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Active: 564 users

[D] map size, compared to BW - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
September 14 2010 00:17 GMT
#21
A big problem I had when making my Python remake was getting both the islands and the mains to be untankable. I changed the map size to 144x144 but it was still pretty difficult since i didn't spread the map all the way to the edges. Python might be a bad example though since the middle is so big.

My Grand Line remake is also 144x144 but I used almost the full map size. The whole thing felt REALLY big. It shouldn't be a problem in that map but any bigger and I think it tends to get uncomfortable.
CounteR
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand103 Posts
September 14 2010 01:41 GMT
#22
Yeah this is a great thread and I agree with the map sizes .. Maps just feel to small in SC2..
GG GL HF
butter
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States785 Posts
September 14 2010 08:29 GMT
#23
There are so many distance references available, and of course they are all out of proportion relative to BW. Especially if you talk about travel times, you need to pick a time scale as well. For example, consider the distance that a probe moves across the map in the time that it takes a barracks to build, or the distance an overlord moves in the time it takes a zealot to build, etc. If (Wiki)Blood Bath is too short, is (Wiki)Desert Oasis too long? How would we know?

Another difficulty in porting BW maps is the mismatch between the pseudo-isometric 27° angled ramps (and bridges!) in BW and the 0/90/45° ramps in SC2. So for example, if you want to preserve the width of a ramp, you can end up unintentionally changing the area behind it, or vice versa. I suspect Blizzard did it this way because someone thought it would be cute to interpret the purely aesthetic isometric tiles as 3D (when really units move in screen space), but imagine if maps looked like this...

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
TL should have a minigame where you have to destroy some rocks before you can make a new post – DentalFloss
k10forgotten
Profile Joined September 2010
Brazil260 Posts
September 19 2010 06:41 GMT
#24
There's something that I noticed in the making of the Paranoid Android port: most of the buildings (Terran buildings, anyway) are 1 unit "taller" in SC2. For example, bunker is 3x2 (X axis,Y axis) in BW, but it is 3x3 in SC2. But that's not just one building, there are a lot of buildings that changed (but some remained with the same size, as pylon and missile turret). Most notable: the main buildings (CC, Nexus and Hatchery) - from 4x3 to 5x5. (That fucked up my first attempt, as I used CC to measure the area of construction...)

My point: making a port of a BW map to SC2 is a pain. You want the same area of construction, and the same safety from tanks... But those things changed, and in order to make it decently fair to the original area, the map should be taller. A square map, as Paranoid Android, is better ported with a tall-retangle map in with the same width but the height must be 1.5x the original's.

And when you think that it is over creating the same area of construction, then come the tanks... After the tanks, you want to see if the distances are equal (I used the SC2 Map Analyzer), if the map is near something balanced... Oh dear. D: That's when the real pain begins, because you don't want to change many things, to deform the map, but hardly it will not need serious changes. D:
I fear no enemy, for the Khala is my strength! I fear not death, for our strength is eternal.
Pistolfied
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada79 Posts
September 19 2010 09:06 GMT
#25
I agree that scaling in sc2 is just... off. I had a really hard time making my maps feel right and they still don't feel how I want them to. Another problem I've noticed is that any large map that is made is heavily protoss favoured. Why? Because protoss has warpgates which allows them to keep constant pressure on anywhere in the map whereas both zerg and terran have to reinforce from their bases. Protoss gains a gigantic mobility boost the large a map gets if they put up pylons everywhere they go...
Stop saying anywayS, it's anyway, not anyway>>S<<. Anyways is not a word!!!
dimfish
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States663 Posts
September 19 2010 11:26 GMT
#26
On September 19 2010 18:06 Pistolfied wrote:
I agree that scaling in sc2 is just... off. I had a really hard time making my maps feel right and they still don't feel how I want them to. Another problem I've noticed is that any large map that is made is heavily protoss favoured. Why? Because protoss has warpgates which allows them to keep constant pressure on anywhere in the map whereas both zerg and terran have to reinforce from their bases. Protoss gains a gigantic mobility boost the large a map gets if they put up pylons everywhere they go...


I don't think this is true. Zerg benefit from a big map in different ways than Protoss; a larger map usually means longer rush distance, so Zerg can literally wait until the last second to raise an army in response to an attack. Also Nydus Worm gets more awesome with a bigger map, making it easier to expand all over and be able to defend it well.

We won't really know how big is too big until Blizzard makes a really huge map, or the community embraces more custom maps.
homeless_guy
Profile Joined June 2005
United States321 Posts
September 19 2010 14:19 GMT
#27
I definitely agree many of the current ladder maps are too small. The point about natural expansions pushing bases toward the middle of the map is also a good one. Stepps for example is so small. As T, by the time you take your natural it is a very quick walk to just siege up the entire middle of the map. I know most people hate Kulas (because it is tank on cliff nightmare?) but ont of the reasons I enjoy the map is because it is so large and there are different routes etc. Conversely, I played a few 3v3 matches where the map was confusingly large.

Any suggestions for great maps that are currently not in the ladder pool?

Also, Blizz is planning on adding new maps when they patch later this week?
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