 40% etc. We can surely find good numbers quite easily.) 2.) Increase the build time of workers. If BT is for example 22 seconds instead, we come much closer to BW values. Good use of macro mechanics is still faster than BW saturation. No use of macro mechanics equals slower saturation. And yes, we can ofc just remove Calldown SCV, Calldown Supply, Chrono boost, Inject & Nurturing Swarm all together. Which I think would make the game much more lame. And a lot more like BW. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On September 27 2013 08:37 Foxxan wrote: NO Nine is fine, seven is broken seven range= Outranged by goliath and emp In bw, statis outranged both Vs Goliaths, you can cast the projectile and move back while only taking one volley from the Goliaths. Im not sure it was much different in BW ( since it was kinda locked for a short period before it could cast Stasis as I understand). Vs SV. You can only EMP the Arbiter before it gets a Stais off if you predict where the Arbiter will be a couple of seconds from now on and cast an extremely precise EMP in that location. Due to the low AOE of EMP, that is very very challenging to do in real battles. Since EMP overall also feels slightly less useful in battles than in BW (lower radius), I don't mind that it is slightly more rewarding vs Arbiters. Not that I can't see it turn out to a an issue eventually, but I wouldn't call it broken. Especially not once Sentinels get the Phase Missile.  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
2.) Bases are saturated ca 30-40% faster, compared to BW. But even in the game me and Dirty tested without macromechanics , I was maxed with a 5k bank at like 25 minute mark (ingame time). Thats like 18 minute real time. Is that only due to automining (aka I macro better in Sbow than Flash does in BW?). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Terran was maxed around 20-25 ingame minutes and had a bank of several thousands. That equals ca 15-20 minutes in BW, since BW use a real time clock No it dont. BW is faster than starbow, remember? BW do not use a realtime clock. You watch streams? What they show there is a realtime clock, its not located inside broodwar. We can do two things I like the suggestion one. Suggestion two i despice. And hidden suggestion three, i would like also. The last game i played versus hider (we used no eco booster), it felt nice actually. More strategy, and more mini battles. You saw that small vulture vs dragoon battle? That thing never happened before ever in an "even fight" like this. Terran were out on the map doing stuff, and i could also be out there doing stuff(if i played better). | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
This was done on match point. 3 bases. 18 workers per base. First base 9 patches, second 7, third 8. I ran a timer for five minutes and the wrote down income at the end of those five minutes. Current Starbow Setting (mining time=4.412, return delay=1) 16432 after five minutes of mining. bw 18 per 13130 I changed mining time to 5.412 and removed the return delay 18 per 13472 I think we have our winner! They bounced more often, simply put. This is basically the sort of eco Hider got up on three bases (18 per). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Vs Goliaths, you can cast the projectile and move back while only taking one volley from the Goliaths. Im not sure it was much different in BW I need more testing. The differences right now is: 1) Turrets detection range much wider=Much harder for protoss to scout where the enemy units are. 2) Statis = two range lower, but almost instant cast. SV also has easier to cast his spell. The arbiter needs to move very close now, in bw he didnt. I will argue and say that even if the arbiter died in bw, he still casted his spell. (Not always) Also, the smartcasting for arbiters is not as good as for hightemplars or something like that. 1) You dont want the arbiters tight upped 2) You want them individually placed(kind of) to do harass move | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 27 2013 09:00 decemberscalm wrote: Alright guys I did some tests. This was done on match point. 3 bases. 18 workers per base. First base 9 patches, second 7, third 8. I ran a timer for five minutes and the wrote down income at the end of those five minutes. Current Starbow Setting (mining time=4.412, return delay=1) 16432 after five minutes of mining. bw 18 per 13130 I changed mining time to 5.412 and removed the return delay 18 per 13472 I think we have our winner! They bounced more often, simply put. This is basically the sort of eco Hider got up on three bases (18 per). Xiphias already pointed out that the second worker gives more. I wonder now, what will happen to the third worker? I think there is a reason xiphias did the second worker more than in bw because: 1) Otherwise the third worker wouldnt work(?) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
But even in the game me and Dirty tested without macromechanics , I was maxed with a 5k bank at like 25 minute mark (ingame time). Thats like 18 minute real time. Is that only due to automining? Saturation time should not matter at that point of time in the game. That is just basically the time it takes for an expansion to go from 0% efficiency to 100% efficiency in income? Auto-mining is just a small factor that helps to speed up that process. (I do NOT mean that we should remove auto-mining! I just mention it as a small time related factor. ) But yeah, hmm. (aka I macro better in Sbow than Flash does in BW?). Everyone in Starbow macros better than Flash does in BW. Even I do that. Just have all production buildings on one hotkey and hold the button for the typ of unit you want to produce. There is no way Flash could be so efficient in BW. :p That is why I prefer to have macro mechanics like Chrono boost, Nurturing Swarm etc. It is not the same thing, but it at least gives some kind of skill difference. Especially if the abilities also have some decisions involved in them. That is also why I tried to "spread" out units on several structures. (Immortal on Robotic bay, different units on Warpgate & Gateway.) More different types of structures equals more production management. Stuff I consider skill related at least ^^ Especially not once Sentinels get the Phase Missile. Stalkers are gonna get them :B No it dont. BW is faster than starbow, remember? BW do not use a realtime clock. You watch streams? What they show there is a realtime clock, its not located inside broodwar. Ah yeah true, its an external clock yes. 1) Turrets detection range much wider=Much harder for protoss to scout where the enemy units are. How can it be harder when Observers have one of the best abilities in the game? + Show Spoiler + Alright guys I did some tests. This was done on match point. 3 bases. 18 workers per base. First base 9 patches, second 7, third 8. I ran a timer for five minutes and the wrote down income at the end of those five minutes. Current Starbow Setting (mining time=4.412, return delay=1) 16432 after five minutes of mining. bw 18 per 13130 I changed mining time to 5.412 and removed the return delay 18 per 13472 I think we have our winner! They bounced more often, simply put. This is basically the sort of eco Hider got up on three bases (18 per).  Edit: The last game i played versus hider (we used no eco booster), it felt nice actually. More strategy, and more mini battles. You saw that small vulture vs dragoon battle? That thing never happened before ever in an "even fight" like this. Terran were out on the map doing stuff, and i could also be out there doing stuff(if i played better). But where is the correlation between macro mechanics and the mini battles? Why did we see more mini battles and more strategy just because eco boosters were not used in that game? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
it be harder when Observers have one of the best abilities in the game What? It lasts 30seconds right? Enemy can still target it? I need to have the observer at 11-12 sight outside of a turret compared to eight. Terran can easily form a "defence" which i have no idea where he units are. Much harder to engage | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Xiphias already pointed out that the second worker gives more. According to Xiphias math, BW income was 1/0.6 while Sbow econ shuold be 1/0.73. That "small" of a difference doesn't explain the gigantic differences in Dec's test. Why did we see more mini battles and more strategy just because eco boosters were not used in that game? Cus I could afford a shitton of Vultures. With previous econs, Vultures weren't that expendables. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
But where is the correlation between macro mechanics and the mini battles? Why did we see more mini battles and more strategy just because eco boosters were not used in that game? Because with ecobooster, you focus much more on pumping out workers Without, you need to make units since u cant make as much workers. So more battles happens naturally According to Xiphias math, BW income was 1/0.6 while Sbow econ shuold be 1/0.73. That "small" of a difference doesn't explain the gigantic differences in Dec's test. Not to sure actually. Five minutes the difference was 3k. Doesnt sound to drastic to me | ||
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