EPT[A] Starbow - Page 419
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Reapers & Banshees are Light now. Marines have 45 HP. Those three units can exploit Dragoons better now. (Earlier Goons were as strong as Stalkers vs all of those units, compared to the Stalker.) Stalkers kill Vultures 25% faster than Dragoons. Earlier they were almost as good as Dragoons. Marauder, Tank > Stalker (Not a massacre though, due to Stalkers armor class) Stalker > Reaper, Banshee, Marine, SCV Marine, Banshee, SCV, Reaper > Dragoon (Reapers do not kill Dragoons, but they can do more harass in P base) Dragoon <> Marauder, Tank Keep in mind micro determines this a lot. Mixing in 1-2 Zealots soaks up good dmg from Marauders. (Especially since I consider to remove the weapon switch) Early Sentinels is always a risk for T. Stalkers are medium. Makes them better vs Hydras. And Dragoons for PvP. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On September 27 2013 02:23 Xiphias wrote: Well, the dragoon got a dps nerf. attack speed is now 2 instead of 1.75. Let's try out the changes tonight! I have some rare time for a Thursday! So its a nerf to protoss? I mean you can match your efficiency vs marines and vs Vultures by mixing in Stalkers and Dragoons, but then your always weaker vs Tanks. Is this an intentional nerf? Earlier they were almost as good as Dragoons. But why would you mix in Stalkers now if you didn't wanna mix them in at the time where Immortals did 16 damage vs Normal (5-shotted Vultures). Back then Immortals were still weaker vs Vultures than Dragoons are now. Stalkers are medium. Interesting change. But then you go pure Stalkers vs bio right? Mixing in 1-2 Zealots soaks up good dmg from Marauders. You can test this is in the unit tester. But as protoss without AOE you should never fight straight up. You should simply kite all day due the "double-reward" of kiting vs MMM. Its true though that without the switch mode, it may be benefical to mix in a few zealots if opponent is very maurauder heavy. However, with Stalkers being medium, the need for a buffer-unit isn't so important for the Stalker anymore (esp since kiting makes bufer units oboslete). | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
So its a nerf to protoss? I mean you can match your efficiency vs marines and vs Vultures by mixing in Stalkers and Dragoons, but then your always weaker vs Tanks. Is this an intentional nerf? Dragoons had 2 second attack speed before this patch. But why would you mix in Stalkers now if you didn't wanna mix them in at the time where Immortals did 16 damage vs Normal (5-shotted Vultures). Back then Immortals were still weaker vs Vultures than Dragoons are now. Going pure Dragoons will probably be more common in TvP. As long as there are ways for T to punish that, or reasons for P to get Stalkers, then I think there will be potential for the match-up to evolve. But ofc, how large do we need to make the reasons for P to get Stalkers? Interesting change. But then you go pure Stalkers vs bio right? Depends on the composition, micro etc. When the unit tester gets updated, it will be easier for you all to explore it. You can test this is in the unit tester. But as protoss without AOE you should never fight straight up. You should simply kite all day due the "double-reward" of kiting vs MMM. Its true though that without the switch mode, it may be benefical to mix in a few zealots if opponent is very maurauder heavy. However, with Stalkers being medium, the need for a buffer-unit isn't so important for the Stalker anymore (esp since kiting makes bufer units oboslete). Yea I read your post about the kiting vs MMM a few pages back. Maybe Medics healing, speed, or some other factors needs to be slightly modified. ----- I did spend a couple of hours in the unit tester during the weekend, and I did some math, so its not like the small adjustements are out of the blue. I thought this would be the smallest possible changes to do, so we open up room for Stalkers in TvP and PvP, without messing with BW units balance. But if there are some flaws in it, then we must ofc look further into it! I upload the patch now so we can try it. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Dragoons had 2 second attack speed before this patch. Yes they had. But before last week it had a speed of roughly 1.8. THen you reduced attack speed of the Immortal to 2, and Dragoon attack speed was (for some reason) also reduced. Is this intentional? As long as there are ways for T to punish that, or reasons for P to get Stalkers, then I think there will be potential for the match-up to evolve. But ofc, how large do we need to make the reasons for P to get Stalkers? I don't think you can punish pure Stalker play reactively. It has to be with a blind bio opening timing attack, Im thinking a bit. What would happen if Vultures had more damage to armored than to Medium? This would make them noticeable better vs Dragoons than vs Stalkers, and would likely force a mix if Dragoons and Stalkers. Could this balance (balance issues aside). But regardless, I don't see what advantages you see of this over the scaled down Immortal + Stalker suggestion (?) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This ofc means that Dragoons are slightly worse than in BW. But in return, their AI here is muuuch better. And we do want to see both units seeing play. And I think a small nerf like this is better than reworking the values too much, which we have tried to do with Immortal/Stalker earlier. I don't think you can punish pure Stalker play reactively. It has to be with a blind bio opening timing attack, Lets try. Im thinking a bit. What would happen if Vultures had more damage to armored than to Medium? I can not do damage changes to BW values, due to the attack system we use from BW. Vultures deal concussive damage, which means they deal 100% vs light, 50% vs medium, 25% vs armored. And this "formula" is a part of the damage system vs shields, and is a part of the upgrade system. Doing changes to core BW units requires some rework and affects quite a lot of the game. That is why I prefer to look at SC2 units to see how they can be modified to fit into the Sbow balance. It will be the same with Hydras & Roach. I will probably not touch Hydras damage system. Maybe attack speed or some other factor. Instead there must be ways for the enemy to punish heavy Hydra play, and via that way try to open up the "need" for Roaches. But that is a later issue. But regardless, I don't see what advantages you see of this over the scaled down Immortal + Stalker suggestion (?) We keep the crucial BW balance by not removing the Dragoon. But by giving the enemy races ways to punish it, we open up room for Stalkers. And no changes have been made to any BW unit to make it possible. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
But by giving the enemy races ways to punish it, we open up room for Stalkers. But it depends on how "Punishment" works. If it is just build-order based, e.g. I choose build X, you choose build Y, and I punish you because you didn't scout it, then I doubt the game would be more fun. As a terran player you can't really react to the news that protoss has mostly Dragoons, by mixing in biological units in the middle of the game for a few reasons; 1) Extra infastructre costs 2) Scales badly vs Psy Storm that likely will be avaiable at that time anyway. 3) You are behind on upgrades 4) Easy for protoss to scout it regardless So instead you have to go bio blindly and rely on your opponent not scouting it, which makes it a bit more coinflippy. I can understand that the Stalker (with medium armor) + Dragoon solution adds abit extra to the ZvP matchup, but it doesn't add anything (besides an extra coinflip option) to the TvP matchup which makes it feel inferior to the Immortal + Stalker dynamic. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
With todays patch, I have looked into as many unit relationships as possible, to make sure it has no unintended consequenses for the BW balance. (I know. I talk a lot about that. But I just think it is really important that we do not move away too far from it. Just because it saves us a lot of time and work.) Ps. I am trying to get the triggers to work before I upload the update. Edit: But it depends on how "Punishment" works. If it is just build-order based, e.g. I choose build X, you choose build Y, and I punish you because you didn't scout it, then I doubt the game would be more fun. As a terran player you can't really react to the news that protoss has mostly Dragoons, by mixing in biological units in the middle of the game for a few reasons; 1) Extra infastructre costs 2) Scales badly vs Psy Strom that likely will be avaiable at that time anyway. 3) You are behind on upgrades 4) Easy for protoss to scout it regardless So instead you have to go bio blindly and rely on your opponent not scouting it, which makes it a bit more coinflippy. I can understand the Stalker (with medium armor) + Dragoon solutions adds extra to the ZvP matchup, but it doesn't add anything (besides an extra coinflip option) to the TvP matchup which makes it feel inferior to the Immortal + Stalker dynamic. You are indeed right that the way "punishing" works is important. Terran is very limited in that regard, since they have very divided infra-structure costs. In BW there was no real way to "punish" heavy Dragoon play, apart from loads of Tanks and maybe harassment at many locations, since Goons were so bad at reaching positions due to AI. So the same thing can be done here. Apart from that, T can mix in: - A lot more Banshees (They are better vs armored than vs medium. Dragoons are not that good vs them) - Heavy Vulture play & much harassment. (Dragoons deal less dmg vs them now due to attack speed. But Vultures will ofc not kill them easily.) - Use Reapers + D-8 Charges (Not something I would consider relaistic. But Dragoons are bad vs them in terms of DPS) So P should be "rewarded" by mixing in Stalkers. Should P be punished for not doing it? Or should he get a bonus IF he does so? | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Dragoons in BW killed Lurkers in 9 shots. Here they kill them in 8 shots 8x0.25 = 2 So with the speed reduction its equal 9hits So its a nerf to pvz alot. In pvt you could use storm once, and than use one hit from dragoon or zealot to kill it, now you cant Also, banshees with light marauders medium Pvt is underpowered drastically | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
(15 dmg per shot vs a 125 HP lurker with medium armor) 16 seconds to kill a Lurker in Sbow with attack speed 2 on Goon. (20 dmg per shot vs a 140 HP lurker with armored armor) (Armored armor is because otherwise Stalkers are good vs them, which has proved very bad for balance in the past) In pvt you could use storm once, and than use one hit from dragoon or zealot to kill it, now you cant It takes 2 shots now yes. Also, banshees with light marauders medium Pvt is underpowered drastically Marauders are armored. The flame attack will most likely be removed soon. Instead Firebat, Hellbat or something else can come. If T needs a way to deal with hordes of light units. (Which T probably does due to unlimited selection on Zerglings etc) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
15,75 seconds to kill a Lurker in BW with attack speed 1.75 on Goon. (15 dmg per shot vs a 125 HP lurker with medium armor) 16 seconds to kill a Lurker in Sbow with attack speed 2 on Goon. (20 dmg per shot vs a 140 HP lurker with armored armor) Yes. But a nerf to the rest of protoss units against lurkers. Marauders are armored Ok, so changes are incoming for him. Banshee light tho have me worried | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Yes. But a nerf to the rest of protoss units against lurkers. Zealots take 1 more hit to kill a Lurker now, compared to BW. What other Protoss units are nerfed vs Lurkers? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
www.twitch.tv/sc2_Starbow | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Thanks Dec for the instructions! | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Also. Goliath beat stalker 1v1. Risk that terr skips vults(?) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
15 extra hp and +2damage Yep, but attack speed is reduced so the damage per second is the same as in BW. But its good you point stuff out. But I have done my math with this ^^ Also. Goliath beat stalker 1v1. Risk that terr skips vults(?) Hm. | ||
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