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In broodwar, it was kind of risky to go 14cc.
Why is it not as risky here?
1) Maps are bigger
So is units slower in starbow compared to bw?
No idea. Probably not or maybe slightly, shouldnt have that huge impact all in all.
So why is 14cc so damn safe here?
One thing that comes to my mind is this:
Barack builds techlab and lifts off. This gives terran the tank and tankupgrade 36 seconds faster.
Imagine if he do this on two factories, he than have two siegetanks 36seconds faster than in broodwar.
Another thing that comes to my mind is his path to his scan.
1) Much cheaper
2) Unlocks much faster
3) He lose two scv by upgrading, which he did in broodwar. But thing here is, protoss lose two probes by upgrading his nexus. Which he did not in bw
This makes him relatively safe to dts. They were a pain in broodwar.
I dont know why stalkers are a threat to terran in early game?
One bunker, and terran is safe against dragoon with range, or stalkers with range(?)
Only 5BT faster to get stalker than dragoon. I dont understand this.
If protoss goes fast nexus, he is vulnerable to alot of stuff.
Terran should not be 100% safe, and we shouldnt have to change cost of robotic or stuff like this.
It should already be "balanced".
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@Spells
Arbiter:
Statis 100mana, 9range. Effect radius, 3x3.
Recall 150mana. Effect radius, 5x5
Sciencevessel:
Irridiate 9 range
Emp 8 range
Defiler:
Dark swarm 9 range
I know darkswarm got nerfed intentionally, but irridaite had only range six back than?
Anyway, arbiter needs his replicate from bw or else protoss is bad against terran
Both Emp and statis, have more delay when they cast their spells. This is very important.
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I did some more eco testing.
With the new triggers (which has yet to be implemented...) each worker beyond the inital 8 (assuming 8 patches of minerals) will yield less and less income. This is individual for each worker, but testing each is a very tedious task. I have instead divided them into chunks of 8 and sometimes 4.
I assume that the first 8 harvest maximum capacity = 100%
The second 8 will then as a mean harvest 73% compared to the first 8.
If you add 4 more they will harvest 33 % compared to the first 8.
If I instead add 8 more and look at them all as a whole the last 8 will harvest 24 % compared to the first 8.
So we get 1/0.73/0.33 for 20 workers and
1/0.73/0.24 for 24 workers.
BW is closer to 1/0.6/0.5 for 24 workers though.
BUT! This is what we initially tried to create before trying the BW triggers, so I am very pleased with the results. This will make staying on few bases be worse than taking many, but not all that bad.
In other words. It is better to have 5 bases with 8 workers each, but having 3 bases with 16 each is not that much worse. I think this will be good for gameplay.
To compare. What we have now is, according to LaLush findings (if I understand correctly) worse than BW, so it punishes few bases too much.
Edit: About stream. This is kinda weird, but at the left panel it says "Xiphias" when I stream instead of my twitch channel name. Now "Xiphias" doesn't say anything to anyone so I am actually considering applying for a rename of my nick to "Starbow". On the other hand, nickname Starbow sounds like I am the mod... Hmmmm. Any suggestions?
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woah, watched dirtybag vs lalush, awesome series. Starbow looks so much better. Gj guys!
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@eco
Its impossible to get 1/0.6/0.5 like in bw?
@Dragoon size and movementspeed
When i watch broodwar, siegetank looks bigger than dragoon. By a decent margin.
Also, zealot feels faster, same as vulture. Everything seems faster.
@Dec
Can you explain one more time how i should do the testing of movementspeed?
I didnt understand completely.
@Spellrange across the board
Can we get the correct range?
Even with smartcast i feel its very necessary.
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I'm not going to say it's impossible but it is very hard to make the second worker less effective and still have some work left for the third. I'm not sure how it could be done. Nor if we want it.
Remember that BW is more zoomed in than Sbow, but it still might be bigger than Sbow tanks.
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Why would we not want it?
With bw eco 100%
You want to build the third worker.
Now when the third worker gives 0.33, maybe in some cases its not as attractive.
I feel 0.33 is actually to small
"Bonus"
http://www.twitch.tv/archive/archive_popout?id=463564239&t=472729s
starts at 131:21~
Sea (Top terran in bw)
vs
Gosu protoss (Maybe bisu)
Game1
+ Show Spoiler +Notice how he skips scan for a long time, for better eco and more pressure. Overall, very well played by terran
Game2
+ Show Spoiler +Huge lag, none watchable. Skip this unless you wanna learn his build or something
game3
+ Show Spoiler +Dt rush. Notice here in starbow scan would have been unlocked already
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Thinking about the CC first issue a bit; I believe we should just put the barracks constraint on it. There really is no reason to play with fire here by changing the risk/reward of the build. Sc2 IMO has too many of the "build X beats build Y", and it doesn't create very good gameplay.
CC first isn't consistent with the eco boosters, and thus it shouldn't be an avaialable build IMO.
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Unit test map "Starbow Tester 2.0" Updated!
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On September 26 2013 22:58 Hider wrote:
Thinking about the CC first issue a bit; I believe we should just put the barracks constraint on it. There really is no reason to play with fire here by changing the risk/reward of the build. Sc2 IMO has too many of the "build X beats build Y", and it doesn't create very good gameplay.
CC first isn't consistent with the eco boosters, and thus it shouldn't be an avaialable build IMO.
So if you go full mech and get your scouting barracks killed - you can't expand?
This constraint makes no sense whatsoever once you think about it a second time. We should find some way to make CC first more vulnerable without introducing sillyness like this.
CC first should always be slower tech, so introducing some kind of essential tech requirement (like Marauders on Tech lab) or early game gas sink (gas for OC?) would help weaken the build.
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The problem is still there with the techlab on baracks>lift off, 36sec earlier tank
Nerf terran eco booster or buff protoss ecobooster. I would like a buff to protoss ecobooster more here.
And remove techlab from barack. Remove reactor also, or only starport can make reactor is also an option. Maybe silly?
So medic can be built without techlab, this is actually good
Firebat should be in, and if marauder stays have his cost increased and stats.
More cost = more decision to make him, valiable information if scouted
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So if you go full mech and get your scouting barracks killed - you can't expand?
Dont scout with barrack then. You can't build factories either - so really you shouldn't lose the barrack. If you do, rebuild it - no biggie.
This constraint makes no sense whatsoever once you think about it a second time. We should find some way to make CC first more vulnerable without introducing sillyness like this.
Your welcome to give me your suggestions with detailed follow up with how they impact each build order terran has. Specifically you should adress how you plan to nerf CC first without nerfing 1 rax expand (gasless) even further.
The problem is still there with the techlab on baracks>lift off, 36sec earlier tank
I think siege tech research time should be increased. But this change alone is at least as big a nerf to 1 rax (gasless expand) than CC first. So players will still easily prefer CC first over 1 rax expand.
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I agree that Terran is imba atm, but let's not overdo the nerfs. Increase bt for vults to 35 as hider suggested should be good as well as chrono being activated by the first gateway imo might just be enough for startes. If it's still bad we can try nerfing things like siege tech upgrade time.
Maybe 100 min OC again also?
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The state of Starbow, the future and todays patch
I finally have an evening to devote to Starbow. I will share my thoughts on the current state of the game, what areas still need work, and how we can make progress with the development. What are we trying to reach? When do we know we are "finished"?
Let me start with sharing my broader goals for the game. This is what I work towards:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
General areas of the gameplay where I want Starbow to be an improvement over BW:>>> + Show Spoiler +My main goal is to make Sbow fun. Both to play and watch. It can be achieved in a couple of ways:
- More room and potential for harassment, "action" and multitasking in all match-ups.
- More diverse playstyles for each race (so we get potential for a broader meta game).
- More room for micro to determine the outcome of a combat.
- Punish "deathball play", so we instead see more skirmishes.
- Make area control & positional play matter.
- "Spread out" economy.
- And so on..
Stuff like units, spells, stats, structures, abillities etc are the tools we use to shape the races, and thus we shape the game.
Nothing is suppose to be in the Sbow just for the sake of being there. Everything in the game must contribute to reach the desired type of gameplay, and aim to make the game more fun. (And yes, some stuff in the game are doubtful atm.) <<< Lets look at what I have in mind for each match-up (apart from the good stuff we already have from the BW balance) : PvZ>>> + Show Spoiler + - Make P more able to have map presence in the early & mid game with core units.
- Make so P "must" NOT tech on two bases into AoE (Reaver, HT, Corsair) to be able to fight/survive vs Z
How
- Rift on Nexus (Encourages early pressure)
- Sentinel with Null ward (Sentinel itself offers harassment/map presence, Null ward offers defence vs both Hydra busts & Mutalisks)
- Stalkers are good vs Mutas & Hydras (Offers early & mid game map presence and is an alternative to just "rush" for AoE) <<< PvT >>> + Show Spoiler + - Open up more potential for harassment, especially in the early & mid game
- Make so both races "need" more kinds of units to win the game, which leads to more diversity. For example, just massing Dragoons vs all kinds of Terran harassment/pressure should not work as well in Sbow as it did in BW. (Because it limits the variation, plus unlimited selection makes mass one-kind-of-unit boring IMO.)
- Open up more diverse tech trees
How:
- Reaper, Banshee, Speed Dropships offer better harassment for T, compared to BW.
- Sentinel, Faster Warp Prism, Stalker (blink?) offfer better harassment for P.
- Neither the Stalker or Dragoon should be superior vs Terran. Both units should have strengths and weaknesses T can explot. This patch should make it even more clear.
- Barrack & Stargate now play a larger role, compared to BW. (Broadens the tech tree)
<<< TvZ>>> + Show Spoiler +Starbow is quite close to BW in regards of the match-up dynamic. Which is good since TvZ in BW was very fun. <<< PvP >>> + Show Spoiler + - Open up for a meta game deeper than Dragoon + Reaver vs Dragoon + Reaver.
How:
- Stalker as a realistic and useful alternative to Dragoon. (Should be clearer with this patch.)
- Sentinel & Corsairs with Graviton beam as realistic tech choice early.
- Warp tech on Templar archives, to encourage that branch of the tech tree even more. <<<
ZvZ>>> + Show Spoiler + - Make Muta vs Muta NOT be the superior tech choice!
- More diversity!
How:
- Spore Crawlers much better vs mutas.
- Hydras much better vs mutas. <<< TvT:>>> + Show Spoiler + - Make more room for action/harassment/offensive, while still keeping the positional play.
- More diversity in the tech tree.
How:
- Nerve Jammer on enemy Tank lines
- Shock to unsiege enemy Tanks
- Marauder & Medic with Matrix as a boost to bio
- Banshee for harassment & sniping tanks
- Stronger BC
- Dropship speed ability <<<
Ok. But what is left to do with Starbow?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
I divide the game into two areas, overall race design & detailed balance work:
Overall race design
- What type of units, what spells, how shall stuff work? Basically, this is the tools we give players to use when they play the game.
Stuff that is left to fix regarding the overall race design:
- Remove splash from Marauders. Bring back Firebat, Hellbat, or invent some clever solution so it can exist on Marauders?
- Vikings
- Fix Viper & its spells
- A potential Roach
- Complete Devourer
- Fix Sentinel & its spells
- Warp gate?
- Dark Swarm?
- PF?
- Corsairs with Graviton beam insane when massed?
Detailed balance work
- How can we get the tools we use in the game to co-exist so the game becomes balanced?
For example, what stats on unit A, build time on upgrade B, and so on.
Stuff that is left (so far) to fix regarding the detail balance:
- Balance all macro mechanics (Chrono, Inject, Calldown SCV + Reactor) <<-- The most important thing IMO, since it affects so many other related problems described in the thread: Reactored Vultures too easy to mass, Siege tanks come out too early, CC first too easy and so on.
- Evaluate how races are affected by unlimited selection. What races & units benefit most from it? How can we compensate for it?
- Some general mechanics need to be fixed, for example flying units moving shot? Vultures need to be fine tuned? All units movement speed slightly faster? etc
- Lots of more stuff! (Reaver stats, range on all spells etc)
Comments from me regarding some detailed issues:
Macro mechanics
+ Show Spoiler +I am willing to adjust numbers here, but I need detailed math and a good overall solution. Xiphias does a great job digging into the numbers. But so far no superior solution has been presented? (Or maybe I have just missunderstood it.)
Some factors I would prefer:
- Queen, OC and Chrono boost all requires an upgrade. (Which they do.) This is mostply important for Chrono boost since earlier it made fast 2-gate pressure vs Zerg very very strong. And it is fun with more build order diversity, if each macro thing costs minerals.
- Chrono boost can not last too long, nor be too strong in %. This is because it affects Cannons too. If it lasts 20+ seconds and doubles the attack speed of Cannons, they will be too insane? Its kinda fun that the enemy can bait P to waste Chrono boost on Cannons, back away, attack again. Too long duration time makes it much easier for P to get the army in position, and thus it shuts down harassment very easy?
- Not remove any of them since I think all of them make base management & macro more interesting, especially since we have unlimited building selection.
CC first too good!
+ Show Spoiler +
Lets say a CC produces a worker every X second.
Two CCs produces 2 workers every X second.
Getting a high amount of workers is relevant when it comes to gaining income from a fast expansion.
OC, Chrono boost and Inject increases the production of workers. Thus they make it faster to convert minerals into workers.
If we assume all of the above macro mechanics become balanced, would this then not be a problem?
(Since all races have quite similar efficiency when it comes to producing workers.)
Why could CC first be punished in BW, but not here?
Races need better early harassment?
Workers longer build time, to avoid saturation happening too quickly?
Scan & detection.
+ Show Spoiler +Terran has easier acess to Scan now, compared to BW. But in return, Spider mines do not detect cloaked units.
Turrets, Cannons & Spore crawlers have longer detection range now than in BW, according to Dirtybag aka Foxxan.
Should that be lowered or not?
Dragoon & Stalker & Immortal
+ Show Spoiler +
The last weeks have we tried to break the Dragoon into two units - Stalker & Immortal. Each with their own disadvantage and strengths, and together they are suppose to be as mathematical efficient as Dragoons. This has caused balance problems and has not felt right.
Instead of drastically adjusting the Dragoon or other BW core units stats, it will be easier to modify SC2 units. They have more room to be adjusted without messing with the thin and important BW balance. So I will continue to use Dragoon & Stalker. (Both at Cybernetics core.) As long as we make sure the other races have methods to punish/take advantage of only Stalkers or only Dragoons, I think it will be enough to reach the desired gameplay goal I listed above. (To make races need more kinds of units, and not just one type of unit vs everything.)
Todays patch should help with this.
Why a potential Roach?
+ Show Spoiler +Because mass Hydras, mass Dragoons, mass of everything of one kind of unit is really boring in Sbow due to unlimited selection and the SC2 engine.
Select the ball, A-move.
If the enemy is too strong, select the ball, back away.
Compare it to BW - it required a lot of fun work & skill to manage large armies, both for defence and offense. (I thought it was fun at least ^^ )
The SC2 engine makes it easy to manage one type of unit. But much harder to manage several types of units, IF those units requires different ways to be microed.
If we manage to reach a dynamic where Hydras is NOT the best thing to macro vs almost everything, and instead Roaches are required too as a core unit, then I think we will see more fun gameplay. And diverse ourselfes from BW.
It will come in a test map soon.
"Yea ok Kabel, bla bla, show us what is in todays patch!"
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- New economy triggers created by Dec and Xiphias!
- Depleted geysers now give 2 gas per trip.
- Storm radius increased. (It was lower than the model size!)
- Better Stalker & Dragoon dynamic in TvP. PvZ and PvP. (Check Wiki for details. I will update it now)
- A few BW values I had forgotten
- Bug fixes! ! !
Note that I have almost not done any detailed changes. Its because I have not been online for almost a week. Only watched some re-stream and followed the thread. So I do not have enough input on what balance changes might be "best" to do atm. If you think anything really crucial, and not too drastic, should be added, then tell me before I upload it! It will be up in ca 1 hour.
Sorry if I have missed to cover something you´ve discussed recently. If so, please remind me.
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Instead of drastically adjusting the Dragoon or other BW core units stats, it will be easier to modify SC2 units. They have more room to be adjusted without messing with the thin and important BW balance. So I will continue to use Dragoon & Stalker. (Both at Cybernetics core.) As long as we make sure the other races have methods to punish/take advantage of only Stalkers or only Dragoons, I think it will be enough to reach the desired gameplay goal I listed above. (To make races need more kinds of units, and not just one type of unit vs everything.)
I think vs bio only you go Stalker. Vs mech you go Dragoons only, as Dragoons deal fine with Vultures.
Im not sure that really adds anything to the game? I mean you are still controlling only one ranged unit at the time.
EDIT: Maurauder changed to armored... Then Stalker isn't good vs bio only. I guess it kinda makes bio rape protoss in a straight up fight pretty badly untill reaver/HT is out.
EDIT 2.0: I don't really see how you can punish Dragoon only play as zerg or terran.
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EPT
