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[A] Starbow - Page 350

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
August 07 2013 14:27 GMT
#6981
On August 07 2013 23:07 SolidSMD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2013 22:29 Sumadin wrote:
On August 07 2013 22:14 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Scouts?

Anyways, Stalkers have really got the wrong tradeoff imo as they need to be fragile, and not low on damage.


Here is the Replay.

http://drop.sc/353156

As you can see, the scouts didn't really seem up to the task. But that is just one game, we need more.

If there is a general issue with Protoss AA, then it would make more sence to adjust that before we nerf the viking for not being fragile enough. But we need to know more.


seemed pretty ok costwise, gossen never got out enough scouts.
But if stalker keep their bad dps then i'd really like to have immortals shooting air


Cost doesn't matter as much for a late-game unit. It is all about the supply. Scouts being 3 supply units should beats BCs by an alright margin in a 2-to-1 ratio. It didn't seems that way. But again one game is not enough we need more to work with.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-07 14:44:36
August 07 2013 14:30 GMT
#6982
On August 07 2013 23:27 Sumadin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2013 23:07 SolidSMD wrote:
On August 07 2013 22:29 Sumadin wrote:
On August 07 2013 22:14 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Scouts?

Anyways, Stalkers have really got the wrong tradeoff imo as they need to be fragile, and not low on damage.


Here is the Replay.

http://drop.sc/353156

As you can see, the scouts didn't really seem up to the task. But that is just one game, we need more.

If there is a general issue with Protoss AA, then it would make more sence to adjust that before we nerf the viking for not being fragile enough. But we need to know more.


seemed pretty ok costwise, gossen never got out enough scouts.
But if stalker keep their bad dps then i'd really like to have immortals shooting air


Cost doesn't matter as much for a late-game unit. It is all about the supply. Scouts being 3 supply units should beats BCs by an alright margin in a 2-to-1 ratio. It didn't seems that way. But again one game is not enough we need more to work with.


watch the replay and see that he never had a 2 to 1 margin
edit: tried in unit tester, 3 bc vs 6 scouts, both using abilities and targetfiring, scouts win with 2 or 3 units every time.
Working on Starbow!
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
August 07 2013 14:57 GMT
#6983
There is no reason to nerf vultures even more. You are complaining about harass being too difficult and harass being too easy at the same time.... The way to defend vs vultures is canons / stalkers + micro.
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-08 21:28:09
August 07 2013 15:21 GMT
#6984
Patch

I upload some adjustements. These will be the last one in a while. XiA is currently helping me to fix the remaining known bugs, and we aim to have that completed maybe at sunday or at the start of next week.

I looked at the reported problems, mainly for TvP, and this is my "solution" to it. I know many of you request much more radical changes. But this is what I did at this point.

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- Tanks 45 seconds BT again instead of 50.
- Sieged siege tanks +5 dmg. (2-shots Stalkers with +1 weapon upgrade)
- Unsieged siege tanks slightly faster attack speed. (Sc2 value)
- Spider mines do not kill each other as easily. (This makes mine fields stronger.)
- Viking range decreased from 8 to 6.
- Viking dmg decreased from 2x10 to 2x8. (Worse vs single target, but still strong with the splash upgrade vs clumps)
- Viking build time increased from 45 to 50 seconds.
- Reaper bomb ability is much stronger. (60 dmg vs all units, 120 dmg vs structures. Almost twice as much as before)
- Nerve jammer costs 100 energy instead of 125.

- Warped in units take 12 seconds instead of 7 to be warped in. Makes it harder to instant respond to harass and be safe.
- Warp Prism life increased by 20.
- Warp Prism starting speed increased from 3.25 to 3.5 (Faster than Viking and Scout) Gains speed 4.25 with upgrade.
- Immortal starts with Absorb
- Immortal cost decreased from 150/100 to 150/75.
- Sentinel speed increased to 3.25 from 3.

- Overseers have energy again, which makes Phase Missile at the Scout able to snipe them.



I think this was it.

I will swap some maps in the map pool later on. I generally do not edit the maps myself. Instead I let that be done by the map makers. But I can not contact Mereel atm. (Vacation?) So I did a small change on Frostbite - removed some destructible rocks to open up two extra attack paths.

There is no reason to nerf vultures even more. You are complaining about harass being too difficult and harass being too easy at the same time.... The way to defend vs vultures is canons / stalkers + micro.


I have no plans to nerf this unit further, unless it is absolutely necessary.
Creator of Starbow
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-07 15:31:59
August 07 2013 15:28 GMT
#6985
On August 07 2013 23:57 Xiphias wrote:
There is no reason to nerf vultures even more. You are complaining about harass being too difficult and harass being too easy at the same time.... The way to defend vs vultures is canons / stalkers + micro.


the problem is earlygame, it's barely an investment for the terran and you can't really catch em with stalkers, so what ends up happening is you either mass stalkers early or you get a forge and make 2 cannons in each mineral line at least because the risk is too big, they kill workers ridiculously fast. Seems like a way too big investment to hold of something that is core and barely costs anything (you get vultures anyway as a meching terran, it's not like you have to invest in extra tech to do this harassment). As a side effect this also makes protoss unable to do anything aggressive (due to the backstab potential) until he has enough cannons up or he has enough stalkers everywhere, roughly 10 minute mark. Protoss doesn't have a good unit that counters them decently, stalker is only a soft-counter, and a bad one, as they just work because the vultures can't kill the stalkers quick enough and stalkers are ranged, this is the only reason they are decent enough early game to hold them off.
Working on Starbow!
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
August 07 2013 19:18 GMT
#6986
Going to stream!

http://www.twitch.tv/SC2_Starbow
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-07 20:51:44
August 07 2013 20:51 GMT
#6987
Nice game from todays stream: (it is prossessing now but should eb up in 30 min or so)

aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
MaxViktory
Profile Joined June 2012
Sweden136 Posts
August 07 2013 21:11 GMT
#6988
On August 08 2013 00:28 SolidSMD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2013 23:57 Xiphias wrote:
There is no reason to nerf vultures even more. You are complaining about harass being too difficult and harass being too easy at the same time.... The way to defend vs vultures is canons / stalkers + micro.


the problem is earlygame, it's barely an investment for the terran and you can't really catch em with stalkers, so what ends up happening is you either mass stalkers early or you get a forge and make 2 cannons in each mineral line at least because the risk is too big, they kill workers ridiculously fast. Seems like a way too big investment to hold of something that is core and barely costs anything (you get vultures anyway as a meching terran, it's not like you have to invest in extra tech to do this harassment). As a side effect this also makes protoss unable to do anything aggressive (due to the backstab potential) until he has enough cannons up or he has enough stalkers everywhere, roughly 10 minute mark. Protoss doesn't have a good unit that counters them decently, stalker is only a soft-counter, and a bad one, as they just work because the vultures can't kill the stalkers quick enough and stalkers are ranged, this is the only reason they are decent enough early game to hold them off.


Can't you just use wall off with a cannon or something behind?
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
August 07 2013 22:12 GMT
#6989
On August 08 2013 05:51 Xiphias wrote:
Nice game from todays stream: (it is prossessing now but should eb up in 30 min or so)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gn2SLbe0CQ


ofc, the one game i lose gets casted
Working on Starbow!
decemberscalm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1353 Posts
August 08 2013 05:05 GMT
#6990
On August 08 2013 07:12 SolidSMD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 08 2013 05:51 Xiphias wrote:
Nice game from todays stream: (it is prossessing now but should eb up in 30 min or so)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gn2SLbe0CQ


ofc, the one game i lose gets casted

To be fair, it was a pretty cool comeback. Could have been averted if you had an observer on top of your army during your death push ^^.




@Kabel
The immortal firing animation isn't synced to when the projectile actually shoots. You should know how to tweak this after seeing the tutorial I made for you?
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
August 08 2013 07:53 GMT
#6991
Yeah starting from the deathpush i totally messed up . Shouldn't have attacked through the bridge, should have watched my army (was distracted some place i think), lost most of my zealots that way as they rushed in to the zerg base without backup. Needed a faster templar archives for warpgates and needed my corsairs on a hotkey to fight off drops but i didn't find them >.<. Went downhill from there.
Working on Starbow!
JohnnyZerg
Profile Joined July 2012
Italy378 Posts
August 08 2013 11:49 GMT
#6992
Unit test map "Starbow Tester 2.0" Updated!
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-08 14:26:39
August 08 2013 12:46 GMT
#6993
@Current state of Starbow

Just gonna do some writing on the current state of the game, mostly to clean my head. Read it if you wish.






Overview of the intended gameplay:

What are the larger gameplay goals of Starbow?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- Make positional play and area control matter
- Make harassment and smaller skirmishes more important and stronger, compared to moving it all in a deathball
- Make a strong economy require more expansions
<<<

And the minor ones?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- Make sure each race feel diverse and offer many playstyles, while at the same time stay true to the "Starcraft-feeling"
- Make sure there is potential for "action" , aka races shall have tools to be aggressive, throughout the game.
- Make sure there are much room for interactions in combat - dancing, splitting, focus fire, flanking etc
<<<

And the most important goal of everything?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- Make sure the game is fun to both play, explore and observe.
<<<

Ok, and how is this shit suppose to be reached?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
- Make positional play and area control matter

- High ground defence system that makes units on low ground have 50% miss chance when fighting uphill.
- Stronger area control units for the races: Siege tanks, Spider mines, Lurker, better Creep, Reaver, Null Ward and Chrono boosted Cannons etc.

- Make harassment and smaller skirmishes more important and stronger, compared to moving it all in a deathball

- Stronger splash effects "forces" units to be splitted
- The pathing system reduces damage over area, since units are less clumped up. Big blobs are not as efficient.
- Shorter range on the core ranged units makes it harder for blobs to be efficient.
- Since players "need" more bases, there are more places to harass and attack (and thus outmultitask the opponent)
- Stronger harassment units who are efficient even in small numbers (Reaver, Stalker, Vulture, Banshee, Lurker etc)
- Cheaper drop-units (Warp Prism 150 minerals, Dropship 100/50)

- Make a strong economy require more expansions

- Each expansion supports fewer workers, and thus gives less income. (Are surely more optimal ways)

- Make sure each race feel diverse and offer many playstyles, while at the same time stay true to the "Starcraft-feeling"

- This is very subjective where you all have different opinions.

- Make sure there is potential for "action" , aka races shall have tools to be aggressive, throughout the game.

- Some early methods have been added: Rift at Nexus requires no upgrade, Gateway units are a bit stronger and can move out vs Zerg early (and vice versa, depending on how goes for aggression), Reapers + cheap Vultures, Bio stronger early and can (hopefully) take map control vs T and P and so on..
- But this is also subjective, depending on what one think "action" means.

- Make sure there are much room for interactions in combat - dancing, splitting, focus fire, flanking etc

- The pathing system makes units more separated, which reduces DPS over area. Units melt slower.
- Longer cooldown on attacks on many units, to make each shot, kiting etc more important.
- Slightly slower game speed (5% )

- Make sure the game is fun to both play, explore and observe.

Trolololol
<<<



Ok, these are the roots of this project. Lets now look at a basic overview of the races.
(For those of you who only read this thread and never visit us in game.)
I aim to update the opening post later on.




Terran:

+ Show Spoiler +
Orbital - Scan, Calldown SCV, Calldown Supply
Planetary Fortress - The attack requires an activation. Lasts 30 seconds. Cooldown 120 seconds.

Barrack - Marine, Marauder, Medic starts with Matrix, Reaper, Ghost with Shock spell (Slows and disables attack & abilites at target unit for 10 seconds.)
Tech lab upgrades: Stimpack, Combined Range upgrade for Marine + Marauder, Bomb ability for Reaper, +25 starting energy for Medics


Factory
: Vulture, Tank, Goliath
Tech lab upgrades: Spider mines, Vulture movement speed, Siege tech, Goliath +2 attack range

Starport: Viking, Dropship, Banshee, Vessel, Battlecruiser
Tech lab upgrades: Viking splash upgrade, Banshee cloak, Irradiate and EMP for Vessel


Zerg:

+ Show Spoiler +
Hatchery tech: Zergling, Baneling, Hydra, Queen with Creep tumor, Inject that increases larva spawn rate, and Nurturing swarm which either heals a unit/structure, or can be used to speed up a morphing structure.

Lair tech: Lurker, Mutalisk, Scourge, Viper with Ensnare who slows speed, Breed who spawns units, Abduct and Consume from SC2.

Hive tech: Ultralisk, Defiler with Dark Swarm, Plague & Consume. Guardian and Devourer - drains energy on each attack, and can use the Contaminate ability which covers the ground in shit.


Protoss

+ Show Spoiler +
Gateway/Warp gate: Zealot, Stalker, DT, HT with Hallucination from BW, Storm and Archon. (DT also Archon)
Upgrades: Stalker +2 range at Cybernetics core, Blink at Twilight council, Zealot permanent speed upgrade at Twilight counceil. (Also gains a small speed ability)

Robotic facility: Observer, Warp Prism, Immortal with the Absorb ability who prevents missiles from harming the Immortal once activated (lasts 7 seconds), Reaver

Upgrades: Warp Prism speed, Observer speed, Reaver bonus damage

Stargate: Corsair with Graviton beam, Scout with Phase missile, Sentiel with Null ward and Safeguard, Carrier, Arbiter with Stasis Field, Cloak aura and Recall.

Abilities at Stargate:
- Phase missile destroys energy at target unit and that energy is converted into AoE damage.
- Null ward is a cloaked flying thing created at a location. Lasts 150 seconds. Once an enemy unit comes near it will attack in a straight line, dealing dmg and slowing the units. Then the Null ward is destroyed.
- Safeguard is an area spell that makes units at the targeted area take only 10 dmg from splash attacks for 20 seconds.
- Stasis field as in BW.

Upgrades at Fleet beacon: All Stargate units gain slightly more speed. All Stargate units gain +1 attack range.

Warp gate units now take 12 seconds to be warped in and requires Templar archives.
(God this thing has caused so much headaches for me :p)


I use mostly BW solutions, but as you see, some SC2 stuff and some new stuff too. The reason I do not stick with entirely BW solutions is because BW is already made. And everything from BW does not fit into the SC2 engine IMO.
I intend to use as simple and easy solutions as possible to "design" or gameplay problems.
And this leads to a commonly asked question I get:

And why the f*** are the Immortal and Marauder in the game??


Stalker/Dragoon/Immortal

>>>+ Show Spoiler +
I would not mind to have only one type of ranged ground unit for Protoss. The Stalker. Or the Dragoon. Simple and clean.

The "problems" are: Warp in, Blink and unlimmited selection.

- A strong unit like the Dragoon can not be warped in at target location or have Blink. I´ve had it in the game for a long time. It was horrible. Too much mobility and too much firepower. Maybe could Warp in work, if it is really really nerfed...

- If the Dragoon had neither Blink or Warp in, it was a pain for Protoss to defend vs Mutalisks. Large clumpsy ranged ground unit vs unlimited selection of Mutalisks = unlimited firepower concentrated into one single blob. As easy to control 1 Mutalisk as 40 Mutalisks. Fly between bases, instant shot everything, especially large clumsy Dragoons who can not be as tightly packed. This either required a huge rebalance in stats, or some other solution I never found.

- Apart from this, the Dragoon did not feel as good in the SC2 enginge as in BW. I don´t know why. (As Zaphod say, maybe due to the clumsiness in the BW enginge, and the satisfaction of overcoming that.)

- The Stalker was earlier stronger and had Blink + Warp in. And this unit has been the hardest one to balance - often this was the only unit necessary for Protoss, since it was strong, versatile, mobile like crazy.
But Blink + Warp in are IMO fun mechanics, if balanced properly, and I would like to keep them in the game. (It is ofc hard)

Thats why I went for the current solution:
- Stalkers are now very fragile (60 shield, 80 HP), has Blink, can be Warped in, and has higher DPS now than in SC2, so it is decent at sniping/target fire stuff. (14 dmg vs non-amored units, 12 vs armored) Still weak to fight alone in combat, still quite clumped up and can be punished heavily by AoE. (2-shoted by Tanks with +1 attack, shredded by Lurkers, loses vs Marauders, unless good micro)

Maybe would this be enough. No need for Immortal, which instead opens up more need for Protoss tech units: Sentinel with Safeguard, Warp Prism with Reaver, Storm and so on to support the Protoss ground army.

By having the Immortal in the game, I wanted to open space for more diversity in the Protoss race - P can choose to go for heavy firepower with a "Dragoonified" unit, at the cost of clumpiness and immobility. More mid game options. Must not tech for late game units. (But can choose to do so.)

To seperate it from the Archon and Stalker, and to make it require a little bit more micro, I changed its attack to be high single target dmg with slow cooldown, and I added Absorb. This makes it stronger vs Hydras, Marauders, and other projectile based attacks, whom Stalkers are weak against. Archons on the other hand are much better vs melee units and tightly clumped up armies. Atm, Immortals are still quite fragile vs Spider mines + Tanks, but decent vs Lurkers, just as Dragoons were.

- Stalkers for anti-air, quick reinforcement, mobility.
- Immortal for firepower and toughness. (Costs only 25/25 more than Stalkers)

<<<

Marauder
>>>+ Show Spoiler +

Why not just Marines + Medics?

We had it for a long time in Starbow. It was ok. We copied the BW-meta game. Always Mech in TvP and TvT.
I just want to broaden the match-ups a little bit, make room for more potential use of bio units. (Which I have also tried with Ghost + Reaper + Medic via Matrix)

In terms of direct unit interactions, Banelings vs mass Marines + Medics are quite lame and predictable. When Firebats or Marauders are in the mix, the combats IMO tends to get a bit funnier, where the Banelings wanted to connect with the "right" units, while T want to block the Banelings with Firebat or Marauder. (Plus Matrixes)

Marauders with their slow attack speed but high burst damage makes them good at sniping Siege tanks and Lurkers who are just getting in position - run in, shoot a volley, run away.

Marauders can punish a Protoss player who goes heavy Blink Stalkers, and "force" him to mix in other units. (Which Mech might have a problem to do)

Atm, Marauders can not A-move into Tanks, Lurkers, Reavers and so on
<<<


Just wanted to do some writing to clear my head and remind myself. Might as well post it here.
Creator of Starbow
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark697 Posts
August 08 2013 13:44 GMT
#6994
As of late your posts have really had a sense of purpose and direction Kabel. It seems like most of the big issues have been resolved, or at least put on long term observation.
The only things that really remains is the issues of a few bugs still in the game, and the question of the Marauder.
The Marauder is a problem because its still so... unfocused. It tries to be 5 different things at the same time, and swiss army knife units always ends up being either boring or overpowered. Its time to decide what its supposed to do for terran bio play.

Is it a more useful firebat? with short range heavy attacks and a beefy 140ish hp. Then it can help against beanelings, zerglings, zealots and vultures. It could possibly get a splash damage upgrade or a modified concussive shell.

Is it a hit and run specialist? with more speed a bit less HP and the 5-6 range. Good for quick snipes of tanks, lurkers, immortals ect. but horrible in prolonged fights.

Is it a back line sniper? with 7 range and a lot less HP. Great for giving heavy fire support to marines and kiting mid ranged units with their decent speed.

Is it a combination of two of these? It can't be all three as it is atm, since this nessesitates that its decent at all these things, but never good enough to actually make you want them.


The diffence in the terran and protoss situations are that protoss needed a generalist (Immortal) to round out the army, while terran already has this (Marines and to some degree Tanks). Marauders should be a more specialised unit.
Go try StarBow on the Arcade. TL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661
Sumadin
Profile Joined August 2011
Denmark588 Posts
August 08 2013 16:44 GMT
#6995
I think the reason we try to make the marauder so many things is because the other unit fails to take their role in those things.

The ghost is kinda excused in that it comes late into the tech tree, but it still isn't there. Don't get me wrong i actually like shock alot, but right now it just sucks so much. You shoot and the missile reaches the unit like next week or so. You move in for the oppotonity but then you realise the effect lasts like a second, so the siege tank is already back. The concept for a back line sniper is there, just needs some adjustments on the numbers.

And then there is the reaper... i talked about this in the past, but it just doesn't have the raw stats to be a viable 2-supply unit. We will see if anything changes with the new improved blast charges.
The basic key to beating a priest is playing a deck that is terrible.
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
August 08 2013 18:17 GMT
#6996
MOAR STREAMING

www.twitch.tv/SC2_Starbow
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
SolidSMD
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium408 Posts
August 08 2013 18:18 GMT
#6997
On August 09 2013 01:44 Sumadin wrote:
I think the reason we try to make the marauder so many things is because the other unit fails to take their role in those things.

The ghost is kinda excused in that it comes late into the tech tree, but it still isn't there. Don't get me wrong i actually like shock alot, but right now it just sucks so much. You shoot and the missile reaches the unit like next week or so. You move in for the oppotonity but then you realise the effect lasts like a second, so the siege tank is already back. The concept for a back line sniper is there, just needs some adjustments on the numbers.

And then there is the reaper... i talked about this in the past, but it just doesn't have the raw stats to be a viable 2-supply unit. We will see if anything changes with the new improved blast charges.


reaper is a raider, not a fighter, you are not supposed to mass them, so supply does not matter much.
The ghost is unexplored, i would kinda see an early ghost or 2 work in certain timings if the toss decides to defend with immortals, rendering them useless for 10 seconds. On paper the ghost is cheap and very useful, just needs exploring imo.
Working on Starbow!
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
August 08 2013 18:20 GMT
#6998
On August 09 2013 03:18 SolidSMD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2013 01:44 Sumadin wrote:
I think the reason we try to make the marauder so many things is because the other unit fails to take their role in those things.

The ghost is kinda excused in that it comes late into the tech tree, but it still isn't there. Don't get me wrong i actually like shock alot, but right now it just sucks so much. You shoot and the missile reaches the unit like next week or so. You move in for the oppotonity but then you realise the effect lasts like a second, so the siege tank is already back. The concept for a back line sniper is there, just needs some adjustments on the numbers.

And then there is the reaper... i talked about this in the past, but it just doesn't have the raw stats to be a viable 2-supply unit. We will see if anything changes with the new improved blast charges.


reaper is a raider, not a fighter, you are not supposed to mass them, so supply does not matter much.
The ghost is unexplored, i would kinda see an early ghost or 2 work in certain timings if the toss decides to defend with immortals, rendering them useless for 10 seconds. On paper the ghost is cheap and very useful, just needs exploring imo.


Agree here. I think both units are unexplored, and it is too early to say anything about them.
Zaphod Beeblebrox
Profile Joined December 2010
Denmark697 Posts
August 08 2013 20:22 GMT
#6999
That Gossen vs Hider ZvZ

"How many Hydras could Hider hide if Hider would hide Hydras?"
Go try StarBow on the Arcade. TL thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=440661
Kabel
Profile Joined September 2009
Sweden1746 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-09 01:28:56
August 08 2013 22:18 GMT
#7000
@Movement and pathing system

Dirtybag wanted me to write about this one, and wonder what the reasons for it are. (And it is hard to explain in the chat)

The pathing system makes units not clump up as much as they normally do in SC2. Instead of armies moving in a blob, they move in a line,

Why is this good?

1.
+ Show Spoiler +
- It is now stronger to intercept enemy armies moving on the map since they do NOT move in an optimal formation.
(In SC2 they move in a blob, here in a fragile line)

[image loading]

2.
+ Show Spoiler +

- More room for army management, where players must manually set up good flanks and surround via unit control.
(Units do not auto-surround as easily.)

[image loading]


3.
+ Show Spoiler +
- Makes units less tightly packed, which makes dmg less concentrated in an area. This spreads out the damage output, which makes combat last longer.

[image loading]


And what are the bad aspects?

It is annoying. Not for me. I am so used to it. :p
But I often hear a lot of comments on this system. Mostly negative. Sometimes positive.

- Can this system be improved or fine-tuned?
- Can those advantages be reached without this pathing system?


Comments?

Next I will make a post about TvP, since that is IMO our last match-up that must be "fixed"

Edit: "But hey Gossen, if the movement system is so good, how can this still happen?"
(No one actually said that, I just pretend someone did ^^ )
>>>+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

This is from a game today. Everything clumped up in one deathball. How is that possible?

Well, this system does not make players unable to pack everything together. It is still possible to clump it up if players order their units to do so. Why?
Because of unlimited selection. No matter what type of unit, I can select and command my entire army and pack them into one concentrated ball of death. It is much much harder to make 2-3-4-5 control groups of units walk together in a blob like this. But this is an engine problem I can not do anything about. (If I could, I would likely add a selection limit of 16 or 24)

In fact, I can never prevent players from moving their whole army in a blob. I can only make players want to NOT move their army in a deathball, for example from the threat of AoE, or because it is better to split, harass, flank etc. At this point in the game, I packde everything together since I knew Xiphias had no AoE. And the closer units are, the better is the damage output vs everything... But yeah, it looks kinda dumb.

Same scenario with mech: [image loading]
<<<


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