EPT[A] Starbow - Page 178
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Edit: long ranged attack but air to air or ground to ground. Not banshees. Sorry for writing it unclear. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Bio include marines, which are very effective against small air unit. Sc2 viking, would fill these gaps, counter armored units as bc, carriers, broodlord. Mech has goliath, no good vs light units, propose to add splash attack anti-aircraft, such as thor (a little larger) to solve this problem. Sc2 viking counter armored units as bc, carriers, broodlord. @ Groud viking and goliath Units are very similar, I would suggest to replace the weapon goliath anti ground units with that of the marauder (no bonus vs armored) concursive including. @Medic Add a new ability: mass restor (restore as bw but splash) Remove all harmful effects present on the target units (fungal, plague, lockdown, stasis field ecc...) @ Alternative protoss detection Scout Give Envision mothership core ability watch here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mothership_Core Maybe not cost energy but cooldown. High templar Give Revelation oracle ability watch here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Oracle modified in this way: -not work on builds -work on cloack/burrowed units -duration 30 sec Revelation requires an research (optional) @nullifier Give old Oracle Phase Shield ability "We have added a new area of effect ability for the oracle called Phase Shield. Targeted friendly units are shielded from harmful effects for 5 seconds. Fungal Growth, Corruption, Contaminate, Graviton Beam, Concussive Shells, Abduct, Revelation, Vortex, and 250mm Strike Cannons – Phase Shield removes the effect and prevents units from being affected. EMP – Phase Shield removes the anti-cloaking effect but not the damage dealt. Neural Parasite – Phase Shield will not remove this effect but it will prevent units from being affected." But with the following changes: -High cost, 125 energy. -Create a dome (small) and effect take place on the units within it. -Increased duration from 5 at 10 sec. -All ability you can launch (emp, snipe, scan, lockdown, fungal, storm, ecc...), Can Not Be casting inside the dome. -If other adverse effects have been launched before, are not cleared by this ability. Comment me | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Something must be sacrificed. We can not keep everything as in BW if we get Sc2 units into the game. Normal Goliath and normal Vikings do overlap too much. Either one must be changed in some way. On December 11 2012 20:48 Danko__ wrote: I would prefer it opposite way. Goliaths stay same while vikings are now valyries with upgrade for single target long ranged attack (like in sc2) and can use that attack on ground. They wont be so similar and There will be no need to change fine goliaths.i dont like concept of beefy goliaths. No need to add ability/attack that deals high dmg vs single target ground unit. Banshees do that. Snipe. Yamato gun too. If Vikings become mini valkyres - low dmg over large area - it would be a unit that sees play rarely. How often did we see Valkyres in BW? Only TvZ vs masses of enemy air units. I see no reason to build them in TvT or TvP at all, in Starbow. Use it to chase enemy warp prism, banshee, vessel and arbiter? It will be very bad at it. Terran needs an air unit that can chase individual enemy air units. The Wraith is gone. The Viking must be able to do it, especially for chasing away Warp Prism + Reaver and Banshee. Normal Goliaths will still overlap with landed Vikings. Unless I remove landed Vikings. But that kills half the fun of the Viking. I might aswell just import the Valkyre model. But I am not a fan of that either, especially since the Valkyre attack will be painful to get to work properly in the editor. (If the goal is to get a similar attack) I do not mean to make Goliaths 50% larger so they look like Thor. Just a little bit larger so there is a visual difference AND a difference in stats between Goliaths and landed Vikings. If Terran build 1 Goliath, they pay for 1.5 Goliaths and get 1.5 Goliath. Same efficency. Still not cost effective vs enemy ground units, compared to tanks + vulture. Still same total HP as 1.5 Goliaths would have. Or 1.4, 1.3, 1.2 or whatever value that fits. In this way, both Goliath and Vikings will be true to their roles. They will work as people expect them to work. They do what they do and can be microed and controles as usual. The only difference will be that Goliaths gets a small splash attack via an upgrade. So from the two options - change Goliaths or change Vikings, I think the small changes to the Goliath will be the lesser of two evils. It will cause the least problems, require the least work and will be more easy to balance. Unless anyone else has a miraculous solution. @JohnnyZerg @ Groud viking and goliath Units are very similar, I would suggest to replace the weapon goliath anti ground units with that of the marauder (no bonus vs armored) concursive including. Well, yes it would be different compared to landed Vikings. But it would also make Goliaths stronger vs enemy ground units. Unless you mean that only the visual aspect of the marauder attack will be added, but DPS remain as Goliath? @Medic Add a new ability: mass restor (restore as bw but splash) Remove all harmful effects present on the target units (fungal, plague, lockdown, stasis field ecc...) It would fit the Medic. But I am not sure it would be good for the game. In ZvT, Terran would be immune to enemy fungal + plague. Just spam AoE restore on your bio balls. @ Alternative protoss detection Scout Give Envision mothership core ability watch here (Wiki)Mothership Core Maybe not cost energy but cooldown. Why would P need another kind of Observer? The observer does the job just fine. Storm can also be used to destroy cloaked units, which we often see. Storm on Reavers or cloaked Ghosts. High templar Give Revelation oracle ability watch here (Wiki)Oracle modified in this way: -not work on builds -work on cloack/burrowed units -duration 30 sec Revelation requires an research (optional) Why? Observer does that just fine. Plus that Scourge/Neural parasite/Lockdown interacts so well with Observers. Kill the Observer to prevent detection. Observers are cheap, massable, protected via their own cloak. Best detector in the game. @nullifier Give old Oracle Phase Shield ability "We have added a new area of effect ability for the oracle called Phase Shield. Targeted friendly units are shielded from harmful effects for 5 seconds. Fungal Growth, Corruption, Contaminate, Graviton Beam, Concussive Shells, Abduct, Revelation, Vortex, and 250mm Strike Cannons – Phase Shield removes the effect and prevents units from being affected. EMP – Phase Shield removes the anti-cloaking effect but not the damage dealt. Neural Parasite – Phase Shield will not remove this effect but it will prevent units from being affected." But with the following changes: -High cost, 125 energy. -Create a dome (small) and effect take place on the units within it. -Increased duration from 5 at 10 sec. -All ability you can launch (emp, snipe, scan, lockdown, fungal, storm, ecc...), Can Not Be casting inside the dome. -If other adverse effects have been launched before, are not cleared by this ability. The reason I removed the Nullifier was due to the lack of meaningful spells. AoE-Feedback is great. The starting spell was weird. (Made units in an area not auto-attacked) Stasis Field can aswell be on the Arbiter. Nullifiers attack disables an enemy unit.. well.. its mostly useful in PvT vs enemy tanks, and Corsairs already do that - lift up tanks.. I do not think this ability is enough to bring back the Nullifier. It will rarely be useful. If the Nullifier comes back into the game, it must have a set of two really really good spells, apart from Feedback. | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Well, yes it would be different compared to landed Vikings. But it would also make Goliaths stronger vs enemy ground units. Unless you mean that only the visual aspect of the marauder attack will be added, but DPS remain as Goliath? 10 damage, cooldown 1,5 (no bonus vs armored). The dps is almost a nerf, offset by reason grenades concursive slow targets. It would fit the Medic. But I am not sure it would be good for the game. In ZvT, Terran would be immune to enemy fungal + plague. Just spam AoE restore on your bio balls. It is not necessary, but remember that it needs a search (not all do), and that 125 energy (does remain with little energy). Why would P need another kind of Observer? The observer does the job just fine. If P needs more detection, I would prefer to make it via a spell like EMP and Fungal Growth.. Something that can be thrown on enemy cloaked units to reveal them.. But I still think P can live without such an ability too.. Why? Observer does that just fine. Plus that Scourge/Neural parasite/Lockdown interacts so well with Observers. Kill the Observer to prevent detection. Zerg and Terran have fixed tech branches that lead them straight to detectors Pool -> lair -> Overseer Barrack -> orbital commander (detector momentary) Barrack -> factory -> starport -> vessel Protoss tech branch is unique, is divided into 3 parts after Gateway -> Cybernetic Core: Stargate -> Fleet beacon Twilight Council -> Archive Templar Robotic Facility -> Robotic Bay Protoss for detection must take a different path Robotic Facility -> Observer Your object is to make compulsory the road detector, giving a search in the cybernetic core that allows the creation of observer in nexus: Gateway -> Cybernetic core -> Research observer -> Nexus What need all this? Allows players to choose their own strategy without any problems and switch tech. main gate units with support stargate units (Stargate -> Fleet beacon) mono gate unit (Twilight Council -> Archive Templar) main gate units with support robo units (Robotic Facility -> Robotic Bay) The way only robo you can guarantee "security". If the observer were to be established in nexus, would solve this problem, but I have made alternative proposals. All this is neither buff/nerf it, just balanced. do not know if I have explained myself badly. Thx for reading. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
La ragione per cui ho rimosso il Nullifier era dovuta alla mancanza di incantesimi significativi. AoE-Feedback è grande. L'incantesimo di partenza è stato strano. (Unità Realizzato in una zona non auto-attaccata) Stasi campo può partecipavano essere sul Arbiter. Attacco Nullifiers disattiva un'unità nemica .. bene .. per lo più il suo utile in pvt vs carri armati nemici, e Corsari già farlo - sollevare carri armati .. Non credo che questa capacità è sufficiente per riportare la Nullifier. Sia raramente utile. Se il Nullifier torna in gioco, deve avere una serie di due incantesimi davvero buona, a parte Feedback. Nullifier has 2 passive skill and 3 casting skill: Normal Attack (the unit targeted, loses the ability to attack): very nice ability, I challenge anyone to try to aim with 3 Nullifier 3 different tank/lurker :D Personal shield: Nullifier is covered by a shield that makes it benign in the eyes of the enemy (the unit does not auto attack). Normal attack requires a lot of micro, and I do not like to fight the opponent does not have to do anything (leave the tank immobility/a clic. Opponent should aim to Nullifier before they seek to their units. Feedback (regular feedback as you see fit, with splash, which is damage or not damage the main unit but not the other (leaving no energy) Phase shield + Show Spoiler + We have added a new area of effect ability for the oracle called Phase Shield. Targeted friendly units are shielded from harmful effects for 5 seconds. Fungal Growth, Corruption, Contaminate, Graviton Beam, Concussive Shells, Abduct, Revelation, Vortex, and 250mm Strike Cannons – Phase Shield removes the effect and prevents units from being affected. EMP – Phase Shield removes the anti-cloaking effect but not the damage dealt. Neural Parasite – Phase Shield will not remove this effect but it will prevent units from being affected." But with the following changes: -High cost, 125 energy. -Create a dome (small) and effect take place on the units within it. -Increased duration from 5 at 10 sec. -All ability you can launch (emp, snipe, scan, lockdown, fungal, storm, ecc...), Can Not Be casting inside the dome. -If other adverse effects have been launched before, are not cleared by this ability. This ability has risks, if you throw on your army, you can not launch your skill within it (what use is he?) If zerglings / lurker or Infestor enter in the phase shield, you can not launch storm / feedback on them. Pulsar beam Cost 50 energy Nullifier canalize a beam (up to 30 seconds) within a building stopping and preventing the construction of / research. After the canalize beam on construction, it remains inactive (construction) for double of the time that the beam came through him. The ability can be used up to 30 seconds and can be turned off before. If I hit a command center for 10 seconds, the command center will not be able to create units for 20 seconds. (Hatchery, no produces larvaes) Better skills for Nullifier do not come to mind. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Mostly minor modifications that I forgot to add yesterday. On December 12 2012 02:56 Zain3 wrote: such as? :D Don´t you love my great patch notes? :D EDIT: Ok ok this is what I changed. Firebats, Dark Templar, Baneling dmg to fit with the new lower life on units. I just reverted values to their old state. And for a bunch of other stuff. ^^ The most spectacular one is the Goliath / Viking. I made Goliath 15% more expensive, 15% more HP, 15% more dmg, 15% larger model etc.. I lowered Viking on ground DPS a little bit. It felt enough to seperate the two units. Goliath is the superior combat unit, compared to landed Vikings. It look larger, it feels different. Vikings on the other hand is more mobile in the air now. I also gave Goliath new upgrade that adds splash damage to air units. That splash is not enough to affect Carriers etc. So you single target large air units.. It only works vs smaller stuff. It increased Goliath starting range from 6 to 8 and removed the range upgrade that gives +3. If starting range 8 is way too good, I can add back the old range upgrade. Felt a bit much to have two upgrades for the Goliath thoough.. But this is a first version of the new Goliath. Lets see how it turns out. | ||
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Zain3
Sweden45 Posts
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Von
United States363 Posts
On December 11 2012 20:15 Kabel wrote: Quick reply about Thor/Goliath/Viking First of all, I think T must have a way to handle masses of air units. Since unlimited air units can be clumped up into a tiny blob, its important that the game has something that forces a seperation. Moving air units in a blob shall not always be the best formation. Thats why I am so eager to get splash into one of the anti air units for Terran. I think the most simple solution to the Viking/Thor/Goliath issue would be something like this: Vikings are SC2 Vikings. They deal high dmg vs single target armored units and they can transform to a weak ground attacker. I increase their move speed in air a little bit and give them "flying moving shot" to give more room for micro. Goliaths stats are increased by ca 50% - they cost 50% more, deal 50% more dmg, have 50% more HP and they can look a bit larger.. What this simply means is that 10 Goliaths in their BW-form would equal 5-6 Goliaths in the new form. Still 10 old goliaths is as good as 5-6 new goliaths = same total cost, same total dmg, same total HP. Goliaths can still deal good dmg vs armored air units and be decent vs smaller air units. (In BW, Wraiths and Goliaths both were good vs armored and decent vs small air units.) But Goliaths can ALSO upgrade a splash attack vs air. This splash upgrade would increase the Goliaths efficency vs: In TvT they can stop clusters of Vikings. In TvZ they can stop clusters of Mutalisks. In TvP they can stop clusters of Corsairs/Scouts (If they are added.) And they would still be good vs Carriers, Battlecruisers, Broold Lords etc.. But to fight large air units they do NOT need the splash upgrade. The upgrade is only if T want to handle masses of small air units. Since Goliaths now are a little bit larger and stronger/tougher, they will be different compared to the smaller and weaker landed Vikings. (Remember, normal Goliaths have same DPS, same HP, same range, same speed and same cost as landed Vikings.. ) In this way, no new abilities or anything must be invented. Both Goliaths and Vikings can be in the game without overlapping too much. The Thor can be scrapped. I like it. This feels like you found the sweet spot to the solution and you are on the right track. Nice one. | ||
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fietstas
Netherlands43 Posts
compared to the wraith: - the banshee does more damage - the banshee can't hit air compared to other cloaked units - can fly now in addition to this the starport has a wide variety units useful in every matchup, making it very easy to transition in/out of banshees. all this combined creates a unit that is - accesible - low risk - high reward Lurkers can be killed before burrow, mines can be killed as they pop up, dt's take much longer to get, ghosts can be walled in against, drops can be dealt with by army positioning alone. the banshee is the first possible threat which you absolutely need detection against to defend. don't say templar tech is a solution, it takes 2 storms to kill a banshee and you need to rush storm hard to get it out in time (and 2 templars with enough energy). to fix this i suggest making the banshee require an armory OR lowering the damage by 6, but increasing the damage upgrade for banshees by +3 per upgrade (so that they are pushed more to the late game) the reason an alternative fix is moving the observer to the nexus is that detection for protoss takes much longer to get reactively, the moment you see a banshee you can scan/morph an overlord (asuming you have lair/orbital with energy), with toss you need to first build a robo, then keep it alive while getting an observer. (turrets are the same for all races, but they can be killed while building) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
- Protoss "must" go robot tech vs T because of spider mines AND Banshee. Two deadly threats.. In BW P did not fear Banshee.. - Protoss can not scout early vs Z due to creep spread. Zerglings will catch probe super easy. P must go corsair or attack with push.. P play in the blind.. (Which was also the case in BW.. and in my opinion not super fun for P..) On the other hand, observers is a part of the robotic tech tree. IF I should move it, the robotic would feel very naked at this state.. Just to clearify: NO I do NOT plan to move Observer to Nexus right now! Its just a possible solution in the future, if P continues to feel locked vs T and locked vs early Z.. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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pileopoop
Canada317 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On December 12 2012 09:25 pileopoop wrote: Anyone want to play on NA? I've been waiting in starbow channel for 2 days. It is finals weeks and pretty much everyone is in college. Study study study. Planetside 2 also just came out x.x | ||
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
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TopRamen
United States96 Posts
But yeah, probably won't find alot of people on until next week | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On December 12 2012 06:22 Kabel wrote: I have looked at the possibility of moving the Observer to Nexus. It will require cybernetics core + an upgrade at cyber core that unlocks the Observer.. The two main reasons are: - Protoss "must" go robot tech vs T because of spider mines AND Banshee. Two deadly threats.. In BW P did not fear Banshee.. - Protoss can not scout early vs Z due to creep spread. Zerglings will catch probe super easy. P must go corsair or attack with push.. P play in the blind.. (Which was also the case in BW.. and in my opinion not super fun for P..) On the other hand, observers is a part of the robotic tech tree. IF I should move it, the robotic would feel very naked at this state.. Just to clearify: NO I do NOT plan to move Observer to Nexus right now! Its just a possible solution in the future, if P continues to feel locked vs T and locked vs early Z.. I totally agree on the very last paragraph. Banshees are not a huge threat in pvt in sc2. Are the timings any different in starbow? Can toss not get an observer out in time? We need to test this more before saying banshees are impossible to deal with. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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