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Gateway units/immortal are now balanced to do well in the midgame to 'make multitasking more viable early in the game', this has as side effect that it becomes viable even in the endgame, protoss hardly needs tech backup. In bw you needed big surrounds to trade well with gateway only or you needed storm and statis to trade well, in starbow storm radius doesn't feel big enough vs mech, so it's hardly worth it. Protoss needs to be designed to tech, you need a reason to tech, if you can hold midgame timing pushes of bio with pure gateway units then protoss just isn't designed as it should be, you need a reaver to deal with that and that also makes protoss fun to play, as those tech units are strong and can be micro'd well. The balance we need is where tech units are really strong when babysitted but weak when you're not watching them, this is where the multitasking comes for protoss, instead of moving one ball and poking until you see a hole, that's boring and doesn't need a lot skill.
Kinda agree here. One of the fun thing about BW PvT was how it combined the mobility advantage of protoss with battle micro abilities. I believe the same thing is hard to accomplish in Sbow as units simply clump up much more efficient in Sbow, and of course, this effect is made even worse due to the fact that you need to spread your self so thinly so fast in Sbow. Thus mobile units are ridicilously good in Sbow.
Reaver is prob useless atm vs mech as vikings just shuts it down. Every game I played where either I didn't get viking or my opponent didn't get it (when I played as toss) felt a lot more fun and fair.
So to sum up, I overall see two different types of solutions;
Solution 1
- Make bases hard to take --> Force defender to spread himself more thinly
- Make the defensive player even more cost effective against mobile units --> Rewards aggressor for adding in more high tech/micro oriented units.
With these change I believe a viking redesign/removal is less needed as we still can see some type of harass/armytrading here due to the mech player spreading himself more thinly.
Solution 2: The BW'ish way and probably the "easiest".
- Make bases easy to take --> This forces the aggressor to become more cost effective in battles as he won't have such an economic lead --> Rewards him for adding in more high tech/micro oriented units.
- Make warp prism harass a bit stronger early midgame (viking redesign/removal absolutely needed here) --> We will see a bit of action for the first 15-20 minutes of the game.
Thus, we will see a bit of light harass here for the first 15-20 minutes, but no real army trading will occur untill the terran can afford it.
With both solutions I believe the higher warp in time should be added.
Solid prefers solution 2. Personally, I am bit undecided. Solution 2 is definitely the easiest to balance, but also as a specatator I believe I will just alt tab quite often untill the terran takes a 4th. I guess in BW the mechanics were so hard by them selves, so dealing with a bit of harass was kinda difficult. However, in Sbow the skill cap might just be too low if that's all that is gonna happen for a majority of the game.
I guess, I would still try to find a way to make Solution 1 work (buff tanks and possibly spider mine change as well), and keep the latter solution as a back-up plan.
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@A potential next patch based on what is already in the game, with as few changes as possible
Ok, here are the problems many of you claim:
- Too hard to secure bases as Terran in TvP
- Too easy to break Terran bases with mass Gateway units + Blink Stalkers
- Too hard for T to harass vs P (Due to Cannons + Warp in)
- Too easy for Vikings to deny Warp prism + Sentinel harassment
- Vulture run-bys too strong in TvP (Forces P to defend defend defend)
- Not fun to play Protoss since tech units are almost not needed. (Gateway army so strong and versatile in PvT and PvZ)
- No reason to build Immortals
- No way for T to deal splash damage vs Zerglings/Banelings early. (Before Spider mines or Reaper splash upgrade)
- Bio is so weak in TvP and gets beaten by the Gateway army. It is so hard to transition out of it into mech.
Ok, lets look at some potential adjustements:
- Too hard to secure bases as Terran in TvP
- Too easy to break Terran bases with mass Gateway units + Blink Stalkers
>>>+ Show Spoiler +I recently made Tanks cost 3 supply instead of 2 and take +5 extra seconds to build.
(I wanted to open up for more bio play, as a more supply efficient option in the early/mid game.)
This can be reverted.
Alternatively can tanks gain + 5 dmg. With +1 weapon upgrade will they 2-shot Stalkers.
If you look at combats, the Gateway army can move into a Mine field without taking much damage. This is because Spider mines deal full damage to each other. When the first mine explodes, all mines nearby are killed too. (I noticed this today. In the old Starbow file, I had made so Mines did less dmg vs each other.) This would improve their zooning potential a lot.
Also, if Spider mines life is increased by 5, it will be possible to cast Mines on top of enemy Stalkers once again, without the mines being killed instantly. (Since it takes 3-shots to kill the mine instead of 2.) Would also make them even better in front of Tanks to defend sieged positions. (At least vs pure Gateway units.)
Nerve Jammer can be reverted from 125 energy to 100 energy. Earlier in Starbow, they did a great job at preventing mass Stalkers from Blinking into Tanks. Just place it on the spot where the Blink happens. Now I never see it anymore. (Maybe due to high casting cost.)
- Too hard for T to harass vs P (Due to Cannons + Warp in)
>>>+ Show Spoiler +Warp in is problematic. But I would still like to keep it in the game since I think it is fun.
- Make it require Twilight council.
- Each warped in unit takes 10 or 12 seconds to warp in.
- Each Warp gate costs resources to transform into. (Or just longer cooldown on warp in. I have not decided yet.)
Reaper currently has an upgrade that gives them the bomb ability. Place a bomb at target location to deal high dmg vs structures etc. I can buff this even more. Maybe 2-3 of those blows up a Cannon, then send in Vultures. (Or whatever)
As far as I know, no one has tried this yet. We also have cheaper Nukes in the game. Faster to calldown at the location. Not sure if it is realistic.
- Too easy for Vikings to deny Warp prism + Sentinel harassment
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- Viking range reduced by 1.
- Viking dmg reduced from 10x2 to 9x2.
- Sentinel speed increased from 3 to 3.25 (Same as Viking)
- Warp Prism speed increased from 3.25 to 3.5 (4 with speed upgrade)
<<<
- Vulture run-bys too strong in TvP (Forces P to defend defend defend)
>>>+ Show Spoiler +I am not sure this is a problem. Or rather, why is it a problem here and was not in BW?
- Stalkers are even better vs Vultures now compared to how Dragoons were in BW.
- Nexus has Rift
- Vultures 3-shot Probes instead of 2-shot.
But if something must be done, the speed upgrade can be replaced with a damage vs light - upgrade. Vultures deal less dmg vs light in the early game, and become stronger in the mid-game.
- Not fun to play Protoss since tech units are almost not needed. (Gateway army so strong and versatile in PvT and PvZ)
- No reason to build Immortals
>>>+ Show Spoiler +This can be of several reasons:
- Gateway units are too good
- Enemy units are too bad and dies vs Gateway units
- Tech units are too bad for Protoss
- The metagame is at a point where tech units are not needed.
But if something must be done:
- Immortal cost reduced from 150/100 to 150/75.
- Immortal start with the Absorb ability. (Requires no upgrade.)
- Stalker dmg reduced FROM 14 vs medium & light, 12 vs armored, TO 12 vs everything. (Same DPS as in SC2)
Now Immortals are "needed" due to their insane firepower, compared to Stalkers, even versus Hydras. Stalkers will need support spells, like Safeguard from Sentinel, Psi Storm, Stasis field or something more to be efficient in combat in the late game.
Current stats:
Life 100
Shield 150
Dmg 30 vs light, 40 vs medium and armored
Attack cooldown 2.5 seconds. (1.5 in SC2)
Speed 2.5 (2.25 in SC2)
Abosrb has 60 seconds cooldown and lasts 7 seconds. When activated, enemy projectiles deal no dmg vs the Immortal. (Marauder, Vulture, Hydra, Muta, Stalker, Cannons and so on)
One problem with reducing the Stalker dmg is that it will be weaker for early pressure. I find it enjoyable that early Stalker + Zealot pressure is viable in PvZ. But some of you do not like it.
This might also effect PvZ vs Mutas. (Earlier it was very hard for P to deal with them)
But if Mutas life is reduced from 120 to 110 or 100, then it might be evened out. (Plus Mutas will be worse vs Hydras in ZvZ, which opens up for more playsyles. Not sure about TvZ though.)
- No way for T to deal splash damage vs Zerglings/Banelings early. (Before Spider mines or Reaper splash upgrade)
- Bio is so weak in TvP and gets beaten by the Gateway army. It is so hard to transition out of it into mech.
>>>+ Show Spoiler +BW has the Firebat. Sc2 the Hellion. Starbow has the splash upgrade for Reapers... But it is not realistic because it comes too late into the game. T seems to have a hard time to deal with early mass Zerglings. (Not even Banelings)
One potential solution:
- Give a small splash damage effect to the Marauder.
It currently deals 12 vs light, 16 vs medium, 20 vs armored. (2 second cooldown.)
Would 3-shot Zerglings. Would become a bit stronger vs early mass Stalkers (if clumped) and might force the need of Immortals with the Absorb ability, or Sentinels/Scout. Or Zealots. (Just do not clump them!)
The damage values would surely need to be tweaked.
The Reaper splash upgrade can be removed.
T says it is hard to transition out of Bio vs Protoss, or add in tech units. One way to make it easier can be to do this:
- Stimpack takes 110 or 80 seconds to research instead of 170. Requires Factory.
It will still finish at the same time in the game, but it "forces" Terran up the tech tree, and makes it easier to add mech/air units to the bio army, since the Factory is needed anyway.
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Reaver is prob useless atm vs mech as vikings just shuts it down. Every game I played where either I didn't get viking or my opponent didn't get it (when I played as toss) felt a lot more fun and fair.
That doesn't actually make sence Hider... Vikings are very accesable, coming from reactored Starports. If they really works so well to shut down warp prisms, then it shouldn't work vs Bio either. I would like to explore what makes this strat so much better for mech than for bio. Vikings are not mech exclusive, that is the actually the point of the design.
Besides there are simpler ways to adjust towards this than just completely wreck the viking. For a starters we could bring the Warp prisms Health and Shields up to its SC2 values. It is actually the only dropship right now with reduced HP compared to SC2. Second we could cut one range of vikings if it is such a big deal. It should have a decent effect as stalkers below the viking now outrange them. (Edit: Dammit Ninjaed by Kabel :| )
I don't see the need for so huge adjustments. Lets just try to keep it simple and work with what we got.
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I am not sure this is a problem. Or rather, why is it a problem here and was not in BW?
Don't think it was different from BW either, but I guess in BW you could still do a bit of zealot in shuttle on top of tanks or reaver drops in the early midgame. With marines and goliaths it opened the game for a bit of micro during that period while protoss had most of his units (dragoons) to defend at home.
That doesn't actually make sence Hider... Vikings are very accesable, coming from reactored Starports. If they really works so well to shut down warp prisms, then it shouldn't work vs Bio either. I would like to explore what makes this strat so much better for mech than for bio. Vikings are not mech exclusive, that is the actually the point of the design.
Bio scales a lot worse and has more mobility so dealing with warp prism drops is 1) A lot easier with pure bio units (than with tanks and vulturs, and B) the punishment for turtling with bio + viking/turrets is a lot higher than with mech.
Besides there are simpler ways to adjust towards this than just completely wreck the viking. For a starters we could bring the Warp prisms Health and Shields up to its SC2 values. It is actually the only dropship right now with reduced HP compared to SC2. Second we could cut one range of vikings if it is such a big deal. It should have a decent effect as stalkers below the viking now outrange them. (Edit: Dammit Ninjaed by Kabel :| )
This really doesn't matter. If you can't go into a base with a reaver + warp prism in the early midgame and safely escape with good micro, then it is never viable. Vs goliaths/marines you can always escape and thus it opens up for micro battles.
If I have a viking, I am like "Yeh just go into my base and suicide those 1-2 reavers to kill 1-2 vultures and 1-2 scvs. That is fine by me. Meanwhile I am taking a super fast 3rd and you can't punish it as you have invested so much into ineffective tier 3."
Thus, viking rewards protoss players for getting lots of tier 1/2 units out early game, securing map control and gaining an economic advantage while playing disciplined vs vulture runbys.
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And what did Protoss do vs the Wraith?
Or rather, why is not the same playstyle possible now with early Zealot ´+ Warp Prism harass? Warp Prism are even cheaper than Shuttles are.
As long as the Viking is slower than the Warp Prism, and can not instant kill it, or kill it very very easy, is this such a big deal?
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From
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Wraith
Compared to the Viking, the Wraith is more expensive, slower to build and has much lower air-to-air range, but has the advantages of cloaking, higher speed, and being able to attack ground targets. The damage output of their missiles is a trade-off - the Viking's missiles do more damage (10 +4 versus the wraith's 5 +5), but the Wraith attacks faster. The Viking also has the advantage of not requiring a tech lab, though this is circumvented if the player gets tech reactors.
Basically, it probably came down to wraith not being a strong viable option early midgame vs protoss in bw, so people didn't use it in that way very often. That was probably good for the game as it would be much more boring is if it was a superior opening.
Maybe part of the explanation also is that it was harder for the terran to scout early game, so he couldn't scout whether the protoss was going for reaver drop opening on 2 base or whether he was playing a more unit-heavy style, and since the starport required a tech lab, it was harder to tech to wraiths as a response to Reavers inside your base.
In Sbow though, OC's are lower tech, and with reapers it is quite easy to scout the protoss base and thus react with vikings.
Kabel, you previously said you thought the interaction the viking had vs protoss units were fun early midgame. Yesterday, you saw how it just shuts down reaver harass.
Can you show me one example where you believe it works well/it makes the game more fun when it is used in its patrol/prevent-role?
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+ Show Spoiler +BW has the Firebat. Sc2 the Hellion. Starbow has the splash upgrade for Reapers... But it is not realistic because it comes too late into the game. T seems to have a hard time to deal with early mass Zerglings. (Not even Banelings)
One potential solution:
- Give a small splash damage effect to the Marauder.
It currently deals 12 vs light, 16 vs medium, 20 vs armored. (2 second cooldown.)
Would 3-shot Zerglings. Would become a bit stronger vs early mass Stalkers (if clumped) and might force the need of Immortals with the Absorb ability, or Sentinels/Scout. Or Zealots. (Just do not clump them!)
The damage values would surely need to be tweaked.
The Reaper splash upgrade can be removed.
T says it is hard to transition out of Bio vs Protoss. One way to make it easier can be to do this:
- Stimpack takes 110 or 80 seconds to research instead of 170. Requires Factory.
It will still finish at the same time in the game, but it "forces" Terran up the tech tree, and makes it easier to add mech/air units to the bio army, since the Factory is needed anyway.
I don't think it is a problem is that Terran can't really transition out of bio. I think the problem is that they try. Designing the race so that you get same results from going bio then mech vs just heading straight into mech, is going to be impossible. The changes needed for that is plentiful. Terran upgrades would need to be cheaper, factory would need a faster BT. Like forget it.
I think we should try and move towards bio complimenting their composition with stuff like Siege tanks, SVs, maybe even BCs.
We could do some adjustments to mech upgrades to make this easier through. Terran in Starbow still have 6 sets of upgrades vs 5 of other races(Including SC2 terran).
About the marauder be careful okay. Noone here wants the marauder to be Siege tanks lite. It does sound a little the Firebat-marauder Hybrid i talked about in the past, but none of my idea for that allowed to mix the Splash of the firebat with the range of the marauder. Because that is the job of siege tanks.
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On August 07 2013 20:32 Hider wrote:From http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/WraithShow nested quote +Compared to the Viking, the Wraith is more expensive, slower to build and has much lower air-to-air range, but has the advantages of cloaking, higher speed, and being able to attack ground targets. The damage output of their missiles is a trade-off - the Viking's missiles do more damage (10 +4 versus the wraith's 5 +5), but the Wraith attacks faster. The Viking also has the advantage of not requiring a tech lab, though this is circumvented if the player gets tech reactors. Basically, it probably came down to wraith not being a strong viable option early midgame vs protoss in bw, so people didn't use it in that way very often. That was probably good for the game as it would be much more boring is if it was a superior opening. Maybe part of the explanation also is that it was harder for the terran to scout early game, so he couldn't scout whether the protoss was going for reaver drop opening on 2 base or whether he was playing a more unit-heavy style, and since the starport required a tech lab, it was harder to tech to wraiths as a response to Reavers inside your base. In Sbow though, OC's are lower tech, and with reapers it is quite easy to scout the protoss base and thus react with vikings. Kabel, you previously said you thought the interaction the viking had vs protoss units were fun early midgame. Yesterday, you saw how it just shuts down reaver harass. Can you show me one example where you believe it works well/it makes the game more fun when it is used in its patrol/prevent-role?
But that is the SC2 viking that is the point of reference. Starbow viking have no attack bonus (just raw 10 damage), lesser range and moves faster. It looks more like a wraith really than the viking. But it is bound to airbourne targets only. And can get splash.
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Kabel, you previously said you thought the interaction the viking had vs protoss units were fun early midgame. I have now shown you games of how it just shuts down reaver harass for instance. Can you show me one example where you believe it works well/it makes the game more fun when it is used in its patrol/prevent-role?
Hider we have already discussed this so much. You say the Viking should be removed from the game. I say hell no.
I rather look for adjustements:
- Warp Prism faster than the Viking
- Viking less dmg vs the Warp prism
- Viking less attack range
- Warp Prism higher HP (Still has less than in SC2)
- Viking "harder" to get out on the battlefield as a response, via increased BT or cost for example.
- Slightly faster Reaver tech
And no, Wraith in BW did not require control tower.
And yes, I do think a micro situation or "dance" like this is fun to both play and observe:
>>>+ Show Spoiler +<<<
The problem IMO is that it is arguably too easy to shut down Reaver harass. But I think that can be overcomed.
If Ts only way of dealing with Reaver is via ground units or static defence, I guarantee we will see situations in the future where Reavers become very hard to deal with.
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You say the Viking should be removed from the game
I think I have been quite consistent here in saying we have two choices. Either give it a new role or remove it.
And yes, I do think a micro situation like this is fun to both play and observe:
But that wasn't the kind of situation I referred to. I was primarily talking about the prevent/patrol around bases function where it serves as a more effective static defense in the early midgame.
If Ts only way of dealing with Reaver is via ground units or static defence, I guarantee we will see situations in the future where Reavers become very hard to deal with.
I disagree. I think it will be very strong, but not in an OP way as you can micro against it (with the marker now), and then as a reponse players will research goliath range quite early.
But IMO, creating a well designed game, often times comes down to making fun stuff really good, and stuff that prevents the fun interactions from occuring, worse.
- Warp Prism faster than the Viking
- Viking less dmg vs the Warp prism
- Viking less attack range
- Warp Prism higher HP (Still has less than in SC2)
- Viking "harder" to get out on the battlefield as a response, via increased BT or cost for example.
- Slightly faster Reaver tech
But none of this will matter if;
A) If you can still scout reaver tech
B) You can still respond by getting 1-2 vikings + this is the optimal reaction
C) Reaver drop tech can't get inside base --> do a bit of damage/Force micro situations --> Retreat
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problem is that it takes ages for stalkers to kill the viking, i see no downsides on the viking, stuff that you can abuse. -1 range wont cut it. Either make it more fragile, reduce its range significantly (making it more like the valkyrie) or make it slower.
The big difference with BW is that wraiths had to get close to the warp prism and dragoon offered way better backup.
The situation you just showed will in reality be terranfavored and it's really funny if you compare the investments made (+ you pay for every shot of the reaver, i do think the reaver damage got nerfed too hard)
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Either make it more fragile
If we could make it fragile enough so combos like 2 stalkers and a Reaver would easily could snipe a viking, then this could create an interesting dynamic. However, I don't think that is close to possible without redesigning it or maybe giving immortal AA, this would at least make immortal drops or one immortal + one reaver drop combos quite strong.
reduce its range significantly (making it more like the valkyrie)
This is a bit interesting. A valkyrie is so expensive that it isn't effective to get out early midgame. This could also very well work (and I guess we could keep the transformation ability).
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I think I have been quite consistent here in saying we have two choices. Either give it a new role or remove it.
Yes, but I just do not agree with your suggested redesign. Unless you have fine-tuned your idea further. (Or have somethin else in mind.)
But that wasn't the kind of situation I referred to. I was primarily talking about the prevent/patrol around bases function where it serves as a more effective static defense in the early midgame.
But this is inevitable. If players want to commit to turtle, they will turtle. As long as they are punished for doing so in other ways, then I do not think it is that huge of a problem. What if they patrol with Goliaths instead? (You want them to be built without Armory requirement) Or just place Turrets around their border? Or patrol Scourges? Or Scouts? Or places Stalkers in every mineral line? There will always be ways of stopping the harassment, depending on how much players commit to it.
As long as it is not super easy to patrol the entire border with 1-2-3 Vikings.. If they invest in 4+ Vikings, just to patrol the main and natural, then I think Terran should be punished for it, by having less army units.
problem is that it takes ages for stalkers to kill the viking, i see no downsides on the viking, stuff that you can abuse. -1 range wont cut it. Either make it more fragile, reduce its range significantly (making it more like the valkyrie) or make it slower.
The big difference with BW is that wraiths had to get close to the warp prism and dragoon offered way better backup.
The situation you just showed will in reality be terranfavored and it's really funny if you compare the investments made (+ you pay for every shot of the reaver, i do think the reaver damage got nerfed too hard)
Yes, these are reasonable changes.
A) If you can still scout reaver tech
B) You can still respond by getting 1-2 vikings + this is the optimal reaction
C) Reaver drop tech can't get inside base --> do a bit of damage/Force micro situations --> Retreat
A) P can still hide Reaver tech
B) Then lets make this reaction harder to do.
C) If 1 Viking is enough to prevent the Reaver from doing anything, then something is ofc wrong.
If any of you have suggestion for simple changes to the Viking, I am willing to consider them. So go on, give me a suggestion.
Current stats:
Costs 125/75
Life 125
Speed 3.25
Dmg vs air 2x10
Attack cooldown: 2 seconds
Attack range 8
Build time: 42 seconds
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But this is inevitable. If players want to commit to turtle, they will turtle. As long as they are punished for doing so in other ways, then I do not think it is that huge of a problem
But they are not actually punished. If you watched my games from yesterday, I only got viking as a response to robo/robo bay tech. In the game I lost vs Solid, I didn't actually get it. As you can easily scout and react, there isn't really any punishment. Rather it just punishes the protoss for trying to make something happen. I hate that type of play as I believe we should reward players for making fun stuff.
I much rather have a state where I scout and react --> Gets out a soft counter unit.
Instead, of this; Scout and react --> Hard counter fun stuff.
Further, I don't actually believe the punishment of doing like 1 viking +1 dropship is a very big cost, even if you do it blindly. The dropship will force the opponent to stay a bit defensive so he can't really just punish you that much, for having just slightly fewer units than you normally would.
If 1 Viking is enough to prevent the Reaver from doing anything, then something is ofc wrong.
The Sbow economy rewards players for getting out a lot of core units ASAP so they can obtain a better economy. The opportunity cost of opening reaver drop is enourmous, and thus you need to do a lot of damage. So if you can't stay inside the opponents base for a while with the reavers, then you'll get behind.
If let's say the opponent has a viking and patrols the natural, and you drop inside the main, then you can maybe at most pick up 1-3 scv's. Then you have to retreat (if the terran reacts well), and the opponent has time to respond by getting another viking out.
When 2 vikings are out, they can patrol both natural and main at the same time, which means you can't go inside the terrans base without commiting.
These changes to the Viking are relatively simple and will be very effective in obtaining the desired gameplay;
- Much higher cost (like 225/125)
- Double its build time
- Make it much better in battles
If the terran gets out a viking or two to defend vs warp prism harass, he will now likely be behind as the costs are very high.
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On August 07 2013 21:07 SolidSMD wrote:
problem is that it takes ages for stalkers to kill the viking, i see no downsides on the viking, stuff that you can abuse. -1 range wont cut it. Either make it more fragile, reduce its range significantly (making it more like the valkyrie) or make it slower.
The big difference with BW is that wraiths had to get close to the warp prism and dragoon offered way better backup.
The situation you just showed will in reality be terranfavored and it's really funny if you compare the investments made (+ you pay for every shot of the reaver, i do think the reaver damage got nerfed too hard)
Ah, someone DID pay attention to my arguments about Marauders. Seems like this is the same problem all over again. A unit that is too hard to kill effectively due to good defensive stats - remove one of the defensive stats from the equation and it becomes much more dynamic.
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On August 07 2013 21:25 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 21:07 SolidSMD wrote:
problem is that it takes ages for stalkers to kill the viking, i see no downsides on the viking, stuff that you can abuse. -1 range wont cut it. Either make it more fragile, reduce its range significantly (making it more like the valkyrie) or make it slower.
The big difference with BW is that wraiths had to get close to the warp prism and dragoon offered way better backup.
The situation you just showed will in reality be terranfavored and it's really funny if you compare the investments made (+ you pay for every shot of the reaver, i do think the reaver damage got nerfed too hard) Ah, someone DID pay attention to my arguments about Marauders. Seems like this is the same problem all over again. A unit that is too hard to kill effectively due to good defensive stats - remove one of the defensive stats from the equation and it becomes much more dynamic.
Vikings are not really that durable. Stalkers however are suposed to take ages to kill everything. It is the trade-off for their extreme mobility allowing easy snipes.
That said some games have suggested that Protoss might need some stronger AA later in game. We got a replay that suggests that right now BCs might actually be OP vs protoss believe it or not. They just never die. We need more data on that through.
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Scouts?
Anyways, Stalkers have really got the wrong tradeoff imo as they need to be fragile, and not low on damage.
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On August 07 2013 22:14 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Scouts?
Anyways, Stalkers have really got the wrong tradeoff imo as they need to be fragile, and not low on damage.
Here is the Replay.
http://drop.sc/353156
As you can see, the scouts didn't really seem up to the task. But that is just one game, we need more.
If there is a general issue with Protoss AA, then it would make more sence to adjust that before we nerf the viking for not being fragile enough. But we need to know more.
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On August 07 2013 22:29 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 22:14 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Scouts?
Anyways, Stalkers have really got the wrong tradeoff imo as they need to be fragile, and not low on damage. Here is the Replay. http://drop.sc/353156As you can see, the scouts didn't really seem up to the task. But that is just one game, we need more. If there is a general issue with Protoss AA, then it would make more sence to adjust that before we nerf the viking for not being fragile enough. But we need to know more.
seemed pretty ok costwise, gossen never got out enough scouts.
But if stalker keep their bad dps then i'd really like to have immortals shooting air
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So if we stick with solution 1 (the easiest solution and the one that replicates BW TvP mech the most), then I suggest we make the following changes;
- Increase viking cost, bt and stats values significantly.
- Remove all maps except roadrunner and Breakout. Most of the maps have 3rds and 4ths that are impossible to secure safely as a mech'ing terran. Instead I suggest we introduce the Starbow Match Point remake, Purple Storm and Whirlwind (the sc2 map). Bases on those maps seems somewhat fair to secure given the current strenght of mech.
- Increase warp-in time significantly.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BxuXH6x.jpg)
