|
I agree that Terran is a little too much like Brood War, but honestly, it's because the race was just designed so damn well in BW and so comparatively poorly in SC2. It's tough to find a role for any new units to actually fit into. I still brainstorm about ways to modify Reapers every once in awhile but I've yet to have anything really click to make me want to push for their return. We're better off making sure all the current Terran units can be used to their full potential first before we think about adding more. My personal number one priority in regards to Terran right now is finding a better spell for the Science Vessel to replace that stupid auto-turret.
Thx for reading dont know i think one good unite that SC2 have is medivac.. but ok you tested and its not ok...
But great job noticing Reapers maybe they are solution to shake up Terran a little.. because they are To much Bw like...(to have normal ATC and upgrade for bombs atc that is good vs buildings.. ) just maybe 
Also i have idea for Ghost .. i think EMP is T3 spell so i think to get back to Science Vessel... but (just maybe)
i Have idea for Ghost..ability look you now can coll up 2 workers for normal price... i think ghost can call up ghost squad of Marines ability that ghost call up 4 marines for 100 energy and 200 minerals instant 4 marines..(spell called marines squad)
that spell will work to add pressure to atc instead of w8ting your army or EMP army of enemy you call up squad to do the job... its original spell i think it can work and give terran some new gameplay.. 
(Spell need to be in ghost range of 5 or 6.. so you cant call army wherever you want) ti work similar to nuke..
|
On October 18 2012 10:06 SmileZerg wrote:
Bole, for like the third time now, we aren't adding Medivacs. Kabel already tried them, changed over to Medic/Dropship, and explained the many reasons that this unit set up is far better. The Viking is actually still in the game, and I wouldn't mind seeing that unit played around with to make it less of a niche unit and have more presence in ground mode.
I agree that Terran is a little too much like Brood War, but honestly, it's because the race was just designed so damn well in BW and so comparatively poorly in SC2. It's tough to find a role for any new units to actually fit into. I still brainstorm about ways to modify Reapers every once in awhile but I've yet to have anything really click to make me want to push for their return. We're better off making sure all the current Terran units can be used to their full potential first before we think about adding more. My personal number one priority in regards to Terran right now is finding a better spell for the Science Vessel to replace that stupid auto-turret.
Back to Zerg. I think our solution for the economy might be in increasing the build time of Drones. It will slow their explosion in the early game but between larvae mechanics allowing us to make more workers at a time and Incubation Cloud compensating later on it should even out if we play with the numbers enough. I have no problem with breaking the stat symmetry of the different harvesters, I always thought they were a little too similar (this is one of the reasons why I like that SCVs have 60 HP again in Starbow).
I've got some more misc. Zerg stuff to talk about later tonight, including Roaches, preliminary thoughts on Swarm Hosts, and Creep upgrades. Be back in a few hours.
For the SCV part, it was incorporated in Brood War because terran was the only race that had a worker that could be attacked while building a structure. So therefor they got extra health. The reason they removed it from SC2 was because it made SCV - Marine all in to powerful.
I'd like to see Zerg lose the baneling, even if it was only temporarily. It could make zerg stake defensive early game, and not want to take a lot of expansions. They could only take the expansions they could defend very well. Like 2-3 spines and hydra/ling for each base. Then once lurkers come out they could be very aggressive again.
|
I agree with just about everything you posted on the last page, but I don't think that banelings are even really necessary to be in the game. I personally don't make use of them at all in ZvT, hydra/ling/spine holds bio assaults pretty efficiently until lurkers are out and Zerg gets a free third base anyways.
I wouldn't be hurt to see it go, but I think it'd narrow options for potentially different plays -- this might be good or bad.
|
I agree that Banelings are a little superfluous in ZvT with the return of Lurkers, but they shake up ZvZ enough (especially with Roaches gone) that I think they need to stay in the game. I would like to see their stats played with though so the two don't overlap quite so much. Maybe lower Baneling movement speed and/or move Centrifugal Hooks to Hive tech. Also making Medics an Armored unit (actually I thought they were already) would let them tank more hits for Marines versus ling/bane play. Firebats should dominate them as well.
I'm glad Neural Parasite is being used again. Honestly I think it should be the Infestor's main spell, and I would like to see the research requirement removed and the icon switch places with Fungal.
|
If the Zergling problem still hasn't been adressed correctly, I think I have an idea :3
Give all lings a passive ability, "Swarm Factor." All lings with this ability(maybe all units?) gain +1 damage x number of units attacking another unit in melee. Sorry if that's explained terrible, so let me try it again. One Marine is being attacked by 1 zergling. The ling deals 6(+1 for itself) damage on each attack. A second ling attacks the same marine, now both are dealing 7 damage per attack. This keeps going for however many units attack one... Because there are no enormous units on the ground such as the thor, you shouldn't have lings dealing 20 damage a pop, but I'd lower their base damage to 3. This way, a pair of lings, how they are spawned, will deal the same dps currently supposing they attack the same target. This ability doesn't work on buildings.
I think this will be fun, and encourage both better play and fit a theme. Zergs overwhelm. If there are an enormous amount of lings on one unit, it shouldn't stand a chance. Also, to make lings as effective, if not more effective than they used to be, you will have to split and flank to get the most surface area. A-moving lings as they are now, you have a bunch that run around and do nothing, this would be a even more massive loss of dps than it is now. If there are more melee units (hydra alternate attack, is that it?) maybe adding this ability to them will encourage players to use them in more ways.
|
I have a suggestion for reapers - maybe you could change their cliffwalk ability to cloak. But this cloak would be different from the ghost/banshee cloak, in that they cannot attack when cloak. So they can scout and infiltrate when cloaked, then reveal themselves to attack, then recloak to escape. This would make for an interesting mechanic I think. The time needed to cloak and decloak could be tweaked as necessary.
|
On October 18 2012 13:06 nilsheam wrote:
If the Zergling problem still hasn't been adressed correctly, I think I have an idea :3
Give all lings a passive ability, "Swarm Factor." All lings with this ability(maybe all units?) gain +1 damage x number of units attacking another unit in melee. Sorry if that's explained terrible, so let me try it again. One Marine is being attacked by 1 zergling. The ling deals 6(+1 for itself) damage on each attack. A second ling attacks the same marine, now both are dealing 7 damage per attack. This keeps going for however many units attack one... Because there are no enormous units on the ground such as the thor, you shouldn't have lings dealing 20 damage a pop, but I'd lower their base damage to 3. This way, a pair of lings, how they are spawned, will deal the same dps currently supposing they attack the same target. This ability doesn't work on buildings.
I think this will be fun, and encourage both better play and fit a theme. Zergs overwhelm. If there are an enormous amount of lings on one unit, it shouldn't stand a chance. Also, to make lings as effective, if not more effective than they used to be, you will have to split and flank to get the most surface area. A-moving lings as they are now, you have a bunch that run around and do nothing, this would be a even more massive loss of dps than it is now. If there are more melee units (hydra alternate attack, is that it?) maybe adding this ability to them will encourage players to use them in more ways.
This doesn't actually accomplish anything since you're getting more DPS the more lings you have surrounding a target regardless. It would just be wonky and difficult as fuck to balance. I don't think it would really encourage micro.
The Zergling situation should be solvable with the two-step process of:
- Reducing Speedling speed and increasing Slowling speed.
- Adding a delayed damage point to Zerglings and increasing attack rate.
Other possibilities include capping maximum unit selection at 24 and slightly increasing the Zerglings collision size.
On October 18 2012 13:25 targ wrote:
I have a suggestion for reapers - maybe you could change their cliffwalk ability to cloak. But this cloak would be different from the ghost/banshee cloak, in that they cannot attack when cloak. So they can scout and infiltrate when cloaked, then reveal themselves to attack, then recloak to escape. This would make for an interesting mechanic I think. The time needed to cloak and decloak could be tweaked as necessary.
This is kinda cool but doesn't make logical sense for several reasons, and it still overlaps with Ghosts from a role perspective.
|
Real quick I want to return to the subject of Creep.
I like where it's going with the increased regeneration rate for Zerg units but I still think we could do more with it. I had earlier suggested that it also increase attack speed, but I've changed my mind. My other suggestion was that it slowly drain health from Mechanical units, as sort of a corollary to the increased regen for Zerg (which are all bio) and a logical extension of the fact that Terran/Protoss cannot build on it. It would add a lot of depth to the ZvTMech match-up, give Overlords a way to do some slight harass and just generally feel flavorful and fun.
Could be a pretty powerful change though, so I think it should be an upgrade. I've always been jealous of Terran with their cool building upgrades at the EBay, with the increased building armor/turret range/bunker space, so I would like to see some similar base related upgrades at the Evo Chamber for Zerg, starting with this one.
Corrosive Substrate
Costs 150/150, 110 seconds, requires Lair. [Icon row 2, underneath the Melee/Ranged/Carapace ups.]
Creep deals 2 damage per second to Mechanical units and structures. Does not affect hovering or shielded targets.
Once researched, this would make Overlords a danger to siege lines without AA support and make clearing tumors an important part of tank crawls. If necessary we can reduce the time it takes for Creep to recede after the source has been destroyed. It would also encourage Protoss players to retreat with their Blink Stalkers and Immortals once the shields drop and wait to regain them before attacking again (could even see more Mass Recall used for this purpose). Of course Zealot/Templar/Archon is still a viable alternative if they really need to gain a foothold in Creep covered ground.
I'm a really big fan of the Zerg making the environment toxic to their opponents in whatever ways they can and I always thought there should be some way to make Creep give a negative effect to non-Zerg as well as buffs to themselves.
|
I do not think capping the maximum units selection (to anything) is the way to go. The rest of SmileZerg's suggestions for the zergling sound great though. An increase in zergling size would also be welcome.
|
On October 18 2012 13:53 purakushi wrote:
I do not think capping the maximum units selection (to anything) is the way to go. The rest of SmileZerg's suggestions for the zergling sound great though. An increase in zergling size would also be welcome.
I can't take credit for any of those, just recapping what other people have already discussed in relation to Zergling fixes.
Also I'm similarly iffy on capping selection size, but if we did do it, 24 units is the only acceptable number, since it is precisely one page worth of units, and double the number from BW (fitting for a game that is the second installment).
|
On October 18 2012 13:53 purakushi wrote:
I do not think capping the maximum units selection (to anything) is the way to go. The rest of SmileZerg's suggestions for the zergling sound great though. An increase in zergling size would also be welcome.
Capping the max unit selection limit is not an option at the moment anyway, Maverck (sc2bw) spent a lot of time trying to make it work correctly and apparently it's impossible to do in the editor (it has to be done server side, which introduces a delay as far as I understand).
|
Also i have idea for Ghost .. i think EMP is T3 spell so i think to get back to Science Vessel... but (just maybe)
i Have idea for Ghost..ability look you now can coll up 2 workers for normal price... i think ghost can call up ghost squad of Marines ability that ghost call up 4 marines for 100 energy and 200 minerals instant 4 marines..(spell called marines squad)
Cool idea. I think Ghosts had a similar spell in the SC2 Alpha. I will save this idea for later, but not do anything with it now.
The Zergling situation should be solvable with the two-step process of:
- Reducing Speedling speed and increasing Slowling speed.
- Adding a delayed damage point to Zerglings and increasing attack rate.
I and Danko have experimented with this. We think we have reached a good solution. Zerglings are larger, a bit slower when upgraded, has faster attack speed and a delayed damage point. This means that Zerglings are much better when players flank with them. It also means that Zerglings are more efficent when players manually surround the opponent, rather than just A-move. It feels ok so far.
Other possibilities include capping maximum unit selection at 24.
I have tried to add a unit selection limit, just as in Sc2BW, but it is not working good enough. Unless someone has a magic solution, we will stick around with unlimited selection.
+ Show Spoiler +
I like where it's going with the increased regeneration rate for Zerg units but I still think we could do more with it. I had earlier suggested that it also increase attack speed, but I've changed my mind. My other suggestion was that it slowly drain health from Mechanical units, as sort of a corollary to the increased regen for Zerg (which are all bio) and a logical extension of the fact that Terran/Protoss cannot build on it. It would add a lot of depth to the ZvTMech match-up, give Overlords a way to do some slight harass and just generally feel flavorful and fun.
Could be a pretty powerful change though, so I think it should be an upgrade. I've always been jealous of Terran with their cool building upgrades at the EBay, with the increased building armor/turret range/bunker space, so I would like to see some similar base related upgrades at the Evo Chamber for Zerg, starting with this one.
Corrosive Substrate
Costs 150/150, 110 seconds, requires Lair. [Icon row 2, underneath the Melee/Ranged/Carapace ups.]
Creep deals 2 damage per second to Mechanical units and structures. Does not affect hovering or shielded targets.
Once researched, this would make Overlords a danger to siege lines without AA support and make clearing tumors an important part of tank crawls. If necessary we can reduce the time it takes for Creep to recede after the source has been destroyed. It would also encourage Protoss players to retreat with their Blink Stalkers and Immortals once the shields drop and wait to regain them before attacking again (could even see more Mass Recall used for this purpose). Of course Zealot/Templar/Archon is still a viable alternative if they really need to gain a foothold in Creep covered ground.
I'm a really big fan of the Zerg making the environment toxic to their opponents in whatever ways they can and I always thought there should be some way to make Creep give a negative effect to non-Zerg as well as buffs to themselves.
I don´t think it is a good idea to make creep always deal damage to mechanical units. It would make it even harder to push out vs Zerg. Stalkers and Vultures would be very bad at harassing. I see no reason to make Overlords dangerous by making their creep damage tanks when used on top of them. They are already dangerous vs tanks depending whats loaded into them.
I did use a similar thing some months ago as a Queen spell. "Infect Creep" or something. It targeted a tumor and turned all nearby creep dangerous for all units for ca 30 seconds. Creep became a no-go-zone, a way to buy time. I experimented with it. It was ok, but it felt a bit uncessary.
|
I bump this again. Anyone here skilled at the editor who can take a look at this spell?
I have a hard time to get one of the abilities to work: The Queen summons a "cloud" on the ground. Buildings are built faster, eggs are hatched faster, and morphing units, like lurkers and banelings, are produced faster within the cloud.
Problems:
- When a building is built under the "cloud", its built faster but the HP is not following the acceleration. So a completed buildings only has maybe 60-75% of its HP.
- The model refuses to show up. Something is weird with the actor and I can´t find out what causes it.
I upload a test-map here with the spell. Maybe someone here has time and skills to help me? http://www.speedyshare.com/TmcjS/Love-cloud-test-map.SC2Map
|
On October 18 2012 17:49 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +Also i have idea for Ghost .. i think EMP is T3 spell so i think to get back to Science Vessel... but (just maybe)
i Have idea for Ghost..ability look you now can coll up 2 workers for normal price... i think ghost can call up ghost squad of Marines ability that ghost call up 4 marines for 100 energy and 200 minerals instant 4 marines..(spell called marines squad) Cool idea. I think Ghosts had a similar spell in the SC2 Alpha. I will save this idea for later, but not do anything with it now.
I've also been thinking about ways to bring back Drop Pods, so I'm glad that's on the table.
Show nested quote +
The Zergling situation should be solvable with the two-step process of:
- Reducing Speedling speed and increasing Slowling speed.
- Adding a delayed damage point to Zerglings and increasing attack rate.
I and Danko have experimented with this. We think we have reached a good solution. Zerglings are larger, a bit slower when upgraded, has faster attack speed and a delayed damage point. This means that Zerglings are much better when players flank with them. It also means that Zerglings are more efficent when players manually surround the opponent, rather than just A-move. It feels ok so far.
Awesome. :D
I have tried to add a unit selection limit, just as in Sc2BW, but it is not working good enough. Unless someone has a magic solution, we will stick around with unlimited selection.
Yeah considering I was really on the fence about that anyway I'm good with that.
+ Show Spoiler +
I like where it's going with the increased regeneration rate for Zerg units but I still think we could do more with it. I had earlier suggested that it also increase attack speed, but I've changed my mind. My other suggestion was that it slowly drain health from Mechanical units, as sort of a corollary to the increased regen for Zerg (which are all bio) and a logical extension of the fact that Terran/Protoss cannot build on it. It would add a lot of depth to the ZvTMech match-up, give Overlords a way to do some slight harass and just generally feel flavorful and fun.
Could be a pretty powerful change though, so I think it should be an upgrade. I've always been jealous of Terran with their cool building upgrades at the EBay, with the increased building armor/turret range/bunker space, so I would like to see some similar base related upgrades at the Evo Chamber for Zerg, starting with this one.
Corrosive Substrate
Costs 150/150, 110 seconds, requires Lair. [Icon row 2, underneath the Melee/Ranged/Carapace ups.]
Creep deals 2 damage per second to Mechanical units and structures. Does not affect hovering or shielded targets.
Once researched, this would make Overlords a danger to siege lines without AA support and make clearing tumors an important part of tank crawls. If necessary we can reduce the time it takes for Creep to recede after the source has been destroyed. It would also encourage Protoss players to retreat with their Blink Stalkers and Immortals once the shields drop and wait to regain them before attacking again (could even see more Mass Recall used for this purpose). Of course Zealot/Templar/Archon is still a viable alternative if they really need to gain a foothold in Creep covered ground.
I'm a really big fan of the Zerg making the environment toxic to their opponents in whatever ways they can and I always thought there should be some way to make Creep give a negative effect to non-Zerg as well as buffs to themselves.
I don´t think it is a good idea to make creep always deal damage to mechanical units. It would make it even harder to push out vs Zerg. Stalkers and Vultures would be very bad at harassing. I see no reason to make Overlords dangerous by making their creep damage tanks when used on top of them. They are already dangerous vs tanks depending whats loaded into them. I did use a similar thing some months ago as a Queen spell. "Infect Creep" or something. It targeted a tumor and turned all nearby creep dangerous for all units for ca 30 seconds. Creep became a no-go-zone, a way to buy time. I experimented with it. It was ok, but it felt a bit uncessary.
Stalkers would only be affected if their shields dropped to zero, and Vultures are hovering units (as well as SCVs and Probes) so they would never be affected.
This would be an excellent way to get Overlords out on the field more and cause more struggle for positioning and air control, not to mention the potential for harassing buildings. We could even go as low as dropping the damage to 1 per second, as long as it's there it will have at least a psychological effect. Non-Zerg players will fear Creep in and of itself, not only the creatures on it. I think that is important - Blizzard is even adding animations for Creep covering enemy buildings in HotS to really make it uncomfortable for the other races to see.
|
|
|
This mod is becoming way too complicated...
|
|
|
Thanks for your help Laertes! Yes the Progress field was the villain in this drama.
This mod is becoming way too complicated...
Well, I don´t think this MOD is more complicated to play than what SC2 is. Units or spells here are barely more complicated to use or understand than in the other Starcraft games. But I assume you are referring to the Zerg changes?
Most of it is just ideas. Only a small portion of all ideas makes it into the game. The thing we are discussing now is how more depth and "fun" can be added to the Zerg race. Both how macro and micro can become more interesting for Zerg. Cause right now, with the weaker Inject, Zerg is not very challenging to play. Spam units, A-move with them. And with stronger Inject, Zerg becomes SC2 Zerg, which I don´t think is a good solution either, for various reasons : /
|
I like the Incubation Cloud idea too, and I am trying to create it. I think it could help to make Zerg macro more interesting. But I think it might be impossible to let one spell do all this in a smooth way. Here is what the spell is suppose to do:
- It creates a "cloud" on the ground.
- All buildings morphed within the cloud are built faster.
- All eggs, banelings and lurkers in the cloud are morphed faster.
To get the eggs and units to morph faster, I must manipulate the Time Scale value within the buff that is added to each unit. Since the spell effects buildings too, all upgrades etc are researched much faster. I find no way to make it only effect buildings under construction, AND at the same time only effect Eggs. (I use validators for this)
Another problem with the Time scale value, when used on Zerg buildings, is that the animations looks weird. Normally the buildings pulsates and breaths with a low pulse. Now it looks like they have a panic attack : /
Another problem is that the Cloud is an area of effect spell. Its good since you can pack eggs/lurkers/banelings together who benefits from it. But its bad for the buildings. I can place 3 buildings close to each other, and the Cloud will only cover the third building by a tiny tiny tiny bit, and it will still get the acceleration bonus! It just looks silly : /
Hm.. I could use a Set-effect that applies two different behaviours: one goes to the building which only changes the Progress and Morph fields. The other behaviour changes the time scale and is only applied to the egg/lurker/baneling.
You have any solution to this Laertes?
---
An alternative solution would be to axe the spell into seperate spells.
- The cloud spell only accelerates eggs, lurkers and banelings. That would be easy to do. The problem is that it would basically be an Area of effect - Chrono boost that only work on units : /
- To accelerate building speed becomes a seperate spell with a single target. The Queen targets a building and its built a little bit faster. No other macro mechanic does that. But the spell would feel very limited and almost redundant. Sure, you can speed up a tech building here and there. Or make a bit faster defensive structures. But its not like Chrono boost or Calldown SCV, which has a purpose in lots of situations all game long.
|
I´m looking what can be done with Inject. An easy change is to make them spawn 1 larva per X second, instead of X larvas at the end of the effect. Basically, this means that a hatchery spawns larvas faster, instead of in a big burst.
One way can be to make Inject work like a "Overload" - ability. You target a hatchery and it spawns larvas at a higher rate. The downside is that the hatchery loses its rally point as long as the hatchery has an acceleration in larva spawn rate. So you can macro like a boss at your hatcheries, but if you do, your produced units and workers require extra attention from the Zerg player.. Hmm..
The goal of these changes is to improve the macro of Zerg, in terms of:
- more decisions to make
- more versatile use (Chrono boost and Calldown SCV can be used in different ways)
- "get more stuff to do.."
And if none of the ideas improves this, then well... gg :p
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
