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[A] Starbow - Page 414
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/decemberscalm | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 21 2013 06:19 Hider wrote: Advertisement for Dec's stream; http://www.twitch.tv/decemberscalm Streams over now | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On September 20 2013 05:31 Kabel wrote: Unit test map unit tester can not be tested. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HsrXdPG.jpg) Any idea? Easy fix: http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/development/data/25903-param-value/ | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
think its difficult not to like the idea of Roach with a power-speed burrow ability. Its just a super awesome thing that could add a bit more non spellcaster-micro to zerg which they kinda lacks atm. But I think its interaction with speedlings and hydralisks doesn't work properly atm. in various situations. Instead, I want to suggest a change to both Hydralisks and Roache's which I believe could make PvZ a lot more exciting - This is obviously meant for the unit test map, not for the real map. While Stalkers + zealots are cost effective vs hydralisks, its just not really a good opening as it is easy for the zerg that drones intelligently to just outnumber you completely (based on quite some test games vs Dirty). And IMO that's a bit of a flaw with Hydra's vs protoss --> its all about numbers. If zerg has an unrefined build and gets too few hydralisks out --> he dies and vice versa. So overall, protoss still needs a relatively quick forge so they can throw down cannons, even if they 1 gate expand. This means that you just skip Stalker tech as protoss and goes straight to leglots + templar tech. The "design flaw" here is that hydralisks DPS to armored units may be slightly too high (to open up a role for the roach). When Stalkers/Immortals have no range advantage over hydralisks, it creates a dynamic where "numbers" matter a bit too much for my taste. If, on the other hand Hydralisks and Roache's had these stats, I believe it could be quite different; Suggested stats + Show Spoiler + Roach; - Cost: 75/50 -2 supply - 150 HP. - Tier 1 - Range 3-4 - 20 damage vs armored - 15 damage - 13 damage vs light - Tier 2 upgrade for the burrow-ability. - Armored unit Hydralisk - Tier 1 - A bit lower damage vs armored - Damage vs normal and light = unchanged (for now). - Medium unit - Hallucination on Nexus Effect on gameplay + Show Spoiler + - It will be harder for Hydralisks to get the critical count vs zealots + stalkers. So while let's say the critical ratio where Hydralisks starts to steamroll stalkers + zealots is 1.3:1 --> increased to 1.5:1. - Combined with hallucination on Nexus, it now becomes much easier for the protoss player to survive with zealots + stalkers (without heavy cannons) vs pure hydralisks in the early game. The benefit hallucination gives here is that it makes it possible for the protoss to get out lots of units rahter than teching. If you as a protoss player is unsure whether zerg goes for A) Lurker rush, B) Mutalisk opening, C) Hydra rush, then you will need to invest into a lot of different tech to be "safe" against everything which means you can't have the unit numbers. But if instead you can kinda "cut" the tech for a while and get out units when you scout an early hydra rush, the outcome would look quite different. - A mix of Roache's and Hydralisks will roughly replicate the damage dealt armored units - A mix of roach's and hydralisks will deal lower damage to light units than previously which is a tradeoff off roache's tanking better vs Marines and Zealots than Hydralisks does. - Vs Stalkers, roache's will be quite cost effective in an a-move. Stalkers, however can kite in the early game, which means that you can actually survive as protoss (without AOE) vs a roach/hydra push even if you are a bit outnumbered - as long as your on top of your micro. While I previously argued that Stalker kiting vs Marines was a bit lame, please note that this is quite different for 4 reasons; 1) Stalkers deal crap damage to roache's,. They 3-shot marines atm. 2) There is no double-bonus of kiting here as there are no medivacs. 3) This is a temporary thing for the early game. In the midgame roache's can use its burrow ability to catch up. 4) As long as protoss has the correct unit composition, zerg doesn't rape protoss in a straight up battle like bio does. Instead, you will just use kiting as protoss in scenarios where your outnumbered and would otherwise have died in the current state of the game. - Roache's loses to Immortals, however if you can mix in some speedlings as well, non-micro'ed Imortals doesn't perform that well anymore. - Vs mech, Roaches's will do better vs Goliath's + tanks than Hydralisks does atm. But it will have a more difficult time dealing with Vulture harass Final remarks + Show Spoiler + The primariy intention here is to make it possible for protoss and zerg to fight straight up against each other in the early game. I don't like the type of gameplay where protoss has to turtle-tech on two bases or the type of gameplay where unit numbers matters way too much. By giving the roach a clear role in both matchups it will also see more utility as a harass-unit. If all it can do is the burrow-ability (and if it just sucks in normal battles), then its likely to become too gimmicky. This will also change TvZ mech quite a bit in the early and midgame (mostly), but as I kinda dislike that matchup atm., I think that the roach actually could have a very positive impact on it. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow/c/2967309 There were many good games yesterday! Check out the whole broadcast(s) here: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow/b/463679468 http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow/b/463692097 (Two parts since my stream crashed at some point). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Maybe not a problem initself if terran goes bio. But the roach will melt mech easy. He will kill dragoons easy also. Should dragoons get another "core" role in pvz? Right now he works good against lurkers, with heavy support he works decent against hydras. If dragoons worked well against roach for himself, would this not cause good gameplay? I prefer to look at it as this: Instead of protoss must get storm out against criticalmass of zerg, we give him another tool. Like the sentinel, a more offensive tool. So with new tool for toss, zerg may need something here. Like a better tank (roach). Though, i dont like the roach to be a core tank but if his role is tank/harass/dps. All of these. In combat, he can use burrow to snipe "key units" on the ground. Or decide to go more economy harass. I wanna see roach as like range 2. He should be good versus zealots, but with micro. Archon should be good against roach. One supply, less cost. It gets so messy with both stalker/dragoon for me. Anyway! @dragoon I feel his size is so big in starbow compared to bw. I mean, i feel he is VERY big(?) Like 100% bigger?? 50%?? I felt this since i first saw him, that he was rather big. Anyone confirm? Well i saw a picture of goon beside unsieged tank in broodwar. The goon were more foursided right? While the tank were a quadrat. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
It will cause problems this way. Imagine roach good vs armored units, with burrow movement speed he will kill tanks very easy. Maybe not a problem initself if terran goes bio. But the roach will melt mech easy. But the roach in Sc2 doesn't melt mech very easy, which is acutally a bit "weird" as; - Sc2 tanks deal less damage to armored units than in Sbow/BW. - Zerg have a ton more larva in Sc2. - Roaches are cheaper in Sc2. - Burrowed Roaches are still relatively fast in Sc2. Instead, I actually expect (once game kinda will be figured out) that you will mainly use the b urrow thing to make your roaches move faster or simply to survive in some situations. I think it will be quite unliekly that it will be used that often to burrow on top of tanks. In a straight up fight, the Roach here simply opens up a stronger role for the Vulture, which I much more prefer to see more of than the Goliath. He will kill dragoons easy also. Should dragoons get another "core" role in pvz? Right now he works good against lurkers, with heavy support he works decent against hydras. Im suggesting this to the test map with Immortal, Stalker, Maurauder. I think with just BW Dragoon, Maurauder and roache's become obosolete. I think Roach'es vs Immortals will be somewhat comparable to Maurauder vs Immortal, which Immortal wins Summing up This Roach role will have two big effects on unit compositions that I believe are very desireable; - Stalker better early game vs zerg - Vulture's will see more usage in midgame vs zerg when terrans goes mech (rather than just goliaths) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Here in starbow, they move faster than normal while burrowed. They also have 50% reduced damage to while under the ground. Hard to look at both mech and bio for terran, and at the same time look for protoss side. So vult should be decent against roaches, combat wise? Roach = medium or light? Everything is medium or light for zerg already except ultralisk. With slow attackspeed, spidermines will do good against them. With low range, same. Ye i know you suggested it for testmap. Its still doublethinking for me, stalker and dragoon. We havent even found the role for stalker yet. Ofcourse its hard for me. In sc2, he was two supply = He was good for his cost, but bad for his supply. He was pure numbers in sc2. Zerg is now all about numbers. SO with lower range, he cant reach the criticalstate hydras can reach. Maybe zerg wanna get 10 or 20 roaches, just for his purpose of sniping key units, or to do a good engagements against a type of unit. I mean even in lategame. Right now, zerg can just keep on adding hydras more or less | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
They also have 50% reduced damage to while under the ground. I think the 50% damage reduction should be removed with my suggestion. The current implementation is balanced on being a burrow-unit, instead of a viable T1 unit. My suggestion involves Roaches being cheaper and almost as much HP as Kabels suggestion when not burrowed. So vult should be decent against roaches, combat wise? Roach = medium or light? It should be a good buffer unit vs Roaches. (Obviously cost inefficient in a straight up fight). Currently Goliaths feels like a better buffer unit vs Hydralisks than Vultures, and Goliaths have AA. Further, defending Vulture harass with Roaches is also a bit harder than with Hydralisks due to lower range and lower attack speed. In sc2, he was two supply = He was good for his cost, but bad for his supply. I think the BW larva rates will have a quite different impact on how Roaches will impact gameplay here compared to Sc2. I expect that gateway units and zerg units will meet in an "agremeent" in the middle of the map and battle it out in a "fair way" quite often here. If zerg has more stuff than the protoss he will win the battle (at the expense of lower drone count), but toss can still survive as he can kite the roaches back to his own base (which will damage them a bit) and then chrono out Immortals or maybe set up emergency cannons, so he can survive. If toss wins --> zerg can still retreat home with majority of units since Hydralisks are fast enough to avoid taking a lot of damage while retreating + Roache's takes some time to kill. And ofc zerg can reinforce quite quickly. So overall, I believe this will be more back and fourth and less about: I have X more units than you --> I win. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
When toss gets a lot of zealots, it is hard for zerg to battle him unless these conditions are met; - He can turtle behind wall offs/narrow passages - He has unit advantage - His hydras have upgrade advantage (however when he has upgrade advantage, hydras rape slowzealots). Now, that kinda creates a dynamic I am not particularly found off, where protoss dominates the map early game with slowzealots --> zerg either drones up with defensive wall offs or goes for a quick hydra all in. If instead, you mix in Stalkers/Immortals, then you as protoss can hit the defensive structures better (for instance attacking a macro hatch/evo chamber that blocks off a passage) --> this forces zerg to produce units and actually battle you. So overall, I believe that it would be very desireable for the gameplay if Stalkers/Immortals get a stronger role in the early game vs zerg (which the Roach can get them). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Pure lings or Pure hydras Own everything protoss have, if they do not have aoe. And i really mean own them hard. If hydras were to get worse versus armored, which the new immortal is? Stalker is medium? It wont change. Or stalker is armored also? I still dont think stalker will cut it, even if he is armored or whatnot. Lings are still costeffecient against him. If the early game will favor protoss to much, zerg will be broken. Hard to fix. Guess we have to wait for unit tester to arrive edit: Whole pvz is balanced around Toss needs aoe against criticalmass or just masszerg in general. So if we give more power to protoss without relying on aoe, we need to give zerg something against aoe. Like roach with burrow. Instead of 50% reduced damage while under the ground, he can get aoe attack reduces toward him. So we make him a unit that want to use his burrow. Since hydras already have range five, i feel we should give him max 2.5range, to get synergy more. If he sees a storm incoming against him, he can use burrow. He want to use it to snipe the aoe of protoss, or setup good flanks or whatnot. To also tank some for his hydras. I guess roach will be better "tank" than lings atleast. It could be fun it it works Why do you wanna give him so long range? 4-5? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
It sounds good on paper, but the tricky part of zerg is his units are so cost effecient when he gets good macro up. Agree, but the reward for zerg will be changed now. Right now it feels like there is a gigantic reward for getting out a lot of Hydralisks at once since you become insanely more cost efficiency when you get the correct numbers. I think nerfing Hydralisks vs armored (+hallu) will make it very impractical to rely on outnumbering protoss opponent with pure Hydralisks, as long as protoss plays solid. It can ofc. be used as a surprise tactic, but overall it will be nerfed quite a bit. Instead, I think it will be better to mix in Roache's and Hydralisks in medium numbers (while still droning up a bit). The intention behind Roaches and Hydralisks is that it should accomplish these two things - Make it possible for zerg to trade decently against protoss with equal numbers throughout all phases of the early and midgame. - Makes it possible for both races to survive when they are outnumbered. The roach can accomplish this much better than the Hydralisks as it have lower range. The hydralisks is much more of a "killer-unit" due to its higher range. So if we give more power to protoss without relying on aoe, we need to give zerg something against aoe. Storm is already nerfed relative to BW (which I actually think its good cus then we can buff protoss a bit in early game. Rather nerf Reaver a bit more as well. But also remember that with this new "balance",zerg can actually drone up while getting out a medium amount of units vs protoss. So balance in the later parts of the game won't be heavily impacted. Why do you wanna give him so long range? 4-5? Its 3-4. I am not entirely sure yet. It depends on whether it should have a movement speed upgrade. If it it has a movement speed upgrade then 3 is fine. If instead it is kinda slow (when not burrowed), then 4 is probably better. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Make it possible for zerg to trade decently against protoss with equal numbers Well they already can do that. You know lings>zealots for example. Lings win equal cost. Though zealots here, they wanna reach critical against lings. Opposite now, cuz they wanna hold one side(do not wanna get surroundered). Storm is already nerfed relative to BW (which I actually think its good cus then we can buff protoss a bit in midgame). Rather nerf Reaver a bit more as well. Ye, its a bit worse here, less radius or something. But my point was if protoss do not have to relie on aoe to fight zerg. Then if they add it later on, they get so much powerbehind it. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Well they already can do that. You know lings>zealots for example. Lings win equal cost. Yeh ok, but I was also taking into account larva efficiency when I am talking about cost. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On September 21 2013 18:51 algue wrote: I saw someone stream a few games on this mod, the good ol' deathball was still there. A blob of Hydra vs Dragoons is the same than a blob of roach vs stalkers This is a misunderstanding. A group of units fighting another gruop of untis isn't a problem. Actually quite the opposite. The problem instead occurs when one race has to turtle way too long to get out a critical amount of units before action can start to occur, and then its all just over in one battle. When you combine turtling with a low degree of multitasking (90%+ of protoss games in sc2), then games become super lame. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Yeh ok, but I was also taking into account larva efficiency when I am talking about cost. What? Why? If his lings win cost effecient against your zealots, you are in big trouble. If he has decent amount of drones, no reason not to go lings to kill your zealots. So zerg should never spend units on larva? I dont get your argument Roach; - Cost: 75/50 -2 supply - 150 HP. - Tier 1 I see a problem here. One larva=two lings One larva=150hp roach A already great tank for the hydralisks. Imagine if he have one base armor as he did a few days ago. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
I see a problem here. One larva=two lings One larva=150hp roach Well some of the intenton here is to make this relatively larva efficient so you can get out a medium amount of units while still having a decent drone count. Exact stats are obviously adjustable. Imagine if he have one base armor as he did a few days ago. I don't want to give it one base armor as it shoud be a decent tank vs tanks. So instead I want it to have a bit more HP per cost than it otherwise would have if it had 1 armor. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
While Stalkers + zealots are cost effective vs hydralisks But they aint costeffective against hydras | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On September 21 2013 19:41 Foxxan wrote: But they aint costeffective against hydras In similar numbers - Yes they are. But once Hydras reach a critical mass, they become cost effective (I don't really like that type of design). This change makes it harder for Hydras to reach the critical mass since they get nerfed vs armored. | ||
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