ESV Ohana has come a long way since the TeamLiquid Map Contest. Placing second, the map was accepted in certain places around StarCraft II, but I had no idea what kind of changes this map was about to go through. Over the months, Ohana has gone through three major phases to become what it is today. Because it has been thoroughly updated, ESV Ohana will officially replace Ohana RE for good. As of March 27, 10:41PM PST, 'ESV Ohana' will be removed and will be replaced by this new version, ESV Ohana LE. The stages are as followed:
When I first published Ohana (TLMC version), it was a candidate for season 3 of the NASL. Gretorp loved the map but wanted it to be more tournament-friendly, so he offered his suggestions and helped shape Ohana to something new. The layout looks the way it does today because of Gretorp's superb balance input, and for that he deserves a lot of credit for making Ohana more playable.
I have to give these fellow rivals, my former teammates, some serious credit. I was in TPW when I first created Ohana, and I had the idea of creating a dry beach. They supported me with the layout and gave me some ideas for the aesthetics. Truth be told --- without the TPW map-makers and their knowledge, Ohana would be close to nothing in the competitive world of StarCraft 2.
When I published the first version (TLMC), I actually hated it and thought it was one of the most imbalanced maps ever. The TPW guys, who swam through a sea of sweat and blood, eventually convinced me to give it a go for NASL with some of their maps, and a few months later the map is what it is.
The Planetary Workshop, consisting of skilled map-makers, are the real creators of Ohana's success in NASL. And for that I am truly grateful for these guys.
Thanks guys, it was great working with you guys from the start!
These guys have been a big help in terms of providing aesthetics and ideas of scenery. After I was told by Blizzard to remove the rivers that flowed through the center of the map (which caused graphic issues), the map screamed for an aesthetic update to make up for such a unique, creative loss. Timetwister and prodiG have taken the time to help me transform the map's beauty into what it is today since it's previous version, Ohana RE. I later did some research on some Ohana beaches around hawaii, and comparing and contrasting to this map, i'd say it's pretty accurate!
Clan RH on the NA server has earned my personal gratification. These guys, who are mostly master players, have been testing several of my maps for the past few months, but none of it compared to the testing they provided on Ohana. We all know how hard it is for foreign map-makers to get good players to test out their map, but these RH guys willingly and gladly tested the many versions of Ohana over the months. RH really stepped up and filled that much-needed role and has made my map-making much less stressful and more enjoyable. Without these wonderful lads and their amazing feedback (and entertaining games!), Ohana would not be nearly as balanced as it is today. Thanks so much guys!
I have the same question but I'm not sure if it's rude to ask. If it is acceptable, please disclose all the changes you made. You know, for those of us that are daft at spotting 7 different things ^.^
1) Put the main bases into the corners more to prevent air space behind them. I also enlarged them.
2) Bring the third closer to the natural as well as the 4th near the center.
3) Create a gap between the main and the base that hugs it. This makes it easier for air units to fight against terran drop ships who like to play the "elevator" game.
Everything else is just aesthetic changes and whatnot.
Also, by the high ground bases near the center, there is a small, odd-looking chunk of land hanging around near the edge. It is useful for proxy, warp-ins, drops, and sensor towers. Use it to your advantage!
Definitely enjoy the Main-nat-3rd of your original better. Anyway you would just be able to keep the Main-3rd of your original but bring the 4th in closer, because I think bringing the 4th closer to the 3rd is definitely a great change.
edit. yeah did some searching, I see you still stream ^_^
yeah the things nasl wanted are all things that are known to work well against the current op strats and make macro games easier for all races. I like the original more though, but hope the map will make it into the nasl pool.
It's not gaurantee that NASL will be using either version of Ohana, but they are definitely considering it. Hopefully this revised version fits their needs.
The changes all look great. I'm really looking forward to seeing this in the NASL and hoping badly that it gets it's rightful place on the SCII ladder.
On December 17 2011 16:59 Sea_Food wrote: It would be so confusing if the original version made it in the ladder map pool, but then nasl would use this.
Also the same thing as what happened at wcg map changes is that im left wondering who are their map analyzing experts who came up with the demands.
After a while, which ever version is used more will be the official one.
I don't like that chunk of terrain next to the 4th. I'd rather the base next to the expo a bit further away from it to make it viable as fift. I like that it's a bit more open in the middle now though.
the base layout is what ohana should have been since the beginning and im glad for that but the middle is still an issue; like i said way back in motm, the movement path resembles XNC because there's no reason for people to go through the middle.
Hm I don't know if I like some of these changes, most of them seem geared towards making the map easier to play for certain races and more 'typical' in its layout. The third (bottom expo) is now extremely easy to take with how much closer it is and how easy it is to wall. The fourth is also not much more difficult now that you've added those rocks that can be used to make siege lines/forcefields around.
Also regarding the openness of the map, with the added trees and rocks you have taken away a lot of the asymmetry of the central area that the original map had, here's a diagram to show you exactly what I mean.
Note the very open red areas and contrastingly less open yellow areas, where on the new version it is all around the same amount of openness. In my opinion you should remove the rocks at the top left and bottom right to keep that asymmetry. This would also have the added bonus of making that fourth base a little harder to take as in my opinion it should be being a fourth base.
I do like the map overall but in my opinion you should try to find some middle ground between old and new, such as I've mentioned with removing those rocks near the 4th to keep the openness and asymmetry of the old map. Good effort though and I appreciate your ability to continually update your map to the best interest of the community.
Oops sorry I meant the bottom expo 3rd not the green grass expo, it is extremely easy to take because its very close to the nat and can be walled off with just a few buildings.
On December 20 2011 16:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: nice :D this is a beautiful map and isn't a pain to learn (where do i expand???)
Oh good
On December 20 2011 16:19 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: would love to see this in the ladder
If you see it in ladder, it will probably be the original version, not the RE one Although it's possible that Ohana RE will be used by NASL in season 3.
On December 20 2011 16:48 Diamond wrote: Just want to say this may be the most well done map out there from an aesthetics standpoint, really well done IronMan !
Thanks ^^ What can I say, I love nature! Which goes to explain why I will never make city maps
ESV Ohana RE has been updated and is now published as 1.2. This is the final version as far as I'm concerned.
1.2 published on NA, EU, and KR.
1.2 Changes:
• Doodads, islands, cliffs, and variance of the height tool around the map borders have been completely removed. For one, you can't see them in-game anyways, and two, they caused a number of graphic and performance issues for players, so this should reduce that.
• All low-ground bases have been slightly re-designed and have had the water removed from behind the mineral lines. This caused too much confusion for players not knowing what the pathable areas were.
• The main bases and naturals have had their heights altered. They were sloped too much and were not flat. They have been fixed.
I know I mentioned the "final version" in my previous post but I would like to announce that there will be one more major update to Ohana and then it will be finalized. I plan on streaming the next Ohana changes soon on ESV.TV when I get the chance.
I hope it comes in the mappool real quickly so we can play it this season on ladder, because than the mappool would have just an other great map. Good work, thx.
On December 20 2011 16:48 Diamond wrote: Just want to say this may be the most well done map out there from an aesthetics standpoint, really well done IronMan !
Thanks ^^ What can I say, I love nature! Which goes to explain why I will never make city maps
Agreed, I'm not ready to pick a #1, but this map is easily tied for maps I would consider as #1.
I also feel te same way about city maps lol. I'll probably make one eventually, but I just love nature.
Looks like Ohana will hit the ladder in season 7! Congratz! I agree about those aesthetics
On December 20 2011 16:48 Diamond wrote: Just want to say this may be the most well done map out there from an aesthetics standpoint, really well done IronMan !
Thanks ^^ What can I say, I love nature! Which goes to explain why I will never make city maps
Agreed, I'm not ready to pick a #1, but this map is easily tied for maps I would consider as #1.
I also feel te same way about city maps lol. I'll probably make one eventually, but I just love nature.
Looks like Ohana will hit the ladder in season 7! Congratz! I agree about those aesthetics
I've been working a great deal on Ohana for the past couple days. There have been a couple changes that Blizzard has requested from me, such as:
• Not using the height tool on an extreme level. In this case, I had to virtually remove the canyons in the water since it caused a lot of performance and graphical issues.
• That I remove the pathable/landable/buildable water that flowed through the center. Granted, the map feels more open and a little more plain, but it's what they want and that's something I'm going to honor. Removing the water demanded me to re-work the aesthetics quite a bit.
So far, this is the rough draft of the future Ohana. This is what you're likely to expect to see in ladder soon:
So basically they want you to remove the soul of the map. The textures and doodads are still extremely well done, but the beach feeling is more subdued.
I don't understand why Blizzard feels like they need to change every map. If it works in tournaments already, why do they need to change it?
It still looks great. And i think too many aesthetics in non-highlighted spots bring more neagtive aspects than positive. It will be super awesome to play it on Ladder. :D
On February 12 2012 04:27 HKSpartan wrote: So basically they want you to remove the soul of the map. The textures and doodads are still extremely well done, but the beach feeling is more subdued.
I don't understand why Blizzard feels like they need to change every map. If it works in tournaments already, why do they need to change it?
I loved the water flowing through the center of the map, and I'm sure everybody else did too. I think we are just used to it too much. But, for this map to work on ladder it has to be smooth from level to level.
The water removal was much needed. I know a lot of people liked it, and in an overview, it looked quite nice, but playing on a map with water like that is rough. For one, I don't have the best computer, and even on low settings it can be difficult for my computer to handle. Secondly, the warping effects and graphical glitches that came with placing buildings in or near the water turn a pretty map into a an unsightly one.
Sorry you had to take the water out, but I have to admit I would have been upset if Blizzard had put it into the ladder pool without making the change.
I don't like the stone texture you used at the cliffs. Doesn't fit the color scheme. I don't think you should use the sand dunes texture in the water. Looks nonsensical. I'd rather use a darker normal sand texture to simulate wet sand. Green grass looks stupid on sand. The Tarsonis grass I don't mind that much, but I'm not sure yet. Maybe try to always use the Tarsonis grass on sand, and just add highlights in the Tarsonis grass with the green grass texture.
On February 12 2012 10:38 Koagel wrote: I don't like the stone texture you used at the cliffs. Doesn't fit the color scheme. I don't think you should use the sand dunes texture in the water. Looks nonsensical. I'd rather use a darker normal sand texture to simulate wet sand. Green grass looks stupid on sand. The Tarsonis grass I don't mind that much, but I'm not sure yet. Maybe try to always use the Tarsonis grass on sand, and just add highlights in the Tarsonis grass with the green grass texture.
You realize the ohana image in the OP is being re-done right?
On February 12 2012 10:38 Koagel wrote: I don't like the stone texture you used at the cliffs. Doesn't fit the color scheme. I don't think you should use the sand dunes texture in the water. Looks nonsensical. I'd rather use a darker normal sand texture to simulate wet sand. Green grass looks stupid on sand. The Tarsonis grass I don't mind that much, but I'm not sure yet. Maybe try to always use the Tarsonis grass on sand, and just add highlights in the Tarsonis grass with the green grass texture.
You realize the ohana image in the OP is being re-done right?
Is it possible to lower the edges of the Base above the main a bit to have a little bit of water flowing in there? Like in the first version of Ohana? Then you would have at least a little bit of water.
Tassadar vs Hack, the game played on this map. How the heck does a Terran stop void ray all ins on this map? Hack went for what seems like the perfect opening vs proxy voids, expo then loads of barracks instead of a fast factory, but because the voids can charge on the rocks, he still got owned. Is it just me, or are early voids a bit too powerful on this map?
I realy liked the water in the center, but if it gets the map on ladder in season 7 then it will be well worth it. Congratz on that btw :D
Oh wait, just saw the one the team helped you with, I like this new "desolate island" look just as much as the lush island one before. I feel a light fog? Just suggestion :D
edit: yeah looking at the whole map image not sure if i like the top right aesthetic bit.
LE version of Ohana is now published on NA only as ohanaLEtest 0.2
Changes:
1) Opened up the air space gap between the main and natural (near the minerals) to allow for proper overlord placement scouting. Previously, the gap was too small and no air units could survive while remaining stationary. This is now fixed.
2) Texture touch-ups
3) Fixed water and tree glitches, as well as added in a few more doodads
Okay so Ohana went through some major changes since it's predecessor, ESV Ohana RE. The map itself and literally everything in the OP is updated. All discussion up until this post are about the RE version, so hopefully nobody gets confused.
It still looks great, may I daresay even better than before. Granted the water is gone, but I think if you look at it without judging it as being altered from its original "beach map" form, I think that the aesthetics are greatly improved! And I'm sure the performance issues that the water/height present were worth fixing.
Layout wise, again, beautiful. the only thing that I would like more from what I can say is moving the rocks as Barrin said, for the reason he said... ^_^ Creative and original input right? But hey, he's a pretty smart dude! I also like how it is sort of small (5 bases a piece), and I can see it lending itself to a wide variety of playstyles. The large number of LOS blockers should make it very dynamic and active as well. Most of this is theoretical, as I clearly have not played as many games as I would have liked on it. Anyways, I think this will be a nice addition to the ladder, as it really needs more two player maps. And community made maps! :D
Also I was confused with your latest post, because I had just went through the thread and had seen your posts showing rough versions of ESV Ohana, and was like wait that was RE??? Anyways, makes sense now >.>
This was my favorite map from the TL Map Contest hands down. I am very sad to see the water go - for some reason the water really made me feel like I was waging a war on that terrain. Now I don't feel that as much. I would try to add some water back in, if possible, as I felt it really made the "feel" of the map (most importantly in the middle area). Very nice map though, I hope it gets added to the ladder map pool!
On February 19 2012 17:16 KJSharp wrote: This was my favorite map from the TL Map Contest hands down. I am very sad to see the water go - for some reason the water really made me feel like I was waging a war on that terrain. Now I don't feel that as much. I would try to add some water back in, if possible, as I felt it really made the "feel" of the map (most importantly in the middle area). Very nice map though, I hope it gets added to the ladder map pool!
I know, I feel the same way as well as many others towards the rivers. It was referred to as the map's "soul." Unfortunately I cannot add water back in the map
Why exactly can't you add water back? Layout-wise, it's the best it's ever been. Even if there's just a bit of water lying around, it really added something to the aesthetic.
On February 20 2012 00:14 Zeon0 wrote: "• Rivers removed and overall water has been reduced drastically because of performance issues"
This. The water caused graphical issues as well. Blizzard made it very plain that for a map to work for ladder, and to handle a large amount of computers, the terrain "needs to be smooth from level to level."
This map is absolutely amazing! It is one of my 3 favorite maps, along with Ithaca and Belshir. Will it be up on ladder next season or do we have to wait longer?
On February 21 2012 05:19 Bosskonasegway wrote: This map is absolutely amazing! It is one of my 3 favorite maps, along with Ithaca and Belshir. Will it be up on ladder next season or do we have to wait longer?
Blizzard is currently testing this version for ladder (minus the neutral depots). So far they haven't given me any requests for changes so you can probably expect it in season 7.
On February 21 2012 08:46 Barrin wrote: I don't mean to bash on the map or anything, IronMan knows I like this map... This is more a general thing.
But it really says something about the general perceived importance (or more specifically, potential room and need of innovation) of mapmaking when an aesthetic is like the "heart" of a map in people's eyes. Same deal with mr shark.
Personally I don't give a rat's ass about aesthetics; as long as the map plays out good. Seems though that my opinion is one in the very small minority though.
On February 21 2012 09:33 Wroshe wrote: Personally I don't give a rat's ass about aesthetics; as long as the map plays out good. Seems though that my opinion is one in the very small minority though.
Can't wait to play this one on ladder I'm glad blizzard is finally getting maps from the community. Seems like a positive direction to me. I also miss the water, but i guess function over form.
On February 21 2012 14:50 TheFish7 wrote: Can't wait to play this one on ladder I'm glad blizzard is finally getting maps from the community. Seems like a positive direction to me. I also miss the water, but i guess function over form.
It makes perfect sense that ladder maps should be more on the plain side if they are to work for the tens or hundreds of thousands of computers to handle it daily. Tournament maps are much more decorative. I actually asked if I could implement rivers back in the tournament map version and they said no and that a map that's in ladder and a tournament need to be the same. That was their requirement I tried.
On February 21 2012 08:46 Barrin wrote: I don't mean to bash on the map or anything, IronMan knows I like this map... This is more a general thing.
But it really says something about the general perceived importance (or more specifically, potential room and need of innovation) of mapmaking when an aesthetic is like the "heart" of a map in people's eyes. Same deal with mr shark.
It's always going to be a lot easier to look at a map and tell if you think it's pretty or not, than it is to look at a map and tell if it's good or not.
The former can be done by anyone in a single glance. For the majority of us, the latter only comes from playing on it or watching games played on it.
On February 21 2012 08:46 Barrin wrote: I don't mean to bash on the map or anything, IronMan knows I like this map... This is more a general thing.
But it really says something about the general perceived importance (or more specifically, potential room and need of innovation) of mapmaking when an aesthetic is like the "heart" of a map in people's eyes. Same deal with mr shark.
People want their Bel'Shir Beach back. Summer needs to come quicker.
On February 21 2012 14:50 TheFish7 wrote: Can't wait to play this one on ladder I'm glad blizzard is finally getting maps from the community. Seems like a positive direction to me. I also miss the water, but i guess function over form.
It makes perfect sense that ladder maps should be more on the plain side if they are to work for the tens or hundreds of thousands of computers to handle it daily. Tournament maps are much more decorative. I actually asked if I could implement rivers back in the tournament map version and they said no and that a map that's in ladder and a tournament need to be the same. That was their requirement I tried.
That's too bad... I guess there will simply be a split between maps aiming for ladder exposure and maps aiming for tournament exposure.
Personally, I'm just looking forward to playing a desert-tiled map that's not Desert Oasis or Blistering Sands!
On February 21 2012 14:50 TheFish7 wrote: Can't wait to play this one on ladder I'm glad blizzard is finally getting maps from the community. Seems like a positive direction to me. I also miss the water, but i guess function over form.
It makes perfect sense that ladder maps should be more on the plain side if they are to work for the tens or hundreds of thousands of computers to handle it daily. Tournament maps are much more decorative. I actually asked if I could implement rivers back in the tournament map version and they said no and that a map that's in ladder and a tournament need to be the same. That was their requirement I tried.
That's too bad... I guess there will simply be a split between maps aiming for ladder exposure and maps aiming for tournament exposure.
Personally, I'm just looking forward to playing a desert-tiled map that's not Desert Oasis or Blistering Sands!
I'm sure blizzard uses the "submit non-personal system information" thing when you first install to determine sort of the mean and median performance of starcraft 2 player's computers. I guess they decided that most people would have low frame rates if water was involved in a 200/200 battle. The good news is probably that once HOTS comes out, the average user will have a better performing computer (since computers double in speed every 6 months) And hopefully we'll be in for some more "pretty" battles. so the morale of the story is, keep working on those aesthetics!
Hey IronmanSC. I don't think the sandy environment looks good without the water in the middle. If there is a source of water, and no sources of corrosion, the area should look much greener.
I have a great suggestion, however! The Sholazar Basin area of WoW has a magnificent "tileset" that would work for this map. Here are some pictures: + Show Spoiler +
In the last picture, in the top left, brown earth co-exists with sand, water and grass. The grass tendrils out from the main group and the brown earth lies between the grass where animals (or zerglings!) have worn it down.
Overall, my point is that currently the map looks too much like a desert to have grass. It looks eerie and unnatural. A jungle theme with power crystals, and a bit of brown earth would fit MUCH better.
On another note, perhaps the WoW world designers could quickly make this tileset up, since they were the ones who made it in the first place. If not, it is still Blizzard material we are working off of, which should be a plus.
I appreciate your ideas DeltruS and may consider it for future maps, but if I change it now, it will force Ohana to go into a whole new round of testing (according to Blizzard). I've already made probably 5-6 updates on this one for season 7, and another change will only lessen the chance of it getting into ladder s7 map pool. I want to hold off, since I personally think it's fine and I've got no real complaints yet on the scenery other than "I miss the water." (check it out in-game if you haven't yet).
Lol, I love this map. I just had a grudge 1 v 1 match and totally owned a dude on here. Haha. Thanks for creating the map. Who in TvT one bases till 25 Min and then long distance mines to their natural?
It's great to see your detailed history of this map. I appreciate your willingness to take criticism and work with both technical and aesthetic aspects to ensure a better map. I do miss the water as well, but if it makes the map more playable, then so be it.
I actually challenged a troll who beat me with some BS yesterday thinking he would just block me. To my surprise, he said "make a game", so I did, with this map. It played out better than what I was expecting, I like the map actually, I won as I was taking a third so I didnt get the full macro effect but it its still pretty nice. Looking forward to it next season!
On March 17 2012 05:15 CaptainCrush wrote: I actually challenged a troll who beat me with some BS yesterday thinking he would just block me. To my surprise, he said "make a game", so I did, with this map. It played out better than what I was expecting, I like the map actually, I won as I was taking a third so I didnt get the full macro effect but it its still pretty nice. Looking forward to it next season!
I appreciate comments like this. People often look at the map and say things like
"3rd is too open"
"There are only 5 bases, not enough"
"It's too open. Zerg OP on this map"
but when you actually play it, it's usually better and more dynamic than what you thought. I wish people weren't so quick to judge simply because it's a new map. Thanks for the comment though, and glad you liked it better than what you were expecting!
On March 19 2012 22:38 Pocky52 wrote: Congrats on GSL, you'll need to update your OP for the tournaments it's been used in! Keep making dem maps, you're obviously not doing too shabby ^^
If you are referring to Atlantis Spaceship, that's actually from LSPrime of Team Crux, though congrats to them as well ^^
I'm referring to the fact that the original Ohana was made while Ironman was still in TPW and he got help by TPW and got motivated to keep working on the map and submit it to TLMC
I believe Ohana will make a positive addition to the GSL map pool. People respond positively to the idea of a beach map, but Bel'Shir beach failed to produce the quality of games that GSL had hoped for. In addition, with it being a ladder map players and spectators alike will be familiar with its gameplay, making it less likely to be disregarded.
Now to go on a tangent (Sorry Ironman!)
Atlantis Spaceship in its current state is a bad choice for GSL for one relatively minor reason; that being that the aesthetics are purely for looks and actually interfer for many players and spectators alike. While I do not doubt the quality of games that the map produces, my issue stems from the following features:
a. The main bases have no distinct visual cues, nor do any of the other bases. b. The map is fairly complex, but high ground/lowground/ramps have no consistant visual cues to distinguish themselves from other parts of the map. c. The map is fairly dark with a generous use of red lighting, a color which is often very distracting for the eye when there is a lot of action (red is the color the eye is most naturally attracted to). d. The entire map is made out of high-contrast hard-edged textures, this is very jarring and often causes the eye to become distracted.
The Grid (in my opinion) is the pinnacle of functional aesthetics (especially man-made aesthetics). There is a clear distinction between all 3 levels. Ramps are clearly distinguishable. The textures on each level are smooth and complimentary. The use of lit pathways is done in a way that it doesn't actually distract from the action. There is a minimalist use of doodads so that its very easy to discern what parts of the map are playable and which are not. And to top it all off the final product is stunning.
Spaceship was clearly designed aesthetically to look like, well, a spaceship. It was unfortunately not designed to look like a good melee map (no matter how great the layout may be).
I see some nasty TvZ bunkerrushes incoming, when Blizzard removes the neutral depot on ladder. The ramp is shaped to provide good space behind the bunker
On March 19 2012 22:38 Pocky52 wrote: Congrats on GSL, you'll need to update your OP for the tournaments it's been used in! Keep making dem maps, you're obviously not doing too shabby ^^
Edit:
On March 19 2012 20:08 Ragoo wrote:
On March 19 2012 20:05 Johanaz wrote:
Holy Crap! GSL Season 2! Congratz ESV & Ironman
No congratz to TPW?
If you are referring to Atlantis Spaceship, that's actually from LSPrime of Team Crux, though congrats to them as well ^^
I'm referring to the fact that the original Ohana was made while Ironman was still in TPW and he got help by TPW and got motivated to keep working on the map and submit it to TLMC
For one, you weren't in TPW at the time they supported me with the map, so I believe it's wrong for you to consider yourself part of the process (seeing as you mention 'TPW' as a whole). Secondly, I not only thanked TPW in the OP for production help (which should be enough), but I don't see how or why we should run to Chae and tell him to recognize TPW for a map he (or they) chose. Just let it be buddy... Ohana is not a TPW map anymore. I don't know why you guys still care.
On February 14 2012 05:28 IronManSC wrote: LE version of Ohana is now published on NA only as ohanaLEtest 0.2
Changes:
1) Opened up the air space gap between the main and natural (near the minerals) to allow for proper overlord placement scouting. Previously, the gap was too small and no air units could survive while remaining stationary. This is now fixed.
2) Texture touch-ups
3) Fixed water and tree glitches, as well as added in a few more doodads
I could not find this on NA. Is it called something different now? Is it ESV Ohana?
On February 14 2012 05:28 IronManSC wrote: LE version of Ohana is now published on NA only as ohanaLEtest 0.2
Changes:
1) Opened up the air space gap between the main and natural (near the minerals) to allow for proper overlord placement scouting. Previously, the gap was too small and no air units could survive while remaining stationary. This is now fixed.
2) Texture touch-ups
3) Fixed water and tree glitches, as well as added in a few more doodads
I could not find this on NA. Is it called something different now? Is it ESV Ohana?
Never played on this map but I love it allready, I like brightness on maps, which is so rare. I hate the maps like entombed valley and so many more which are just dark and hurt my eyes.
On March 20 2012 06:59 Cosmos wrote: Never played on this map but I love it allready, I like brightness on maps, which is so rare. I hate the maps like entombed valley and so many more which are just dark and hurt my eyes.
I enjoy making maps that express the beauty of nature. Creating beaches, deserts, and the like are my cup of tea. I don't prefer dark maps that make it look like you're in a cave. Every map I create you can expect it to look like noon time in the middle of summer
On March 20 2012 06:59 Cosmos wrote: Never played on this map but I love it allready, I like brightness on maps, which is so rare. I hate the maps like entombed valley and so many more which are just dark and hurt my eyes.
I enjoy making maps that express the beauty of nature. Creating beaches, deserts, and the like are my cup of tea. I don't prefer dark maps that make it look like you're in a cave. Every map I create you can expect it to look like noon time in the middle of summer
God, thats the opposite of me. I am so uncomfortable making natural locales. All of my textures have to have a calculable method of painting. I bet there could probably be something said about left-brained vs right-brained people people in that regard. :-P
On March 20 2012 06:59 Cosmos wrote: Never played on this map but I love it allready, I like brightness on maps, which is so rare. I hate the maps like entombed valley and so many more which are just dark and hurt my eyes.
I enjoy making maps that express the beauty of nature. Creating beaches, deserts, and the like are my cup of tea. I don't prefer dark maps that make it look like you're in a cave. Every map I create you can expect it to look like noon time in the middle of summer
God, thats the opposite of me. I am so uncomfortable making natural locales. All of my textures have to have a calculable method of painting. I bet there could probably be something said about left-brained vs right-brained people people in that regard. :-P
Well i'm left handed, so i'm using the opposite of my brain lol
Is it just me, but whenever I look at the bottom spawn for Ohana my game drops to 45 fps. I'm positive it has something to do with the map since this doesn't happen to me with the top spawn location and this happens to me even if I look at the bottom spawn through fog of war (ie, sending OL scout in zvz)
i ALWAYS have 60 on extreme everything, only exception being 200/200 with mothership and vortex fights.
I want people to be aware that Ohana is being re-textured for ladder to improve overall clarity so that textures are not too dark, too distracting, and too cluttered.
On March 23 2012 16:14 IronManSC wrote: I want people to be aware that Ohana is being re-textured for ladder to improve overall clarity so that textures are not too dark, too distracting, and too cluttered.
any change is made to the GSL one? Or they will just use the latest Ohana LE ?
On March 23 2012 16:14 IronManSC wrote: I want people to be aware that Ohana is being re-textured for ladder to improve overall clarity so that textures are not too dark, too distracting, and too cluttered.
any change is made to the GSL one? Or they will just use the latest Ohana LE ?
I don't know what GSL's plans are for which one they'll use, but I assure you the LE version will be re-textured. GSL and NASL are out of my league on that call.
On March 23 2012 16:14 IronManSC wrote: I want people to be aware that Ohana is being re-textured for ladder to improve overall clarity so that textures are not too dark, too distracting, and too cluttered.
So - you mean it will end up ugly like the usual Blizzard laddermap? :D
On March 23 2012 16:14 IronManSC wrote: I want people to be aware that Ohana is being re-textured for ladder to improve overall clarity so that textures are not too dark, too distracting, and too cluttered.
So - you mean it will end up ugly like the usual Blizzard laddermap? :D
To be completely fair it actually looks better than the dark, jungly, previous version that was more green and blotchy. With this, it's easier to identify the paths, the textures are cleaner and less distracting, and it adds that 'beach' touch back to it instead of a jungle feel. So no, I do not feel that it is ugly but rather... better.
Oh, I'm happy to hear that. I wasn't a fan of the sort of blotchy green texturing. It's good that you think it's better, that makes me pretty confident.
Why is it that now when I look at this map I only see ways of converting it to 6m?
wow looks a lot cleaner. still this map has been through a lot, and ironman congrats dude so jelly. community effort for this map ftw^^
I give a lot of credit to everybody who's been involved in the progression of this map over the many months. Without so much testing and map feedback from other mappers, this map probably wouldn't have made ladder.
wow looks a lot cleaner. still this map has been through a lot, and ironman congrats dude so jelly. community effort for this map ftw^^
I give a lot of credit to everybody who's been involved in the progression of this map over the many months. Without so much testing and map feedback from other mappers, this map probably wouldn't have made ladder.
i hope it does well, and the others too, more community maps make things more diverse. // whats the balance been like for the race matchups so far?
As of March 27, 2012, Ohana has been officially updated to its final version!
The tournament version is now published as ESV Ohana LE, created by IronManSC but authored by ESVMaps. This is what Ohana LE will look like in season 7 - minus the neutral depot.
Overview and aesthetics updated. Now I need a mod to change the title to [M] (2) ESV Ohana LE >.<
grats to how far you've come, ironman. this is excellent. i haven't played much on ohana, but i have watched a lot of NASL. so glad we get a beach-ish map for ladder. i made maps in sc1 just for fun when i was young, and i have played on almost every one of your maps for forever. great work through and through.
On March 28 2012 14:46 IronManSC wrote: This is what Ohana LE will look like in season 7 - minus the neutral depot.
The ladder map will be Ohana LE, but the tournament version will be ESV Ohana LE
Sorry missed that part.
On March 28 2012 20:11 Nimelrian wrote: Why can't Blizzard just leave the neutral depots? WHY?
Simply put they value the pylon block in the same leage as a 6 pool. It is a rush like any other, with added risks aswell, Doesn't need special treatment specificly. Also the depots are too lazy of a solotion for blizz. They could design ramps that covered 5 squares in the bottum or simply nerf the block. They did infact do so a long time ago, so that you never can completely block off with just 2 buildings.
Mappers will go to alot of extremes to make their map balanced. Xelnaga fortress for example had a C4 timer added on the central watchtower because a terrible layout favored terran too much. I think it is fine that blizzard set some conditions for what can be in ladder and what can't
On March 28 2012 20:11 Nimelrian wrote: Why can't Blizzard just leave the neutral depots? WHY?
I think the primary reason is that it's a terran building being used, which can be confusing to those lower level players. If there was another replacement that was pathable, didn't block line of sight, is destructible, and looks as if it belongs to the map and not a player, then I don't think blizzard would mind. Unfortunately there isn't such a thing, just yet. However, I think with the depots being mainstream in tournaments such as GSL and MLG, I would not be surprised if blizzard included a small unit in Heart of the Swarm that blends with the map, and does exactly what the depot does.
I think a good solution would be 'Thick Brush" and "Junk Pile." Simple, Supply Depot sized destructible elements that can be put at the bottom of ramps. I'm sure rocks can already be put at the bottom of ramps at a Supply Depot size, but it would look a little out of place, no matter the theme of the map. I'm sure Blizzard could implement the ideas stated above though.
I heard someone say something about Destructible Grass, I thought I would develop the idea on my own a little.
On March 30 2012 06:46 Praetorial wrote: IronManSC, if you are reading this:
Does Blizzard ever contact you for consultation or advice on your maps and potential changes that could be made to it?
I'm just curious as to how Blizzard treats the developers of the maps it uses for the ladder.
There's been around 50 e-mails back and forth with blizzard to get Ohana ready for ladder. They told me what their SC2 Map Team didn't like, or what needed a change, and I did that. Every change I made resulted in them doing a whole new round of play testing and Q&A, then would e-mail me any other fixes that they thought were "necessary" for ladder.
Well, with the season lock incoming, the 3 new maps, including Ohana, have been uploaded by Blizzard. Of course, for daybreak at least, they messed up the overview pictures... :/
Still, congrats dude! I do have to say your map was probably mangled the least, out of the three, so take some satisfaction from that.
Oh, on the topic of mangling and the whole depot thing, they mentioned potentially using textures to paint unbuildable areas. The idea of texturing in and of itself is kinda stupid, but they are on to something. An idea that could definitely work, I think, is use Rock(small), in a cluster in the unbuildable area. The small rocks don't block pathing, but can easily be used to distinguish an unbuildable area. Alternately, for manmade/space platform maps, deadman's port ground mix, or something similar, can be used. This is all assuming they would actually go for it, but I put a bit of thought into it.
I like how the 4th and 5th are relatively easy to take compared to stupid maps like Antiga or Metalo. It creates a nice late thus forcing players to think ahead instead of epicly failing a bad 2 base timing.
On March 30 2012 06:46 Praetorial wrote: IronManSC, if you are reading this:
Does Blizzard ever contact you for consultation or advice on your maps and potential changes that could be made to it?
I'm just curious as to how Blizzard treats the developers of the maps it uses for the ladder.
There's been around 50 e-mails back and forth with blizzard to get Ohana ready for ladder. They told me what their SC2 Map Team didn't like, or what needed a change, and I did that. Every change I made resulted in them doing a whole new round of play testing and Q&A, then would e-mail me any other fixes that they thought were "necessary" for ladder.
That sounds like a potentially constructive dialogue/approach. Even though I often don't agree with Blizzard, I take some solace in knowing that they are thorough...still, it's hard to believe they've been this thorough with some of their ladder maps.
Hey Ironman can you put the water back in? This map was so much more fun to play on with water. I practiced on it the other day and sorely disappointed to see no water.
On March 30 2012 06:46 Praetorial wrote: IronManSC, if you are reading this:
Does Blizzard ever contact you for consultation or advice on your maps and potential changes that could be made to it?
I'm just curious as to how Blizzard treats the developers of the maps it uses for the ladder.
There's been around 50 e-mails back and forth with blizzard to get Ohana ready for ladder. They told me what their SC2 Map Team didn't like, or what needed a change, and I did that. Every change I made resulted in them doing a whole new round of play testing and Q&A, then would e-mail me any other fixes that they thought were "necessary" for ladder.
That is very ironic. Blizzard throws together maps like Slag Pits, or Lost Temple with the droppable cliffs overlooking the natural, that are absolute trash on ladder, then takes a good map and demands "necessary" changes. The map was fine as it was for ladder (I played on it in multiple tournaments, including the original TLMC Open). Doesn't surprise me that most ladder maps are gone from tournaments.
On March 31 2012 00:20 IronManSC wrote: ilike the rivers too dude but blizz won't let me. They'll take it off ladder if I do...
Didn't they make you take it off because of performance issues on some computers or what was the deal with that?
Yes. Ladder is full of players with a wide range of computers; from terrible machines to state of the art. For a map to work on ladder, it had to be smooth from level to level on the terrain so even bad computers can handle it. That's why in tournaments, maps look supremely better, because tournament players have good computers.
It's kind of dumb really. This is StarCraft 2 .... 2012... why do people still use computers from 2000? If people were on top of this I probably could've kept the rivers. I don't blame blizzard, I blame people who think it's fine and dandy to run SC2 off a 10-year old computer. They are the ones who limit me -_-
Why doesn't Blizzard just tie the water to some graphic setting, so people with bad computers can just turn it off?
That would be an "unnecessary" change in the eyes of Blizzard though I'm sure, they are too busy working adding more destructible rocks to Incineration Zone so it can return to the ladder.
On March 31 2012 01:41 BronzeKnee wrote: Why doesn't Blizzard just tie the water to some graphic setting, so people with bad computers can just turn it off?
That would be an "unnecessary" change in the eyes of Blizzard though I'm sure, they are too busy working adding more destructible rocks to Incineration Zone so it can return to the ladder.
Because then you face the issue of the terrain not being "smooth from level to level" as they wanted. They also noted to me that it needed to be smooth to avoid building placements that caused the terrain to be jagged or glitched.
Before I removed the rivers, I had asked them if I could keep them, but make the water unbuildable, yet still pathable. They said no because it would confuse players about what they can and cannot build on. It didn't make much sense to me because who would make a building in the middle of the map other than a pylon? But... hey, everything done in the map editor is owned by them so I don't really have a choice.
Suggestion to zerg players when playing ZvT on this map, do not expand to the natural third. It's extremely hard (maybe impossible against the right Terrans) to hold off siege tank+marine pushes there because of the high ground that leads into it. Terrans basically siege their tanks on the edges of that high ground and slow push into that base which is extremely hard to engage on with lings and banelings. I'd say play an aggressive two base style to get map control first or just expand to the base parallel to the main.
On March 30 2012 08:21 Corsica wrote: Map should be renamed to Zergana...
You cant be serious
Well, they call metalopolis a zegapolis why not?
Guess we should have Terran Shipyard, Terran Plateau, Terran Valley, Terran Caverns, Terran Beach and all manner of others then.
Such naming nonsense is stupid.
I'm looking forward to seeing Ohana have even more exposure, liked it a lot since I first saw it months ago.
haha bravo! :D also add Zergie Sight
Don't derail the purpose of this thread please. This is most definitely not a zerg map so far. If you are calling it a zerg map because it's open around the center, it is very clear you have never seen this map in action and you've probably never played it. Such people only judge maps by the overview.
I was initially skeptical about the whole beach thing, but on playing it, the aesthetics really made my day. The map is also incredibly fun to play on. Congratulations on all the achievements this map has reaped, it deserved them!
On March 31 2012 01:33 IronManSC wrote: It's kind of dumb really. This is StarCraft 2 .... 2012... why do people still use computers from 2000? If people were on top of this I probably could've kept the rivers. I don't blame blizzard, I blame people who think it's fine and dandy to run SC2 off a 10-year old computer. They are the ones who limit me -_-
I don't think this is the entire point.. I find low settings much better for viewing purposes in a competitive environment(similar to FPS gaming - NO ONE runs highest setting because all of the eye candy takes away from the ability to actually play at a high level.
On March 31 2012 01:33 IronManSC wrote: It's kind of dumb really. This is StarCraft 2 .... 2012... why do people still use computers from 2000? If people were on top of this I probably could've kept the rivers. I don't blame blizzard, I blame people who think it's fine and dandy to run SC2 off a 10-year old computer. They are the ones who limit me -_-
I don't think this is the entire point.. I find low settings much better for viewing purposes in a competitive environment(similar to FPS gaming - NO ONE runs highest setting because all of the eye candy takes away from the ability to actually play at a high level.
Very pretty map regardless
I'm the same way. My computer is able to do ultra just fine, but I play on low since it's less distracting. Plus, getting 80-120 fps is kinda nice too...
I was a little skeptical at first, but now I'm a huge fan of this map. I have had some epic games on ladder already. Mech is very fun and seems very powerful on this map. I know you put tons of work into this. Thank you!
Ladder versions? Does that mean no depots and close spawn antiga and entombed? We need to know more. Personally i would love a tournement to take that step, but as a startup for proleage? Well this is going to be intresting.
Now that this thread popped up again, i'm curious. Does Blizzard plan on making small changes to maps during season changes? and if so would they let you? Now that the map has had so much exposure and testing i'm sure you have some statistics that you could use to further balance it (not that it isn't balanced, I personally find PvP PvZ and PvT to be pretty 50/50 on this map, which is all I can speak for).
On May 10 2012 22:10 Sumadin wrote: Ladder versions? Does that mean no depots and close spawn antiga and entombed?
LE - ladder edition, so yes, that means no depot I'm afraid, unless they're lying to us
On May 10 2012 23:17 Gl!tch wrote: Now that this thread popped up again, i'm curious. Does Blizzard plan on making small changes to maps during season changes? and if so would they let you? Now that the map has had so much exposure and testing i'm sure you have some statistics that you could use to further balance it (not that it isn't balanced, I personally find PvP PvZ and PvT to be pretty 50/50 on this map, which is all I can speak for).
Blizzard did mention to one of the other mappers on ESV (monitor/superouman) that changes would be allowed between seasons, but we don't know for sure when that's available to us or if they're really going to change it. The fact that they mentioned it gives a good chance.
As far as balancing Ohana, this is a very cautious thing I have to do, as now I can kind of understand blizzard when they balance the game. If there was anything I would consider changing, it would be to remove the destructible rocks at the 4ths, since they serve more as an offensive tool and serve no defensive purposes whatsoever, which explains why players (zergs especially), break them down early enough to avoid getting choked up there.
Well, while Zergs have had trouble on this map, they are also being buffed with the overlord speed and queen range now. It's hard to say what big of an effect that will have, but I think it's difficult to pinpoint any balance changes to be made now.
However, I fully support removal of the rocks at the fourth. I think generally they emphasize 3-base play too much. You've said that a concept in Ohana is sort of an easy third base and more difficult fourth, but I'm not a big fan of that, as it seems like it's playing to the weaknesses of SC2. The game is already designed in a way that it has a bit of a 3-base cap issue, and I don't really like how Ohana emphasizes that, it's not great for gameplay and makes it hard for Zerg. The only downside to making the fourth a bit easier, that I can see, would be problems with players taking all four bases quite quickly and then running out of bases, seeing as there's only five per player. I don't think that's too big of a deal, though.
On May 11 2012 03:14 Gfire wrote: Well, while Zergs have had trouble on this map, they are also being buffed with the overlord speed and queen range now. It's hard to say what big of an effect that will have, but I think it's difficult to pinpoint any balance changes to be made now.
However, I fully support removal of the rocks at the fourth. I think generally they emphasize 3-base play too much. You've said that a concept in Ohana is sort of an easy third base and more difficult fourth, but I'm not a big fan of that, as it seems like it's playing to the weaknesses of SC2. The game is already designed in a way that it has a bit of a 3-base cap issue, and I don't really like how Ohana emphasizes that, it's not great for gameplay and makes it hard for Zerg. The only downside to making the fourth a bit easier, that I can see, would be problems with players taking all four bases quite quickly and then running out of bases, seeing as there's only five per player. I don't think that's too big of a deal, though.
This does not remove the prime purpose of this map's concept design, which is designed to create aggressive macro play. Taking three bases will always be easy. You will always have to fight over your 4th and/or 5th bases to maintain a steady economic advantage over your opponent. On most maps, you can sit back on 5 or 6 bases, while your opponent is on 3 or 4. That's a compromise. On Ohana, you have to be aggressive to come out on top, and that's produced a lot of great games, even TvZ!
Oh yeah, I really like how you have to fight for a fourth base. It's a nice change of pace. I think the rocks make it harder to take and defend, while it's forward position makes it easy to assault for the opponent. I guess, potentially, the rocks might discourage players from taking it in the first place, which actually discourages fighting. I could be wrong, but removing the rocks might increase both aggression and macro play.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GOCJ5.jpg)
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& ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nGkVp.jpg)
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Although it's possible that Ohana RE will be used by NASL in season 3.
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