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*Small Fix:
The Arbiter in the F12 Help screen says it's a flying air-superiority fighter strong against banshees and mutalisks =_=
The Marine doesn't have combat shields listed as an upgrade
The vulture doesn't have it's speed listed as an upgrade
Siege mode upgrade...
Charon boosters...
Ill just stop here. They aren't huge issues, just thought I'd point em out.
Thank you so much for listing these! I'll add them to my list of tooltip fixes. =)
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Front page says defenders advantage is better in Starbow, is this a specific mechanic (e.g. high ground miss chance) or a result of the other changes described (or both)
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On January 29 2013 06:16 kuroshiro wrote:
Front page says defenders advantage is better in Starbow, is this a specific mechanic (e.g. high ground miss chance) or a result of the other changes described (or both)
Good question! I will add it to the FAQ at the front page!
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"- High ground system. All units below other units that shoot or attack up have a 50% chance to miss. If they miss, they deal no damage at all. This happens if for example Stalkers below a cliff shoots at units above the cliff. This also applies in a ramp. For example Zealots that fight enemy Zealots on a ramp favors those who are the highest up on the ramp. "
Wow, that's a bold move, I'm glad at least one of the major mods is doing it though! (Don't know anything about the others except that they exist, so forgive my ignorance if they also do it). Is there any discussion on how this affects the turtling vs. expanding dynamic? i.e. would too strong a defenders advantage encourage heavy turtling and building up armies, or is that sufficiently offset (like it was in broodwar), by the need to expand to optimise production.
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I hope the defenders advantage helps to make players more able to take control over areas of the maps. I think that fights over territory is more fun, especially if both players have lots of territory across the map. If so, they must have the methods to hold bases vs enemy armies, while at the same time have the methods to also be aggressive and harass.
For example, a few lurkers, a few spine crawlers, 1 queen with transfusion and good building placement can whitstand the attack of 15-20 zealots with speed + 1 observer. .. This makes deathball play NOT the best way to go.. With deathball play I mean that it can be bad to A-move with a tightly packed army into a defence like this since there is a risk of loosing a lot of units vs quite few units.. Instead P must use Reavers, Templars or spells to destroy the Lurkers and THEN send in the army.. I just think this leads to more interesting play by both players.. of course P could probably take the base with brute force but it will be at a high cost..
I can´t tell if the defenders advantage is too good or too bad and exactly what type of gameplay it contributes too. Yet. There are other factors that also determines that. Maybe it turns out that all game lasts 45 minutes or more with loooots of turtling.. Or maybe a fine balance arises..
Here is a nice TvP played just 1 hour ago - Its quite a long game, but here the ups and downs with the defender advantage shows.. The game can be "locked" into a slow pace if one player chooses to play that way.. On the other hand, there are lots of windows for harassment in order to grind down the opponents economy.. And IF the opponent turtles like crazy (Im not saying they do in this game) then the other player can expand over the map and win in that way..
Anyways, here is the replay with good players: http://drop.sc/299980
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So there is the map Andromeda on NA, and it has a backdoor with no rocks or blockers and requires 4 separate buildings to wall off + the main ramp and natural which are like 50 miles away from back door by ground. Pretty sure BW Andromeda didn't have that... and as a consequence, terran basically doesn't have a wallin vs zerg and thus dies to ling rushes.
Someone fix please.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 29 2013 08:22 Kabel wrote:I hope the defenders advantage helps to make players more able to take control over areas of the maps. I think that fights over territory is more fun, especially if both players have lots of territory across the map. If so, they must have the methods to hold bases vs enemy armies, while at the same time have the methods to also be aggressive and harass. For example, a few lurkers, a few spine crawlers, 1 queen with transfusion and good building placement can whitstand the attack of 15-20 zealots with speed + 1 observer. .. This makes deathball play NOT the best way to go.. With deathball play I mean that it can be bad to A-move with a tightly packed army into a defence like this since there is a risk of loosing a lot of units vs quite few units.. Instead P must use Reavers, Templars or spells to destroy the Lurkers and THEN send in the army.. I just think this leads to more interesting play by both players.. of course P could probably take the base with brute force but it will be at a high cost.. I can´t tell if the defenders advantage is too good or too bad and exactly what type of gameplay it contributes too. Yet. There are other factors that also determines that. Maybe it turns out that all game lasts 45 minutes or more with loooots of turtling.. Or maybe a fine balance arises.. Here is a nice TvP played just 1 hour ago - Its quite a long game, but here the ups and downs with the defender advantage shows.. The game can be "locked" into a slow pace if one player chooses to play that way.. On the other hand, there are lots of windows for harassment in order to grind down the opponents economy.. And IF the opponent turtles like crazy (Im not saying they do in this game) then the other player can expand over the map and win in that way.. Anyways, here is the replay with good players: http://drop.sc/299980
Nice game, but the thing that I did not like the end is: "death ball" vs "death ball"
Goliath vs carriers. Players fight for the target unit and try to have a more compact army to maximize dps x m2
Terran tries to snipe a carrier one by one. To be more successful in his business, seeks to unite goliath as it can.
Protoss use carriers, to maximize the damage he tries to stack carriers.
But the goal of starbow is not to eliminate this? Yeah, arbiter is more efficient is goliath are massed, but goliath if no are compact, lose their effectiveness vs carriers. How to solve this problem?
My goliath solve this problem 
Give at goliath thor's attack (change damage, but bonus vs light), with upgrade get splash damage.
This goliath is able to kill interceptors. To increase its effectiveness, the goliath must be separated, so that the interceptos is impiallino above the goliath. If carriers are stack, goliath could do much harm to their.
If goliath are compact, they lose their effectiveness because even try to aim for carriers that interceptors. These goliath are effective vs armored only if the latter are stack.
If goliath now is efficient vs light air units, viking must be a good counter to armored air units.
gl hf
Edit:
Ps: the old goliath with splash damage, it was different: bonus vs armored, splash damage really low.
This is not working, it was no strong nor against armored, nor against light mass.
Thor attack is different.
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I believe we already went over the goliath | Thor | viking relationship. I dont feel like changing it at this point.
I g2g to bed, cant elaborate more
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Balance issues I keep an eye on:
- The production rate between races.. It seems like Zerg can get more supply earlier than P and T..
- Protoss can A-move into Terran sieged tanks + spider mines and still win, even if the supply of both armies is even..
- 2-3 Corsairs + 1 Scout vs. Terran can "lock" him.. Hover above the factories and no Goliaths can come out since they are lifted 1 by 1 and destroyed..
- Infestors can use Neural Parasite when burrowed.. It is really strong, especially vs. Terran. Keep in mind when a Infestor uses Neural parasite, it becomes "benign" which means that enemy units must focus fire it.. I consider to remove Neural parasite from burrowed Infestors completely.. If so, it will cast no spells when burried..
- Nerve Jammers right now affects all units.. I consider to revert it so it only affect enemy units.. There is very few situations when it is useful now.. When P or Z attacks into a Terran army, they will just move past the Nerve Jammers since battles are so mobile.. The Jammer is good vs. targets that stand still, like tanks + lurkers.. IF Nerve Jammers only affect enemy units Terran can use it to protect their own tanks vs. Zealots & Zerglings, for example.. It just becomes more braoder.. Keep in mind that the spell costs 125 energy too..
- Creep regeneration might require the Infested Creep upg. Zerg units will only regenerate faster on creep if the upgrade is researched. The reason for this is that Hydras + Overlords are very strong when attacking Protoss.. Attack, P storms, the Hydras get wounded, back away to the Overlords and regenerate on creep.. Attack again..
There are of course some other problems as well. I just lifted a couple of them here..
@Traceback
I will send an updated version of Andromeda to December
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The production rate between races.. It seems like Zerg can get more supply earlier than P and T..
- nerf slightly spawn larvae queen ability
- Protoss can A-move into Terran sieged tanks + spider mines and still win, even if the supply of both armies is even..
Increased mines damage or splash. Vulture are used solely for mines. In this way, the protoss must think 2 times before attacking without split his army. I think Firebat could replace them without gaps.
- 2-3 Corsairs + 1 Scout vs. Terran can "lock" him.. Hover above the factories and no Goliaths can come out since they are lifted 1 by 1 and destroyed..
- change class type in non armored (my goliath kill corsair ^^)
- Infestors can use Neural Parasite when burrowed.. It is really strong, especially vs. Terran. Keep in mind when a Infestor uses Neural parasite, it becomes "benign" which means that enemy units must focus fire it.. I consider to remove Neural parasite from burrowed Infestors completely.. If so, it will cast no spells when burried..
- NO! This can be solved by Reducing ulteriolmente dell'infestor life (80 hp). Casters should be fragile, I have to choose if it's worth losing them, and to obtain advantage (neural). The risk is because 1 Infestor costs 150 gas.
Now snipe kill infestors (if no burrowed), and tank with 2 upgrade attack, oneshot infestor.
- Nerve Jammers right now affects all units.. I consider to revert it so it only affect enemy units.. There is very few situations when it is useful now.. When P or Z attacks into a Terran army, they will just move past the Nerve Jammers since battles are so mobile.. The Jammer is good vs. targets that stand still, like tanks + lurkers.. IF Nerve Jammers only affect enemy units Terran can use it to protect their own tanks vs. Zealots & Zerglings, for example.. It just becomes more braoder.. Keep in mind that the spell costs 125 energy too..
-Needless to mention it, as it is now I think it's good. In my opinion should be used on ranged units, you have to place it carefully if you want to use it on melee units. The game needs to be explored, matrix on tank has not been tried yet.
- Creep regeneration might require the Infested Creep upg. Zerg units will only regenerate faster on creep if the upgrade is researched. The reason for this is that Hydras + Overlords are very strong when attacking Protoss.. Attack, P storms, the Hydras get wounded, back away to the Overlords and regenerate on creep.. Attack again..
do as you see fit, reavers are now really strong vs hydra and stalkers are a little better vs them. I think storm should just damage or escape hydra. Vortex also temporarily remove 16 hydra from the battlefield in order to obtain an advantage army.
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On January 30 2013 01:03 Kabel wrote:
Balance issues I keep an eye on:
- The production rate between races.. It seems like Zerg can get more supply earlier than P and T..
I think this is good actually. Or... what I think is important is the following: I every non-mirror match up one of the races should always have slightly better macro than the other. In XvZ it should be zerg, or in other words: If terran or toss is playing vs zerg it is terran or toss that will suffer most if they fail to put on any pressure or harassment on the zerg player. It is the nature of the races. Zerg is a macro - reactive race that can also be agressive. If a good zerg player is left alone for a long period of time he will win. It was like that in BW and it should be like that in SB. In TvP it is P that can macro the hardest when left alone. Same as in BW. This is a good thing! It adds dynamic to the game and making default agressors and defenders. Zerg can, of course, surprise and be aggressive ( anko*) but that just adds to the dynamic.
- Protoss can A-move into Terran sieged tanks + spider mines and still win, even if the supply of both armies is even..
Not my experience. Maybe I have the wrong army composition.
- 2-3 Corsairs + 1 Scout vs. Terran can "lock" him.. Hover above the factories and no Goliaths can come out since they are lifted 1 by 1 and destroyed..
Kinda like mutas vs terran if they are not carefull. This might reslove through metagame.
- Infestors can use Neural Parasite when burrowed.. It is really strong, especially vs. Terran. Keep in mind when a Infestor uses Neural parasite, it becomes "benign" which means that enemy units must focus fire it.. I consider to remove Neural parasite from burrowed Infestors completely.. If so, it will cast no spells when burried..
I agree with JohnnyZerg on this one, reduce their hp or neural range. So cool to have a spell that can be casted while burrowed.
- Nerve Jammers right now affects all units.. I consider to revert it so it only affect enemy units.. There is very few situations when it is useful now.. When P or Z attacks into a Terran army, they will just move past the Nerve Jammers since battles are so mobile.. The Jammer is good vs. targets that stand still, like tanks + lurkers.. IF Nerve Jammers only affect enemy units Terran can use it to protect their own tanks vs. Zealots & Zerglings, for example.. It just becomes more braoder.. Keep in mind that the spell costs 125 energy too..
Agreed
- Creep regeneration might require the Infested Creep upg. Zerg units will only regenerate faster on creep if the upgrade is researched. The reason for this is that Hydras + Overlords are very strong when attacking Protoss.. Attack, P storms, the Hydras get wounded, back away to the Overlords and regenerate on creep.. Attack again..
I'll start getting the upgrade then
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Some of these things will probably change due to meta game yes. So its not that I must patch it all.
reavers are now really strong vs hydra
They are as strong now as they were before vs. Hydras. No difference in the latest patch.
@Ranking system
I have no idea how to create this. Where should we start? What is the first step?
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If we have no idea:
1. Contact Maveck.
2. Get all the stuff they use in SC2BW ranking system
3. Apply it to Starbow.
4. Play great games.
5. Weep because I'll beat you all.
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Not sure if anyone saw my post about the ranking system earlier:
On January 28 2013 06:37 purakushi wrote:Regarding a ranking system for Starbow, I am currently collaborating with someone regarding an external rating system (i.e. ELO website and corresponding program) for my own mod. I will hopefully have more details about it later this week. He seems keen on getting more people involved in the future, and I offered to tell the other mod communities about his work. Things are progressing well, so stay tuned.
If you want to use Maverck's in-game one, the ladder/statistics triggers are in the SC2BW Data mod file. It is a bit bugged though, as it counts total games as the total losses, and I am not sure he has fixed it. It is easy to adapt into your own mod, though, if you want to find the bug yourself.
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Then I am excited about the details later this week I'll try to be patient...
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Hey Kabel. Just wanted to say congratulations for how far Starbow has come since the last time we worked together. It is crazy how far it has come since then. I am glad that you didn't shut down the mod like you were going to do back then.
The amount of support this mod has gotten is intense! Nice work dude.
Just wanted to chime in. Hope everything works out with your ranking system and I wish for great success and enjoyment.
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On January 30 2013 01:03 Kabel wrote:
Balance issues I keep an eye on:
- The production rate between races.. It seems like Zerg can get more supply earlier than P and T..
I agree with Xiphias' views on this,
- Protoss can A-move into Terran sieged tanks + spider mines and still win, even if the supply of both armies is even..
Can't comment, haven't seen enough games yet since coming back.
- 2-3 Corsairs + 1 Scout vs. Terran can "lock" him.. Hover above the factories and no Goliaths can come out since they are lifted 1 by 1 and destroyed..
Missile turrets should be able to deal with this, I would think.
- Infestors can use Neural Parasite when burrowed.. It is really strong, especially vs. Terran. Keep in mind when a Infestor uses Neural parasite, it becomes "benign" which means that enemy units must focus fire it.. I consider to remove Neural parasite from burrowed Infestors completely.. If so, it will cast no spells when burried..
As a Zerg player I agree that this spell has been incredibly powerful in my games so far. I love the stealthy, subversive feel it gives the Infestor so I would be very sad to see it removed entirely, however some nerfs might be in order. Possibly start with an increased energy cost?
- Nerve Jammers right now affects all units.. I consider to revert it so it only affect enemy units.. There is very few situations when it is useful now.. When P or Z attacks into a Terran army, they will just move past the Nerve Jammers since battles are so mobile.. The Jammer is good vs. targets that stand still, like tanks + lurkers.. IF Nerve Jammers only affect enemy units Terran can use it to protect their own tanks vs. Zealots & Zerglings, for example.. It just becomes more braoder.. Keep in mind that the spell costs 125 energy too..
I think Nerve Jammers should be a one-sided ability that favor the T player. Of course that causes problems in TvT if both players are using Nerve Jammers, trying to tell which is which. If there's a way to color code them visibly then I would go with reverting.
- Creep regeneration might require the Infested Creep upg. Zerg units will only regenerate faster on creep if the upgrade is researched. The reason for this is that Hydras + Overlords are very strong when attacking Protoss.. Attack, P storms, the Hydras get wounded, back away to the Overlords and regenerate on creep.. Attack again..
The fact that Infested Creep still makes a distinction between creep spread by Overlords and creep spread by Tumors and Hatches still bugs the crap out of me. But as that's irrelevant for this particular issue, I'm gonna skip over it and say I agree with making the fast regen an upgrade. It will also help with rushes in ZvZ.
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@ The ranking system
Depending on what ranking system is easiest to implement, most optimal and just most.. awesome.. I will stick with that ^^
I just need to see more details and understand the different systems better before anything is added. But its cool that many of you are looking at possible solutions. All help on this matter is highly appreciated!
@MNdakota
Thank you! I will not forget the support you gave me in the early days! For all of you who do not know, I worked on Starbow for ca 2 months after its first release a year ago.. Then I kinda gave up on it around March.. "Whats the point? No one will bother about this anyway.." I came back in April I think, after a month of not even looking at this thread.. I decided to give it one more go.. so I released a new patch and got no real response.. I wrote a post here where I said that this project is canceled. Dakota and Ulose stopped me. Dakota even uploaded some nice youtube videos that presented Starbow and the content in the mod. (At that time) And it made me happy enough to make it worth to continue : )
@Reddit
No need to make a hostile thread like that. A lot of players enjoy SC2. People will not be more interested in trying this if they are told their favourite game sucks. Instead use the thread to present Starbow - whats in the game, show some replays, the promo-video, maybe some VODs later on. Hopefully might someone be interested in this.
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EPT
