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@kabel
The Vikings/Goliath relationship... Vikings just feel like Goliaths in the air. And on ground they also feel like Goliaths... Vikings deal splash dmg vs air but that is just confusing since they are anti-armored single targets in SC2.. and 6+ Vikings can one-shot a full control group of mutalisks with the splash upgrade.. Everyone launches the missiles and BAM!
I am tempted to bring back the Thor and normal Viking just because that works. Remove energy on Thor and the 250 mm gun thing. Tweak values.
Thor = counters many small air units. Can not be lift up by Corsairs
Vikings = deals with armored air units, like Carriers, Warp Prism, Swarm Guardian, Broodlord etc.
No more problems. No more headaches. No more crazy Viking changes.
If there is a unit that does not work is the thor, if in a few units too weak and too strong if massata elements. (hots tries to solve this problem with vipers and swarm host).Viking, I think it is better to change the name (reading viking people believe has the same task of viking of sc2, but it's the opposite). I would call valkyrie.
Remove Scout and Voidray. Too much trouble to get them to work.
If you really dry work on these 2 units, at least let the Scout who does his job. Counter armored air.
Scout work, just needed to Encourage the use in midgame, but this is an optional work.
Remove Nullifier.
Why? I do not understand, you do not like how it works? To me make decisions too hastily. Leave him and would do small changes little by little, and if it is unstable then the rimuoverei. I like this unit. It is not easy to aim different tanks with different Nullifier, and the task of the adversary is to aim at them and destroy them before they "nullify" your tank.
you do not like abilities? just ask for suggestions and something good comes out.
Fix Blink in the most simple way.
Halving the cooldown time and range. If this is not enough, remove the shields when Stalker blinkers only on cliff.
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New patch up at EU. Simple changes. No fancy stuff.
Most values for basic units reverted to their original state: 35 HP Zergling, 45 HP Marine, 160 HP Zealot, stronger stalkers etc.. To a simlar balance state the game was in earlier..
Scout/Voidray/Nullifier removed. I will add one of them if there is a need for any more P units.
The Nullifier was a bit weird with all the "benign" stuff, both since it was benign and its starting spell made units benign.. Units not being auto-attacked caused some frustrating moments and felt akward. (I know, I know.. you all told me. I just wanted to try it T_T)
So I will instead try to get the game down to its basics again. IF a good idea, or a need for the nullifier arises, it will be readded in some other form. The only good spell on it is Feedback. The others were not good solutions. And without being benign, it will not be easy to come close to enemy units to disable them..
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Hmmmm, I really like the idea of the nullifier. The only reason I have not used it more is because I am so new to starbow. I have to get into it more before I can explore new units. Can't we just leave it in for now, it does not remove any balance. Did the stalker get a buff?
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New patch up at EU. Simple changes. No fancy stuff.
Most values for basic units reverted to their original state: 35 HP Zergling, 45 HP Marine, 160 HP Zealot etc.. To a simlar balance state the game had earlier..
Scout/Voidray/Nullifier removed. I will add one of them if there is a need for any more P units.
Other information:
Remove Dragoon
Add Stalker
12 + 4 vs armored damage, cooldown 1,75
Speed reduce form 2,95 to 2,81 (feels)
Blink cooldown 25 sec
Arbiter
Vortex remove
Stasis field add
now target up to 8 units
Marine
combat shield remove
Medic
Energize remove
Ghost
Emp remove
Remove Goliath
Add Thor
no energy, no ability
Groud attack
30damage, attacks 2, range 5
Antiair attack
6 + 6 vs light damage, attacks 4, range 10
Viking as sc2
Vessel:
Turret remove
Add Emp
Nerve jammer not require research
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I will write it down soon, but the only thing I try is Viking + Thor again. Just because its a relationship that works well, My attempts at getting Vikings to feel good has just failed. Even though I like Goliaths
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Thors are poo. Valkyrie instead of viking would be much better.
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Yeah, I like goliaths and valkyries more. Vikings are an okay replacement for valkyries, but goliaths are considerably more fun to use than thors. Please keep the goliath over the thor.
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Thors are poo. Valkyrie instead of viking would be much better.
+1
Yeah, I like goliaths and valkyries more. Vikings are an okay replacement for valkyries, but goliaths are considerably more fun to use than thors. Please keep the goliath over the thor.
+1
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I agree. Goliaths are better than Thor. More micro potential.
BUT Thor and Vikings have unique roles and feel very different from each other. They overlap in no way. Vikings can be used to snipe strong enemy air units. In TvT the Vikings fight for air control vs enemy vessels and bansheess.. in TvP Vikings chase Warp Prism and Arbiters.. In TvZ Vikings can harass overlords now since they are faster in Starbow..
The problem is the Goliath/Viking relationship. When landed, Vikings are ALSO Goliaths. Same type of attack, dmg, HP, purpose vs enemy ground units.. And if Vikings are mini-valkyres they are only useful in TvZ. Vs cluster of air units.. not for anything else.. not vs enemy capital ships like carriers/BC, not good vs single target air units.. not good for harass.. nothing!
I threw in the Thor and normal Viking today just to try it. I would love to have the Goliath in the game, but the Viking MUST be fixed. And I have no good way of doing it.
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Best game in Starbow ever? Something for December to cast?
http://drop.sc/283432
TvP with the new patch. We do see some Vikings + Thors too..
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Yeay, a replay with me playing has actually made it onto TL... without the post containing the word "noob" :D
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Fun replay  .
When do we get the patch! Looks exciting !
As for BW values, keep in mind how damage vs protoss shields worked and how it works in SC2.. This has a huge effect on tank vs zealot/archon.
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I think valk gol would be a better combo. Early viking was only really needed for the void ray problem which is not taken care of.
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Might i make a suggestion for the ultralisk?
Allow it to Head bash Buildings and Massive units
Make the ability require a manual click and have it be on a 20 second cooldown.
so what do you think?
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What I think is why do we need to make the ultralisk stronger? Ultra's being too weak doesn't really seem to be a problem. They just got buffed recently too.
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Does goliath overlap with viking? A quick analysis by me.
What a heading! Anyway....these are my thoughts. Terran mech needs to deal with airplay. They have the marines, but they are made from the barracks and they do not counter all air effectivily as well. I am not a terran player but I think most terran players agree that the factory needs to produce a strong anti-air unit without the need to get a starport. For that we have goliath or thor. I can see the thor working better with the viking in that the roles not overlapping as much as goliath/viking, but I also feel there are some bad sides of the thor. It is slow, it is expencive and it is large. It feels like a much bigger investment than the goliath, and it's anti-air abilities are slighly worse (cost-wise). It is of course much better vs ground than goliath so it makes sense that it is worse than goliath vs air. Of caourse, this depends as thor deals splash vs air and so on. Let's say we keep the goliath in the game.
How does it overlap with viking? Well, they have similar attack vs air before the viking is upgraded, and a laded viking feels like a goliath (and has almost the same stats). But .... the viking is made from the starport! If terran wants a more mobile anti-air than the thor, they have to get the starport, perhaps several starports. In a TvP vs carriers in BW the usual response vs carriers was goliath. Starports were usually made already, but mostly for drops and you would need a lot of starports to make enough vikings (now) / wraiths (then) to deal with the carriers. Thors do not deal with carriers well (I feel) so now a lot of starports are forced instead of optional.
A landed viking is a goliath? No it is not! Because you rarely land a viking next to a goliath. You land vikings behind your oppondents mineral line or in other "smart" places. If you won an air battle and you have a lot of vikings left over and land them with your army, sure then they fee llike the goliath (and are kinda a waste), but they go from a "more-mobile-anti-air-than-goliath" to "can-harass-as-well-when-you-have-air-superiority".
I think the reader gets my point. I would like to keep goliath/viking, keep the spalsh dmg upgrade. Maybe do something to the ground attack of vikings so it can have a greater harass potential, I know stronger dmg vs building was suggested a while ago. Don't know if that is the way to go, but maybe a small tweak. I do not think vikings should primarly be a harass unit. It should primarly be a long-range, more mobile than goliath, anti-air with the potantial of splash, But it should be somewhat usefull if you beat your oppodents air (as opposed to the curropter which is pretty much useless after you have gained air-superiority).
Post long enough, peace out!
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Crazy idea- since helions can transform into firebats, why not vikings transform into goliaths?
Make their transformation a research.
Then you get vikings AND goliaths.
From a design perspective that solves your issues.
From a balance perspective it's just numbers that can be tweaked. Like they keep their AA range in boths forms but have different damage stats. Ground can be tweaked/nerfed as needed.
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On December 11 2012 06:56 Kabel wrote:Best game in Starbow ever? Something for December to cast? http://drop.sc/283432TvP with the new patch. We do see some Vikings + Thors too..
I think toss could have won the game with the first engagement with better zealot spread, stalkers tanking the first volley, cloning zealots onto tanks, reavers fully in the battle, storms on the tanks. As for terran keeping up with expos, I think as toss you can take expos quite a bit faster than that (or do a refined sick 3 base all in). You were staying on three bases for a long time will banking minerals. No disrespect to the toss player, you played well(actually that early game stalker harrass probably accounted for some of the mid game lead).
A casual suggestion for the viking.
Make it able to switch weapons (it can move while switching weapons) between it's air attack and a air to ground volley (no longer has a ground mode). Switching takes a little more than the amount of time to siege a tank.
The volley does (4+2 versus light)(x6), cooldown speed 3, range 6. The catch is that all the rockets can only fire on seperate targets.
6 vikings can dish out 360 damage in a volley killing about 8 probes. Cannons will reduce but not completely mitigate the volleys. With 20 second blink time reducing the risk of death by blink stalker, having a squad of these vikings, with vultures mining up the defense path, would be quite strong. Vikings can barely not chase down probes, however they can come in from a good angle to fire over the escape path.
So now, the viking can have 2 situational roles. Support (strong, but not dominating) fire against large zealots or zerglings, or against anti air clumps, or as a mid-late game harrass squad. The first part is really important: mech could really use this bridge-in support against mass zealot.
Does this overlap with the banshee? Yes, it does. There are a few differences, though. Vikings are really weak (fighting alone) in small numbers. They also are not so great at punching through ground armor. In a direct dps comparison, banshees are stronger, even when the viking is firing on 6 light targets.
I just like multishot haha,
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Quick reply about Thor/Goliath/Viking
First of all, I think T must have a way to handle masses of air units. Since unlimited air units can be clumped up into a tiny blob, its important that the game has something that forces a seperation. Moving air units in a blob shall not always be the best formation. Thats why I am so eager to get splash into one of the anti air units for Terran.
I think the most simple solution to the Viking/Thor/Goliath issue would be something like this:
Vikings are SC2 Vikings. They deal high dmg vs single target armored units and they can transform to a weak ground attacker. I increase their move speed in air a little bit and give them "flying moving shot" to give more room for micro.
Goliaths stats are increased by ca 50% - they cost 50% more, deal 50% more dmg, have 50% more HP and they can look a bit larger.. What this simply means is that 10 Goliaths in their BW-form would equal 5-6 Goliaths in the new form. Still 10 old goliaths is as good as 5-6 new goliaths = same total cost, same total dmg, same total HP.
Goliaths can still deal good dmg vs armored air units and be decent vs smaller air units. (In BW, Wraiths and Goliaths both were good vs armored and decent vs small air units.) But Goliaths can ALSO upgrade a splash attack vs air. This splash upgrade would increase the Goliaths efficency vs:
In TvT they can stop clusters of Vikings.
In TvZ they can stop clusters of Mutalisks.
In TvP they can stop clusters of Corsairs/Scouts (If they are added.)
And they would still be good vs Carriers, Battlecruisers, Broold Lords etc.. But to fight large air units they do NOT need the splash upgrade. The upgrade is only if T want to handle masses of small air units.
Since Goliaths now are a little bit larger and stronger/tougher, they will be different compared to the smaller and weaker landed Vikings. (Remember, normal Goliaths have same DPS, same HP, same range, same speed and same cost as landed Vikings.. )
In this way, no new abilities or anything must be invented. Both Goliaths and Vikings can be in the game without overlapping too much. The Thor can be scrapped.
@New patch to NA
When I get home today I will adjust some more values that I forgot yesterday. No weird things. Simple adjustments. Then I send it
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EPT
