EPTHe never have to turn his Firecannon
[A] Starbow - Page 400
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
He never have to turn his Firecannon | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
On September 10 2013 05:58 Foxxan wrote: The dragoon moves better imo, he even has no back. He never have to turn his Firecannon I refer to my test with hydra vs Stalker/Immortal + zealot test. Assuming the movement of the Immortal replicates the Dragoon, the Stalkers fares better. The main thing is that Stalkers don't really stop while they shoot. This means that you can move and shoot much better while your trying to catch up to vultures, banshee's, hydras etc. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
Question, in starbow, are Structures considered Armored, like in normal sc2? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
The main thing is that Stalkers don't really stop while they shoot They still need to stop while they shoot. Maybe they are faster than a dragoon here with their shooting. Though, the dragoon right after he shot he can move immediately Assuming the movement of the Immortal replicates the Dragoon, the Stalkers fares better. And why do u assume this? I have now said this around three times, they do not replicate the dragoon in this, the immortal moves slower. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 10 2013 05:21 Hider wrote: Wow it looks awesome to micro vs mutalisks. But will that damage only be for air vs air units? Seems a bit unlikely that it can be balanced vs ground units? Damage was untouched | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Hider, what about vs Light? personally I'd like it if Stalkers had 20 damage vs Light so we could see some good blink stalker harass on mineral lines. (19 would work too, it'd just mean you'd need +1 to 2-shot workers) So, if we use your suggested value, maybe Stalkers can have 20 vs Light and Medium, 12 vs Armored? Question, in starbow, are Structures considered Armored, like in normal sc2? Sounds like a risky value. All structures in Starbow are considered armored. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:06 Fishgle wrote: Hider, what about vs Light? personally I'd like it if Stalkers had 20 damage vs Light so we could see some good blink stalker harass on mineral lines. (19 would work too, it'd just mean you'd need +1 to 2-shot workers) So, if we use your suggested value, maybe Stalkers can have 20 vs Light and Medium, 12 vs Armored? Question, in starbow, are Structures considered Armored, like in normal sc2? Haha I think Dirty won't like my warp prism stalker harass then. Oh my god that would be broken. I didn't make calculation for light as you won't even mix Immortals/Stalkers vs light units. For instance early game zvp you shouldn't build Immortals at all which makes these type of calculations completely useless. Vs light, it is instead more important that we make sure that neither the stalker nor the Immortal doesn't become too specialized as it breakes the balance completely. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
And why do u assume this? I have now said this around three times, they do not replicate the dragoon in this, the immortal moves slower. Maybe Dec can clear this up. I used him as a source for that claim (at least I was told that the 2.95 movement speed that the Dragoon has in Sc2bw is the wrong value), and since he used 2.75 as the movement speed for the Immortal I assumed that was roughly the same value for the Dragoon as well. But maybe it is something inbetween? | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Ma dal momento che tutte le unità ora usano il sistema dmg BW, con il 100% dmg vs tipo di unità A, 75% vs tipo B, 50% vs tipo di unità C, abbiamo bisogno di rimanere coerente? Quindi dobbiamo trovare valori dmg che si inserisce in questo? O è necessario rompere il sistema e fare delle eccezioni? (I numeri proposti non si adattano a questa regola.): - / Io non capisco perché dobbiamo restare con questa regola? Non credo che possiamo avere uno stalker e un immortale se lo fanno praticamente lo stesso danno. Edit: Here is the "system" To get the balance bw must not forget the old types of damage: Normal: 100% vs all Explosive: 100% vs large, 75% vs medium, 50% vs small. Concussive: 100% vs small, 50% vs medium, 25% vs large. We can ofc play around with the percentage values for a new type of attack so it fits. Nice the idea of a new type of attack (es: Plasma type: 100% vs small, 75% vs medium, 50% vs large). However the best way to make a strong unit against light units but at the same time good against medium units is to use a combination of splash (small radius) and concussive type attack. I like the bw attack type system , it makes everything intuitive and easy to understand. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:11 Hider wrote: Haha I think Dirty won't like my warp prism stalker harass then. Oh my god that would be broken. I didn't make calculation for light as you won't even mix Immortals/Stalkers vs light units. For instance early game zvp you shouldn't build Immortals at all which makes these type of calculations completely usefull. Vs light, it is instead more important that we make sure that neither the stalker nor the Immortal doesn't become too specialized as it breakes the balance completely. aight. makes sense  | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 10 2013 05:17 Fishgle wrote: how'd you do this? Ballistic driver on the missile mover + small Impact Range on the missile effect? + Show Spoiler + Projectile is slowed down Guidance for the intial launch->into balistic The actual missile itself's radius has been increased (this is what determines hit detection if I'm not mistaken). Moving Turning rate 500 Stationary turning rate 10 Lateral Acceleration 2 | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:13 Hider wrote: Maybe Dec can clear this up. I used him as a source for that claim (at least I was told that the 2.95 movement speed that the Dragoon has in Sc2bw is the wrong value), and since he used 2.75 as the movement speed for the Immortal I assumed that was roughly the same value for the Dragoon as well. But maybe it is something inbetween? The dragoon in SC2BW is scaled differently. Our unit speeds are scaled for our general map size (usually around 168 x 168). Plus his time scale he is using might be different. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:14 JohnnyZerg wrote: Nice the idea of a new type of attack (es: Plasma type: 100% vs small, 75% vs medium, 50% vs large). However the best way to make a strong unit against light units but at the same time good against medium units is to use a combination of splash (small radius) and concussive type attack. I like the bw attack type system , it makes everything intuitive and easy to understand. Danko has brought a good point about how it should be either BW attack type system, or just SC2 system. Not a mix like we have. This means, either bonus system and some values as just flat (more confusing because there is no logic to it, you need to memorize each units stats vs each size) or full out BW damage types (either a flat number vs everything or things like explosive/concussive. You have general rules for how a weapon will perform vs another unit instead of being arbitrarily different). | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:10 Kabel wrote: Sounds like a risky value since it allows Stalkers to two-shot Lings. All structures in Starbow are considered armored. 8x2 vs light is best number because with a +1 attack, stalker two shot lings. Maybe in this case, may be necessary to add a new type of attack: Plasma: 100% vs light (small) 75% vs all (medium) 50% vs armored (large) | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:19 decemberscalm wrote: + Show Spoiler + Projectile is slowed down Guidance for the intial launch->into balistic The actual missile itself's radius has been increased (this is what determines hit detection if I'm not mistaken). Moving Turning rate 500 Stationary turning rate 10 Lateral Acceleration 2 alright. that's about what i thought, except for the radius thing. There's a value on the Missile Launch effect named "Target: Impact Range" which is what I used instead of increasing the missile size. Did you lower the projectile death Timer? on the map i'm making, I get weird bugs when projectiles hit the edge of the map, so I just made the projectile disappear after 2 seconds to prevent it. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
We try to get the Dragoon dmg to fit with the Stalker and Immortal. This means that Immortal + Stalkers mixed together should be roughly as efficient as the same cost of Dragoons. This makes it possible to keep the BW balance. The values we now have in the game for Immortal & Stalker leads to this: Basically, atm protoss have the following differneces compared to BW protoss; - Much less damage vs armored units - A bit higher damage vs medium units - Much worse anti-air - Much less HP So your suggested value for the Stalker must match with the Immortal, so both units together gets a similar damage output as the Goon, but divided on two units. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:31 Kabel wrote: @Johnny + Show Spoiler + We try to get the Dragoon dmg to fit with the Stalker and Immortal. This means that Immortal + Stalkers mixed together should be roughly as efficient as the same cost of Dragoons. This makes it possible to keep the BW balance. The values we now have in the game for Immortal & Stalker leads to this: Basically, atm protoss have the following differneces compared to BW protoss; - Much less damage vs armored units - A bit higher damage vs medium units - Much worse anti-air - Much less HP So your suggested value for the Stalker must match with the Immortal, so both units together gets a similar damage output, but divided on two units. mmm... sorry... I forgot what I said to the stalker, it makes sense if it is added dragoon or immortal (good vs armored) in the gateway | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:30 Fishgle wrote: alright. that's about what i thought, except for the radius thing. There's a value on the Missile Launch effect named "Target: Impact Range" which is what I used instead of increasing the missile size. Did you lower the projectile death Timer? on the map i'm making, I get weird bugs when projectiles hit the edge of the map, so I just made the projectile disappear after 2 seconds to prevent it. The reason I increased the missile size instead is because there are three launch effects so might as well just change the size of the missile. Yeah I've played with missiles a great deal in one of my projects before (using persistents for hit detection so that you could accidentally hit another target). If you don't take out missiles manually they can do weird things like veer off into the ground at a weird angle and kinda chill there. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 10 2013 06:26 JohnnyZerg wrote: 8x2 vs light is best number because with a +1 attack, stalker two shot lings. Maybe in this case, may be necessary to add a new type of attack: Plasma: 100% vs light (small) 75% vs all (medium) 50% vs armored (large) :D that was the name I thought of for the same thing on stream. But there is no reason we couldn't do something like this. As long as this respective damage type always follows the same formula. Definently my favorite method for damage types. | ||
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