EPT[A] Starbow - Page 421
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Not to sure actually. Five minutes the difference was 3k. Doesnt sound to drastic to me Its a difference of roughly 20%. I think according to Xiphias math the difference should only be like 10%. Because with ecobooster, you focus much more on pumping out workers Yes in early game. But ecoboosters quickly pays off, and already in the early midgame you should be able to afford more vultures than in you hadn't used them. So ecoboosters should actually incentivize more Vulture battles in the midgame. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Yes in early game No, not only in the early game, you do it in middle game also. We have played very few matches. I hope eco boosters give more action. But imagine this: 1) You focus your macro on those workers, 3base. 2) You reach full saturation 3) While doing this, you are using your defnedersadvantage to your service. Also, you put up decent defence around your bases, and go heavy on production buildings. This might cause "bigger battles", since everything is so tight defended for everyone. You can reach 70workers, very fast. Like 50% faster or something. Since u focus so heavy on workers, you will have lesser production buildings than if u didnt focus that much on them | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
3k is 40 vultures. It definently helps to explain why getting to 200/200 is easier. Ye, ofcourse it do. Its suppoused to be more on two workers, remember? Its a difference of roughly 20%. I think according to Xiphias math the difference should only be like 10% Hm ok | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
But imagine this: 1) You focus your macro on those workers, 3base. 2) You reach full saturation 3) While doing this, you are using your defnedersadvantage to your service. Also, you put up decent defence around your bases, and go heavy on production buildings. I kinda stop using them that much post 10-11 minute mark. At that period I already have 50 workers or so, and you begin to get diminishing marginal returns of the scv investment. I still use it a bit, but I don't focus on it (it doesn't take priority over producing units constantly), and at that time my income would be higher than it otherwise would have been if I hadn't used ecoboosters early game. I think there comes a time where supply calldown is a better investment, and its also very possible that for toss using chrono on upgrades is better in the midgame as well. So the way I play, I am very much certain that I can afford much more stuff with in the midgame with ecoboosters than if I didn't use them. So basically it all comes down to A) Match Point being a better Vulture harass map than FS, and B) Super super high mineral on the 2 maps we played today. Though in terms of early game, ecoboosters definitely reduces vulture harass. As you say, I just focus on defense, rather than high Vulture count. I think its nice that mineral income is higher than it previoulsy was, but the current rates are simply way too high. There really isn't any way ( I belive) terran can lose since he has the best mineral dumb. | ||
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
Would this not be preferable? To accomplish this I suppose the Worker BT has to be increased but I can not really figure out by how much. =/ On September 27 2013 08:46 Kabel wrote: Bases are saturated ca 30-40% faster, compared to BW. Dunno if I'm misquoting but this seems pretty off. :'O I don't like it though, lots of units gets acquired too quickly and blobs of units form easier with less focus on bases. The 10% was just a number of course but something like that would be cool. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
More multitasking and crazy. Also remember, without ecobooster the opening phase gets more agressive. Instead of focus so much on woekrs, you make more production buildings. Time will tell however, I think its nice that mineral income is higher than it previoulsy was, but the current rates were simply way too high. There really isn't any way ( I belive) terran can lose since he has the best mineral dumb. With goon on 1.75 speed, and turrets less detection(less important but still a factor) I disagree. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Also remember, without ecobooster the opening phase gets more agressive. Instead of focus so much on woekrs, you make more production buildings. Time will tell But I think it also very well may be possible that different terrans will play in a different way. Some terrans may prefer to just supply calldown may actively and simply focus on getting out more Vultures pre 10 minute mark to harass the protoss player. I still think that style is very viable. And ofc terran has a better gas-intensive harass option in the banshee now. So I still see action as a possbility early game. If any nerf to terrans ecobooster, I would like to see starting energy of OC reduced to 25 energy. That will actually make DT rushes somewhat stronger against a "greedy terrans" as he doens't have enough energy energy to both call down scvs's and a scan (he does that now). And ofc it also forces the terran to save up energy if he wants to scan the opponents base. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
It may actually be more action with ecoboosters overall, we dont know this yet. Right now, it feels like less action. Though, we have played like 5games total only. Play more tomorrow @ecoboosters imagine if all starting with 0energy. More decision? | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
The triggers are only for drones right now. Oh god. Ahahahaha. That explains soooo much. We had sc2 workers pretty much (no bouncing). | ||
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
On September 27 2013 10:22 decemberscalm wrote: AHAHAHAHAHAH. The triggers are only for drones right now. Oh god. Ahahahaha. That explains soooo much. We had sc2 workers pretty much (no bouncing). DAMNIT DEUCE!!! :D | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
I blame xiphias!!! :D | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
This is with the new triggers and mining time (aka what zerg has right now). 5 minute tests on a single base with 8 patches. 1 per 2890 1.5 per 3882 2 per patch 5266 2.5 per 5746 3 per patch 5954 Brood War values 1 per patch 2600 1.5 per patch 3962 2 per patch 4450 2.5 per patch 5186 3 per patch 5826 | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Well, that was a HUGE nerf to zerg, no wonder people were complaining about the stalker.... Or... more like a huge buff to terran and toss. But. I anyhow will do some testing with 5.whatever that other number was with 0 return delay and see if there is soemthing left for the third worker. I'll have some time tonight. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Well, that was a HUGE nerf to zerg, no wonder people were complaining about the stalker.... Or... more like a huge buff to terran and toss. Not sure thats true actually. A cost efficient stalker (vs zerg early on) makes it possible for protoss to take map control (or at least fight for it) which means they can start mining from a 3rd base before or at roughly the same time as the zerg. Anyway, with the new econ, terran will still be able to afford a lot more Vultures than he previoulsy could --> Which potentially could force/reward Stalker play. So I actually think the Stalker may still see a lot of usage vs mech. Since blink vs mech doesn't scale particularly well (its easier to efficiently blink on top of tanks with fewer Stalkers than when you have lots of them), I think it is likely that protoss's will mix in both Dragoons and Stalkers, which is pretty nice. @Balance So assuming eco gets fixed, we can then start to concentrate on some of the balance issues. Area's that needs to be improved/fixed; - 14 CC --> Easy solution is to abandon it as that build isn't consistent with macro mechanics (regardless of whether they get nerfed or not) - Siege tank research time increased. Don't think the entire 36 seconds is needed as there are costs related to not being able to produce out of the barrack (when you get the add-on on the barrack), and there are also some seconds spent with the lift-off thing. 25 second increase time is probably a good estimate for the "correct" value. - Vulture BT increased to 35 seconds - A needed nerf as it can be produced out of reactors now. - Detection ranges of static defenses. I don't see the argument for not going with BW values here. - Roaches as a tier 1 unit that can make it possible for zerg to deflect stalker pressure without killing a protoss player at the same time. - Increase the utility of Sentinel vs Zerg --> Phase Missile would do well here as a way to beat Queens  - Planetary --> Out. - Bio vs protoss --> I think this is a big mess atm. Lots of areas to look at; 1) Maurauder switch mode should either be removed or just take a long time to switch it. 2) Medi also need to heal better while moving 3) Slow-Zealots need real utility. Don't think Maurauder switch mode removal/nerf is enough as terran can still kite it very easily without taking any damage from them. And this means that protoss can never take a straight up fight vs bio without AOE. I wonder what would happen if the movement speed of slowlots was increased a bit (assuming Roach gets added to balance it in ZvP). 4) If the above 3 changes goes through it may still be the case that Medi healing is simply too good untill AOE is out. Thus, it simply makes a damn lot of sense that protoss gets easier access to Phase Missile. When Phase Missile is on a cheaper unit, we can also make it avoidable, which adds more micro to the game. @ Map balance - The frost-map is obv. not a BW-balanced map and I believe it should be scrapped. - The Sbow version of Match Point is imbalanced as well. In BW it didn't have a middle base and it was much more open. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Test map uploaded. - Roach at Tier 1 - Marauder has no splash weapon. - Hellbat can be trained from Factory. - Sentinel can use Phase Missile. - Scouts can not use Phase Missile. - Fixed economy here too I added this really quick since I am off to work soon. I will be back late tonight. Roaches stats may be way off since I did not test them properly. I did not have time to fix Firebat weapon model + splash area. Who knows. Maybe Hellbat is more fun anyway. I did not add any balance changes to neither map, like changed BT on Vultures, Tank research time or anything. I want to see how the economy unfolds before any further detailed changes are made. Gl hf | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
- Vulture BT increased to 35 seconds - A needed nerf as it can be produced out of reactors now. Iam not a fan of this. This is actually almost a 10BT increase. This would mean less action overall. Reactor is actually very huge for terran, but increasing buildtime doesnt compensate for it. Terran have 200minerals and 100gas. He makes a factory, when he have enough min/gas for a reactor, he makes it on the baracks and lifts it. When factory is done, he lifts it on the factory and now it behaves like two factory. So he now have "two factories ready at the same time for less cost" Compare that to this: He makes a factory. When he have 200/100 min/Gas, he makes another factory: 1) He lose mining time, with the second scv making the factory 2) The two factories comes later, compared to factory+reactor play 3) 150/50 cheaper in cost, factory alone 4) This is very huge in the early stages If reactor stays, the other races should be compensated. Nerf to vulture BT is, not enough...atleast its a boring solution | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Iam not a fan of this. This is actually almost a 10BT increase. Its a 5 second build time increase? I did not have time to fix Firebat weapon model + splash area. Who knows. Maybe Hellbat is more fun anyway. Firebat is needed for early game tvz? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Did you read my suggestion for sentinels first spell? 25mana cost, triggers when an enemy is 5-7 range nearby Three second detonation time, then it locks on enemy. Fly in a straight line towards its target up to 15range, aoe attack. Enemy can dodge it by moving left or right. If he runs backwards he get hit. The spell slows a bit, but not eight seconds. Maybe three seconds If enemy is not nearby the 5-7range when the spell is casted, the spell dies. This is to make it a more reactionary spell for both enemy and protoss itself. Less cooldown on the spell, alot less. Around 6second cooldown. With this suggestion, i think its a valid option for protoss to go for sentinels against zerg. 1) It gives scout 2) it gives utility versus hydras, and mutas Should the spell be able to be killed? Yes, probably. Not to easy tho, around 50hp, armored. 2.5 shots from goliath. Five shots from hydra The goliath might be able to kill it very easy. FOr hydras, its a decision. Spell would work wonders in pvp since dragoons shoot slow. We could atleast test it on the testmap. Also, what about his safegaurd? Some spell that is not imba against mech, but useful at the same time would be very nice @unit testmap Doesnt work, same error as before. Did you try and do what johhny wrote to you? He wrote a link, a few days ago. Before saturday last week or something. He said "easy fix", and than provided a link. Would be so useful if we could test this map | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Its a 5 second build time increase? Its 26build time right now? | ||
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