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On October 19 2012 09:22 purakushi wrote:I also vote for increased minerals per base! The middle ground at 1250 sounds like a good start. I do not think the baneling is necessary, but I do feel like zerg should have a replacement unit. Maybe the baneling can be tweaked to do something else. Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 07:55 Laertes wrote: December I sent you starbow from EU, upload it on NA and let's get some games going. We all want to play the updated Starbow here on NA, but I feel like you should hold off from just grabbing it yourself from EU (even if you are not uploading it). Kabel is awesome and really nice, but I think you should wait for him to send it to decemberscalm himself. In previous posts (and PMs to me), he's stated his appreciation and reasoning that we respect that. Yes please. More minerals per base! I think 1500 is fine per patch. It will still reward expanding, but will also extend the games, so they aren't always so short
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On October 18 2012 21:29 Kabel wrote:Thanks for your help Laertes! Yes the Progress field was the villain in this drama. Well, I don´t think this MOD is more complicated to play than what SC2 is. Units or spells here are barely more complicated to use or understand than in the other Starcraft games. But I assume you are referring to the Zerg changes? Most of it is just ideas. Only a small portion of all ideas makes it into the game. The thing we are discussing now is how more depth and "fun" can be added to the Zerg race. Both how macro and micro can become more interesting for Zerg. Cause right now, with the weaker Inject, Zerg is not very challenging to play. Spam units, A-move with them. And with stronger Inject, Zerg becomes SC2 Zerg, which I don´t think is a good solution either, for various reasons : / I think i was a but shrouded by all the 'i have this idea' comments. Just try and keep it as simple as possible
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I'll keep my thoughts short, so please don't treat them as if I considered them imperative. They might also sound ignorant, in which case I plead for mercy and enlightenment.
On October 19 2012 14:47 SmileZerg wrote: Friendly fire on Banes is just way too problematic. It would theoretically force more micro from the Zerg player but in practice I don't think they would be playable at all. The only way it might work is if they did GREATLY reduced damage to friendlies (like 75% reduction) but that would need all kinds of playtesting.
Storms come to mind here, they also deal massive (or reduced?) friendly damage and it's something everyone grew accustomed to. It seems people require banes to mostly defend rather than aggress, so as long as FF doesn't apply to friendly buildings, I think it'd actually help the defender more than not.
On October 19 2012 13:29 SmileZerg wrote: I'm also aware that my idea for Dark Swarm on the Queen is very controversial, but Kabel was actually one of the strongest supporters for it awhile ago and we've discussed it privately before running into a couple issues that we were unable to solve as of yet.
Even if DS was a T3 researchable spell, the limitation on Queens' numbers as well as the pressure for larvae late game will render it more of a defensive spell than anything else, as well as sort of locking it to hatcheries. If you thought of pulling it lower down the tech tree, that would shut down any kind of semi-strong mid-game pressure, so personally, that's a no-no.
On October 19 2012 08:34 Freeze967 wrote: About minerals.
1.25k would be better then nothing, but I still feel like it punishes T/P more then it should. Generally now, both their main and natural run out while taking their third base. Suddenly they go from more econ to 1 base eco.
+ Show Spoiler + First, let's drop the idea of winning the game in the late-game with three bases. If you don't plan to defeat your opponent with a strong army in one or two devastating attacks, opting for a more conservative approach of gaining map control and whatnots, you will expand.
I haven't checked how much minerals there are right now per base, but the more there is, the easier time T/P have to sustain production from lower number of bases. And that, considering the nature of Zerg, is perfectly fine. Remember, that Zerg, at its foundations, is a race of cheap, expendable units, that are supposed to win by outnumbering, and ultimately by overpowering, the opponent. For that to happen, it needs hatcheries, and because of that, it needs to expand. The further away from the main base, the more difficult it becomes to defend all of them properly, especially considering that the units are not all that strong by themselves and static defense is just a mineral sink (it is a deterrent for some guerilla tactics, but if one is locked on taking the hatch down, one will apply more pressure than those spines can handle). More hatches mean more minerals, more numbers, etc. - scary? Not that much, when you realize that with such numbers, Zerg's units have reduced per-unit (fire)power, so all is well on the numbers front (all that is in theory - numbers will never cease to require tweaks in order to achieve perfection, as long as any other changes are applied to the game).
On the other hand, you have Protoss, with its very strong, high value units, and a turtling, hard-hitting Terran with just amazing map control techniques. Both of those races can reach their goals with less bases, even if its means they won't be able to rely on the sheer power of their armies and the need for some sneaky maneuvers will arise (drops, run-bys, leap frogging, etc.).
I do believe we have to drop that idea where one can just walk into late game with two, three bases and be happy. For that, we need better maps, where taking a third and fourth actually becomes a challenge for someone whose play revolves normally around two bases. It does sound counterintuitive for myself too, but it has to become a choice - either I secure my third, apply pressure and secure my third or just straight up kill him right now. That slows the transitions between the game phases, but promotes (passive) aggression that helps stabilize and move on. Where the issue lies I think is in the balance between the secure and the aggressive play - both should be available and possible to pull off for every race. Question is, does changing the number of minerals per base help reaching that state? Personally, I don't think it does. It rather encourages hanging onto less bases more. What should be looked into are ways to enable P and T to both apply limited pressure and secure their bases at the same time without compromising their current econ or bases or their late-game plans, which I find to be quite difficult at the current state.
Disclaimer: I am probably talking my ass off here as I haven't played enough games for those opinions to have any considerable merit for any sane person, so consider them suggestions. My limited experience based on the game theory studies can elude myself.
Spoiler'd due to the ignorant nature of the point presented. See below.
On a more personal matter, this. I'll also start working on some map designs (axial and rotational symmetry, center-based, more 4p than 2p; would love something like Destination to be ported over) and an external ladder client. Now, if anyone knows how to authenticate replays or players from replays, I'd highly appreciate if I could acquire such knowledge (I'm thinking of player accounts linked to SC2 accounts/BNet profiles and basing the scoring around uploading the replays, but am looking for a way to differentiate the replays from each other and assure no single replay would be recorded twice).
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Maverck has been working on an Iccup like ranking system, you should ask him about it. Destination was also ported in sc2bw.
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More idea spitballing:
Burrow Research at Hatch Tech, 100/100 and same BT.
Corsair damage change to retain DPS but with slower attack rate.
Inject as a timed buff that doubles larvae production for 36 seconds after the normal 'delay' instead of as instant larva.
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On October 19 2012 14:32 Danko__ wrote: Buff banes hps, aoe/damage, nerf damage vs buildings and make them deal friendly fire.
What a great idea! Instead of removing banes, make them a more special unit. One, that you have to be really carefull with, because they deal friendly fire. also, make let them explode, even when they are killed. that would mean, that you have to be really, really careful with banes. if you have the clumped and a marine kills one, the whole group would explode in a chain reaction: this would lead to the only used when they are really needed, can't just work as an army themselfs and have to be perfectly microed/split/used from different sides incomming. but as a reward, make them do a lot of damage if they hit. i think this would make the baneling that kind of unit, that is not really useable as a general main army unit, but that could in certain situations be that dramatic game chaning unit.
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John Madden, go watch more BW TvZ's and PvZ's 
The way Z is designed you simply have to hurt its eco. You either do damage or you don't to hinder Z, force larva, maybe kill a hatch or some drones. Its the simple nature of z that is eco's harder but that is its main strong point. Z should be threatening base trades, stalling, doing whatever it can to buy enough time. Right now they have so much money time is barely an issue. Capn was able to go pool first into zergling rush against my solid FE wall off, and he still came back with an economy that let him defend anything I sent at him just fine.
Your solution, make it viable to defend back at home. Good luck. You need some seriously good defense for this, planetary sort of thing for both P and T to kill mass ling and hydra (good luck with lurker), and a mobile defense vs Z. If you give this to P and T you are seriously screwing up PvT and TvT. It would be lame not to see marine/vulture flanks.
Problem: Z has too much money from the eco patch. That is all there is to it. I would hate to see Zerg units getting nerfed to all be weaker to compensate for this. New zergling is awesome though.
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Oh, I almost forgot: I've walked around SC2 map forums to look for some interesting designs a week ago and picked a few you might like. I'd love if you posted something about them in case you liked any of them/something about any of them, that'd aid me on my mapping endeavor. The key aspects I was looking for are the locations of thirds/fourths, expanding options, the difficulty of gaining map control, expanding patterns, height variety, siege tanks positions, drop possibilities and probably a few other tidbits I noticed.
(2) Dominion Warship by Fatam
+ Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Are you seeing those flanks!? Sure, the map splits in two very easily, but after the fourth base all the other bases are easily droppable/flankable. IF the WT stay along, the game would revolve around controlling the areas they give vision over. Overall, seems pretty cool.
(2) Neo Polaris by Mereel
+ Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Far away third and fourth, easy to secure natural, height variety, lots of void air space.
(2) Neo Destination by Mereel
+ Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Destination! I know it's not a valid argument, but Destination!
(2) ESV Equinox by Monitor
+ Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Third is close and on high ground, but is open and siegeable until you take your natural fourth, which in return is easily flankable. Cons?: It's prone to circular and limited expanding: once you get your five bases, you're done.
(4) Titanis by lefix
+ Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Big, close third/fourth, center-based. Cons?: Metalopolis?
(4)ESV Borealis by neobowman
+ Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: It's humongous; big main base, easy natural, third and fourth are open and far away, there are multiple expanding options, promotes map control.
(4) Haven Ridge by Jacky
+ Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Now this layout is funky. FEs are out of option, due to the lack of any wall-in possibilities, I wonder if that could ever work.
(8) Big Game Hu-- *cough* Bel'shir Battlefield by Jacky
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On October 19 2012 23:03 Don Pedro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 14:32 Danko__ wrote: Buff banes hps, aoe/damage, nerf damage vs buildings and make them deal friendly fire. What a great idea! Instead of removing banes, make them a more special unit. One, that you have to be really carefull with, because they deal friendly fire. also, make let them explode, even when they are killed. that would mean, that you have to be really, really careful with banes. if you have the clumped and a marine kills one, the whole group would explode in a chain reaction: this would lead to the only used when they are really needed, can't just work as an army themselfs and have to be perfectly microed/split/used from different sides incomming. but as a reward, make them do a lot of damage if they hit. i think this would make the baneling that kind of unit, that is not really useable as a general main army unit, but that could in certain situations be that dramatic game chaning unit. How would they even be usable then? Either you have them in small enough numbers and they are easily target fired (and still a bitch to control) or you have enough and they kill your whole army
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@Laertes/UloseTheGame
I do not usually call people out like this, but I noticed you uploaded the latest version of Starbow on NA yourself. Looks like you really could not wait, huh? =\ sigh...
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On October 20 2012 00:24 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 23:03 Don Pedro wrote:On October 19 2012 14:32 Danko__ wrote: Buff banes hps, aoe/damage, nerf damage vs buildings and make them deal friendly fire. What a great idea! Instead of removing banes, make them a more special unit. One, that you have to be really carefull with, because they deal friendly fire. also, make let them explode, even when they are killed. that would mean, that you have to be really, really careful with banes. if you have the clumped and a marine kills one, the whole group would explode in a chain reaction: this would lead to the only used when they are really needed, can't just work as an army themselfs and have to be perfectly microed/split/used from different sides incomming. but as a reward, make them do a lot of damage if they hit. i think this would make the baneling that kind of unit, that is not really useable as a general main army unit, but that could in certain situations be that dramatic game chaning unit. How would they even be usable then? Either you have them in small enough numbers and they are easily target fired (and still a bitch to control) or you have enough and they kill your whole army
That's why he said you would have to be careful with them. You wouldn't be able to keep them with your army, they would rather be used to bust defenses or for bane drops. Massing them with zerglings as it was the case in SC2 is kinda silly already.
On October 19 2012 23:22 decemberscalm wrote: Problem: Z has too much money from the eco patch. That is all there is to it. I would hate to see Zerg units getting nerfed to all be weaker to compensate for this. New zergling is awesome though.
Oh, so the eco patch already increased the minerals per base. Now, that changes everything, lol. I'm looking forward to the rest of this discussion in this case, I can't really figure out any viable way to compensate for this at the moment, aside from somehow modifying drones/larva mechanics.
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Short summary to the best of my memory: If you got stuck on less bases you were dead in the water early on. Not really given a chance to get a third. Amount of min patches at expansions went from 6 to 8. Amount mined per trip went from 7 to 8 (or 6 to 7, but pretty sure its at 8 now). Z larva rate increased slightly too? Before it simply didn't have larva so you sunk in way too much into macro's and it wasn't fun to play.
This makes TvT, PvP, TvP sooooooo much better. I love the patch. Z has exponential eco growth when its eco gets increased. Hence, the too much stuff for Z effect. Possible solutions presented from various people: reduce P and T worker build time or vice versa. Change either hatch costs, or reduce p and t base costs.
Reducing larva count isn't the way to go in my oppinnion, z floating tons of money just isn't pretty or fun.
Another option is make drones mine less minerals per worker, but a single digit change for that has huge ramifications and isn't a good way to fine tune balance.
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I wont to ask is anybody streaming or is there going to be somebody that can stream all the time (stream chanals) so we can watch game every day on stream ? or it will be in future somebody that can do that... i am bored of Hots Wol and all that sh ..it simply this game is much better and i would like to watch ...(cant play i have laptop at this town that isnt good for games..) 
it would be cool that ppl add on mane page stream chanals that everybody can watch any day... Hope somebody answer.. Thx for reading ..
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On October 20 2012 01:39 bole wrote:I wont to ask is anybody streaming or is there going to be somebody that can stream all the time (stream chanals) so we can watch game every day on stream ? or it will be in future somebody that can do that... i am bored of Hots Wol and all that sh ..it simply this game is much better and i would like to watch ...(cant play i have laptop at this town that isnt good for games..)  it would be cool that ppl add on mane page stream chanals that everybody can watch any day... Hope somebody answer.. Thx for reading .. 
I'll be streaming some games, both mine and others, at http://twitch.tv/yck7 for a while. It's nothing permanent, as it adds a horrible delay to all the actions I do (imagine reactionary micro with half a second delay to commands), but I'm going to fiddle with quality settings in order to make it playable enough. In case of a failure, I'll only stream sometimes to cast games.
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I think most recent patch with worker BT change to 20 from 22 wont change much. Right now terran/toss have problems with zerg not cause they grow too slow. Zerg grows too fast. This change will only speed up saturation for each race, witchout slowing zerg and will keep other 2 races still at 2 bases just with earlier saturation. I think +1/-1 for larvae spawn rate/worker bt or just +2 for larvae spawn rate would be better solution.
About mineral patches. Some time ago i suggested Gossen to change half of patches to 1500 (so each base would have 4x 1000 and 4x 1500 and main 4/5x 1000 +4/5x 1500). This way each base would provide income for longer and with 2 stepps of efficency (so it wouldnt cut your income suddenly, but you would have time, last warning, before being forced to take more bases). Imho that wouldnt be then so easy to starve toss/terran for zerg. One problem Gossen noticed was that on each map this has to be done manually :/. What do you think about that?
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On October 20 2012 02:18 Danko__ wrote: About mineral patches. Some time ago i suggested Gossen to change half of patches to 1500 (so each base would have 4x 1000 and 4x 1500 and main 4/5x 1000 +4/5x 1500). This way each base would provide income for longer and with 2 stepps of efficency (so it wouldnt cut your income suddenly, but you would have time, last warning, before being forced to take more bases). Great idea.
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I'll be streaming some games, both mine and others, at http://twitch.tv/yck7 for a while. It's nothing permanent, as it adds a horrible delay to all the actions I do (imagine reactionary micro with half a second delay to commands), but I'm going to fiddle with quality settings in order to make it playable enough. In case of a failure, I'll only stream sometimes to cast games.
i watched today.. good job at casting but i would like for example every day cast... i hope you do that.. yes it lags and staff but u can save it ... After save i could set it to load stream and watch.. as i did.. :D
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On October 20 2012 00:04 JohnMadden wrote:Oh, I almost forgot: I've walked around SC2 map forums to look for some interesting designs a week ago and picked a few you might like. I'd love if you posted something about them in case you liked any of them/something about any of them, that'd aid me on my mapping endeavor. The key aspects I was looking for are the locations of thirds/fourths, expanding options, the difficulty of gaining map control, expanding patterns, height variety, siege tanks positions, drop possibilities and probably a few other tidbits I noticed. (2) Dominion Warship by Fatam + Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Are you seeing those flanks!? Sure, the map splits in two very easily, but after the fourth base all the other bases are easily droppable/flankable. IF the WT stay along, the game would revolve around controlling the areas they give vision over. Overall, seems pretty cool. (2) Neo Polaris by Mereel + Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Far away third and fourth, easy to secure natural, height variety, lots of void air space. (2) Neo Destination by Mereel + Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Destination! I know it's not a valid argument, but Destination! (2) ESV Equinox by Monitor + Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Third is close and on high ground, but is open and siegeable until you take your natural fourth, which in return is easily flankable. Cons?: It's prone to circular and limited expanding: once you get your five bases, you're done. (4) Titanis by lefix + Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Big, close third/fourth, center-based. Cons?: Metalopolis? (4)ESV Borealis by neobowman + Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: It's humongous; big main base, easy natural, third and fourth are open and far away, there are multiple expanding options, promotes map control. (4) Haven Ridge by Jacky + Show Spoiler +Why exactly that?: Now this layout is funky. FEs are out of option, due to the lack of any wall-in possibilities, I wonder if that could ever work. (8) Big Game Hu-- *cough* Bel'shir Battlefield by Jacky
Your post for some reason reminded me of Burning Altar, a map from last tlmc. I think it might also fit the need for maps with larger distances between bases
(4) Burning Altar by Samro + Show Spoiler +
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Apparently nobody knows I'm streaming, so here it goes: twitch.tv/yck7 This is the last time, promise. I'll also be posting whenever I'll be about to start streaming on my twitter, @freshmeattt
Also, this:
is the shit.
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