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My point is that we have remade a lot of the BW balance. And it has been very successful. Protoss is the race where there is a balance concern, just because the core unit - the Dragoon - is replaced by two other units. Neither T or Z have lost any core unit. Their basic balance is intact. Stuff has just got added to the races to build upon the balance.
Yes, maybe we will find something good if we continue to tweak the Immortal/Stalker, adds in new spells to the Sentinel or whatever. But how long? How will we ever know?
That is why I am so keen to use BW balance - we know it works, it is fun, we can improve upon it, and we do not have to invent new solutions.
Instead we can use the basic BW balance, and then add in new stuff. We do this in every area of the game, and it works great. Except Protoss since we still stick with the Immortal and Stalker. I don´t think we will reach a good enough solution anytime soon, since each new created solution requires playtesting and evaluation. Thereby I consider this approach:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=398#7950
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I think there is also a reason we have put off adding the Dragoon for so long even with the current BW balance philosophy. BW is a great base to work from and has improved the game immensely, but we still have differences in the other races. Terran has the Reaper and Firebat/Marauder hybrid, as well as new Medic spells. Zerg has Queens and Banelings. Taking away the Immortal will leave Protoss early game pretty much exactly as BWs, with little evolution taking place. The Stalker and Dragoon will be too similar in too many respects. I believe that in this case, a change is worth fighting for, even if it takes awhile to balance.
To start, I think looking at splitting the Stalkers attack between ground/air is a better solution than trying to carefully pin balance on a new Sentinel spell.
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@smilezerg
Doing things like immortal better versus lurkers than dragoons are, can actually ruin the gameplay more than give.
What if zerg gets powerless, more or less. It will lead to stalegameplay overall.
Giving the sentinel a spell to help aid versus mutas, has been talked for along time, actually even with the dragoon, it would still be in place.
To actually change a coreunit like this, its to much of a problem. It will ruin gameplay more than give for a long time, thats my opinion.
Eventually would it be right or decent? Maybe. But it would take a very long time, maybe even never reach a decent state.
I know pvz very good. The problem is not that the dragoon is bad against muta it is that protoss have a hard time to scout zerg.
Therefore the fast corsair is made in broodwar because of
1) To scout
2) Deal with potential muta
3) kill overlords
The scouting is the most crucial in the corsair play.
So protoss deal with three things in one with the corsair.
Before the bisubuild.
Protoss went something like this:
1) 2gate zealot pressure
2) templar tech with speed zealot
3)expansion
He could mix the order of these. So now, what this tech did to him was:
1) help with potential hydra mass > storm
2) Archon for potential muta
3) gain some map presence, to seek information
Note, protoss had a really hard time here, because they were in the dark. Was muta incoming? Should protoss put cannons up on their nexues and morph to archons? What if a hydrabust is incoming? What if lurkers?
They struggled, alot, and this was with the dragoon in place.
For me to put the sentinel on the robo, i have pvz in thought when i think of that.
Protoss can skip stargate if he wants, put down a robotic. Build a sentinel to
1) scout
2) Help with mutas
3) help with hydras
Something along this line.
Imagine if we set with dragoon. Why would everything turn exactly like bw?
We still have the sentinel here for protoss, maybe some tweaks to other lesser units.
And new units for terran and zerg. And the underused units we can look at, like the ghost
Things will change. Probably, hopefully.
Also every race has their new eco boost, thats a core change already
Making a change, it should feel great. Not mediocre or sloppy.
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To start, I think looking at splitting the Stalkers attack between ground/air is a better solution than trying to carefully pin balance on a new Sentinel spell.
The attack damage to medium air is already pretty high for the Stalker. If they have like 25 damage vs air units (which is roughly the neccesary amount to replicate a dragoon if you have a 50-50 mix of stalkers and immortals), then it will absolutely break the game as it makes all types of air units completely useless.
There is no solution here that makes protoss ground units good enough vs air without giving Immortal anti-air.
But here is another problem: 50-50 mix of stalkers and Immortals have less HP as well than a Dragoon. This leads to a big balance assymetry where stalker is very weak in matchups where zealots quickly die, as it does vs mech (vultures hard counter them), because stalkers are designed in such a way that they need zealots to take the damage for them.
Instead, stalkers are very usefull vs hydralisks untill lurkers are out, as hydralisks deal very little damage to zealots. Thus, we can't just buff stalkers HP here without making comparable balance adjustments.
So really the simple solution here is the Dragoon and no Stalker at gateway (as it breaks the math equation).
The tougher solution is this;
- Give Immortal anti-air
- Make Immortal weaker vs medium/light units
- Make Stalker cheaper to increase the HP to cost ratio (remember, stalker + immortal should replicate Dragoon)
- Stalker should have slighty less damage vs medium/light since its cheaper.
- Rework PvZ balance which will work very differently with 1 gate expo into stalker + zealot + rift combo being able to provide map control for protoss early game.
Regardless of what happens in next patch, the math equation needs go up. We have been way too sloppy for way too long with crushing the numbers or testing stuff in the editor. Let's change that now.
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If dragoon and stalker are supposed to be in game then they gotta have different roles and different feel. Differences between immortal and stalker are clear. Both these units are quite fast with burst dmg, but immortal is much more durable, can't shoot up and stalker has blink. Add If dragoon is coming back then think about not only tweaking stats of stalker, but also how to make then feel different.
Maybe stalker can be. less of burst dmg unit? Maybe give him really high atk speed so you. have to actually position them (semi)close to enemy to be most effective? I think blink could have really good synergy with that.
Or Maybe something like phoenix ability from beta? overcharged, shooting at all opponents in range etc?
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On September 09 2013 22:20 Danko__ wrote:
If dragoon and stalker are supposed to be in game then they gotta have different roles and different feel. Differences between immortal and stalker are clear. Both these units are quite fast with burst dmg, but immortal is much more durable, can't shoot up and stalker has blink. Add If dragoon is coming back then think about not only tweaking stats of stalker, but also how to make then feel different.
Maybe stalker can be. less of burst dmg unit? Maybe give him really high atk speed so you. have to actually position them (semi)close to enemy to be most effective? I think blink could have really good synergy with that.
Or Maybe something like phoenix ability from beta? overcharged, shooting at all opponents in range etc?
The differences can be accomplished by changing the damage values. This what I actually ntended when I first suggested the Immortal + stalker combo. I wasn't sure back then whether it should have anti-air or not, but I was willing to test it. The reason this hasn't worked out is that the Immortal ended up with no real weakness vs medium and light units, but only had 1 gigantic weakness: It can't shoot up and air units become almost mandatory for terran to mix in vs protoss!
This has resulted in a completely different balance relative to BW where;
- Vultures are a bit weaker in Sbow
- Air units are much stronger
Most of the feedback from players haven't been particularly positive (not just thinking Dirty here). So I suggest some new values.
The desired weakness's and strenghts of the Stalker and the Immortal
+ Show Spoiler +Stalker
- Worse than Dragoon vs armored units
- Good damage vs medium units
- Decent vs light units,
both vs ground and air
Immortal
- Better than Dragoon vs armored units
- Bad vs medium units
- Bad vs light units
Both vs ground and air
Specific stats
+ Show Spoiler +Please note that these are approxomiate estimates, and further adjustments down the line likely need to be made
Immortal
Same cost and HP
Damage vs armored = 14*2
Damage vs light = 6*2
Damage vs medium = 8*2
Stalker.
Cost reduced to 100/50 from 125/50 --> 14% cheaper
Damage vs armored= 11 (from 12) --> 8% less damage
Damage vs light= 12 (from 14) --> 14% less damage
Damage vs medium = 15 (from 16) --> 6% less damage
The reason I prefer to make the Stalker cheaper rather than to increase the HP of the Stalker and buff its damage a bit is that it helps seperate the feeling of using the Stalker relative to the Immortal.
The Immortal now becomes better vs armored, nerfed vs medium + light and it has AA.
Stalker damage per cost is mantained vs light. Buffed vs medium and vs. armored. Its HP per cost is increased by 14%.
The math
+ Show Spoiler +
Taking into account that the Stalker is more agile and attacks faster than the Dragoon/Immortal, this benefits the Stalker mostly vs Vultures and other medium units and less so vs armored units.
I estimate that its "effective damage per shot" is roughly 12 vs Armored for the Stalker, and 19 vs Medium. These numbers are modified so we can compare them straight up to Immortals and Dragoons attack.
Let's compare these two unit compositions to each other;
5 stalkers + 4 Immortals (1200/550) vs. 10 Dragoons (1250/500).
Assuming 1 mineral = 1 gas, these two compositions have equal army value.
Vs armored the Stalkers + Immortals will deal an effective damage per shot of;
5 * 12 + 4 * 28 = 172
Dragoons will deal vs armored;
10 * 20 = 200
Vs medium, the Stalkers + Immortals will deal an effectie damage per shot of;
5* 19 + 4 * 16 = 159
Dragoons will deal vs medium;
10* 15 = 150
In terms of HP, the Stalkers + Immortal have the following values;
Heath = 100 * 5 + 100* 4 = 900
Shield: 60 * 5 + 130 *4 = 820
The Dragoons have;
Health = 100 * 10 = 1000
Shield = 80 * 100 = 800
Overall, I will argue that these values are close enough to get BW balance. We could consider stuff like reducing damage vs armored of either the Immortal or the Stalker slightly at the expense of slightly more HP.
The value of blinking on top of tanks for the Stalker could benefit the protoss player in three ways;
1) Result in more friendly fire
2) Give Immortals a better concave (though it is important to note here that BW maps in generally were more open, so this is not actually a buff relative to BW given map design).
3) Makes spider mines less effective (at least I think so?).
Thus it is possible that the protoss composition could fare a bit better here than in BW. Its tough to say and it probably won't result in more than +/- 5-10% relative to BW which I believe is acceptable for a mod. Of course we can make further adjustments down the road as well.
EDIT: I made an error by using 8 dragoons when I originally wrote this, and therefore my conclusion is incorrect. Even with this buff for protoss, they are still somewhat UP if we ignore the value of blink, sentinel and Scouts.
Other adjustments that likely has to be made
+ Show Spoiler +- Blink research cost increased to 200/200. Research time increased to 170 seconds to take into account that Stalker has been buffed quite a lot + protoss no longer is in such a desperate need of anti-air.
- Scout removed. It becomes unncessary with Immortal as anti-air to armored. It also cleans up the Stargate tech which currently has too many fast anti-ground units that kinda overlaps too each other.
- Phase Missile gets moved to a different unit, Archon, HT, Dark Archon maybe, Sentinel (fleet bacon upgrade), Corsair (fleet bacon upgrade) or Arbiter.
- Hydra HP increased from 80 to 90 to take into account that Protoss early game vs zerg has been buffed quite significantly since BW. The combo stalker + zealots is a lot more scary for zerg in the early game than dragoon + zealots in BW.
With these suggested changes, the Stalker deals 16.7% damage of the Hydra's HP per shot. Atm. it does 20% damage of Hydra HP per shot.
Thus, Stalker gets a damage/"HP of Hydra" nerf of 16.7%, which roughly takes into account that the Stalker now is 14.3% cheaper, this maintains the current balance pretty decently.
In terms of direct engagement with no buffer units, the Stalker will likely perform more cost efficient vs Hydras as the Stalker maintains its HP - This isn't a huge issue though as long as Lurkers still fares really well against Stalkers.
From my experience playing mech TvZ at the period where zerg had more larva than today, I didn't feel like terran was weak. Quite the opposite actually - It seemed that zerg was UP without Dark Swarm vs mech. So I actually think a Hydra buff here will do great for the balance of TvZ mech.
- Rift cost increased from 50 energy to 75. Early protoss pressure vs zerg is just a complete nobrainer now that zerg larva has been nerfed. The reward/investment ratio is just way too high.
- Cannons may need a shield buff so that protoss can still opt to play the old defensive 2 base tech style as in BW without dying to hydra pressure.
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On September 09 2013 10:32 Kabel wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +Nightly thoughts regarding Protoss and the core balance(I can´t sleep ^^ ) As you who follow this thread surely know, I have decided to opt a lot more for the BW balance. We have now basically rebuilt the BW balance. Then on top of that have we incorporated the new features of Starbow. And this seems to be a generally well received concept by you who play and observe this project. The game feels better now than ever before. But there is still one different piece in the basic balance, and this is my last large remaining headache. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F5Fx3yE.jpg) Why is the classic BW unit divided into two SC2 units?
What advantages do we get by having two Protoss core units instead? - More variations in play style, unit compositions and combats - More room for weaknesses and strengths to exploit or benefit from (Since the units are good at different things) - Better PvP - Warp in - Blink The Dragoon in BW was arguably the most well-rounded unit in the game. It was an extremely useful unit in all match-ups. How could you punish a player who went heavy Dragoons in PvP or TvP in BW? In terms of macro decisions, you could barely. But you could punish him with micro, since the Goon was so stupid. In detail, what properties did the Dragoon offer? - Good total life - Fast - Long attack range - High dmg vs armored, good dmg vs medium, bad dmg vs light - Anti air - All of this for the small cost of 125/50 If we look at relationships vs other units, the Goon did the following:>>> + Show Spoiler + PvZ: Very good dmg vs Lurker, Ultra, Sunken, good damage vs Hydras if supported by Zealots to protect them, could fight vs Mutalisks, but were weak vs Zerglings. PvT: Very good dmg vs Tanks & Goliaths, good enough to fend off Vultures, could destroy all Terran air units. Weak vs stimmed Marines and heavy Siege Tank fire, without Zealots in support. PvP: Very good dmg vs other Dragoons and all Protoss units.  Weak vs speed Zealots. <<< How can we balance the game without this crucial unit?>>> + Show Spoiler +I actually think it will be very very hard. Look at Z and T. None of their core units are removed. The basic balance is intact. Protoss is the only exception, since we have removed the Dragoon, and are now trying to make the Stalker/Immortal fit instead. And I think this will haunt the game for a long time. I feel like I have two options: 1) Continue to tweak the Immortal & Stalker and hope we finally get something good 2) Or I go more in line with the BW balance. And just let Starbow improve upon it. As with everything else. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1mMtE1t.jpg) This means that we bring back the Dragoon into the game with its BW stats. Decemberscalm blesses it with godly micro potential. This would allow us to truly get the basic balance complete. Then we also keep the Stalker as a more specialized unit.Not just one half of a Dragoon. For example: - Requires Twilight Council - Faster move speed than it currently has - Starts with 6 range - Slightly cheaper than Dragoons (Maybe 100/50) - Maybe modified stats, but strong vs medium & light, not as strong vs armored. - If needed, a second ability. This allows us to play around more with the Stalker, without messing with the basic balance, which we currently do. Dragoon can not be warped in. Stalker can be warped in. To make the Dragoon NOT as extremely versatile as in BW, we let Banshee, Corsair, Sentinel be Light or Medium, just as Mutalisks are. Thus Dragoons deal less dmg to them, and are inferior to Stalkers vs enemy mid game air play. Lets look at the match-ups:PvT: Heavy Dragoon play can be punished by Reapers harass, Vulture run-bys and Banshee play (Since Dragoons move speed have a harder time to keep up) Also good old Marine pushes. PvZ: Stalkers allows P to fight for map control in the mid game, and means that P must not rush for Corsairs/Storm/Archon as in BW. Blink Stalkers also helps to fight vs mass Mutalisks better than Goons do. PvP: Dragoons will surely be standard. But if we manage to get Stalkers balanced properly, they can become a strong harassment alternative, and good vs Zealots. Blink can be important to catch Reavers etc. <<<
To sum it up:+ Show Spoiler +We continue on our victory march towards BW balance. We bring back the Dragoon instead of Immortal, tweak other units so they can punish heavy Dragoon play. Then let the Stalker become more of a "specialized" unit. I think this will save us a lot of work, rather than trying to get the Immortal /Stalker to fit in the basic BW balance. This is not my idea. People here on the forums have talked a lot about it earlier. We could ofc also just keep the Immortal model and modify it to become a Dragoon by giving it an anti-air attack. But if we will go for BW balance, then I think we should do it 100% ^^ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=399#7961
What do you think about this approach?
Would this help us to finally nail Protoss?
I like this
To get the balance bw must not forget the old types of damage:
Normal: 100% vs all
Explosive: 100% vs large, 75% vs medium, 50% vs small.
Concussive: 100% vs small, 50% vs medium, 25% vs large.
In this case, stalker should do splash damage (8x2 type concussive) with a small radius, to make it a good counter of small / medium units.
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On September 10 2013 03:45 decemberscalm wrote:Prototype air micro Could be cool? + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qvY6RDinko&feature=youtu.be
not working
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Good calculations Hider. This helps to explain why the current Stalker & Immortal we have in the game do not fit with the BW balance - too many values are off in comparison to the Dragoon in BW.
With the Immortal and Stalker, we try to get BW balance, but also make room for more variations. In that regard, your suggested numbers might help us to reach that goal. But I can´t stop feeling like the Stalker & Immortal seems very similar to each other. I think a general desire among us all is to get the two units to feel different to some degree.
Lets compare your suggested calculated stats:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TyHyae1.jpg)
Would it be possible to do something like this?
(Red numbers shows changes)
>>>+ Show Spoiler +<<<
Also:
- Longer research time on Blink
- Immortal range upg cost increased from 100/100 to 150/150, just as in BW. (So it fits with Bunker pressure timing)
- The Stalker speed is still slightly slower than Speed Hydras. (They have 2.83)
Ofc we shall not change stuff just for the sake of being different. But could something like this help to further seperate the advantages/disadvantages of the respective units, while still maintaining quite close BW balance? Or would the impact on the gameplay/balance be too severe?
Anyway, my general concerns with the Stalker/Immortal approach:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
How can we get the dmg values properly?
You gave an example Hider of values that fits much better with the BW Dragoon value. But since all units now use the BW dmg system, with 100% dmg vs unit type A, 75% vs unit type B, 50% vs unit type C, we need to stay consistent? Thus we must find dmg values that fits into this? Or is it necessary to break the system and make exceptions? (Your suggested numbers do not fit with this rule.) : - /
Will the Immortal feel too strange now?
It is a SC2 unit that is completely reworked: It shoots air, is much weaker, has projectiles, no shield ability and is built from the Gateway. And this messes with what players are used to see from that unit? "Wtf the Immortals shoot my Banshee!" Kinda as if we had the Roach in the game, made it 80 HP and it could shoot air.
Other potential approaches:
- We use the suggested stats for Immortal/Stalker, but just replaces the Immortal with the Dragoon. (Still keeps the new Immortal values)
- We bring back the Dragoon exactly as in BW. Then we let the Stalker be its own unit.
- We just bring back the Dragoon and forgets about Stalker & Immortal.
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@December
I think it has strong potential. More room for micro in combats = more skill = more gg 
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Sry my numbers are completely off. For some reason I used 8 dragoons in my damage comparisons rather than 10.
This is the new values;
Vs armored the Stalkers + Immortals will deal an effective damage per shot of;
5 * 12 + 4 * 28 = 172
Dragoons will deal vs armored;
10 * 20 = 200
Vs medium, the Stalkers + Immortals will deal an effectie damage per shot of;
5* 19 + 4*16 = 159
Dragoons will deal vs medium;
10* 15 = 150
Thus, it seems slightly UP actually vs armored. Its tough to say though exactly how much blink matters here. If we stay with these units it would probably be a good idea to make a lot of tests regarding how much exactly blink helps vs tanks and then we can make a seperate estimated value for blink that we can add into the equations.
But these stats actually clearly shows how extremely underpowered protoss is atm. vs mech without Scout/Sentinel "abuse". Basically, atm protoss have the following differneces compared to BW protoss;
- Much less damage vs armored units
- A bit higher damage vs medium units
- Much worse anti-air
- Much less HP
Would it be possible to do something like this?
Highly unlikely. Or I mean protoss will basically be forced into 1 gate twilight (after expo maybe) every game vs terran to survive banshee/vulture openings.
But since all units now use the BW dmg system, with 100% dmg vs unit type A, 75% vs unit type B, 50% vs unit type C, we need to stay consistent? Thus we must find dmg values that fits into this? Or is it necessary to break the system and make exceptions? (Your suggested numbers do not fit with this rule.) : - /
I don't understand why we have to stick with this rule? I don't think we can have a stalker and an Immortal if they do basically the same damage.
We use the suggested stats for Immortal/Stalker, but just replaces the Immortal with the Dragoon. (Still keeps the new Immortal values)
I think the Immortal model looks a lot better than the Dragoon model which is pretty ugly.
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On September 10 2013 03:45 decemberscalm wrote:Prototype air micro Could be cool? + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qvY6RDinko&feature=youtu.be
how'd you do this? Ballistic driver on the missile mover + small Impact Range on the missile effect?
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On September 10 2013 03:45 decemberscalm wrote:Prototype air micro Could be cool? + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qvY6RDinko&feature=youtu.be
Wow it looks awesome to micro vs mutalisks. But will that damage only be for air vs air units? Seems a bit unlikely that it can be balanced vs ground units?
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Highly unlikely. Or I mean protoss will basically be forced into 1 gate twilight (after expo maybe) every game vs terran to survive banshee/vulture openings.
Keep in mind Dragoons in BW had range 4 and gained +2 from upgrade. And they defended fine vs Vultures & Wraiths. Wraiths were also a lot faster than Banshees are. Not sure how the Dragoon speed would be in Starbow. But I think it would be close to the Immortal/Stalker value we use now. Protoss also has Sentinel, which both can help to defend AND put early pressure on T, which forces Goliaths and reduces the amount of Vultures.
Just pure speculation ofc.
I don't understand why we have to stick with this rule? I don't think we can have a stalker and an Immortal if they do basically the same damage.
I was unclear. I do not mean all values must be the same vs the same armor type. If so, we would indeed not get any difference between Stalker and Immortal. I just mean we use a percentage based reduction system for all attacks. We can ofc break it if necessary. But I just think it is better to stay consistent. And the BW percentage system is so crucial for the BW balance.
Anyway, I will also dig into into Stalker + Immortal dmg values now.
Edit: Here is the "system"
To get the balance bw must not forget the old types of damage:
Normal: 100% vs all
Explosive: 100% vs large, 75% vs medium, 50% vs small.
Concussive: 100% vs small, 50% vs medium, 25% vs large.
We can ofc play around with the percentage values for a new type of attack so it fits.
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Sry made another error. Used wrong damage value for Stalkers vs medium. Hopefully the math is correct now.
Its 10 dragoons vs 5 stalkers + 4 Immortals.
I assume Stalkers deal an effective damage vs medium of 19 per shot. Its "actual damage" is just 15 with my suggestions.
I assume Stalkers deal an effective damage vs armored of 12. Its "actual damage" is just 11
The differences here between effective damage value and "actual damage" per shot is caused by two factors;
- Stalkers have a faster attack speed
- Stalkers being more agile (moves better than Dragoon/immortal) makes it much better at dealing with medium units such as hydralisks, vultures, banshee's.
Therefore I have made a subjective estimate and assumed that its "fair" damage is 19 vs these units. Below, are the updated damage values.
Vs armored the Stalkers + Immortals will deal an effective damage per shot of;
5 * 12 + 4 * 28 = 172
Dragoons will deal vs armored;
10 * 20 = 200
Vs medium, the Stalkers + Immortals will deal an effectie damage per shot of;
5* 19 + 4*16 = 159
Dragoons will deal vs medium;
10* 15 = 150
This looks alot better. Changing the mix slightly so we have a higher Immo/stalker ratio will overall do a better job of replicating the Dragoon. Yes damage vs armored will still be a bit lower, but then the Sentinel can kick in add another 5-10% value. The differences here are small enough that they shouldn't be noticeable balance issues untill the metagame gets figured out.
Keep in mind Dragoons in BW had range 4 and gained +2 from upgrade. And they defended fine vs Vultures & Wraiths. Wraiths were also a lot faster than Banshees are. Not sure how the Dragoon speed would be in Starbow. But I think it would be close to the Immortal/Stalker value we use now. Protoss also has Sentinel, which both can help to defend AND put early pressure on T, which forces Goliaths and reduces the amount of Vultures.
Im pretty sure banshee's are a lot better than Wraiths vs protoss. With my suggested stats, Immortals will be worse than Dragoons vs medium units and range upgrade for Dragoon comes faster than Stalker tech.
Thus, it will skew openings in favour of medium units being a lot better than in BW. Is this desireable or just an unnecesary difference? Otherwise I don't see what it will accomplish?
Twilight openings will regardless be much more prefered which means that protoss is a lot less likely to tech to warp prism drop openings. Stargate openings can at least still provide defense vs vultures and banshee's. If you go for a robo out of 1-2 gateways your extremely vulnerable to medium units harass as you barely have any units early game.
Thinking about it: This can't actually work as vs a cloack banshee opening you will need actually need robo for observer regardless. Then you have to defend against banshee's with just Immortals while teching to twilight. If you don't tech to twilight relatively quickly you will have a super difficult time if terran continues to pump out banshee's.
I believe that constrain will give an unnecesary advantage to terran relatve to BW:
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Can you post the values you use, after the corrections? Makes it easier for an overview
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Stalker shoot around 0.12 faster than a dragoon, iam assuming the immortal shoots as fast as an dragoon.
Maybe he even shoots 0.02 slower.
I dont think this is 19dps with just that value of dps more
Also, the immortal moves slower than a dragoon.
A worker moves in 2.5, the dragoon moves faster than this.
Hard to tell excactly now, stalker might be slightly faster, i assume max 0.1 faster, not more than that.
He might be more agile but to a very small degree
Also, if immortal stays, atleast have him move as fast as an dragoon. Right now workers can hunt him down.
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On September 10 2013 05:53 Foxxan wrote:
Stalker shoot around 0.12 faster than a dragoon, iam assuming the immortal shoots as fast as an dragoon.
Maybe he even shoots 0.02 slower.
I dont think this is 19dps with just that value of dps more
Also, the immortal moves slower than a dragoon.
A worker moves in 2.5, the dragoon moves faster than this.
Hard to tell excactly now, stalker might be slightly faster, i assume max 0.1 faster, not more than that.
He might be more agile but to a very small degree
Also, if immortal stays, atleast have him move as fast as an dragoon. Right now workers can hunt him down.
I explained how I came to the 19 damage in the above post. Obviously this is a subjective estimate and may not exactly be the correct number. However, I believe this estimate is a lot more likely to the "truth" than the 16 DPS value
The DPSs just one small factor. Mainly its the agility which makes stalkers a lot better vs Vultures, Hydras and banshee's than the Immortal/Dragoon.
Since agility helps much in most situations less vs armored units, I only increased its effective damage vs armored units from 11 to 12.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2vzIMs9.jpg)
