EPT[A] Starbow - Page 118
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
Today is a day where everyone on NA wants to try out the new Zerglings (myself especially included) but we cannot, because decemberscalm hasn't received the new maps (and isn't currently modifying things to be the same  ).How many bags of Swedish Fish would we need to send to you for you to upload the maps to some third-party source where anyone can DL them (as soon as you complete the version that you upload) like mediafire or something? | ||
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CapnAmerica
United States508 Posts
On October 19 2012 07:50 Laertes wrote: Don't YET Freeze. First we have to make sure 4x FE doesn't work versus zerg, then we can balance a little more. It will not work, 3x might though on some maps where you can wall chokes efficiently. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On October 19 2012 07:47 Freeze967 wrote: @ Kabel Since I believe it really will help the other races (And it was in both SC:BW and SC2, so something must have been right), can we just please try 1.5k minerals? I think that will really help T/P vs Z. Especially combined with a removed baneling, it will really help out. I wouldn't mind seeing more minerals per patch again myself, but maybe we could try a middle ground and do 1.25k? I really want to know your reasoning on asking for the Baneling to be removed though. Zerg is the race that needs more units and strategies, not less. Besides, they just got nerfed, and they're important for ZvZ. What's the problem exactly? | ||
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
On October 19 2012 07:57 SmileZerg wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing more minerals per patch again myself, but maybe we could try a middle ground and do 1.25k? I really want to know your reasoning on asking for the Baneling to be removed though. Zerg is the race that needs more units and strategies, not less. Besides, they just got nerfed, and they're important for ZvZ. What's the problem exactly? I have posted it multiple times before, don't want to rewrite ;; Edit: Whatever, I have time. ZvZ, they just increase muta-ling. Muta-ling is a fine strategy, but it should favor the player with the better APM and skill. If you are willing to devote lings and mutas to counter attacking and harass, it will work. Banelings work great against hydras so they are not "needed". For early game pressure, just make lings for running past things. Even in regular SC2 you don't need banelings to do early game aggression. As I posted very recently, zerg has the most AoE units. They are also the only race to have a "major" (one that will still be used at all points in the game) AoE unit at t1 tech. I consider baneling to be late t1, like 1.5. They are similar to a marauder. Without the baneling, zerg would have to play much more passive. They would have to make sure they have the forces to defend each base because otherwise a early game Medic Marine Firebat force could potentially ruin their day. This means more resources required to defend each base. If that happens then you see a slowing of mass amounts of zerg expo, and Terran can expo faster if the zerg does mass expo. About concerns about not having enough AoE. Zerg literally took all of it's AoE from brood war AND all of their AoE from SC2. They have the most AoE in the game. It would be fine if they just had to wait for lurker for AoE. About minerals. 1.25k would be better then nothing, but I still feel like it punishes T/P more then it should. Generally now, both their main and natural run out while taking their third base. Suddenly they go from more econ to 1 base eco. Edit 2: Found a good old post about it. @Kabel about micro In Starcraft Two, each race has 2 main AoE units/spells, and one minor one. For zerg, there is the Baneling and Fungal Growth. For Protoss there is Psionic Storm, and Collosus. For Terran there is the Siege Tank and Hunter Seeker Missile. Those are the main AoE. The minor ones are Hellion, Ultralisk, and Archon. These deal not as much splash, as the hellion is just a straight line, Ultralisk is just a tiny little area around it, and Archon is the same way. In Starbow it's a bit different. Zerg has the Baneling, Lurker, Infestor (kind of, as it's pretty useless now that it doesn't deal damage.) and Swarm Host (kind of, as it is a buff not a damage to the enemy units). Minor: Ultralisk Terran has the Mine, Siege tank, Science Vessel (sort of, as it doesn't do damage just renders the enemy unable to attack) Minor: Firebat Protoss has Storm, Maelstorm (kind of, as it just freeze's them). Minor: Archon Zerg by far has the most AoE units. The main difference between the races is that all of their major AoE isn't available till around t2. Zerg is the earliest big AoE unit by far. Siege tank is like mid t2, storm is late t2, infestor is realistically mid t2. The earliest AoE is the firebat at late t1, but this is alright because it is a minor AoE. While this does lead to some issues, it really only affects vs TvZ. Which is good because it forces the zerg to get 1-2 spines at every base they seriously want to defend, or they have to get a large amount of ling/hydra. Either way can be a win for Terran. | ||
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
I do not think the baneling is necessary, but I do feel like zerg should have a replacement unit. Maybe the baneling can be tweaked to do something else. On October 19 2012 07:55 Laertes wrote: December I sent you starbow from EU, upload it on NA and let's get some games going. We all want to play the updated Starbow here on NA, but I feel like you should hold off from just grabbing it yourself from EU (even if you are not uploading it). Kabel is awesome and really nice, but I think you should wait for him to send it to decemberscalm himself. In previous posts (and PMs to me), he's stated his appreciation and reasoning that we respect that. | ||
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:22 purakushi wrote: I also vote for increased minerals per base! The middle ground at 1250 sounds like a good start. I do not think the baneling is necessary, but I do feel like zerg should have a replacement unit. Maybe the baneling can be tweaked to do something else. Not to be rude sounding. But why? Why would they need a replacement unit while they still have the lurker and all of their other AoE? | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
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purakushi
United States3301 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:39 Freeze967 wrote: Not to be rude sounding. But why? Why would they need a replacement unit while they still have the lurker and all of their other AoE? Well, maybe not necessarily another AoE unit, but another unit to make the zerg gameplay more dynamic. I love BW, and SC2 has some good things about it, but it could be more fun with a new unit to figure out. I know we all want the units in Starbow to be useful (and honestly I'm not good at making up new units) but just a thought. Really, we will just have to see how the gameplay is for/against zerg in this latest patch. On October 19 2012 09:44 Laertes wrote: Do you guys know what time it is on EU? 12:00 PM on a school night. Europe is dead. I know, there's one person afk in channel Starbow. I NEED to test this 4 base macro build and unless its uploaded tonight more changes will be made without the approval of NA. Yes, we realise no one is probably on at this time on EU (and I think you mean AM); however, that does not mean you should take the liberty to grab it from EU and tell someone to upload it (especially when the creator of the mod told us he'd appreciate it if we left distribution up to him). Kabel and decemberscalm will upload it when they can. Sorry if that sounds critical, but I am just trying to get that point across. Also, I think you're taking the situation a bit too far. I know your intentions are for the betterment of Starbow, but you can just test your build tomorrow. It is not the end of the world if NA is a day behind. Changes aren't made that quickly, anyway, and Kabel is perfectly fair about how he changes things. | ||
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Your AoE breakdown for each of the races is kind of completely whacked, man. Let me take a shot at this:Terran Tier 1: Firebat Tier 2: Siege Tank, Spider Mine, Nuke (admittedly rarely used), EMP (Protoss only) Tier 3: Irradiate, Viking (air only) Zerg Tier 1: Baneling Tier 2: Lurker, Mutalisk Bounce (barely) Tier 3: Ultralisk, Plague Fungal no longer exists, it is really Ensnare now. I'm not counting support spells that don't deal damage towards this. Protoss Tier 1: None Tier 2: Corsair (air only) Tier 3: Psi Storm, Archon, Reaver, Feedback I'm not seeing how Zerg is coming out ahead here. Terran clearly has the most available and powerful AoE in the early to midgame, and Protoss arguably has the deadliest in the later stages. Banelings are one-shot, melee range suicide units that force excellent micro interactions in engagements with Marine splitting/stim kiting, Medic Shields, Firebat positioning, sacrificing lone Zerglings, Blink Stalker micro and Overlord Drops. The only concern is that they might be too fast. The general rule for powerful AoE units is that they are less mobile to compensate, i.e. Lurker burrow, Siege Tanks, slow Reavers requiring Warp Prism micro, slow Templar etc. But again keep in mind that Banelings are basically melee range, like Firebats, which are the other exception to the rule. I've already suggested we move Centrifugal Hooks research to Hive Tech so that Lurkers will be the more dominant AoE unit in the midgame. Also, Baneling speed on creep (not to mention damage) was just nerfed with the latest patch (down from 3.25 to 3 unless the base movement speed isn't the same as in SC2). Another issue could be that Zerg macro is still out of control, and they're just able to make too many Banelings too fast. But that doesn't justify cutting a unit, it suggests a deeper underlying problem. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:53 Laertes wrote: I don't understand how different solutions to similar problems is bad. It only allows for style and decision making. Redundancy in game design is a LIE, if done correctly, small overlap can be brilliant. I have no problem with you smilezerg, but ever since you've known about this you've tried to make it into the game YOU'VE always wanted, and there's nothing wrong with that most of time, but some of time, you are not constructive, and will not compromise. I trust Kabel completely, what he likes I like, it is for this reason that I am backing the macro part of the very interesting abilities you came up for the queen. I do NOT appreciate another shot at trying a dark swarm ability on the queen, and no, that overlap would be horrible, please stop bringing it up. And also, all this hooplah about the baneling is ridiculous, we need to start solidifying, or we'll go round and round in circles. I happen to think the baneling is an amazing unit, its a nice, cheap, alternative to the lurker, and thats a good thing. You also have to handle it differently and that's not bad at all either. I think you're confused Laertes, I'm the one arguing to KEEP the Baneling, not remove it. I'm also aware that my idea for Dark Swarm on the Queen is very controversial, but Kabel was actually one of the strongest supporters for it awhile ago and we've discussed it privately before running into a couple issues that we were unable to solve as of yet. So I attempted to work around those by implementing elements of Dark Swarm in one of the new macro spells to give it more versatility and depth. Even from my perspective it's still not perfect, but it never hurts to brainstorm. I think so many people in the Starbow community are opposed to it because they are afraid of highly skill-intensive mechanics given that none of us are actually pro level players. They want a simple, easy to use flying Defiler, whereas I think it would be much more strategically dynamic to have Dark Swarm on a slow ground unit which requires players to be creative in order to make the best use out of it. I'm just looking for more depth so the game can be continually explored, a goal I'm confident Kabel agrees with, while it seems like others want to narrow down options and figure it out as fast as possible. But that's all discussion for down the road, as I've already resigned myself to the fact that DS isn't going anywhere at least until HotStarbow. We will have an absolute cornucopia of crazy Zerg mechanics from the Campaign to mess with then, and I hope everyone will keep an open mind when the time rolls around. | ||
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Freeze967
United States230 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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