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Well i doupt the bridges would work well with this Layout anyway. I think some Scrap station clone would be more suited but it is one of those things that ordinary melee maps won't use so we totally could. Now as for how to do it, all of ít should be trigger based, so relativly simple to replicate once you got a map it is done in(Like the SC2 HOTS campaigns, which are open to everyone). So if we get around to a map that could use them, then i am fairly sure i could figure it out and tell you what to do.
If you want some better comparison btw then look at Atlantis Spaceship. A 2 player map which to my knowledge had the longest accepted rush distance... then again it didn't last that long in professional leagues.
Oh yea... the center. How about a lowground center? This map only utilizes 2 heights so far so should be possible. Other maps have tried that and sucked, but it was often for different reasons(Slag pits had a close rush distance rivaling Steppes of war). I think there might be something to try there.
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New patch is up:
Patch notes:
+ Show Spoiler +Drop hotkeys:
Same for all races now (C and V)
Photon cannon:
Range changed from 7 to 6. Chronoboost now brings it back to 7 range.
Infestor:
Has been given "infested ground" A passive ability which makes enemy units on top of infestors take 5 dmg / sec. A broodling will spawn if the unit dies.
Battlecruisers:
Changed base dmg vs ground and air from 15 to 22. Also made the missle projectile a bit more beefyer.
Warp prism:
Decrease the radius from 3.75 to 2.0. It can still warp in close to 12 zealots if you are carefull in placement.
Tempest:
Removed.
Nullward:
Made the model into a “unit” (so it can block a building like a spider-mine.)
Mutalisk:
Given Dark Swarm. (jk....)
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I think I'm done with Starbow until Kabel comes back as lead designer. His posts over the last couple pages have reminded me of the elegance of the original vision and it just seems to be going in the wrong direction lately. Things are being changed too quickly and too haphazardly right now for a stable game, with not enough reason given - I still don't know why we even considered the Defiler change in the first place, let alone allowed it to go through. You guys come up with some awesome ideas for sure, but also some that just do not make sense, and without Kabel's understanding of elegant design there isn't really any quality control right now separating the good from the bad.
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With 20+ damage, the attack of the battlecruiser should actually scale +2 from attack upgrades if we wanted to follow normal Upgrade conventions (+10% min. 1). Which considering how bad the reasoning for getting the upgrades right now is, might be a good change aswell. Have to be careful it doesn't get too strong through.
Smilezerg, i don't think you are being entirely fair. Most of the changes, in here can be tracked back to the various discussions that have occured in the games aswell in this thread.
Battlecruisers sucked, i have only mentioned it a thousand times. The photon cannon change is to make them less efficiant as static drop defence, forcing more interaction. Protoss had too much Air.
Asside from the infestor change that really leaves bug fixes. Now i don't really agree with the infestor ability, mainly because i think it will suck, but lets try it for now.
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Also, after I just took a look at some of the match histories (on EU server at least), most of the people contributing most of the stuff here have played barely any Starbow games but mostly stick to theory crafting in this thread. That used to be quite different in that we kinda almost used to neglect this thread and just talk about pretty much all the stuff in-game or in the Starbow chat channel. The balance between the amount of posts in this thread and games in the match histories has shifted quite a lot and I'm not sure if it's for the better.
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Well Holiday season is coming up. With any luck we might be able to play it out a little more.
Ill gladly admit it, my feedback is mostly based on observations, I am a gold League player, i wouldn't dare use my own experience for discussing balance.
That said it is not just observations, but also general knowledge of game mechanics and sometimes a bit of testing in the starbow tester that contributes to my feedback. Example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=279#5561
It took me less than an hour in the tester to discover the flaws in the design of the viking at the time. This is because i knew from previous research how SC2 attacks reacts when armor tries to bring it to 0 damage and how that affects game mechanics.
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That's why we changed the viking since then. What is your point?
Also, changing upgardes to be +2 for BC's is a logical follow up that we did not think of. I'll note it down.
I don't mind critisism if something feels / is wrong, but could you please be more spesific. It is hard to defend a change if I don't know which one is undesired. These most recent changes have Kable's apporval as well....
Let med explain each of them:
- Photon Canon. We've been making more and more chokey maps for a while until we got the unit pathing. This ended up in bases being too easy to defend (some felt....) and with lessened range for canons they will be SLIGHTLY less effective (this is not a big change imo.) Bringing back their original range with chronoboost will also make the canons more reliant on chornoboost which again gives the protoss player a reaal option between army (chorno gateways), eco (chorno nexus), tech (chorno forge/other) and defence (crhono canon). This was a mechanic already in the game, we just primed it a bit more. Now you can also "catch" dropships that are within range if you chrono carefully.
Infestor:
He can burrow. He can move fast while burrowed. He has almost no reason to do so..... So we gave him a new reason for it. Gave zerg a new tool. We wanted to change zerg-casters more but it was not the right time. You'll see why soon enough.
Battlecruisers:
They needed to be better, It seemed everyone agreed on that. There were many ideas and many very new abilities. He still might get some of those, but for starters, we just wanted to give it decend dps for it's huge cost.
Warp Prism.
This has been more and more "abused" (imo) lately and warping in all around the map is much more effective than "recall" which is a VERY late-game ability. It also negates terrain completly, something which we try to avoid in Starbow as much as possible (that's why blink was nerfed several times, and the reaper was contreversion in Starbow). Now the protoss player must be more carefull or he cannot warp in a huge cycle every time. We don't mind harass, but we do mind "Oh, I just created half my army in your base".
Tempest.
This was a given I hope. It was never used and overlapped with carrier / scout.
Nullward:
Just gave it one more reason to get the nullifier, and it really makes sense. No big change.
Me and Dec has made some hasted decition before, but I feel this patch is not one of those. It is also not the patch to end all patches, but some changes we wante for now. There will be more changes in the near future, and the zerg spellcaster lineup will be "better" (whatever that means....)
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Xilphias it was a responce to Azelja's claim that most feedback in here is only based on theorycrafting and not actual experience in games. You are right, you did change it afterwards(and also buffed the armor of the Guardian). But it was more a defence of how theorycrafting and testing can still be useful against actual gameplay experience.
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Oh, ok. Sorry for misunderstanding 
Also, Dec found a new use for the scout. It seems to be good for protoss vs bio openings. Marines actaully have a hard time penetrating their armor. It is interesting because you can open stargate, if mech then go corsir (to pick up tanks) if bio then go scout (to contain). Nice new strat for now.
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On June 01 2013 18:44 Xiphias wrote:Oh, ok. Sorry for misunderstanding Also, Dec found a new use for the scout. It seems to be good for protoss vs bio openings. Marines actaully have a hard time penetrating their armor. It is interesting because you can open stargate, if mech then go corsir (to pick up tanks) if bio then go scout (to contain). Nice new strat for now.
I heard Johnny used them like that too?
It should be pretty easy to counter. If you spot stargates you can put down two missile turrets and be pretty safe.
But actually surprising.
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On June 01 2013 17:17 Sumadin wrote:
Xilphias it was a responce to Azelja's claim that most feedback in here is only based on theorycrafting and not actual experience in games. You are right, you did change it afterwards(and also buffed the armor of the Guardian). But it was more a defence of how theorycrafting and testing can still be useful against actual gameplay experience.
Please don't misunderstand me, I like theorycrafting, it's awesome! As a supplementary aid, though, but maybe that's just my opinion. It also wasn't supposed to come across as an attack, so if it did, I'm sorry.
On June 01 2013 19:20 decemberscalm wrote:
I heard Johnny used them like that too?
It should be pretty easy to counter. If you spot stargates you can put down two missile turrets and be pretty safe.
But actually surprising.
If you're referring to what I said on b.net, then Johnny used it more against cc first straight into mech after the initial 3-4 marines for a bunker ^^
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Unit test "Starbow Tester" Updated!
On June 01 2013 19:20 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 18:44 Xiphias wrote:Oh, ok. Sorry for misunderstanding Also, Dec found a new use for the scout. It seems to be good for protoss vs bio openings. Marines actaully have a hard time penetrating their armor. It is interesting because you can open stargate, if mech then go corsir (to pick up tanks) if bio then go scout (to contain). Nice new strat for now. I heard Johnny used them like that too? It should be pretty easy to counter. If you spot stargates you can put down two missile turrets and be pretty safe. But actually surprising.
This is the game:
http://drop.sc/339514
Suggestion: add a buttom for enable/disable scout ground weapon.
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On June 01 2013 20:02 JohnnyZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 19:20 decemberscalm wrote:On June 01 2013 18:44 Xiphias wrote:Oh, ok. Sorry for misunderstanding Also, Dec found a new use for the scout. It seems to be good for protoss vs bio openings. Marines actaully have a hard time penetrating their armor. It is interesting because you can open stargate, if mech then go corsir (to pick up tanks) if bio then go scout (to contain). Nice new strat for now. I heard Johnny used them like that too? It should be pretty easy to counter. If you spot stargates you can put down two missile turrets and be pretty safe. But actually surprising. This is the game: http://drop.sc/339514Suggestion: add a buttom for enable/disable scout ground weapon.
Triple Armory like a BOSS! What is going on with the Terran tank on the main ramp at 12:30?
Seems too early to react to this. If mass Corsair+ Scout becomes a problem then we could just make the Corsairs light units, to make them fear Vikings.
Also there are options to adjust the marines stats to make early scout less deadly. Maybe move the range upgrade to engineering bay so you can get it without a useless(vs protoss) techlab. Needs more info.
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They needed to be better, It seemed everyone agreed on that. There were many ideas and many very new abilities. He still might get some of those, but for starters, we just wanted to give it decend dps for it's huge cost.
I actually think its biggest problem is that its just boring to use. I think most people just want to tech to tier 3 cuz its supposed to be awesome. But it really isn't and I dont think its just a balance problem.
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On June 01 2013 21:58 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +They needed to be better, It seemed everyone agreed on that. There were many ideas and many very new abilities. He still might get some of those, but for starters, we just wanted to give it decend dps for it's huge cost.
I actually think its biggest problem is that its just boring to use. I think most people just want to tech to tier 3 cuz its supposed to be awesome. But it really isn't and I dont think its just a balance problem.
Agreed. Carriers are actually fun to use.
At least with a dps boost a tech switch is slightly more viable though.
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On June 01 2013 07:51 SmileZerg wrote:
I think I'm done with Starbow until Kabel comes back as lead designer. His posts over the last couple pages have reminded me of the elegance of the original vision and it just seems to be going in the wrong direction lately. Things are being changed too quickly and too haphazardly right now for a stable game, with not enough reason given - I still don't know why we even considered the Defiler change in the first place, let alone allowed it to go through. You guys come up with some awesome ideas for sure, but also some that just do not make sense, and without Kabel's understanding of elegant design there isn't really any quality control right now separating the good from the bad.
you and me both dude.
Doesnt feel like starbow or sc2 anymore.
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On June 02 2013 02:51 Izerman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 07:51 SmileZerg wrote:
I think I'm done with Starbow until Kabel comes back as lead designer. His posts over the last couple pages have reminded me of the elegance of the original vision and it just seems to be going in the wrong direction lately. Things are being changed too quickly and too haphazardly right now for a stable game, with not enough reason given - I still don't know why we even considered the Defiler change in the first place, let alone allowed it to go through. You guys come up with some awesome ideas for sure, but also some that just do not make sense, and without Kabel's understanding of elegant design there isn't really any quality control right now separating the good from the bad. you and me both dude. Doesnt feel like starbow or sc2 anymore.
not to be mean but what exactly is different. Definer has been in starbow for the majority of its life. Vikings and nullifier års both rarely used niche Units and doesn't change the gameplay. Imo you are simply not assessing xiphs and dec's work objectively, but rather you are suffering from the "there was much more snow when i was a child"mentality. please for once try to put up a logical argument to support your claims which currently have no other purpose than to insult other people
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On June 02 2013 02:51 Izerman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 07:51 SmileZerg wrote:
I think I'm done with Starbow until Kabel comes back as lead designer. His posts over the last couple pages have reminded me of the elegance of the original vision and it just seems to be going in the wrong direction lately. Things are being changed too quickly and too haphazardly right now for a stable game, with not enough reason given - I still don't know why we even considered the Defiler change in the first place, let alone allowed it to go through. You guys come up with some awesome ideas for sure, but also some that just do not make sense, and without Kabel's understanding of elegant design there isn't really any quality control right now separating the good from the bad. you and me both dude. Doesnt feel like starbow or sc2 anymore.
Congratulations, this was already going to be the last patch since Kabel is finally able to start working on the mod last time I've talked to Xiphias.
Lets look at major changes.
Bug fixes. Lots of bug fixes. More bug fixes. Even more bug fixes.
Gas was reduced by 1, economy feels like it is exactly where it wants to be.
Viking was a role that was already pretty minimal, and served as a psuedo Valkeryie (but just not effective to actually serve in it). Terran needed an answer to mass muta switches because it lacked thus. So we tried out something new than just a valkyerie. Game play wise it works pretty well. It is in a niche role, but a hole that needed to be filled.
Deflier change was literally just clipping its wings to allow for more counterplay and better dark swarm syngergy. Game play reasons. Does Z really need a tier 3 flying spellcaster? Dark Swarm plays terribly on a flying unit. It turns a really interesting spell into a really lame spell. If you have air based anti air that counters it quite easily such as sc2 vikings then you just have silly corruptor vs collosus sort of battles.
Deflier is tricky and I am sure everyone has wildly different opinionns on how the Zerg lineup should be.
You could have infestor as a sneaky harasser which would synergize well with plague (better late game though), and burrowed movement. It works really well in tier 2 due to the lack of detection everywhere.
The queen actually synergized well in the air because it could persue corsairs to ensnare them to support muta and scourge. There was a reason for it to be flying. It was mostly just support and scouting, not a full fledged battle caster. Why is there a reason for our current deflier/viper to fly? Why was it using the viper model? Does it enhance the game play in any way shape or form except so that Z has the arbitrary requirements of having both a ground caster and an air caster? Deflier/Viper/Swarm Guardian is a battle caster. If it is flying I would rather see it cast blinding cloud instead as that makes more sense on a flying caster. You have to get much closer to actually protect your lings at melee range. In the air you can so easily make a dark swarm hallways its silly.
If we really wanted to fulfill that arbitary requirement of 1 flying caster perhaps infestor could have dark swarm research at hive tech. That might be a tad bit too much of a stretch. An even worse solution is a hive tech infestor in general.
Fungle growth is geared more for tier 2, and plague is better geared for late game at tier 3. If it wasn't for that I would love to see plague on the infestor instead of fungle because it is a pre-cast spell.
I'm extremely interested in knowing what Kabel intends to do with this pandoras box, as any solution is filled with holes.
Another interesting issue was the banshee change. Historically BW did not have any air superiority fighters that simply countered capital ships. Even scourge weren't exactly the most cost efficient. Wraiths had to make sure the enemy lacked detection, or the ships were locked down. They were rarely used in this role, ground based answers have always been the cornerstone answer. I liked this aspect. Capitals could use terrain to their advantage vs the ground base anti air that would win in a straight up fight. It made it a battle of position instead of a-move. Is there any reason Terran needs a "viking"?
Overall these design changes did not greatly impact the game which you frankly haven't played to test out the changes. So when you say done with starbow do you mean you are just done discussing it? The game is pretty much the same as Kabel left it, minus plenty of bug fixes. Vikings see just as little use as they did before. People have not been on that often to play TvZ's, and even so players don't often get dark swarm in the first place as has always been the case. You can still go sc2 style or bw style, but we usually see sc2 style zerg with lurker support. Even nullifiers don't see that much use because they are quite tricky to use but they have potential.
Positive changes are that bio is actually a viable openner vs Protoss now (unless P has a build that counters it easily). It isn't straight forward sc2 style bio, it is high apm intensity very tricky multitasking style.
Economy feels almost perfect.
What exactly is wrong and or has gone in the wrong direction? This mod is built off of feedback. Simply leaving because you don't like 1 or 2 changes and then declaring the entire largely the same mod defunct is silly.
We've made it a point to keep the game play largely the same because me and Xiphias both felt it just needed to be stabilized and then it would be ready for a larger audience brought by asking SC2 general for beta testers. There was never an effort made to drastically alter the game play.
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well it was a little fuzzy around the details..
but i feel like you change stuff too fast... theres almost a difference between three days of playing the mod..
sometimes bigger changes.. sometimes smaller..
im a conservative player..
just dont like it, thats that
been fun playing
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On June 02 2013 04:19 Izerman wrote:
well it was a little fuzzy around the details..
but i feel like you change stuff too fast... theres almost a difference between three days of playing the mod..
sometimes bigger changes.. sometimes smaller..
im a conservative player..
just dont like it, thats that
been fun playing
Mm sorry that wasn't mainly directed at you.
Consider this. We haven't done anything nearly on par with how big of changes Kabel has made.
We've never touched something as fundamental as like adding or removing the immortal, given reapers or hellions spider mines or any other core changes.
I promise in practice the game play hasn't changed very much.
I think the biggest change that has actually made a big difference on game play was the banshee change. From in game testing player feedback was really positive. It is simply a fun unit to use. If Kabel thinks T needs some sort of anti air starport unit built off reactor, the viking could easily be tweaked and still retain the role of ground based anti muta without changing the gameplay incredibly so. Then it could be given to starport and retain ship upgrades. Just needs some number tweaking to make it happen.
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EPT
