EPTPower Rank 11/10/2008 - Page 5
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
Jaedong is really really high up for how awful he did last month. Losing to Free, losing to Stork, going 3-2 in ZvZ vs very questionable opponents outside of Yarnc. Firefirst and Child are gimmes, losing to Roro is pretty unacceptable for having the best zvz in history but hey stuff happens; Shark may or may not have a good zvz but I'm guessing it's the latter. Free certainly played fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Jaedong in good form a couple months ago stomped all over him. And then losing to Stork, who lost to LUXURY in the FINALS (Luxury=biggest post-Midas choker, at least in ZvP). Is this appeasement to hold off the rampant Jaedong fanboys or what? The logic doesn't add up at all. If JD had been dominating at his old level back in early 08/late 07 then yeah this would've made complete sense to keep him high, but while he's been playing quite well over the summer/fall it's not nearly at that old level. Getting raped by an on-fire ForGG, owning a slumping Flash, losing to Han, and winning WCG against players who can't PvZ (where he owned Free 2-0) still deserved #1 when ForGG went invisible but it was a shaky #1. Now he loses to Free, loses to Stork, loses random games v Z/P, and makes a nice move vs Flash. That doesn't deserve a 4th whatsoever, especially in a month where a very large number of people are excelling. I like Jaedong and wish he had won WCG/MSL, but his play this month is just awful. When Bisu did this badly back when he was being considered for Bonjwa he got dropped from 1st (Losing to Mind but beating a strong Savior) to 2nd (after losing to Stork horribly and barely beating Upmagic) to 7th (failing MSL to Jaedong/Yarnc while doing ok in Proleague/OSL), and Bisu was dominating far far harder than Jaedong in the previous months. The last time Jangbi cherrypicked his way to MSL semis in the easiest bracket in history (GOM 4) he didn't get ranked and didn't even get a CBNC, going 6-1 against an equally creampuff list of opponents. Now he gets 5th when several other players are proving themselves vs much better competition??? I'd even consider putting Kal above Jangbi because despite the record difference, Kal beat STORK, even if Stork was in hardcore practice for OSL finals, Kal still played really nicely. Jangbi's MSL run this time looks to have an edge on his last one with an even easier list of opponents (Orion and Upmagic vs Memory and Yarnc ZvP; wow that's a tough pick of which is easier but Upmagic was probably better than Yarnc's vP), and ironically he is meeting Kal again in the semis. Going 9-1 is great sure and he definitely belongs up there (as he did last month too) but anything higher than 7-8th is really questionable. Best and Flash have done a lot better than him comparatively, and Fantasy has proved himself against MUCH MUCH better competition. While Flash in the last PR really sucked and only got a justified 6th because nobody else was playing well (unlike this month where so many people are playing well), now stays at 6th again despite playing really well after his embarassing,but deserved; not a BO loss by any means, to Jaedong. He was stupid against GGplay game 1 who did a nice mech counter, but really didn't deserve to lose game 3 at all. It wouldn't have been much luck if Flash left his vultures on top of a mine and they just died when a ling hit them, but that mine got dragged several screens and hit moving vultures! Now Flash is on an 8-0! streak, unquestionably has the best TvT right now, and is proleague leader. His opponents list isn't particularly great outside Fantasy, where Flash played very very well. Whether he is better than Best is up in the air as he has barely played any non-TvTs recently, but he is definitely outperforming Jangbi/Jaedong and is again holding KTF in the top 3. I really dislike Best for being a boring, mechanical protoss and hope he loses, but he got shafted rather unfairly here. There is reasonable justification to put him over Flash even (and certainly Jaedong/Jangbi). Let's see, he rapes Midas who didn't look too bad before that, loses to the only person who could beat him PvP, Stork, with a great series (although his lack of planning/thinking clearly showed). He still can't win vs Zerg at all (where he is 3-3 vs baddies besides Jaedong), but his PvT/PvP, outside of his Stork series, are 9-1 vs a pretty reasonable competition (Midas, Kal, Tempest, Pusan...maybe Much? Is he sucking now?) and is proleague #2. Just like with ForGG, this guy got screwed by being matched up against Stork. He may be a 2 matchup wonder but his PvT/PvP are #2, behind Stork (might be able to make an argument for Bisu; he's rather untested though). That really deserves higher than a 7. I think Kal deserves higher than Jangbi but honestly that can go either way. It really comes down to, how much is beating a Stork practicing for PvT OSL finals for? Yeah he would've lost if it was groups C/D, but you can't exactly count that against him, just not for him. He clearly didn't beat Godmode Stork, but it's not at all like Stork played bad. Kal definitely played a lot smarter than Best did and is clearly a stronger series player. But he's so ugh outside of series. Rather like a Mind. Fantasy however, had by far the hardest schedule besides Stork. Yeah he went 14-13, but his list of competitors and his own play was still top of the line: Flash, Stork, GGplay's ZvT, Mind. He showed some extremely impressive thinking and took Stork 2-3. His one downside is his lackluster proleague play. He did lose to Flash when Flash played very very well, lost to a well-played all-in by Effort, but losing to Saint/Tester is pretty poor and why he could be argued to be placed below Jaedong. But since being controversial might not get this big post ignored I'll put him above. IMO for ForGG's explanation you should've put that he was knocked out of MSL/WCG Korea to the #1 Stork. While there is certainly argument that Luxury deserved this with a WCG gold, strong proleague performance, and overcoming his horrible choking, I agree that ForGG deserved it more since if not for super lame brackets, he could've went quite far. He's the opposite of Jangbi really. So to sum up: 1 Stork 2 Bisu 3 Free 4 Flash 5 Best 6 Fantasy 7 Jaedong 8 Kal 9 Jangbi 10 ForGG | ||
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
His month was much worse than flash's and jangbi is in the semifinals. I'd put jaedong and best on the same level, tied for 7th. Both are solid players, but they had bad months. On the other hand, flash is playing amazingly in the proleague again and deserves a higher spot. I know people don't love flash, but I can't understand why there's so much bias against him. No real complaints otherwise. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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Ry-Masta-T
United States478 Posts
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 16:03 Ver wrote: I disagree with a lot of this, and outside of the godawful first one I've rarely had any major qualms with a PR . The top 3 are certainly right anyone questioning them is pretty insane (I've never liked Stork but he's shown some pretty intelligent play and definitely deserves this so much after so long), but everything below there is justified with really shaky reasoning. In order... Jaedong is really really high up for how awful he did last month. Losing to Free, losing to Stork, going 3-2 in ZvZ vs very questionable opponents outside of Yarnc. Firefirst and Child are gimmes, losing to Roro is pretty unacceptable for having the best zvz in history but hey stuff happens; Shark may or may not have a good zvz but I'm guessing it's the latter. Free certainly played fine, but it doesn't change the fact that Jaedong in good form a couple months ago stomped all over him. And then losing to Stork, who lost to LUXURY in the FINALS (Luxury=biggest post-Midas choker, at least in ZvP). Is this appeasement to hold off the rampant Jaedong fanboys or what? The logic doesn't add up at all. Jaedong lost to Free, Jaedong lost to Stork. He's below both of them. I do agree, however, that Jaedong could possibly be placed one or two spots lower, maybe even below Flash. But I think he is fine where he is now. Only Jangbi and Flash could make a case for being higher. Of course both of them played better than Jaedong, but I am giving Jaedong some benefit of doubt and being generous on the former #1. If JD had been dominating at his old level back in early 08/late 07 then yeah this would've made complete sense to keep him high, but while he's been playing quite well over the summer/fall it's not nearly at that old level. Getting raped by an on-fire ForGG, owning a slumping Flash, losing to Han, and winning WCG against players who can't PvZ (where he owned Free 2-0) still deserved #1 when ForGG went invisible but it was a shaky #1. Now he loses to Free, loses to Stork, loses random games v Z/P, and makes a nice move vs Flash. That doesn't deserve a 4th whatsoever, especially in a month where a very large number of people are excelling. I like Jaedong and wish he had won WCG/MSL, but his play this month is just awful. When Bisu did this badly back when he was being considered for Bonjwa he got dropped from 1st (Losing to Mind but beating a strong Savior) to 2nd (after losing to Stork horribly and barely beating Upmagic) to 7th (failing MSL to Jaedong/Yarnc while doing ok in Proleague/OSL), and Bisu was dominating far far harder than Jaedong in the previous months. We all know it was a bad month for Jaedong, but neither did he play bad enough to be placed lower, nor did others below him show enough to surpass him. Look, I dislike Jaedong and would have loved to put him lower. But I don't think losses to fire-mode Free and Stork AREN'T THAT BAD. It's like a paradox for me: I can see Flash being higher than Jaedong, but Flash cannot above Jangbi. The last time Jangbi cherrypicked his way to MSL semis in the easiest bracket in history (GOM 4) he didn't get ranked and didn't even get a CBNC, going 6-1 against an equally creampuff list of opponents. Now he gets 5th when several other players are proving themselves vs much better competition??? I'd even consider putting Kal above Jangbi because despite the record difference, Kal beat STORK, even if Stork was in hardcore practice for OSL finals, Kal still played really nicely. I disagree. I value Jangbi going undefeated in MSL more than Kal beating Stork 3-2, when the guy was probably barely even practicing. Jangbi's MSL run this time looks to have an edge on his last one with an even easier list of opponents (Orion and Upmagic vs Memory and Yarnc ZvP; wow that's a tough pick of which is easier but Upmagic was probably better than Yarnc's vP), and ironically he is meeting Kal again in the semis. Going 9-1 is great sure and he definitely belongs up there (as he did last month too) but anything higher than 7-8th is really questionable. Best and Flash have done a lot better than him comparatively, and Fantasy has proved himself against MUCH MUCH better competition. Fantasy proved himself last month, but not this month. All he has been doing is losing, while Jangbi has been winning non stop. I understand the competition isn't as strong as it could be, but reaching semifinals without a single loss is a feat that should be valued. He is a semifinalist, Flash is not. Jangbi has a lot more to practice for, yet he is playing very well in Proleague, too. Why in the world would you put BeSt above Jangbi in this month's Power Rank? He lost pretty badly to Stork in his best by far matchup of PvP, as well as Tempest. Jangbi should be above these guys, no question. Now Flash is on an 8-0! streak, unquestionably has the best TvT right now, and is proleague leader. His opponents list isn't particularly great outside Fantasy, where Flash played very very well. Whether he is better than Best is up in the air as he has barely played any non-TvTs recently, but he is definitely outperforming Jangbi/Jaedong and is again holding KTF in the top 3. I am fine with Flash over Jaedong, but not Flash over Jangbi. Jangbi has been leading Samsung just like Flash has been. While Flash has played more and won more in Proleague, that's because he is not in any individual leagues. Both are doing well in Proleague, but Jangbi is undefeated on his way so far to the MSL semis, while Flash was eliminated much earlier. I really dislike Best for being a boring, mechanical protoss and hope he loses, but he got shafted rather unfairly here. There is reasonable justification to put him over Flash even (and certainly Jaedong/Jangbi). Let's see, he rapes Midas who didn't look too bad before that, loses to the only person who could beat him PvP, Stork, with a great series (although his lack of planning/thinking clearly showed). He still can't win vs Zerg at all (where he is 3-3 vs baddies besides Jaedong), but his PvT/PvP, outside of his Stork series, are 9-1 vs a pretty reasonable competition (Midas, Kal, Tempest, Pusan...maybe Much? Is he sucking now?) and is proleague #2. Just like with ForGG, this guy got screwed by being matched up against Stork. He may be a 2 matchup wonder but his PvT/PvP are #2, behind Stork (might be able to make an argument for Bisu; he's rather untested though). That really deserves higher than a 7. No, he doesn't. Him beating down Midas counted towards the previous ranking, so it does not take part in this one. All BeSt has done this month is to lose to Stork in his BEST matchup, where he had a 16 winning streak. He was favored to win, in my opinion. Yet he lost 1-3. His win vs Pusan is great, but other than that he beat the terrible Shark and slumping Much. Then he loses to Tempest. There is no way in hell BeSt should be higher than where he is. I think Kal deserves higher than Jangbi but honestly that can go either way. It really comes down to, how much is beating a Stork practicing for PvT OSL finals for? Yeah he would've lost if it was groups C/D, but you can't exactly count that against him, just not for him. He clearly didn't beat Godmode Stork, but it's not at all like Stork played bad. Kal definitely played a lot smarter than Best did and is clearly a stronger series player. But he's so ugh outside of series. Rather like a Mind. Already gave my opinion on this up somewhere. I strongly disagree. Fantasy however, had by far the hardest schedule besides Stork. Yeah he went 14-13, but his list of competitors and his own play was still top of the line: Flash, Stork, GGplay's ZvT, Mind. He showed some extremely impressive thinking and took Stork 2-3. His one downside is his lackluster proleague play. He did lose to Flash when Flash played very very well, lost to a well-played all-in by Effort, but losing to Saint/Tester is pretty poor and why he could be argued to be placed below Jaedong. But since being controversial might not get this big post ignored I'll put him above. FanTasy hasn't done anything this month, and the only reason why he is staying on here is that he gave Stork a pretty good series. Summary of Fantasy this month = lose to stork, spanked by flash, lose more in Proleague. #9, be satisfied. 1 Stork 2 Bisu 3 Free 4 Flash 5 Best 6 Fantasy 7 Jaedong 8 Kal 9 Jangbi 10 ForGG 1 Stork 2 Bisu 3 Free 4/5 Jangbi/Flash 6 Jaedong 7 Best 8 Kal 9 Fantasy 10 forGG is the most altered list I can agree with you on. To sum it up, I would be fine with Jaedong lower. Nothing else though. | ||
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TarsTarkas
United States169 Posts
Here are his last 10 games, according to TLPD: + Show Spoiler + + 08-11-03 Shinhan Proleague .. (Jungle World) Chupung-Ryeong (P)  Much Win + 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Twilight) Medusa (Z)  YellOw[ArnC] Win + 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Twilight) Byzantium 2 (Z) YellOw[ArnC] Win + 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Badlands) Destination (Z) YellOw[ArnC] Win + 08-10-27 Shinhan Proleague .. (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z) hyvaa Loss + 08-10-25 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Jungle World) Athena 2 (T)  Memory Win + 08-10-20 Shinhan Proleague .. (Badlands) Destination (P) Pure Win + 08-10-18 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Badlands) Destination (T) Memory Win + 08-10-07 Shinhan Proleague .. (Twilight) Medusa (Z) YellOw[ArnC] WinNow, this is an impressive record. But... the only player who has a good vP on that list is Pure. 40% of these wins come from fake yellow! His road through the MSL has been tediously easy. He has yet to have any significant amount of pressure put on him - Memory and Yarnc??? Come on. Now Jangbi is good, don't get me wrong. But I think he should be below Flash, with BeSt and Kal. I would even put him below those two. Kal's path to MSL semifinals: Iris ---> Stork. This is much much tougher. His games against Iris were terrible, but the series against Stork should put him above Jangbi by its self. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 16:46 TarsTarkas wrote: The only thing I disagree with is Jangbi's placement. Why so high? Here are his last 10 games, according to TLPD: + Show Spoiler + + 08-11-03 Shinhan Proleague .. (Jungle World) Chupung-Ryeong (P) Much Win + 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Twilight) Medusa (Z) YellOw[ArnC] Win + 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Twilight) Byzantium 2 (Z) YellOw[ArnC] Win + 08-11-01 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Badlands) Destination (Z) YellOw[ArnC] Win + 08-10-27 Shinhan Proleague .. (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z) hyvaa Loss + 08-10-25 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Jungle World) Athena 2 (T) Memory Win + 08-10-20 Shinhan Proleague .. (Badlands) Destination (P) Pure Win + 08-10-18 ClubDay 2008 MSL (Badlands) Destination (T) Memory Win + 08-10-07 Shinhan Proleague .. (Twilight) Medusa (Z) YellOw[ArnC] WinNow, this is an impressive record. But... the only player who has a good vP on that list is Pure. 40% of these wins come from fake yellow! His road through the MSL has been tediously easy. He has yet to have any significant amount of pressure put on him - Memory and Yarnc??? Come on. Now Jangbi is good, don't get me wrong. But I think he should be below Flash, with BeSt and Kal. I would even put him below those two. Kal's path to MSL semifinals: Iris ---> Stork. This is much much tougher. His games against Iris were terrible, but the series against Stork should put him above Jangbi by its self. I think I said earlier than I value Jangbi's path to the semis without a single loss and his impressive PL record more than Kal's 3-2 victory over Stork, who had to play in the finals like two days later. Kal's lackluster Proleague showings don't help either. Jangbi should definitely be above Kal. Flash has been playing great, with some solid TvT wins. However, Jangbi's cruise to the MSL semis and still keeping up in Proleague means more to me. Had Flash at least made it to the quarters of MSL, he would be above Jangbi. All Flash had to do was focus and practice for Proleague, which would certainly help him perform better. | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8090 Posts
Jangbi should be 4th imo, hes dominated PL and msl and has a shot at his first title Flash should be higher, no.1 proleauge and he just raped fantasy in gom who is clamed to have the best TvT On November 10 2008 16:41 OneOther wrote: 1 Stork 2 Bisu 3 Free 4/5 Jangbi/Flash 6 Jaedong 7 Best 8 Kal 9 Fantasy 10 forGG This is good but i dont understand why JD is so high, and why Lux isnt on the list EDIT: JD lower, Flash/Jangbi Higher This is how i'd do it 1 Stork 2 Bisu 3 Free 4 Jangbi 5 Flash 6 Kal 7 Fantasy 8 Jaedong 9 Best 10 Luxury Forgg hasent done more than lux, or calm for that matter, he got knocked outta msl and has only gone 4-1, which is worse than calm or lux | ||
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TarsTarkas
United States169 Posts
On November 10 2008 16:52 OneOther wrote: I think I said earlier than I value Jangbi's path to the semis without a single loss and his impressive PL record more than Kal's 3-2 victory over Stork, who had to play in the finals like two days later. Kal's lackluster Proleague showings don't help either. Jangbi should definitely be above Kal. Flash has been playing great, with some solid TvT wins. However, Jangbi's cruise to the MSL semis and still keeping up in Proleague means more to me. Had Flash at least made it to the quarters of MSL, he would be above Jangbi. All Flash had to do was focus and practice for Proleague, which would certainly help him perform better. I guess I am fine with Flash being below Jangbi. What I am not fine with is Kal being so far below him - I think at most Kal should be one spot below. But then Kal would have to be above flash, which only marginally works out. Still - Jangbi is undefeated in the MSL, yes, but it would have been embarrassing had he lost to either fake yellow or Memory even once. Still, that is a decent feat. Keeping up in Proleague is good though. Damn this power rank thing is difficult. I really thing that Kal and Jangbi ought to have the same number, but that isnt feasable. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17727 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:09 Scaramanga wrote: Idk why jaedong is up so high, he has higher expectations than anyone else and played so poorly this past month, he's only 6-3 in PL which although is good, he should be higher, he got knocked outta MSL pretty poorly Jangbi should be 4th imo, hes dominated PL and msl and has a shot at his first title Flash should be higher, no.1 proleauge and he just raped fantasy in gom who is clamed to have the best TvT This is good but i dont understand why JD is so high, and why Lux isnt on the list I can't see Jaedong any lower than 6th, below Jangbi and Flash. Players below him haven't done enough to overtake his spot. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:16 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Oneother vs all That's basically what it is, haha. I find it really interesting though - EVERYONE has different opinions. Some people believe the ranking is perfect, some think Jangbi is placed way too high, some say Jangbi should be even higher, and so much more. Lesson I have learned: I gotta stick to what I believe in, because I can't satisfy everyone anyway. | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8090 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:18 OneOther wrote: I can't see Jaedong any lower than 6th, below Jangbi and Flash. Players below him haven't done enough to overtake his spot. Honestly i think that lux > jaedong Jaedong lost msl where lux has won wcg, even if jd is higher than lux, idk what forgg has done to be better than lux imo EDIT: only problem with this PR, lux not here | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:23 Scaramanga wrote: Honestly i think that lux > jaedong Jaedong lost msl where lux has won wcg, even if jd is higher than lux, idk what forgg has done to be better than lux imo I agree Luxury and forGG are very close. I had initially put Lux, but changed to forGG last minute after evaluating each player's Proleague record. forGG has beaten some very good players in ace matches, and Luxury does not measure up to that. Although Lux did a great job beating Stork in the WCG finals..I am not putting much weight on it. The maps are outdated, heavily Zerg favored, and the players were probably unprepared. It's obviously vastly different from a a real progaming match setup. | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8090 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:27 OneOther wrote: I agree Luxury and forGG are very close. I had initially put Lux, but changed to forGG last minute after evaluating each player's Proleague record. forGG has beaten some very good players in ace matches, and Luxury does not measure up to that. Although Lux did a great job beating Stork in the WCG finals..I am not putting much weight on it. The maps are outdated, heavily Zerg favored, and the players were probably unprepared. It's obviously vastly different from a a real progaming match setup. I dont think that forgg has a better pl record, they have both beaten keke, funny, forgg has beaten mind but lux has beaten much and calm Forgg bombed outta msl but yeah thats my only problem | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 10 2008 17:41 Scaramanga wrote: I dont think that forgg has a better pl record, they have both beaten keke, funny, forgg has beaten mind but lux has beaten much and calm Forgg bombed outta msl but yeah thats my only problem Why are you even bringing up MSL if forGG did far better than Luxury? forGG put up a good fight verses the number one Stork and lost 1-2 in the Round of 16. Not exactly "bombed out." Like I said, Lux and forGG are very close. forGG beat TvT beasts Mind and Canata. Only notable win of Luxury is against Calm. They are both doing well in Proleague. It just depends on how much weight you put on Lux winning the WCG Gold. I personally don't think it means much, and I would pick forGG over Lux to play for me in Proleague any day. Again, I don't see why forGG's loss to Stork in MSL is such a problem when Lux didn't even make it that far. | ||
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