EPTI will respond to your posts, PMs and upload test maps etc when I get some more time. Probably on wednesday, since tomorrow is loaded with stuff from morning till night.
[A] Starbow - Page 416
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I will respond to your posts, PMs and upload test maps etc when I get some more time. Probably on wednesday, since tomorrow is loaded with stuff from morning till night. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Anyhow. I do not think it is neccecary to bring back much more of BW (except proper eco), rather start to tweak some of the BW stats to fit more into the Starbow style (with tech-labs, with reactors, with queens and reapers and so on). Also, we need to solve Immortal Vs Dragoon. (*cough immortal*) | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
Even if you've got the speed right by some independent metric -- you're still using way bigger dimensions in SC2 on your ported BW maps. Fighting Spirit in Brood War: 128x128 Fighting Spirit in Starbow: 168x168 Destination in Brood War: 96x128 Destination in Starbow: 120x176 Polaris Rhapsody in BW: 112x128 Polaris Rhapsody in Starbow: 144x160 Match Point BW: 112x128 Match Point Starbow: 147x158 The list goes on... I tested Fighting Spirit in SC2 side to side with Fighting Spirit in BW. In the time it took my mutas in BW to traverse the height of the map 4 times, the mutas in SC2 were just completing their 3rd trip across the height of the map. That's 25% faster movement for mutas across a smaller scaled Fighting Spirit in BW. This keeps annoying me and I don't want to take the cue of someone in starbow chat who said "you'll get used to it". Playing Starbow feels like playing on two game speeds below fastest because the scale of the ported maps are so different. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I would also like faster gamespeed in starbow. Whenever i bring it up i hear "what for", or "its good as it is". Something along those lines. Whenever i move my dragoons around i feel it takes a very long time to reach my destination, now i know why. If the maps are bigger like this, it will mess with balance What fastergamespeed do is it brings less uptime in realtime = less boring time. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Because BW plays a little differently on different comps I'd love it if anyone who can do this test do so. Load up BW or Starbow. You'll also need a stopwatch. A program like this works just fine: http://www.online-stopwatch.com/. Spawn in as Terran. Lift up your CC, and put your worker right under it (center as you can). Put your camera in each game on the the cross map natural. Time how long it takes for the worker in each respective game takes to actually travel there. This way we could scale all unit speed accordingly to what seems like the average BW travel time between all of our respective machines. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
With scvcalldown, you get two scvs every 13 irl seconds With chronoboost, you get two probes every 20 irl seconds Thats huge! Maybe that is a big factor for imba tvp. @Hallucination for protoss I suggested before to put hallucination on the nexus. But i dont like this, it is to much like the scan. Instead have the hightemplar hallucination resembme the one in sc2 hots. For 50mana Should feel like a strategy for protoss to find a good scout | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On September 24 2013 08:27 Foxxan wrote: @chronoboost vs scv calldown With scvcalldown, you get two scvs every 13 irl seconds With chronoboost, you get two probes every 20 irl seconds Thats huge! Maybe that is a big factor for imba tvp. You've got to be kidding me! A couple of pages ago I said the same thing (with more accurate numbers) and you were among the "but your testing is not the same as real game..." Did anyone read my stuff? This: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=383#7651 And This: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=322#6424 (And the mineral factor is non-existent since every probe also cost 50 minerals and chrono makes them produce faster). The post: My suggestion from waaaay ago: On September 03 2013 06:36 Xiphias wrote: OK. I have looked at HideR and Dirtybag's agruments about chorno (which are mostly: "it is too good and comes for free") but some of them are more relevant like: "protoss can hold early harass too easily and/or put on early game pressure too easily and OC is too expensive in comparison". This is, imo, a pure early-game problem. As my numbers show, SCV-calldown is one of the stronges eco-mechanics in the game atm, and I think it is underused because it pales in comparison with the M.U.L.E. I know my tests are not "real Starbow" and that terrans get an OC later than what I did (usually). But give the OC 3-4 call-dows and you are neck and neck with toss economy IF he chornos ONLY workers! The problem is not eco, imo and it seems to be your opinion as well, the problem is the early pressure that chorno can buff. So my suggestion remains: 1. Let chronoboost (and maye rift for that matter) be activated once the first gateway is finished and let the nexus start with 0 energy. It takes about 45-50 sec to regen 25 energy (ca. 0,58 / sec) so you can only chronoboost the last part of your second zealot. This should make the PvZ and PvT tmings easier to deal, but still make them quite strong (we should have some early-game aggression after all, and not just turteling..). 2. Let chornoboost have approx SC2 stats. This is to keep up with eco. Hopefully it won't break tech, as this is not a huge buff. Point is, chrono pales in comparison to call-down SCV as an eco ability no matter how you put it. 17 sec vs 14 sec is HUGE! 3. Sure, let OC be 75 minerals. We might see them earlier. Heck, we might see players who call down like clockwork have really good eco and nerf it back to 100 minerals  I think this is the most optimal solution atm. I will gladly do so tests in numbers IF there is a consensus to do this (or else I am just wasting my time...) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9387 Posts
On September 24 2013 08:27 Foxxan wrote: @chronoboost vs scv calldown With scvcalldown, you get two scvs every 13 irl seconds With chronoboost, you get two probes every 20 irl seconds Thats huge! Maybe that is a big factor for imba tvp. @Hallucination for protoss I suggested before to put hallucination on the nexus. But i dont like this, it is to much like the scan. Instead have the hightemplar hallucination resembme the one in sc2 hots. For 50mana Should feel like a strategy for protoss to find a good scout I actually don't think the exact cooldown of scv calldown is the real issue here. Even if it is 20 seconds as well, there are still likely to be balance problems. The issue is that it seems to be much more safe for terran to go CC first than for protoss to go Nexus first. Without macro mechanics that wouldn't have been such a huge deal as the CC first terran would probably just have 2-4 more workers than a 1 gate expand protoss. That would be an advantage, but likely not game-ending. However, when you suddenly can call down 4-6 scv's as well during the first 10 minutes, it really starts to get imbalanced. Protoss pressure options against CC first - Proxy gates --> This is likely the strongest respose, but also completely blind and will put you behind if he doesn't CC first. - 1 base reaver drop --> Probably also a strong response, but I think its weaker than in BW as Goliath's can be produced without armory and maurauders are a bit better than Marines vs it. - 1 base Stalker drop --> This comes faster than a reaver drop and Stalkers now 3-shots workers. If this comes before the 1st tank is out (or if it is out of position) and if terran doesn't build maurauders, this will do a lot of damage. But the problem here is that terran can easily produce like 2 mauruaders + 1 goliath preemptively. That should shut down 3-stalker drop quite easily while still being safe against most stuff. How terran can punish Nexus first; - Reaper expand will "guarantee" like 5 probe kills and thus put terran ahead of the protoss player. This opening is also relatively good against most stuff, so even if protoss doesn't Nexus first, it still doesn't put terran noticeable behind. So there is clearly an assymetry here, and I think rather than trying to adjust the strenght of scv calldown, it may be just better if try to make CC first much more risky. Some possible sugestions that we shold consider; 1) Maurauders should require tech lab --> Much much harder for terran to deal with Stalker drops before they have tanks + Goliaths out. 2) Robo facilitiy should cost 150/150 --> Makes it easier for protoss to tech to Reavers + Warp prism --> Thus he can better punish CC first. In PvZ it will also give him easier access to scouting which probably is fine as well. Effect on gameplay These changes are likely to nerf CC first much more than 1 rax expand. When you 1 rax expand you have more time to either produce stuff out of the barracks or get an addon it. Thus, it is easier for the 1 rax expand terran to get a tech lab on the barrack out and produce 2 maurauders, than it is for the CC first terran. EDIT: Thinking about the maurauder tech lab thing a second time --> Not sure how it all works relative to gas income. Maybe you won't actually be able to have maurauders much faster out if you 1 rax expand. Instead, this may simply lead to 1 rax gas openings being the standard opening in Sbow since Stalkers beat Marines so badly. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
No, iam not fucking kidding you ok? I know you said scv calldown were better than chronoboost, whats the reason you put all this info back here? But you never said excaclty how much better it was, you stated that you thought "3 or 4" seconds. I also said specific to you, that if scv calldown is better, we do adjustments according. "your suggestion from waaaay ago" Dude, this does NOT chance the fact that protoss starting with chronoboost is balanced. And i have said that there is no reason not to get them equal ecowise, and than upgrading for both is a decision. i stated this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ago. Waaaaaaaaaaaaay ago xiphias, ok? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Even if they are balanced, i still think its a huge deal. One base stalker drop will most likely put him all-in One base reaver drop, i dont think it work at all. All-in attack. Terran have so much stuff, with scv calldown I suggest we wait for the correct economy. Besides, 14cc in bw was risky. Here it is not appaearantly. Is it because of ecobooster double effect or is it that we get more minerals one worker on each mineralfield? Terran get their cc up faster, their barack up faster. I believe this has an impact. We also have bigger maps here appaerantly. We should not have to adjust things like cheaper robotic. It "should" already be balanced. rather than trying to adjust the strenght of scv calldown But we have to adjust it no matter what. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
LOL! | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On September 24 2013 21:42 Foxxan wrote: @xiphias No, iam not fucking kidding you ok? I know you said scv calldown were better than chronoboost, whats the reason you put all this info back here? But you never said excaclty how much better it was, you stated that you thought "3 or 4" seconds. I also said specific to you, that if scv calldown is better, we do adjustments according. How is this not specific: SCV: 14.63 sec per worker. Probe: 17.5 sec per worker? And, yes this is long ago, even before you started playing this mod I presume. Anyhow this, is not about us arguing this is about balancing macro mechanics. I do think trying chrono-boost be auto-added to nexus after first gate is finished could work as a compromise between the old "have it from the start" and the now "each nexus must upgrade it". I don't really care if it's not a choice. Each race get's macro mechanics and the choice is not that profound for zerg and terran anyhow. It is important, however, that the starting energy for the nexus once gateway is complete is 0, for this not to be broken. Then we have about 44 in-game sec before toss can start to use chrono. Edit (just saw post over now, think we wrote at the same time): I am agreeing with you on the fact that chrono is worse than SCV-call-down as a macro mechanic. I'm just saying that I've been saying this for a long time. Maybe we have different suggestions for solutions, but this is what Fisheye was referring to I think. Also, why are you calling it my "suggestions". They are not worth to be just suggestions? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
1) we want a decision 2) we want the eco boosters to be equal We do not want chronboost to give toss advantage and after a while terran eco gives terran an advantage We have said this before. Its like "oh boy has no one read what i said" but then u dont listen to what other people say | ||
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Hider
Denmark9387 Posts
One base stalker drop will most likely put him all-in One base reaver drop, i dont think it work at all. All-in attack. Terran have so much stuff, with scv calldown But if you could do a reactionary all-in against CC first, where you either would do game-ending damage or just equalize the game, then the risk/reward of CC first would be reduced quite significantly, and instead it would be more likely that 1 rax expands would be prefered. With 1 rax expands terran and protoss will have much more equal econ, which will balance the game better. I still think though there is a problem with reactors and Vultures having the same BT as in BW. That also need to adjusted. Is it because of ecobooster double effect or is it that we get more minerals one worker on each mineralfield? I think its the combo of Goliaths without armory requirement and easy access to maurauders that reduces the risk of going CC first relative to BW. And then ofc the reward is much much higher due to macro mechanics. Scv calldown doesn't change that much (I think) as terran isn't profiting that much from the extra scv's in the early game. The slightly higher income on 1 scv per mineral path probably also contributes to making CC first more safe. But we have to adjust it no matter what. Scv calldown should be better than chrono though. Otherwise it just changes the risk/reward too much for protoss in favour of taking a quick 3rd (protoss can take a 3rd faster than terran and thus benefit more from macro mechanics if they were equally strong). But ofc the difference doesn't have to be as large as 13 vs 20 - especially not once the economy kicks in. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Scv calldown should be better than chrono though. Otherwise it just changes the risk/reward too much for protoss in favour of taking a quick 3rd I never thought about that fast third. Terran cant get a fast third? So as it is now, if scv calldown is better. Gives terran advantage. If they are equal, toss gets ahead. I dislike this alot | ||
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Hider
Denmark9387 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:36 Foxxan wrote: I never thought about that fast third. Terran cant get a fast third? So as it is now, if scv calldown is better. Gives terran advantage. If they are equal, toss gets ahead. I dislike this alot I think cooldown for scv calldown could be increased as well - Something like 17 vs 20 is probably better. However in most games you will notice that terran can't actually afford to calldown each 30th second (or w/e the cooldown is). If you also want to get infastructure up at a resonable pace, you likely won't call down scvs at a more efficient rate than every 35th second. As protoss at least it feels easier to chrono out probes constantly - thus I actually don't believe increasing cooldown to 35 or 40 is gonna have that big of an impact as long as CC is still really safe. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I am not suggestion this as a solution btw, just saying that they can't be "equal". Anyhow, I agree with foxxan about waiting until we get the actual BW eco in this. I am very close to getting the tools I need to test the new triggers. One possible other solution is just to keep what we got now but buff the chornoboost (duration and/or %) according to our new findings with the new eco. Then we keep the choice and also make sure toss can't get a super-strong early-game like we had before. Maybe armory for goliath might be in order as well? | ||
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