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On September 21 2013 18:51 algue wrote:
I saw someone stream a few games on this mod, the good ol' deathball was still there. A blob of Hydra vs Dragoons is the same than a blob of roach vs stalkers
We can never force anyone to not go deathball. That will be impossible. The one of the points of this mod is to make the deathball less effective and reward multitasking more. In other words. If I try to turtle up a deathball I should lose vs a player who takes the map and controls many small groups of units at the same time.
Also, what HideR said.
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Inexperienced players have a high tendency to just clump their entire army.
With smaller groups of army this is okay, but not the most effective.
When armies get crazy big they become really ineffective and highly prone to big splash effects.
They also take up a lot more space and are actually approachable unlike sc2 clumps. 200/200 Toss army fits really neatly into a tiny bit of space.
200/200 Toss here? You have to try pretty hard to keep them all clumps, and then you are being extremely ineffective doing so.
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decemberscalm fix the vulture.
I am not only complaining that I cant find out how to micro this thing, but also you cant focusfire. you know how sad it is to lose entire vulture armys because you wanted to snipe templars, and its impossible because they either dont shoot or shoot other unimportant stuff...
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On September 22 2013 08:55 404AlphaSquad wrote:
decemberscalm fix the vulture.
I am not only complaining that I cant find out how to micro this thing, but also you cant focusfire. you know how sad it is to lose entire vulture armys because you wanted to snipe templars, and its impossible because they either dont shoot or shoot other unimportant stuff...
no! I dun wanna
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Around what time in British Standard Time do you fellows usually play? I find myself in an afk / empty lobby more often than not...
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We play on europe
@dragoon
maybe he aint fatter, idk
@economy
The economy now is higher on one worker per mineralfield than in broodwar but lower, the more workers you have.
This might ruin some balance stuff
@kabel
There are some values from the testmap in the realmap atm!
Dragoon/Stalker have two attackspeed
reaper BT longer
warpprism moves faster without upgrade
Lurker armored 140hp 22damage
These are what i know right now
New values
(Have written some of these before)
Pylon 300/300 hp/shield
Detection range of static defence = cannons, turrets, spore. They all have the same detection range as their attackrange = 7
hydra range 150/150 min/gas
Spidermines = able to hit stealth
Detector units = scienve vessel, observer, raven all have detection range of 11.
Stimpack for bio are suppoused to reduce attackspeed by 50%, it reduces less right now
Cast range of spells are off for some abilities. Maybe intended?
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@Eco
We know the eco is wrong. Me and Dec (mostly dec) is working on it. It's a bit complicatied to get to work properly. Mostly trigger stuff that won't cooperate.
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On September 22 2013 16:18 PineapplePizza wrote:
Around what time in British Standard Time do you fellows usually play? I find myself in an afk / empty lobby more often than not...
Somewhere around 6-10 pm for you.
People have played around that time pretty much every day recently.
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@Punish dragoons, pvt
How about buffing the goliath, and then combine the goliath with the viking.
It works just like the goliath work now on the ground, and he work more like the valkyrie from broodwar while in airmode.
Valkyrie = good vs light flying units, can only shoot air. Stands still for three~ seconds, and must shoot eight rockets.
Aoe. Vulnerable to scourge, and muta micro. Same cost as goliath for both, 100/50. With reduced stats for the planemode ofcourse.
We make him, costeffective against the dragoon.
Can be built from the factory and the starport.
Thing with starport = can make both "goliath", and "dropship". They work great together well = More dropplay.
Start in airmode
With this change, however i thought about some new unit for protoss instead of the stalker, that comes from the robotic.
You want this unit if you see goliathplay from opponent. And i got an idea, how can that unit be special against goliaths and not against vultures? We give him a trap/spell that works on groundunits only , except hover units. And except burrowed units also. Lurkers, and future roach(?). A trap that works alike the sentinels (not resemble).
Good to fight against bio of terran.
Good against zerg units also.
Instead of the reaver, this unit can work as a more combat unit, and reaver gets more of an early harass unit and more like positonal unit, iam not suggesting to replace him, just nerf reaver further or something.
Bio right now cant fight against reaver. Kinda boring fight.
And he is a deathball unit in pvz, and pvp.
And since siegetanks shoot far away, the tank will work well against him. Iam not saying this new unit should be bad against tanks.
I have this model in my head, well not 100% picture of him. But one thing i would like him also is he can move up cliffs.
To make him good against the mobile new goliath. And to be able to harass
He should move like the hightemplar, something like that but bigger ofcourse.
An autoattack, lets say range five-seven with an small aoe.
His autoattack is good for small units, and his spell is better against big units.
He sort of looks like:
Hybrid destroyer in map editor. This model would actually fit him quite well. Dunno about animations though(?)
These ideas are just a start. Would need more work ofcourse.
Kabel, you like this idea? Think about it.
EDIT:
i hope you havent read this yet kabel, but to summarize a bit:
Goliath would get more play in tvp.
Would force protoss to actually want that new unit "hybrid destroyer". Protoss cant just simple relie on pure dragoon the entire early game
The hybrid destroyer is good against goliaths, and siegetanks. So no big worrie about "coming behind in macro". Dragoon is still the strongest against vulture, but hybriddestroyer still not bad.
So to be more clear.
Protoss actually want three combat units right now:
dragoon, zealot, hybriddestroyer. ANd with buffed goliath, he needs to mix in more zealots or hybriddesroyer in the earlygame.
Terran want three combat units also:
vulture, tank, goliath.
He still use goliath right now, but more as an AA against prism or fighting air units.
With this change, he would want it also as an combat unit on ground.
WIth this "new"goliath, terran has more tactical play in their roster, and at the same time they wanna make dropship play more.
I want this "hybrid destroyer" to work more as micro unit, not as an deathball unit.
Some suggestions for him:
His attack can bounce like the mutalisk. This makes him better against goliaths than dragoons.
His first attack is still not weak against armored units. His bouncing if possible should not work against "hover", and "burrowed" units.
So you still want dragoon against vultures and lurkers, and the vultures should not be afraid of attacking him.
So this means also that he have this small aoe against terran bio, and zerg units.
Instead of the deathball reaver, you have this unit, and both sides can use micro.
I really like this on paper.
Hydralisks, and zealots are already costeffective against the goliath.
Well, goliath still win when they reach "critical" as all range against melee do.
The critical number is quite high tho, like 30-40 goliaths.
So to tweak goliath, it could be
20 explosive damage
20 vs armored
15 vs medium
10 vs light
A nerf to zealots and lings. Buff to hydralisk.
The thing now tho, is he do 20 vs zealots shields instead of his now 12.
We could however also, make his attack have
x2.
Since he have two cannons, right?
Units with base armor removes two instead of one.
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Me and Dec are REALLY close to getting eco done. We got the BW worker behavior triggers right (finally!), now we need to make sure mining / delay time is right so over-saturation is not too good and not too bad.
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@Eco
Current triggers use a flawed methodology.
They basically bounce a worker to a random mineral patch if the one they are in line for is currently occupied.
The new triggers will bounce a worker to a random mineral patch ONLY to unoccupied mineral patches.
I've got that part working. Mining time however might need to be tweaked.
@Vulture moving target fire
Not sure if this is possible. Actually clicking on a target triggers an actual attack command. Actual attack commands will force the vulture dead stop.
I've tried multiple methods of working around this fact. I tried tweaking how the current moving shot is set up by modifying the current weapon and triggers. I also tried making a new ability that would allow you to target fire a unit (abilities ALSO dead stop your unit if you target fire with them).
All have failed so far. The best advice I have now is to stop your vultures and then target fire. The first shot won't be aimable due to weapon switching but the second shot will target fire.
Blizz hates me guys, I'm sorry. That said, I thought a decent moving shot on attack move was impossible before so I will try new methods when I have new insight.
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@Eco
Will it fix the third worker also, to resemble more broodwar?
Reason i ask is, i thought lalush said it was impossible unless we increase movementspeed?
Actually, didnt he say it was impossible unless we increased it by a very unrealistically large movementspeed, and even then it wouldnt work?
The new triggers will bounce a worker to a random mineral patch ONLY to unoccupied mineral patches.
In bw, didnt the workers stay in que there when every mineral patch were occupied? I fear we have to get that here also to get it to resemble bw?
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Yes workers will only bounce IF there are unoccupied mineral patches.
With this trigger working properly movement speed should not be an issue.
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On September 23 2013 08:29 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +The new triggers will bounce a worker to a random mineral patch ONLY to unoccupied mineral patches. In bw, didnt the workers stay in que there when every mineral patch were occupied? I fear we have to get that here also to get it to resemble bw?
This is exactly what we been working on and we got it to work!
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On September 23 2013 08:09 decemberscalm wrote:
@Vulture moving target fire
Not sure if this is possible. Actually clicking on a target triggers an actual attack command. Actual attack commands will force the vulture dead stop.
I've tried multiple methods of working around this fact. I tried tweaking how the current moving shot is set up by modifying the current weapon and triggers. I also tried making a new ability that would allow you to target fire a unit (abilities ALSO dead stop your unit if you target fire with them).
All have failed so far. The best advice I have now is to stop your vultures and then target fire. The first shot won't be aimable due to weapon switching but the second shot will target fire.
Blizz hates me guys, I'm sorry. That said, I thought a decent moving shot on attack move was impossible before so I will try new methods when I have new insight.
Did you check if an ability will still stop the unit if it has the Transient flag/option? That should not change the unit's orders.
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Any news on when the Sbow unit test map (+ unit tester) will return?
@ Vulture
What about increasing BT from 30 to 35 seconds to take into account that reactors help make Vulture production alot easier? Relative to BW balance, the add-on thing feels like quite a terran buff.
@ OC + double-bonus effect of CC first
EDIT: Here is a replay demonstrating how imbalanced CC first is. When terran gets such an econ lead so early he can't actually lose (I believe).
http://drop.sc/360334
I feel like CC first is too good atm with how OC works. It acutally ligns up much better to go double OC after your second CC has finished when you go CC first, compared to 1rax expands. If protoss doesn't blind counter it (with proxy gateways), it is really very safe as well. And if protoss also tries to be safe against a reaper opening he can get really really far behind economically.
With scv calldown, you can then then quickly get an 8-10 worker lead over your opponentn which bacially gives the terran an insane advantage. Scv-calldown is a lot better when you go CC first than 1 rax expo as extra scv's matters a lot more when your worker count is relatively low compared to when worker count is higher.
I thought of various potential changes that could help reduce the efficiency of this opening;
- Increasing energy cost of scv calldown --> Not desireable as it makes supply calldown superior to calling down scv's + its also a nerf when teran goes 1 rax expo which isn't really imbalanced.
- Increasing duration of OC research--> This has the same problems as it actually nerfs non CC first openings even more.
Reduce duration of Nexus upgrade --> This means that there won't be a real decision on when to get it, as upgrading it asap will be too benefical.
- Changing it back to 100 mins --> Once again - this is just a bigger nerf for non CC first openings than for CC openings.
I think the best solution is to reduce OC's starting energy from 50 to 25. Overall, this means that if you also want to scan as terran, then you can't afford to throw down lots of scv's as well.
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On September 23 2013 19:00 ciox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 08:09 decemberscalm wrote:
@Vulture moving target fire
Not sure if this is possible. Actually clicking on a target triggers an actual attack command. Actual attack commands will force the vulture dead stop.
I've tried multiple methods of working around this fact. I tried tweaking how the current moving shot is set up by modifying the current weapon and triggers. I also tried making a new ability that would allow you to target fire a unit (abilities ALSO dead stop your unit if you target fire with them).
All have failed so far. The best advice I have now is to stop your vultures and then target fire. The first shot won't be aimable due to weapon switching but the second shot will target fire.
Blizz hates me guys, I'm sorry. That said, I thought a decent moving shot on attack move was impossible before so I will try new methods when I have new insight.
Did you check if an ability will still stop the unit if it has the Transient flag/option? That should not change the unit's orders.
That'll work. ^^ Still not ideal to having an actual moving shot.
But it will allow target fire.
So how manually targeting with vultures on the move could work, is they will require a hotkey->click on unit.
edit: I also made a thread asking for some small changes (okay maybe a few big ones).
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10039514244
Have never gone to blizzard before.
I forgot to talk about full damage to shield x.x.
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On September 24 2013 01:44 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 19:00 ciox wrote:On September 23 2013 08:09 decemberscalm wrote:
@Vulture moving target fire
Not sure if this is possible. Actually clicking on a target triggers an actual attack command. Actual attack commands will force the vulture dead stop.
I've tried multiple methods of working around this fact. I tried tweaking how the current moving shot is set up by modifying the current weapon and triggers. I also tried making a new ability that would allow you to target fire a unit (abilities ALSO dead stop your unit if you target fire with them).
All have failed so far. The best advice I have now is to stop your vultures and then target fire. The first shot won't be aimable due to weapon switching but the second shot will target fire.
Blizz hates me guys, I'm sorry. That said, I thought a decent moving shot on attack move was impossible before so I will try new methods when I have new insight.
Did you check if an ability will still stop the unit if it has the Transient flag/option? That should not change the unit's orders. That'll work. ^^ Still not ideal to having an actual moving shot. But it will allow target fire. So how manually targeting with vultures on the move could work, is they will require a hotkey->click on unit. edit: I also made a thread asking for some small changes (okay maybe a few big ones). http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10039514244Have never gone to blizzard before. I forgot to talk about full damage to shield x.x.
Ah, not necessarily since abilities can be Smartcast to work on right-click, you also have to set it up right and use a smartcast validator so for example the unit will fire only when rightclicked on enemies.
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EPT
