Equinox will be the end my streak of making two player maps. It has five bases, but one only has 5 minerals. Most importantly, a lowground fifth in the corner can be defended easily from the highground and only has one small ramp entrance.
Updated 1/15/12
Players can choose between taking a 5-min/2-gas third that is closer to their natural and subsequently closer to the opponent, or the full base third which is slightly farther from the natural but is farther from the opponent. Ideally this trade-off can mean most games Protoss and Zerg will take the 5-min/2-gas third first, but Terran will spread out to the lowground third.
Check me out on twitter @ESVmonitor if you want to keep up to date with SC2 mapmaking! ESV Equinox is published on the NA server under "Equinox by monitor" currently. Feedback is greatly appreciated as always.
I really like the map. It strikes me as being an improvement upon daybreak's concept. Once players take either of the 3rd bases the map's harass potential increases greatly (in a good way), whereas I feel daybreak can feel a little stagnant. The 5th bases are very interesting, I like them a lot. They're a lot more interesting this way than if there was simply another ramp from the highground near the 3rd. My biggest worry is the backdoor in the nats, but that should be manageable since the nat choke itself isn't that big. I like the map's rock-use. I think this is the right way to use rocks: to make the map's middle more dynamic in a subtle manner.
Haha, this reminds me a lot of various stages of my last stand map... just better of course.
One question, though: The main (not the actual base but the area) is going to be partly siegable by ground once a player has vision. Is this a bad thing? I assume that you have at least somewhat tested it, and it's not a problem, but I just want to hear your opinions on it I guess. As a zerg player I would just be scared of a terran dropping marines in my main with a tank back on the other side of the chasm, but the medivac will be giving vision so it will make killing the marines exceedingly difficult. I may be exaggerating the tank's range in my head, but it seems like the range could go almost to the gas geysers. Losing gas geysers is a struggle for zerg, especially if the terran hits a neat little timing a attack, similar to the ones used on tal'darim except at the natural.
On January 14 2012 11:50 Nightmarjoo wrote: Nightmarjoo seal of approval.
I really like the map. It strikes me as being an improvement upon daybreak's concept. Once players take either of the 3rd bases the map's harass potential increases greatly (in a good way), whereas I feel daybreak can feel a little stagnant. The 5th bases are very interesting, I like them a lot. They're a lot more interesting this way than if there was simply another ramp from the highground near the 3rd. My biggest worry is the backdoor in the nats, but that should be manageable since the nat choke itself isn't that big. I like the map's rock-use. I think this is the right way to use rocks: to make the map's middle more dynamic in a subtle manner.
Thank you very much!!
On January 14 2012 13:16 RumbleBadger wrote: Haha, this reminds me a lot of various stages of my last stand map... just better of course.
One question, though: The main (not the actual base but the area) is going to be partly siegable by ground once a player has vision. Is this a bad thing? I assume that you have at least somewhat tested it, and it's not a problem, but I just want to hear your opinions on it I guess. As a zerg player I would just be scared of a terran dropping marines in my main with a tank back on the other side of the chasm, but the medivac will be giving vision so it will make killing the marines exceedingly difficult. I may be exaggerating the tank's range in my head, but it seems like the range could go almost to the gas geysers. Losing gas geysers is a struggle for zerg, especially if the terran hits a neat little timing a attack, similar to the ones used on tal'darim except at the natural.
During the beta and first few months of SC2 release, sieging the main was a massive issue especially in TvT (unbreakable positions where you could "ferry" marines and tanks into the main). Luckily now though, it isn't really a big concern when balancing a map because TvT has evolved and TvP doesn't involve mech very often. TvZ doesn't matter because zerg buildings can all be out range- and the hatchery/gas/minerals aren't in range. Often a tank push in TvZ can be annoying to deal with, but considering the lowground is pretty open, Zerg can usually stop it when playing correctly.
On January 14 2012 13:16 RumbleBadger wrote: Haha, this reminds me a lot of various stages of my last stand map... just better of course.
One question, though: The main (not the actual base but the area) is going to be partly siegable by ground once a player has vision. Is this a bad thing? I assume that you have at least somewhat tested it, and it's not a problem, but I just want to hear your opinions on it I guess. As a zerg player I would just be scared of a terran dropping marines in my main with a tank back on the other side of the chasm, but the medivac will be giving vision so it will make killing the marines exceedingly difficult. I may be exaggerating the tank's range in my head, but it seems like the range could go almost to the gas geysers. Losing gas geysers is a struggle for zerg, especially if the terran hits a neat little timing a attack, similar to the ones used on tal'darim except at the natural.
During the beta and first few months of SC2 release, sieging the main was a massive issue especially in TvT (unbreakable positions where you could "ferry" marines and tanks into the main). Luckily now though, it isn't really a big concern when balancing a map because TvT has evolved and TvP doesn't involve mech very often. TvZ doesn't matter because zerg buildings can all be out range- and the hatchery/gas/minerals aren't in range. Often a tank push in TvZ can be annoying to deal with, but considering the lowground is pretty open, Zerg can usually stop it when playing correctly.
Ok, that's kinda what I figured... other than that my only qualm (for zerg again) is that a late game zerg needs 6 gases, and after the main and natural mine out... only 5 gases (*gasp*). So it kinda puts zerg on a timer, in that they can't really win an overly long game, which is annoying as zergs tend to do best in longer games.
Overall, I do have to say the map looks great. Very little I have to complain about, and it's absolutely beautiful. Nice work.
Have yet to play on it but I fear the 3rd might be a little tough for protoss to grab in PvZ thus resulting in mainly 2 base all-ins. Protoss can't take the forward base with 1 gas & 6 minerals because they need gas badly and that base is super risky, it's much more of a terran with pfort or zerg base.
I think I'd also like the 5th to have another way to get to it. Currently collosus or tanks could siege on the highground where the ground decal is and easily take out a fifth while being in a fortified position to take the full base 3rd as well.
I do like how the first 4 bases are setup though, with the only problem being protoss grabbing that full 3rd base could be extremely difficult.
On January 14 2012 13:16 RumbleBadger wrote: Haha, this reminds me a lot of various stages of my last stand map... just better of course.
One question, though: The main (not the actual base but the area) is going to be partly siegable by ground once a player has vision. Is this a bad thing? I assume that you have at least somewhat tested it, and it's not a problem, but I just want to hear your opinions on it I guess. As a zerg player I would just be scared of a terran dropping marines in my main with a tank back on the other side of the chasm, but the medivac will be giving vision so it will make killing the marines exceedingly difficult. I may be exaggerating the tank's range in my head, but it seems like the range could go almost to the gas geysers. Losing gas geysers is a struggle for zerg, especially if the terran hits a neat little timing a attack, similar to the ones used on tal'darim except at the natural.
During the beta and first few months of SC2 release, sieging the main was a massive issue especially in TvT (unbreakable positions where you could "ferry" marines and tanks into the main). Luckily now though, it isn't really a big concern when balancing a map because TvT has evolved and TvP doesn't involve mech very often. TvZ doesn't matter because zerg buildings can all be out range- and the hatchery/gas/minerals aren't in range. Often a tank push in TvZ can be annoying to deal with, but considering the lowground is pretty open, Zerg can usually stop it when playing correctly.
Ok, that's kinda what I figured... other than that my only qualm (for zerg again) is that a late game zerg needs 6 gases, and after the main and natural mine out... only 5 gases (*gasp*). So it kinda puts zerg on a timer, in that they can't really win an overly long game, which is annoying as zergs tend to do best in longer games.
Overall, I do have to say the map looks great. Very little I have to complain about, and it's absolutely beautiful. Nice work.
Thank you!
I've actually been talking to Plexa about making the forward third (1gas) have 2 gas and 4 minerals, which would make it more valuable for Protoss and Zerg, but not as powerful for Terran to turtle on. It'd also give 6 gas to lategame Zerg.
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On January 14 2012 13:45 SidianTheBard wrote: Have yet to play on it but I fear the 3rd might be a little tough for protoss to grab in PvZ thus resulting in mainly 2 base all-ins. Protoss can't take the forward base with 1 gas & 6 minerals because they need gas badly and that base is super risky, it's much more of a terran with pfort or zerg base.
I think I'd also like the 5th to have another way to get to it. Currently collosus or tanks could siege on the highground where the ground decal is and easily take out a fifth while being in a fortified position to take the full base 3rd as well.
I do like how the first 4 bases are setup though, with the only problem being protoss grabbing that full 3rd base could be extremely difficult.
I too think taking a third could be difficult in PvZ, another reason why making the forward expansion 2g4m could be a good idea.
Right now I like the way the fifth is. It is very easy to defend from the highground (as test games have proved that tanks,blink stalkers, colossi all work); if the opponent is out of position though, it's easy to runby, drop, or attack it from the highground. Securing the expansion usually means keeping units in the open highground which is vulnerable to large scale fights.
Depending on your taste for avant-garde, you could also do some very unconventional things to make the forward 3rd more friendly for protoss:
2g with one gas at half the normal amount (players won't like this)
high yield 1g
2g with one blocked by rocks
2g arranged so that the player can distance mine and have normal mineral mining or vice versa
However, I don't think the current 2g 3rd is that hard for protoss. You can wall your front and move the "new front" to your 3rd, using forcefield to stay super safe. Mutas are the scariest thing, but that's a game of cannons anyway to take a 3rd on most maps, and the minerals lines main/nat/lower3rd are very defendable, especially with good obs usage.
The only thing I don't like about this map is the preponderance of hallways, but it's not a great dislike and I don't think it's a valid criticism either, just a gut reaction to homogeneity.
Really cool map, one of your most interesting ones so far!
All the features just work out cool and make for a nice layout together. The way movement and variety in chokes works is very nice and I like how that third and fifth are kinda out of position. This will probably promote a lot of interesting small army movement and harrass! Hope to see this map in Korean Weekly some day ; )
On January 14 2012 18:44 EatThePath wrote: Depending on your taste for avant-garde, you could also do some very unconventional things to make the forward 3rd more friendly for protoss:
2g with one gas at half the normal amount (players won't like this)
high yield 1g
2g with one blocked by rocks
2g arranged so that the player can distance mine and have normal mineral mining or vice versa
However, I don't think the current 2g 3rd is that hard for protoss. You can wall your front and move the "new front" to your 3rd, using forcefield to stay super safe. Mutas are the scariest thing, but that's a game of cannons anyway to take a 3rd on most maps, and the minerals lines main/nat/lower3rd are very defendable, especially with good obs usage.
The only thing I don't like about this map is the preponderance of hallways, but it's not a great dislike and I don't think it's a valid criticism either, just a gut reaction to homogeneity.
Really nice intentional design, monitor.
Those are some interesting ideas. I'll make a decision about the third and put out an update.
On January 15 2012 01:04 Ragoo wrote: Really cool map, one of your most interesting ones so far!
All the features just work out cool and make for a nice layout together. The way movement and variety in chokes works is very nice and I like how that third and fifth are kinda out of position. This will probably promote a lot of interesting small army movement and harrass! Hope to see this map in Korean Weekly some day ; )
On January 15 2012 05:36 Barrin wrote: wow lol im suddenly eager to play this map with you monitor :DD
I think I saw a very early version? It's come so far...
This is the map I will now think of when I think of a map without linear pathing; I know you really hate linear pathing lool gj!!!
Everything seems exceptionally well sized as usual.
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Something to keep in mind for future maps (this map is fine dun worry): in terms of making the pathing interesting, I feel like you spent less time on the center of the map than you did manipulating base vulnerabilities. The simplest way I can put it is that it is nice to focus army positioning stuff in the center of the map (in an interesting way)... Map Control. It doesn't seem very easy at all to get map control on this map (a problem on many maps). Of course it shouldn't be too easy, but here it seems downright hard.
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Have you considered repositioning the gas at the main to be less exposed from air coming from enemy's side of the map? I actually think it's fine the way it is but it seems like one of the few factors left to consider.
Great to hear Test games have played pretty well too.
On January 15 2012 05:43 WniO wrote: textures are too similar / not enough seperation to tell what level a player is on.
They are pretty similar at any point on the map, but I think in-game they look like I wanted them to and it isn't too confusing.
I love this. I was sad about old Hysteria not getting involved in anything big, but this map takes aspects of both Hysteria and Daybreak - very tasty stuff.
On January 15 2012 07:37 LunaSaint wrote: I love this. I was sad about old Hysteria not getting involved in anything big, but this map takes aspects of both Hysteria and Daybreak - very tasty stuff.
Thank you!!
OP Updated -Third changed to 2 gas, 5 minerals -Changed brick texture
On January 15 2012 07:37 LunaSaint wrote: I love this. I was sad about old Hysteria not getting involved in anything big, but this map takes aspects of both Hysteria and Daybreak - very tasty stuff.
Someone remembers Hysteria! Mission accomplished.
I really love this map Monitor (and am a bit jealous, I admit). LunaSaint hit the nail on the head by comparing it with Hysteria and Daybreak. The main nat and third set up is very similar to Daybreak, and the overall concept is similar to Hysteria.
One thing that I found was interesting was that you opted for a second geyser at the forward third instead of a high yield one. Is that for a specific reason?
Another feature that I found interesting was that the outside paths are shorter than the middle one (in the sense they lead to high ground faster). They can also be spotted it seems from the mains. So the middle path acts as the best path in the sense that it is the widest and allows better concaves and can go unspotted.
I had a plan for what I was going to say about this map but as I am sitting down here and typing this up, I can't really think of what I want to say about it that you don't know. Anyway, good luck balancing this, I hope it fares better than Hysteria!
I would like to see the mineral line of the front third pushed back a bit so units can harrass it from the lowground behind it (similar to Xel'Naga Caverns). I think that would be a lot of fun and encourage harrass more and makes it necessary to control the backdoor somehow even if you take the front third, while still not being broken cos you obviously need vision to do so.
On January 15 2012 07:36 monitor wrote: They are pretty similar at any point on the map, but I think in-game they look like I wanted them to and it isn't too confusing.
well, lets say a match is being streamed on this map... you want to make sure the audience knows where they are without glancing back and forth to the tiny mini map, so even if its nicely textured it looks to similar to the other areas. now maybe just adding terrain specific doodads or like things that when a person sees that area on stream, says "oh hey yeah thats the area outside the third main for the bottom player."
On January 15 2012 07:36 monitor wrote: They are pretty similar at any point on the map, but I think in-game they look like I wanted them to and it isn't too confusing.
well, lets say a match is being streamed on this map... you want to make sure the audience knows where they are without glancing back and forth to the tiny mini map, so even if its nicely textured it looks to similar to the other areas. now maybe just adding terrain specific doodads or like things that when a person sees that area on stream, says "oh hey yeah thats the area outside the third main for the bottom player."
True. However every screen on the map has some distinct feature (rocks, low minerals, manmade textures) that make it alright. I did make another update though, with a border now.
[edit] I will implement ragoo's suggestion soon too.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JBE6C.jpg)
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