On January 31 2013 20:36 Kabel wrote: @Advertisement for Starbow
I have talked with an administrator and it would be ok if I make a thread in the SC2 General to attract more potential players. So I aim to do that. But not yet.
I know many of you push me to spread this more. But I do not think it is good enough. Still. It is on a good way to become enjoyable and well created. But there are still flaws:
- new bugs and errors are found (even though they become more rare) - the balance is not good enough. Ofc I can´t reach perfect balance with a small player pool. But there are some broken things in the game that MUST be fixed. - the map pool must be adjusted. There are some flaws in a few maps that I will try to fix. (Or contact Terranlover, but he seems to be a bit inactve now) - get some really good games that can be added as Vods to the thread. Both december and Xiphias are great casters. The "completed" Starbow has only been around for 10 days and players are still a bit unfamiliar with the gameplay. (Including me! I float 2000 minerals and gas in games etc)
I have one chance to make a good impression. I do not want to show something mediocre. But I expect that maybe 1-3 more patches can be enough to get the game at a good enough level.
Thoughts?
And the viking splash dmg must be fixed. It does virtually nothing now. ( itlooks cool though ) I feel there are two sides to this coin. Yes, the game is a bit flawed and some errors must be fixed. There are e.g. error messages that pop-up when missile turrets hits the shield of warpprisms and sometimes other toss units (I think). Also the nullifier looks weird when clocked (or is that fixed?). On the other hand; I feel you might be expecting a bit too much before we "reliese" this. I say maybe 1-2 patches. Mostly bug-fixing and fixing this that was intentially to be fixed (like the stalker should be better vs mutas, I agree on that one). Don't be too strick with yourself. This is a great game! To the point where you wonder how blizzard manged to make SC2 so .....
Another concern: I've been trying the same start in ZvT a lot lately and if I execute it right it seem to be very strong (might be worse if neural gets nerfed). Every time I lose with it it is my own fault and not the build (atm). But I have never gotten muta-play to work vs terran in starbow. Not even close to working. Might just be me having to learn the metagame. Do we want muta-play to be viable vs Terran? (There are a lot of other options atm). If yes, how do we do that in such a way that mutas are not too good vs toss and zvz can be about more than muta-play in the mid-game?
I bumb this one so it show here on the new page, since it is an important topic many ask me about. (I dont want anyone to miss it
@Advertisement for Starbow
I have talked with an administrator and it would be ok if I make a thread in the SC2 General to attract more potential players. So I aim to do that. But not yet.
I know many of you push me to spread Starbow more. But I do not think it is good enough. Yet. It is on a good way to become enjoyable and well created. But there are still flaws:
- new bugs and errors are found (even though they become more rare) - the balance is not good enough. Ofc I can´t reach perfect balance with a small player pool. But there are some broken things in the game that MUST be fixed. - the map pool must be adjusted. There are some flaws in a few maps that I will try to fix. (Or contact Terranlover, but he seems to be a bit inactive now) - get some really good games that can be added as Vods to the thread. Both december and Xiphias are great casters. The "completed" Starbow has only been around for 10 days and players are still a bit unfamiliar with the gameplay. (Including me! I float 2000 minerals and gas in games etc) - Fix a ranking system (Personally I have never cared about ranking in games, but I think many players do? It can also be a good way to "match" opponents of the same skill level?)
I have one chance to make a good impression. I do not want to show something mediocre. But I expect that maybe 1-3 more patches can be enough to get the game at a good enough level.
I edited and published blue storm. The map is called "Starbow Blue storm 2.0 test". If the map gets positive ratings, i send it to kabel, and he will finally decide whether to publish it and replace it with the old blue storm. I also implemented a ranking system to see if it works.
Oh, can we get some slightly bluish-purple or bluish-grey light on Blue Storm to make it feel a little more like the old one but with a new feel, instead of like a completely new map? Just a request.
Nice, I will come online later and have a look. @Fuchsteufelswild
I am not the maker of any of the maps in the map pool. They are all created by Terranlover. I am not sure he would be so happy if any of his maps are reworked to a large extent. Plus I am horrible at both create and edit maps. I assume that he does not mind small modifications. When I get in contact with him again I can ask him. There are a couple of small issues on each map I would like him to have a look at.
I'd like hallucinations could be used on enemy units. If this is too strong vs massive units, make ht Creates only one of hallucination That unit. If cast a spell on hallucination, it disappears. As bw.
I noticed, too, that storm is a lot of spam, and players do not bother to finish energy. Could be solved in this way: -psi storm costs 100 energy -Storm Research now cost 100min 100gas and 80s -Add amulet research (cost 100min 100gas and 60s) -Amulet increased by 25 start energy for ht
In this way, if you research amulet before psi storm, effect is same. But to have an extra storm, you have to wait more. This small nerf, could be justified by the buff hallucination.
For corsair, reduce bt from 42 to 38. Hydras and marines (after several nerf to gravitonic beam and corsair damage) are more efficient vs corsair.
Hallucination would be a broader spell if it was also useable on enemy units. That is good. I generally like versatile spells. The bad part is that it would change the nature of Hallucination quite drastic. Right now, it is one of few pre-combat spells Protoss has. It is a spell that must be used before combat, at a good timing, it requires more army management and micro. (Send in the hallucinations first, seperate them from the main army etc)
IF Hallucination could be cast on enemy units, it would be sooo much better to spam it in combat. Why send in Zealots vs the tanks when you can cast Hallucination ON the tank and make the tanks splash each other? Why Hallucinate Zealots when you can cast it on the enemy Ultras to mess up their AI? It becomes a spammable spell that turns the enemies best units agains them in a very easy way. (Which I also recognize as a problem with Neural parasite)
Of course this can be adjusted with a shorter cast range on Hallucination. But it would still change the nature of the spell in a way I do not like. But I will think more about this and see if something positive can come out of a change like this.
You know, I'm really torn on the whole promoting it to a really broad audience, man... Like, I just played some "high masters eu" player on na-server who "beats the likes of TLO". Which in theory sounds awesome cause new (supposedly) good players join Starbow. But the problem with widening audiences (not that I am a saint or anything :p): Holy shit, they can be self-righteous, pretentious, entitled and bad mannered assfaces.
Aside from that, I learned from the game that apparently Protoss has no way to deal with Terran-Mech in Starbow, lol
Edit: Sorry, just had to get that rant out there. Some people... jeeeeez...
Sc2 game JohnnyZerg (Z) vs Goblin (T) Goblin is a my old friend by bw times. http://drop.sc/301077 Although much has nothing to do with starbow, this game is unique and differs from the normal game of sc2
I apply this on starbow in a Z vs T goes mech? drop hydra and zergling, can work? perhaps between turrets and goliath, will remain just a dream.
Jay wins. I do a harrass opener to someone, Jay defends with surprisingly well 3 queens. Good creep spread by him in general, and nice pair of drops to choke off the game after he stabilized. Should have kept attacking and stopped him from droning up after the opening. Banshees could have been micro'd and saved, instead of being a-moved in the general direction of the expos. Seriously, 2 starport science vessel is a lot of irradiate if you use them properly. Really need to clear creep and learn how to do straight up pushes, while doing other things. I now have more apm with terran than I do with protoss. Huzzah.
On February 01 2013 07:15 Azelja wrote: You know, I'm really torn on the whole promoting it to a really broad audience, man... Like, I just played some "high masters eu" player on na-server who "beats the likes of TLO". Which in theory sounds awesome cause new (supposedly) good players join Starbow. But the problem with widening audiences (not that I am a saint or anything :p): Holy shit, they can be self-righteous, pretentious, entitled and bad mannered assfaces. Edit: Sorry, just had to get that rant out there. Some people... jeeeeez...
I've got to agree with this, at least the sentiments about people. I won't care in the slightest about losing games to any of you. If end up being the worst player, I won't feel hurt as things are. Put me in the same situation but with people like that in Starbow and it becomes a very different story. It's nice to be away from the scum.
EDIT: I'm watching those two Johnnyzerg replays. Firs note: Blue Storm wall off to third might not be too bad for terran (or rather too nice for them to be fair with the rocks) because of the distance for SCVs to travel in order to repair. They need to keep good scouting to check if something is coming so that they can pull SCVs in time. My concern would be protoss wall-offs being too easy. - After attacking rocks, two of the four zerglings deal -5 damage!! I guess this is related to the miss rate, but it shouldn't still show up after they stop attacking and I would also be concerned that they may deal 0 damage/miss their next opponent even if not fighting uphill. This needs to be checked.
Still wary of Gollies popping out of factories two at a time, still no hard evidence it's unfair either. I'm just worried it'll tighten enemy timing windows too much. You guys (Kabel +1) wanted to make Stalkers better against mutalisks. Some pages ago, I suggested a few things like making terran plating as cheap as vehicle weapons or even swapping the costs) and also swapping the costs of Protoss Air Weapon and Air Armour upgrades, seeing as armour is mostly unused and usually has less of an effect than the weapons but is currently the more expensive. I also said the same for Zerg Flyer Attack and Carapace and said that if need be, you could also justify (slightly) increased damage bonuses from the upgrades for some units, main one being making it +1/+1/+1 for mutalisk bouncing hits instead of the current +1/+.333/+.111. In the same post, I suggested that for a good role as a harassment unit without being quite as good at picking off buildings as quickly or being as good vs anti-air units, stalkers or goliaths, you could change the base damage of their initial hit from 9 to 8. If you wanted it to be better than it currently is versus other things, you can make it 8+2 vs Biological. If you want it to remain as good as it is now except vs mechanical units, you go with 8+1 vs Biological. Failing that you can give the mutalisk the finger and make it a flat 8 damage for the first hit. Another version that makes them worse in general while being slightly better in other situations would be changing damage from 9/3/1 to 8/4/2, so that in small numbers, opponents will take less damage due to there not consistently being so many enemies, meaning there aren't always two bouncing shots (there have to be enough targets close enough for it to bounce twice all the time), but if there are, it can potentially deal more to targets with 0 and (marginal though) 1 armour. I'll link (and spoiler) the exact post for the exact thoughts from that time, to reconsider.
On January 16 2013 17:36 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I don't remember mentioning it before (certainly thought about it though) but it would be nice if the costs for Zerg Flyer Attack and Carapace were swapped, seeing as the carapace isn't really worth that. I'd actually say the same for Protoss Air Weapons and Armour (weapons are cheaper :S) Perhaps (if necessary to make it valuable still), mutalisks could gain +1 per hit instead of +1/+.333/+.111 and then, if necessary, you slightly strengthen the gains for corruptors and BLs from the attack upgrade. The same sort of slight adjustments for other units (of the other races) if necessary would probably be good for making all upgrades and technologies useful more often, i.e. introducing more choices.
Like this (only my example, so to any newcomers, don't get confused and think they've already been applied!): + Show Spoiler +
PROTOSS The cost of Upgrade Air Weapons Level 1 has been increased to 150/150, up from 100/100 The cost of Upgrade Air Weapons Level 2 has been increased to 225/225, up from 175/175 The cost of Upgrade Air Weapons Level 3 has been increased to 300/300, up from 250/250 (They scale far too well for the current cost, at least in normal SC2, but for carriers at least. If they don't in Starbow, I'd personally favour making Scout weapon upgrades good enough so that this needs to be more expensive.)
So then you would have something like "Scout bonus damage per hit changed from +1 vs ground and +1 per hit (2 hits) to +1 vs ground and +2 per hit (2 hits). If we have any other protoss air units that attack that aren't the Carrier or Corsair, you could buff their attack too. "Arbiters now deal slightly less pathetic air to ground damage and become capable of holding off small ling run-bys on their own, with +4 damage per upgrade. With enough upgrades, they start to 1/2 shot lings." This sort of thing. They'd still be terrible for normal combat, which is desirable.
The cost of Upgrade Air Plating Level 1 has been decreased to 100/100, down from 150/150 The cost of Upgrade Air Plating Level 2 has been decreased to 175/175, down from 225/225 The cost of Upgrade Air Plating Level 3 has been decreased to 250/250, down from 300/300 (Like Terran Ship Plating, too expensive for how useful it is (or isn't)).
TERRAN The cost of Upgrade Ship Plating Level 1 has been decreased to 100/100, down from 150/150 The cost of Upgrade Ship Plating Level 2 has been decreased to 175/175, down from 225/225 The cost of Upgrade Ship Plating Level 3 has been decreased to 250/250, down from 300/300 (Currently too expensive for the value of the upgrades and the realistic and fair to expect chance of terran ever being able to afford 3 Ship Plating. All of the other Armoury upgrades already cost the same as the lower amounts listed above.)
Infantry weapons scale too well also, especially +3 marines vs buildings, but leave it for now as I don't want an argument about increasing the costs for Zerg Mêlée when there's good reason for that to be cheaper which I can explain
ZERG The cost of Upgrade Flyer Attack Level 1 has been increased to 150/150, up from 100/100 The cost of Upgrade Flyer Attack Level 2 has been increased to 225/225, up from 175/175 The cost of Upgrade Flyer Attack Level 3 has been increased to 300/300, up from 250/250 (Generally more useful than Flyer Carapace upgrades, especially for harassing buildings and workers with mutalisks, carapace barely helps Brood Lords to survive as enough marines positioned under them will slaughter them regardless, especially as terran has so much more ease and incentive to keep upgrading Infantry Weapons and nothing else deals large damage in rapid small hits. The suggested Mutalisk and Brood Lord upgrade changes awould mean this upgrade should probably cost more).
The cost of Upgrade Flyer Carapace Level 1 has been decreased to 100/100, down from 150/150 The cost of Upgrade Flyer Carapace Level 2 has been decreased to 175/175, down from 225/225 The cost of Upgrade Flyer Carapace Level 3 has been decreased to 250/250, down from 300/300 (Flyer Carapace upgrades are not that useful at the current cost)
Mutalisk bonuses to bouncing damage changes from +1/+0.33/+0.11 to +1/+1/+1. Possibly also change Mutalisk primary attack from 9 per hit to 8+2 vs bio to help harass vs marines, to be better at dealing with lings and zealots while allowing corsairs, scouts, goliaths and stalkers (as key examples) to deal with mutalisks a little better?
In the replay, JohnnyZerg's macro was not great (no ofence) but his Hydralisks seemed even better vs mech (than in BW) now, certainly related to the 100 life they now have.
Starbow Blue Storm 2.0 test Updated! -removed destructible rocks from natural to 3rd. Now it takes 4 2x2 buildings to close the passage, or 2 3x3 buildings and 1 2x2 building.
Edit: Starbow Blue Storm 2.0 test updated for new patch
Zealots build time has been reduced from 42 to 36 seconds. (It is 38 in normal SC2. But keep in mind that chrono boost is weaker now. Hopefully will early Zealots be more viable in both PvT, PvZ and PvP as a way to apply early pressure.)
Psi storm dmg incrased from 112 to 129. Cost 100 energy instead of 75. Amulett research has been added to the Templar Archives, which increases the starting energy for HT from 50 to 75. The reason for this is to make storm less spammy but more powerful.
Terran
Calldown SCV cooldown decreased from 60 to 50 seconds.
Nerve Jammer now affects enemy units only. (The energy cost is still at 125.)
Vikings splash upgrade has been temporarily modified. It now works in a slightly different way. The reason for this is that I encountered some gameplay problems. I will discuss this with XiA and see if any possible solutions can come for the next patch.
Zerg
Infestors can no longer cast Neural parasite while burrowed. To compensate for this, Infestors are "benign" for 1.5 seconds when they unburrow. This means that they are not auto-attacked by the enemy. There is a small window of time for a Infestor to unburrow near the enemy army and cast Fungal, Plague or Neural parasite without being hit. As usual, the Infestor will be benign while it is channeling Neural parasite. The reason for all this is that it was very easy to spam neural parasite. Move your army burrowed under your zerglings and hydras and cast neural on all enemy tanks. The enemy can not even focus fire the hidden Infestors.
Zerg creep heals 1.5 Hp per second now when Zerg units are out of combat. (Earlier it was 2 HP per second)
Transfuse heal 75 HP instead of 100.
Burrow research cost increased to 150/150 from 100/100. Zerg units can still move while burrowed.. (Not lurkers and banelings though)
Other
Bug fixes and improved button descriptions made by XiA!
Now there are some other concerns in the game that I did not adress in this patch. I take it in small steps.
Edit: And as usual, share your thoughts on this. I can explain my reasons for the changes if anyone wanna hear them. But sometimes I make bad balance changes.. Thats why feedback and other persons point of view are important for me to hear.. so I do not get "blind" in my own view of the balance.
I am really sad about the infestor losing it's burrow nueral T__T That was one of the coolest things I felt the infestor should have, but I do like that you at least put a benign on it after unburrow. That allows a millisecond (real time) of OH $#@! before all your tanks turn against you.
Don't know about the burrow cost nerf. Was it neccesary? Just curious about it...
Love the zealot buff. My pro-status 2gate zealot nexus in PvZ will become standard :D.
EPT
) I feel there are two sides to this coin. Yes, the game is a bit flawed and some errors must be fixed. There are e.g. error messages that pop-up when missile turrets hits the shield of warpprisms and sometimes other toss units (I think). Also the nullifier looks weird when clocked (or is that fixed?). On the other hand; I feel you might be expecting a bit too much before we "reliese" this. I say maybe 1-2 patches. Mostly bug-fixing and fixing this that was intentially to be fixed (like the stalker should be better vs mutas, I agree on that one). Don't be too strick with yourself. This is a great game! To the point where you wonder how blizzard manged to make SC2 so .....
I'm just worried it'll tighten enemy timing windows too much.
