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On August 02 2013 01:55 Cryofrost wrote:One thing that I noticed is that Starbow overall requires less micro, planning, and action than BW or even SC2. The reason behind this for Brood War is obvious, only 12 units per group, 1 building per hotkey, etc etc etc. The reason SC2 requires more micro higher up (nowhere near Brood War, but higher than Starbow I think) is because of the splash. Most better players will split units up to avoid splash (examples: marine split vs banes, muta square versus thors, this crazy muta micro (I saw Jaedong do this versus Stephano's infestors too!), etc. With Starbow, splash seems a lot less potent. However, there are individual units which either greatly benefit a player when either heavily microed, or microed against. For examples: • Reaver (with shuttle micro for those who use the reavers, splitting units against scarabs for opponents, THIS IS THE EPITOME OF A GOOD UNIT THAT REWARDS MICRO, both parties are rewarded by micro). • Lurker (try to minimize damage by not walking in a line towards them, etc etc). • Vulture (don't walk with massed up units to their mines, suicide lings sometimes and etc). • I swear I had another unit in mind that didn't have splash but kind of forgot it. The reason why I was hoping for the marauder changes with either some kind of auto-cast or something was to allow more micro potential. The proposed immortal changes also seem to work towards this direction. On the other hand, I don't think the hydra change will help much (perhaps reduce max health or something but give it an upgrade kind of like the burrow-roach one so we can have burrow-hydra micro???). Even though I said that SC2 required more control and micro than Starbow overall, I still don't think it's a very good goal to aim for. The best players generally have a less consistent win/loss than the best BW players. In BW, the most talented player almost always won. In SC2, the skillcap seems to be a lot lower, so the very best (who have potential to go above the skillcap) are still on par with the almost-best. I'm hoping that Starbow will have a higher skillcap, akin to BW (did it even have a skillcap? In BW, there was no limit XD). What I'm saying basically is that in SC2, no matter how good you get, there's a point where improving doesn't really help your gameplay as much. In BW, this was either much, much higher or completely non-existent. I think rewarding skill can make Starbow a better mod. I've seen a few steps undertaken already. The new Zerg larva system basically tells Zerg "No, you cannot suicide your army and then insta-macro up to a maxed up army with only 5 hatches, and you have to watch your larva better". The warpgate changes also seem to reflect this to some extent. My main concern is that skill isn't quite as rewarded in micro. I think if we make each unit more unique, we can make Starbow a better game. On the other hand, I have one major fear. If we make certain units too reliant on certain types of micro, we may be seeing more and more builds where you only mass one unit, as micro-ing two completely different types of units may be hard for some individuals. To counteract this, we could make certain unit combos more synergistic. Make it so that the best players, who can afford to mass different types of units and still micro them effectively (See? Raising the skillcap), benefit from making stalker/immortal/reaver or something, as opposed to only making stalkers, immortals, or reavers by themselves. How we would do this though, I have no idea. I guess the medics synergize with marines and marauders, but that's a relatively simple synergy and it's one of the few examples in the game.
"One thing that I noticed is that Starbow overall requires less micro, planning, and action than BW or even SC2."
Where would you get that idea from? How would you know?
"The reason SC2 requires more micro higher up (nowhere near Brood War, but higher than Starbow I think) is because of the splash. Most better players will split units up to avoid splash (examples: marine split vs banes, muta square versus thors, this crazy muta micro (I saw Jaedong do this versus Stephano's infestors too!), etc. With Starbow, splash seems a lot less potent."
What? If anything, starbow has more splash than sc2: siege tanks with significantly more damage, mines, vikings (they have a splash upgrade), vessels (irradiate + emp), battlecruiser's yamato, banes (marines currently have no combat shields, making bane splash even stronger, to add, marinesplitting even allows for more micro in starbow due to the medic's matrix ability), lurker, fungal on viper, plague on defiler, ultra with charge ability that has splash, reavers (with better splash than collosus, + both the reaver and it's targets require micro, dropmicro vs splitting), corsairs (muta/scourge vs corsairs allow for much more micro and countermicro than muta square vs thors, i wouldn't even consider muta square as micro as it is very easily done).
And let me add that we have a small community, so everything hasn't been explored yet, compare that to sc2 where we saw the first real splitting in open season 2 (by marineking/foxer) and sc2 had a huge audience of pro's playing.
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On August 03 2013 06:11 Laertes wrote:
I have just one more issue to bring up, and once we fix this I think we can start tweaking. I'm gonna go into to detail because I don't know what I would propose, but im not sure its a good thing that zerg is the race that, by default, wins if nothing is done. Whether its the cost of their expansions or the strength of their units despite the fact that they have the ability to just build a million bases, something makes zerg really really frustrating to play at lower levels. Now, I know we shouldn't balance to the lowest common denominator, but when something is prevalent at lower levels, like the fact that zero harass always gives the win to the zerg player, that is a problem, especially when in a game like starbow where harass from both sides is supposed to be the norm. You can disregard this post if you like, I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, I'm not that great, but if you watched my replays, every game that I played I had less money than the zerg player with more workers, its just an observation, im sorry if I'm just too nub to comment on balance.
Well, I think that this is a problem that simply will always be prevalent at lower levels. Like a lowlevel zerg won't deny a T/P from taking a 6min 3rd either. The "need to harass zerg to keep him honest" is a thing that is also true the other way around. It's just that when you emulate higher level playstyles you quickly fall into the trap of wanting to do something that you are not capable of, while not doing things that your opponent would not be good enough to punish.
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Stuff for a new patch
I will get a new patch up tonight, maybe 18-19.00 CET. It will mostly contain bug fixes.
As usual, I will write what I consider to change. If you think this is utterly retarded, you all get an option to stop me!
Balance stuff:
- Vulture damage reduced from 20 vs light to 18 vs light.
- Spider mine cooldown on the Vulture increased from 7 seconds to maybe 10 or 12 seconds.
- Hydralisk attack cooldown increased from 0.83 to 1 second.
- Give the Marauder a slight damage buff.
Why?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +Vultures vs P are very hard to deal with, especially now when Warp gates are higher up in the tech tree.
Insane speed and 2-shot Probes. Mineral lines melt in seconds. (They take 3 and 4 shots to kill Drones and SCVS.) A simple damage nerf would make it more fair, while still keep the Vultures strong vs Zerglings, Zealots and so on. (Vulture with +1 weapon upgrade will however be able to 2-shot Probes, unless P has an armor upgrade)
It is very easy to "spam" Spider mines everywhere, compared to the micro it takes from the enemy player to clear the mine fields. If the cooldown is increased, it will take more time and require a bit more multitasking to set up impressive mine fields.
Pure Hydras do look very strong. As I´ve discussed earlier, a small attack speed nerf will probably serve them good, and open up the need for more support units.
I nerfed Marauder damage too much earlier.
Additional stuff:
Reaver:
+ Show Spoiler + - When the Reaver attacks a unit, a visual marker appears on the target, so the enemy player gets an opportunity to micro/split his units. (Maybe the Reaver deserves higher damage again due to this. It was nerfed a while back.)
Immortal:
>>>+ Show Spoiler + - Immortal can upgrade an ability called Absorb. When activated, all projectiles* fired at the Immortal deal 0 damage. The shield lasts 7 seconds. It has a cooldown of 60 seconds, and costs 100/100 to upgrade from the Robotic bay.
* Instant ranged attacks or "melee ranged attacks" are not affected by the shield - Siege tank, Spider mine, Marine, Goliath, landed Viking, Lurker, Reaver
This would make the slow and clumsy Immortal "stronger" vs Marauder, Vultures, Hydras, Stalkers and other core units. While at the same time, it can not A-move into Lurkers, Siege tanks or Spider mines. Marines would still be good vs them.
Ofc, this is not the most insane micro ability ever, but maybe would it force some nice combat tricks, where the opponent attacks into P army to make him waste the shields, then retreat, attack again etc. P can use the shield to "save" a wounded Immortal and so on..
Sentinel/Oracle/Arbiter
>>>+ Show Spoiler +I am quite happy with the Sentinel. The spells still neads to be tweaked, but overall it is a unit that sees play and seems to be useful in many situations. I am however not happy with the Arbiter, as I´ve said many times before. It is a deathball unit who is useful in one match-up: PvT, especially to break Tank lines. (Which Safeguard also does at the Stargate.) Here is what I consider to do:
Replace the Sentinel model with this Oracle version: http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/dark-protoss/files/148-khalai-oracle/The Sentinel model is a bit bugged, especially when built from the Stargate. If it is replaced by the Oracle model, it will still be the same unit. Just a different look. I plan to scrap the Arbiter, and instead move Recall to the Oracle. (Requires upgrade at the Fleet beacon.) Teleports maybe 4-6 units. Stasis field is reworked, renamed and moved to the High Templar. Requires an upgrade at Templar Archives. - It gains a missile that must hit for the effect to happen. (Can be dodged) - It freezes ca 3-4 units in a small area for maybe 20 seconds. (Compared to 8 targets for 45 seconds now) - Has quite long casting range (10) and costs maybe 125 energy. - Storm is better vs clumped up smaller units, "Stasis field" better vs fewer larger targets. - Maybe will we see HT drops vs Tanks, where Zealots absorb the first shots, and Stasis Field is launched at the clump up tanks - then move in with the army. Or Safeguard to protect the HTs so they get in range to stasis the enemy key units. I also consider to give an upgrade to the Corsair, researched at Fleet Beacon. Values maybe like this: - Costs 100/100 - Increased the casting range of Graviton beam from 5 to 8. - Reduces the cooldown from 45 seconds to 30 seconds. This could help to make the Corsair more useful even later in the game to catch and pick up important targets: Tanks, Reavers, Immortals, Lurkers, Defilers etc.. We would get this line-up for P: Gateway/Warp gate: Zealot, Stalker, HT, DT Robotic: Observer, Warp Prism, Immortal, Reaver Stargate: Corsair, Scout, Oracle, Carrier Oracle: Null Ward, Safeguard, Recall* and a basic anti-ground attack HT: Hallucination, Psi Storm, "Stasis Field" * *Requires upgrade. I imagine this will not be popular since the Arbiter is a classic BW unit. But the spells are not lost - just moved.
Apart from this, I do not have any other changes in mind. I am starting to feal pleased with the content in the game.
The remaining patches will aim at tweaking balance, adjusting bugs, and take a second look at the economy of the game.
(Unless we find something that is screwed and most be reworked ^^)
Ps. I´ve gotten different opinions on the hotkeys for units built at the Robotic facility.
Observer - B
Warp Prism - A
Immortal - R (Earlier was I)
Reaver - V (Earlier was R)
Reaver back to R? Immortal at what?
Ps2. If Immortal is the stronger ground core unit, maybe the Stalker should become a tiny bit weaker, as many of you have pointed out. Maybe nerf shield with 10? Change damage? Hmmmm.. It might come in the next patch instead..
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I aprove of basically everything here!
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why do you all off the sudden want to change the oracle and give it recall. It feels like a stable unit now and doesnt need to be tweaked that way I think.
+ sad arbiter remove 
Everything else seem fine changes
+ Show Spoiler +make hotkeys as impossible and hard for toss: Reaver -- V Immortal- M jking 
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@Arbiter/Oracle/Sentinel
If I manage to fix it, I will swap the Sentinel model for a golden Oracle model - This is due to some graphic bugs with the Sentinel model. For example, when the Sentinel is produced at the Stargate, it looks from the outside as if an Oracle is built in it.
If I add Recall to it, as an expensive upgrade at the Fleet Beacon, nothing is lost with the unit. It just gains some extra utility. (And a new look)
I´ve had a beef with the Arbiter for a long time. It is the most late game spell caster in the game, yet it is only truly useful in one match-up: TvP. (And I have not found a good solution how to "pimp" the Arbiter so it becomes more useful. The nature of Stasis field and Recall makes it very suited for PvT.)
If Recall is moved to the Sentinel, we promote a gameplay with even more harassment, mutlitasking, and shenanigans.
It will be easier to teleport smaller clunks of the army to different locations. The expensive Arbiter teleports one big blob from location A to B.
It also feels like the Carrier, Sentinel with Safeguard, Corsair with Graviton beam and Arbiter with Stasis field all can do the same thing - Break Siege tank lines. At the same tech path!
All I consider is to "chop up" the Arbiter and move the spells to the other casters. But maybe that does not come today.
(Depends on if I can get everything to work or not in the editor ^^ )
@Hotkeys
Solids suggestion:
Immortal - T
Reaver - R
Sounds ok?
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I have to ask through, is recall really needed? Warp prisms does a fine job already in terms of harass. And Rift works better for saving out of position units.
In case you are unaware in SC2, Recall as we know it is a thing of the past as of HOTS. Mass recall now works by taking the mothership/core and the units around it to a finished nexus. Very much like Rift.
That would make room for Stasis field on the Sentinel/Oracle.
I feel the HT would be kinda overloaded with stuff with, Storm, Uselessicinations, Stasis field and becoming Archons.
Also think it would be easier to get the Sentinel/Oracle in position for the money-stasis.
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Yeah that is a possible way.
But I still kinda feel like P can already do the stuff Stasis is suppose to do, at least from the air - Break Tank lines with Safeguard, disable ground units with Corsairs Graviton beam. (If Graviton beam gains a strong upgrade, would we see them more even later in the game, as a way to disable Tanks, Defilers, and other key ground units?)
I think smaller Recalls will probably be more useful, compared to larger, more expensive Recall. This is because Protoss has so much mobility already with Warp in and Blink Stalkers. Recall would be good synergy with mainly Immortal and Archons, and adds mobility to the slow clunky units.
If Hallucinations are too bad, they can easily be buffed:
- Make them NOT take twice the damage.
- Make the enemy player unable to see what is Hallucinations or not.
Stasis on HT would need to be modified. Probably have a missile so it can be dodged by the enemy player, with good micro.
It would give P a way to mess with lategame strong units, that Graviton Beam can´t interact with, - Ultralisks, BCs, Vessels, Carriers, Archons, Devourers and so on. It can ofc be used to "catch" units too, like Vikings, Mutalisks, Warp Prism with Reaver, and maybe be decent vs Tanks. (Instead of having all the "freeze" spells on the Stargate, we now get one of them on another tech route.)
Now of course, we can also try to just make the Arbiter more.. useful and important. But it probably requires the spells to be reworked in some way.
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Seems like an interesting patch, but I am concerned over two things;
- PvZ becomes too much about about fast teching to hive since zerg lair tech is now a lot worse.
- Oracle too weak too use recall efficiently. It will simply die to static defense too fast (?)
- Maurauder + matrix build like Alpha did vs me seems broken. I felt like I did a textbook response and was actually very lucky with my scouting + cancelling nexus at last second, but still I was basically dead all game long. Could perhaps be solved by reducing scv HP from 60 to 45.
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@PvZ
I hope this small nerf to Hydras DPS will not have severe consequenses for the match-up. If it does, then I will have to revert it and go for an other approach.
@Oracle
That might be a concern yes. Sentinel currenty has 40 HP, 60 shield. If I bring back the Oracle model, and rename it into Oracle, I might increase the cost a little bit, and increase the health a bit. (So it is closer to what people are used to, from the Oracle in SC2.)
(Maybe costs 75/125, or 75/150, instead of the current 75/100. Life 60, Shield 80 or something like that.)
@Early Bio pressure in TvP
I hope this can be solved. As you say, maybe reduce SCV life. Other approaches:
- Make Marauders start with 4 range instead of 5, just as Marines. (Makes it able for Stalkers to micro vs them)
- Move Stimpack up the tech tree. Right now it costs 100/100 and takes 160 seconds to research. Maybe it can require Factory, still cost 100/100 but take 110 seconds to complete. (Still makes it come a bit later in the game, since it is a potential game winning upgrade. This also makes it easier to transistion "out of bio", since Bio must have the Factory anyway)
- Tweak Matrix
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I hope this small nerf to Hydras DPS will not have severe consequenses for the match-up. If it does, then I will have to revert it and go for an other approach.
From my experiences, protoss players just needs to go 1 gate expo, and follow up with like 3-5 units of recall harass, into warp prism harass or sentinel harass. I feel like this is an extremely strong way to play protoss vs zerg and I think Laertes issues comes more from inefficient builds than lack of mechanics.
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I am not certain Hydras are imbalanced. But I would like to "even out" the micro required from both players, when Hydras are involved in combat. Some players have said it feels very "easy" to fight with Hydras - select all and A-move, even if it is large or small combats. It is as easy to control 10 Hydras as 50 Hydras. They have insane DPS and can melt almost every other core unit. They are also very versatile - kill both ground and air units, and have great movement speed. I´ve seen a bit of games where Z win with almost pure Hydras. (It could ofc happen in BW too. But there it was a larger effort, due to army selection limit, harder to macro etc)
If they become slightly weaker, maybe will Z need to mix in more support units - Viper, Lurker etc. Hopefully will it now be worse to just let the Hydras stand and shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot.
But this is ofc a tricky thing to balanc/adjust, since it is maybe not a problem. It is just not as good as I would like it to be. : p
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Gah!
I can not get the Arbiter/Oracle/Sentinel/Stasis field stuff to work properly in the editor. I save that for another day instead.
But I will upload the patch with the other stuff that was discussed above.
- Vulture damage reduced from 20 vs light to 18 vs light.
- Spider mine cooldown on the Vulture increased from 7 seconds to 10 seconds.
- Hydralisk attack cooldown increased from 0.83 to 1 second.
- Give the Marauder a slight damage buff.
- When the Reaver attacks a unit, a visual marker appears on the target, so the enemy player gets an opportunity to micro/split his units.
- Immortal can upgrade an ability called Absorb. When activated, all projectiles* fired at the Immortal deal 0 damage. The shield lasts 7 seconds. It has a cooldown of 60 seconds, and costs 100/100 to upgrade from the Robotic bay.
* Instant ranged attacks or "melee ranged attacks" are not affected by the shield - Siege tank, Spider mine, Marine, Goliath, landed Viking, Lurker, Reaver
This would make the slow and clumsy Immortal "stronger" vs Marauder, Vultures, Hydras, Stalkers and other core units. While at the same time, it can not A-move into Lurkers, Siege tanks or Spider mines. Marines would still be good vs them.
Ofc, this is not the most insane micro ability ever, but maybe would it force some nice combat tricks, where the opponent attacks into P army to make him waste the shields, then retreat, attack again etc. P can use the shield to "save" a wounded Immortal and so on..
And some bug fixes.
Reaver at R
Immortal at T
When December comes back, I will also try to implement this:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 01 2013 05:15 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:30 Kabel wrote:
Any why is it so boring to micro Immortals? T_T Immortals move like a fat marine in SC2. edit: Whipped this up in about ten minutes. Every immortal was kung fu figggghtttteeeeng. Man they were as fast as, well... Dragoons actually. Original immortal, totally not a dragoon. (Keep in mind, didn't bother tweaking SBOW immo, just used default SC2 immo as I was limited on time).
Oh, December.. where art though? T_T
Ps. I got a free evening tonight, so I will be online ca 1 hour from now, in case someone feels like playing!
Edit: Patch now uploaded.
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Anyone up for some games tonight?
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Guess who's back!
I will upgrade my PC tomorrow. The parts are at my post office. Might take too long for me to do to get any actually streaming done tomorrow but we'll see.
@ Changes
I am too pumped to get a finished product that I don't really care that much anymore  Just get it done so we can get some people playing. I do have a lot of stuff to catch up with it seems. Kabel, if you have some time, it would be great if you summed up all the changes over the last month or so.
PS: Is the marauder still in the game? I thought we were going to remove that.
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Unit test map "Starbow Tester 2.0" Updated!
I've been away for a while, for summer reasons.
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Next time move the Chainsaw out of the way before you cast.
Nice game through.
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so i tried to play this mod on europe, didnt find any games
So are there very small people playing it or did i do something wrong
i searched for starbow in arcade and pressed play
edit: starbow frostbite version. 1,3 , is this correct?
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EPT
