EPT[A] Starbow - Page 397
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This is not a perfect patch by any means. But I wanna try how the Immortal at Gateway feels before I do further changes. - Gateway can now produce Immortals (Warpgate can not) - Immortal dmg is 12x2 vs armored, 9x2 vs medium, 6x2 vs light. * - Immortal starts with range 5 as before. I have not added any range upg yet. - Scout cost increased by 50 minerals. - Safeguard range reduced by 1. - Sentinel still at the Stargate. (Which means that the Robotic facility produces Observer, Warp Prism and Reaver) - Marauder life increased from 100 to 110. * This is due to the percentage based reduction vs each armor class. The Immortal attack is a bit tricky and I don´t want to mess up Decembers shield bonus damage system. A better value might probably need to come in the near future. December has also done some bug fixes and additional BW work. I upload now so can we try it and see how we can improve it further. The main point is to try Immortal at Gateway, to see if it helps to fix PvT and P vs mass Lurkers. (As Goons could in BW) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Immortal on gateway Great choice, a must needed one. Reducing stats also a much needed one imo. When i played terran and got dropped with two immortals. SO much firepower compared to two dragoons. It is like those two immortals can take out my two defending siegetanks relatively easy, which was not the case with the dragoons. Also, what this will do is making the vulture a more fair fight. It will become more micro from both parts. I still feel the immortal is to big, to little space for vultures. @warpin units Kabel wrote a good argument here, i just dont see it working with immortals/dragoons at all. Even zealots might be a problem but not as much as the immo. Though overall the warpgate removes a core part of what bw is made of, it would fit the dt maybe, just maybe. Though i want it removed cuz it will remove gameplay quite alot the more we play @safegaurd Right now when protoss casts it, for your goliaths to reach the sentinel they must walk very closeby where the spell is casted and many hungry protoss units are. I cant think of a good "counter" for terran vs safegaurd atm. Vikings though i have not tested. I guess u would need around 6 to kill it fast enough. I dont call that a good "counter" it messes up macro from terran to much | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
It is like those two immortals can take out my two defending siegetanks relatively easy, which was not the case with the dragoons ARe you taking into account they are more expensive? | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Scout vs terran apparently may seem harmless but if we consider the phase missile, can be a threat to bio (vs medic). In case of mechs, adding some corsairs at scouts, the latter can snipe tanks, slowing down heavily terran. Scout vs protoss use is similar at terran: the favorite victims of the scouts will be the caster and reavers. All this thanks to the graviton beam of the corsair. Ground weapon of scouts greatly limits this type of micro, the best thing is to remove this weapon. Imagine a new kind of dancing for protoss but using corsair and scout together. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
its an expensive unit combo for what it do. Graviton beam is a 45 second cooldown on top of that. Scouts were very underused in broodwar. Cant see it work out in a real game, especially versus zerg, u have much more important units to make ARe you taking into account they are more expensive Yes iam, still a buff cuz otherwise u would need two warpprism for the same power as now @banshees How do protoss beat this unit? Scout? Sure. But in a big battle, how? Banshees, siegetanks, goliaths. If u add stalkers, they are useless. They wanna fire at the banshee. Siegetanks kills stalker. So your unit compositions is zealot, immortal, scout. Scout fires at the banshees? They have support from Goliaths. How do protoss engage the terran armee? Zealots tank. They wanna get close to tanks. Banshees do huge damage to ground. Immortas are dead if the scouts die, and vice versa. The banshee seems to me to be superstrong. Even with the dragoon, i would found it hard for protoss. Though much more chance | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
add list updates. On September 08 2013 04:57 Foxxan wrote: @corsair+scout its an expensive unit combo for what it do. Graviton beam is a 45 second cooldown on top of that. Scouts were very underused in broodwar. Cant see it work out in a real game, especially versus zerg, u have much more important units to make Yes iam, still a buff cuz otherwise u would need two warpprism for the same power as now In a PvsX, 5 corsairs and 2 or 3 scouts can destroy 5 workers/lurkers/tanks/reaver every 45/60 seconds, and give map control. I recommend everyone to try. Using these units for all the duration of the game, repays. Remember to replace the dead units with the new. It 'sa bit like zerg does with mutalisks but in a different way. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On September 08 2013 04:57 Foxxan wrote: @corsair+scout its an expensive unit combo for what it do. Graviton beam is a 45 second cooldown on top of that. Scouts were very underused in broodwar. Cant see it work out in a real game, especially versus zerg, u have much more important units to make Yes iam, still a buff cuz otherwise u would need two warpprism for the same power as now @banshees How do protoss beat this unit? Scout? Sure. But in a big battle, how? Banshees, siegetanks, goliaths. If u add stalkers, they are useless. They wanna fire at the banshee. Siegetanks kills stalker. So your unit compositions is zealot, immortal, scout. Scout fires at the banshees? They have support from Goliaths. How do protoss engage the terran armee? Zealots tank. They wanna get close to tanks. Banshees do huge damage to ground. Immortas are dead if the scouts die, and vice versa. The banshee seems to me to be superstrong. Even with the dragoon, i would found it hard for protoss. Though much more chance Yeah sure, go Banshee-Tank-Goliath-Vulture-Science Vessel and you have the ultimate army... Untill the Protoss walks all over you cause you have barely any units. You can't have all units at once and expect to have a big army. Every Banshee you make is a Goliath or Tank less in your main army. If you sacrifice Tanks to get the Banshees you get stomped by Immortals; if you sacrifice Goliaths you get beaten by Scouts. If you have all units in enough numbers to win then you should look at how your opponent got so far behind. Or... If you really can go for all these units and beat a Protoss reliably, then the Banshee is far too effective for its cost. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
i think u can have them all cuz if u go banshee, protoss needs to react >stalker or scout He cant just mass big armee and walkover it Which with the dragoon would maybe work banshee right nowdo more damage than a stalker. 22 damage for him, equal damage as immortal highest Every Banshee you make is a Goliath or Tank less in your main army. If you sacrifice Tanks to get the Banshees you get stomped by Immortals dont make sence to me ? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
@immortal Would be nice to see the size reduced in next patch, right now the big size is a nerf to him against hydras/Lurkers. I know it can be a buff against aoe attacks i guess, but it doesnt make up for it at all imo Also this encourage more vulture vs immortal play, right now they take so much space. And dont forget the range upgrade. The dragoon upgrade is 150/150. I see no reason to make it higher since stalk/immo is already a nerf @medic Also for next patch replace their stim with a speedboost? Have it 10sec cooldown, thats how long stim is @reaver Range 10 > 8 Right now when u stim your marines and medics, the medics stay there and healthemself. ------------ STALKER i did some light unit testing Against zerglings, he dies horrible. His extra damage does no justice for his lower health. With blink micro against slow lings, he still die horrible. Against hydras, even with blink micro he dies horrible. I tried Two stalkers vs three hydras without blink, two hydras left. Two dragoons would win here i think. 20 blinkstalkers vs 17hydras, the stalkers have no chance(with blink usage). His 16 damage is useless here, its still the same amount of shots since the hydra have zerg reg However, against vultures its one less shot for stalker. Which is terrible imo Two vultures for one stalker. I did some amove test, the vultures do not do a bad job. It was five stalkers vs 10 vultures The only positive thing with the stalker for me, is he do better job against terran bio than the dragoon, well a second positive thing also, pvp is more fun it seems. In bw it was dragoon/reaver of one base mostly. @sentinel How about a spell that removes the next shot against him. Shotremover 35energy Target: Himself or allies. Effect: Next shot against him do no damage. Spell effect no use Can work in pvp against reaver, also work versus mechplay, siegetank shots. In PvZ, i dont know really. Everything shoots so fast, against lurkers slightly. Can be used to keep some key units alive. Like reavers. Can work against abduct. Maybe some other spell i cant think of also What you think? Some other thoughts. I think corsairs with their lift might work in pvt. 5stargate>mass corsair, might be good. Especially if he goes banshees. And especially if he is in the dark about it. Both pvz and pvt is very hard with the stalker/immortal combo. Its not fun either, people say they want a choice but for me, stalker is not a choice its a burden. Now when terran also have their banshee instead of wraith, protoss need their dragoon more than ever. Where is he? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
STALKER i did some light unit testing Against zerglings, he dies horrible. His extra damage does no justice for his lower health. With blink micro against slow lings, he still die horrible. Against hydras, even with blink micro he dies horrible. I tried Two stalkers vs three hydras without blink, two hydras left. Two dragoons would win here i think. 20 blinkstalkers vs 17hydras, the stalkers have no chance(with blink usage). His 16 damage is useless here, its still the same amount of shots since the hydra have zerg reg Stalker have one clear role in the early game PvZ. Before legspeed is done it allows protoss to do damage to hydralisks which makes kiting less efficient. So its not supposed to be a massaable unit, but its the damage-dealer with zealots as the buffer unit. Try to test this in the unit tester; 1) Slow zealots of equal cost vs double-upgraded hydras that kites 2) Slow zealots + stalkers of equal cost vs doubleupgrades hydras witht either individual mciro or group kiting. In scenario 1, double upgrades hydras can kite forever without taking damage. In scenario 2, the protoss player wins as Stalkers have pretty good DPS. It wouldn't surprise me if Protoss fared worse in BW due to Dragoon having worse synergy with the slowzealot than stalkers have in Sbow. Both pvz and pvt is very hard with the stalker/immortal combo. Its not fun either, people say they want a choice but for me, stalker is not a choice its a burden. I kinda agree. We should try to make this feel more optional rather than a neccesity. I have suggested some changes to Kabel that hopefully will accomplish this. The problem with the current version of the stalker and the immortal is Immortal is just an all round with one gigantic weakness: No anti-air. This leaves no choice, you need to get the Stalker for anti-air. But rather I believe that Immortal should be a bit more specialized and then we get rid of the no anti-air damage. This means that you can actually deal with banshees and dropships with enough Immortals but its damage will be quite low and without blink it is still kinda immobile. This means mixing in Stalkers are still a good thing in these situations. Relative to BW, the Immortal I imagine is; - A bit more cost efficient vs pure tanks - A bit less cost efficienct vs vultures - Has a harder time dealing with drops and banshee's (wraiths) --> But the difference with this Immortal is that you can do it now. It is harder but not impossible which IMO creates options in the gameplay. So I believe stalker will still have a role with these changes but it is no longer a neccesity to mix in stalkers in certain situations. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
Yeah sure, go Banshee-Tank-Goliath-Vulture-Science Vessel and you have the ultimate army... Untill the Protoss walks all over you cause you have barely any units. You can't have all units at once and expect to have a big army. Every Banshee you make is a Goliath or Tank less in your main army. If you sacrifice Tanks to get the Banshees you get stomped by Immortals; if you sacrifice Goliaths you get beaten by Scouts. If you have all units in enough numbers to win then you should look at how your opponent got so far behind. Or... If you really can go for all these units and beat a Protoss reliably, then the Banshee is far too effective for its cost. You really need to start playing the game  | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Stalker have one clear role in the early game PvZ No he dont Try to test this in the unit tester; 1) Slow zealots of equal cost vs double-upgraded hydras that kites 2) Slow zealots + stalkers of equal cost vs doubleupgrades hydras witht either individual mciro or group kiting. i have done it 100th times with dragoon/zealot in bw It wouldn't surprise me if Protoss fared worse in BW due to Dragoon having worse synergy with the slowzealot in Sbow ? maybe we can look at buffing Blink now Buffing blink is very dangerous. Makes the enemy powerless, imagine if stalker is a really great combat unit. Now with blink enemy cant catch him, just en example | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
No he dont i have done it 100th times with dragoon/zealot in bw If Dragoon has that role in BW, the Stalker also has that role in PvZ (cus the stalker has more DPS, faster BT and moves faster). The issue here isn't whether it has a role or not, but whether it is good enough. You say you have done it 100 times in BW; but did you trade cost efficiently against equal army size with those units? ? Dragoon has a lot of HP but less DPS, which makes it synergize worse with buffer units than the stalker vs hydralisks. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
The issue here isn't whether you think it has a role or not, but whether it is good enough And yet u claim you know he has a clear role in early pvz If Dragoon has that role in BW, the Stalker also has that role in PvZ (cus the stalker has more DPS, faster BT and moves faster Get your facts straight please? You dont even know what u are saying He have the same movementspeed as the dragoon. More dps, yes he do, but its minor. Also, the dragoon is more about burst than sustained dps, you didnt know this. I just checked the BT in tester, four ingame seconds faster. If Dragoon has that role in BW, the Stalker also has that role in PvZ what? Let me ask you one question, do you even understand pvz in broodwar? Dont answer that question, lets end the "discussion" | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
He have the same movementspeed as the dragoon. According to Dec (Kabel told me this), the Dragoon is slower than the Stalker. And yet u claim you know he has a clear role in early pvz It accomplishes something at a time other units can't. That's what characterizes a role. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Reworked the micro system: hydras, goliaths, and marines should all be more agile What about zealots? They feel abit slower,i think | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
b]Test 1:[/b] 5 zealots + 3 Immortals (4 dragoons roughly) vs an equal army of double upgraded hydras. With constant kiting only like 2 hydras (or so) die before immortals are left. Then hydras can clean up the Immortals. Something like 3-4 survives after the battle. Test 2 5 zealots + 4 stalkers vs same army of hydras. Even with constant kiting here, stalkers + zealots now wins as Stalkers are much more agile and does a much better job of attacking while Hydras retreat. Conclusion: If the assumption is correct that Immortals = 1.3 Dragoon, then Stalkers + zealots is a big buff early game for toss, and I strongly suggest that we don't think about reducing the cost of Stalkers any further. With these relations, I expect that we will see a completley new metagame compared to BW which likely could have a large impact on balance. | ||
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