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On November 25 2012 09:52 mhael wrote:
That "All I do is Stim" video is SO funny. thanks!
That is from way back in the Terran imba days, fond memories.
RE balancing, The fungal changes to Psionic should be interesting, I am not sure I am behind it 100% but I know that the infestor needs some adjustment and had not heard this solution before. I hope some major organizations do some ZvX show matches on the test map for shits and giggles, to look at some of the changes.
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On November 25 2012 09:52 mhael wrote:
That "All I do is Stim" video is SO funny. thanks!
No problem.
Stuff like that needs to be shared x)
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and everytime i blow up all your buildings - all my ladder points go up!
Now Im addicted to this stupid song - thanks a lot!!!
RE balancing, I am really interested to see if this gets implemented, because I dont play much - I watch GSL like a fanboy; and right now I am bored with the games due to the imba.
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On November 24 2012 12:38 LowEloPlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 11:13 merinerkongprine wrote:On November 23 2012 09:21 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote:On November 23 2012 08:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
These changes are much needed to nerf the impossible to kill zerg late game army. GGlords and winfestors got their nicknames for a reason. Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. Yeah, sorry man, Ive never heard a caster or anyone else use those terms until right now.. Ive also never heard casters use gglords or winfestors either I've heard tons of casters and people use the term. Also, even Artosis and Tasteless (the former of which has become a figure that never complains about balance ever) laughed in agreement when somebody told him the collective noun for a group of brood lords is a "GG" of brood lords
so what Ive been laughing at really racist jokes, but im certainly not a racist...
The zerg lategame army is extremely expensive, Instead of straight up nerfing it, making the game quite boring I suggest these changes:
* Buff Protoss anti air: Give them anti air units better than the horrible voidrays, make VRs anti air only or implement something similar to vikings/corruptors but in the protoss arsenal, or buff voidrays damage vs Air, or buff their range and make the attack more of an missile attack so P are able to kite and out position BL infestor corruptor, or buff the speed of the unit, or buff the survivability, or give them ultra frenzy so they cannot be fungaled, or give them an ability to load up units which can attack from the inside, or give them a full remake.
*Come up with new ideas as how to balance units:
Right now I feel like if a unit is very strong, the downside is that its slow and big (BL Immortal Colossus Carrier Battlecruiser thor among others), if the unit is mobile, its weak but high dps ( see rines lings blink stalkers mutas), and then there are casters, there are very few innovative and "fun" units with odd drawbacks, like the baneling, it can be very effective, but once you use it, its gone. or take the Lurker in bw; its quick, the dps is high but it can only attack while burrowed, take the hellion, its a good micro unit but horrible if you simply a-move, and thats what I feel like is the problem, there are too many "a-move" units in sc2, (slow but powerful).
*Remove WG mechanic or at least change it to only work defensively, or give the units a longer "creation time" than Gateways by making the cooldown longer on it (what Im trying to suggest is make WG so P gets lesser units / minute by using WG over GW but they can be used better proxywise and for harass etc) or make WG only work with Warp Prisms or in some other way make my upcoming suggestion viable;
*Buff GateWay units, Make the core army consist of Fighting units rather than Casters and other support units (Aoe damage like colossus which needs to fight in chokes in order to win battles or straight up dps like the immortal which cant survive without a buffer making it untouchable). When that is done its time to nerf (and perhaps fully remake) Forcefields. perhaps forcefields wont be needed at all when armies can fight straight up and it comes down to micro rather than the choked battles of todays sc2 where I feel like the protoss army is based on forcefields and forcefields only. (This will hopefully remove the feeling that with forcefields: protoss wins, as soon as forcefields are gone, Zerg will rune over and faceroll the protoss.) Make ground armies (and especially mech) more viable and increase micro skillcap by making immortals shield a use ability, hell make it an aoe like QXC suggested when he was brainstorming about it, but make it only last for x seconds. or remove the shield, make it cost mana, change it in some way to give the game more diversity. or perhaps nerf the damage on colossus, make them more of an anti siege tank contain unit and force more micro unit than-an-anti-everything-that-is-bio-unit, this would make colo and immortals more like supporting units the way tanks and thors works for Terrans.
All these changes would also make it much harder for Zerg to reach the BL infestor comp, making it more of a "dreamcomposition" than something every zerg can basically count on reaching unless opponent goes all-in, and even when Zerg do reach the composition, it wont be as superior because of more midgame spendings, there will be counters to it, and protoss will have an answer to it(***)
Also this would make Zerg midgame and ground army in general more cost efficient and more reliable.
*Then, and only then, nerf infestors, because until then, Zergs have no costefficient units other than the extremely expensive BL Infestorm, with the viper blind, fungal could be reduced to a slow that cannot be blinked out of (or if blind simply made it impossible to blink)
the zerg midgame army (espec with hydra speed in hoTS) will be more cost efficient, and it would force more midgame engagements...
The last thing that would have to be considered is how these changed affect XvT, Imo, Nerf medivacs healing abilities, perhaps give EMP to ravens, make medivacs heal slower or cost more energy, remove concussive shells or nerf the slow, perhaps even give zealots a slow with charge to make it impossible to kite (or give forcefields a slow instead of being a wall so its impossible to kite P to death and instead force the terran to spread out and commit more to engagements) or in another way nerf the biodeathball that would excel so hard if aoe and crowdcontrol spells were nerfed only.
***this, of course, would not be something that would make it possible for P to spend more than the zerg during other stages of the game but still end up with a better or equal army composition lategame, but would give them a fighting chance in the lategame stage while still having the tools to put on pressure during other stages.
I want to mention that my main race is Z, and I have in no way a fully understanding of the game, Im just brainstorming ideas and I would like it if someone at least did consider my suggestions at all before rejecting them, if my suggestions are very wrong, please tell me why and be somewhat constructive, Thank you.
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I love the fact that whole battle.net whines against zerg so zerg gets nerfed, instead of QQ you should take your time and learn to play lategame, make carriers and feedback infestors ==> no infestors and no brood lords.
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On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 08:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
These changes are much needed to nerf the impossible to kill zerg late game army. GGlords and winfestors got their nicknames for a reason. Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim.
Imba stim...? really? I don't fucking believe this, lol.
Edit: How would you nerf stim pack, and why? And why is it imbalanced?
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On November 25 2012 06:22 breadfanSC2 wrote:
I don't play P or Z, so I'm not speaking from any real foundation of knowledge, but I'm concerned about warp prisms being fungal immune most of all. I like the idea of fungal being an ensnare rather than a trap - so instead of being unable to move, units would be slowed by say, 50% - this could be across the board or for psionic only (leaving the current effect for non-psionic). Like others have suggested, I think fungal needs to at least remove stealth from psionic units for the duration of fungal.
I really like the raven change, and I think the same treatment should be tried with battlecruiser/yamato cannon (which might promote some lategame bc use)
I think the PvZ end-game problem might be helped some in HotS, and I don't think that's something that can be fixed with balance tweaks.
Yea experiment with BCs.. They are really underused. Such a cool unit!! =(
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Warp prisms and sentries being incincible vs fungal makes this too much. They are already doing sentry immortal all ins but now that fungal doesn't work im 100% sure they are just going to hit a little later and harder and just steam roll the Zerg. It doesn't fix late game ZvP and late game ZvT what it does do is make mid game a lot harder.
They need to buff something else to make it right, like buffing the hydra or maybe making muta better (without breaking ZvZ).
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lategame zerg is very fragile instead of killing the army if you kill the hive or mining bases there is nothing for zerg to do but try and kill you with their army. If you can survive then you win.
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lol, this thread makes the call to action thread seem high level.
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Does anyone here remember how the metagame was before Infestors got buffed?
Protoss always made a deathball and then proceeded to win by 1a-ing and some Forcefields. Can't wait for that to return, now that Fungal doesn't affect half of the Protoss units.
Infestor is the only good unit Zerg has. All others are complete trash without Infestors. You could probably throw 600 supply Roach-Hydra-Corruptor against a 200 supply deathball and Protoss would win.
Infestor is the only good unit, therefore it has to be good against everything. If it isn't good against a unit, that unit wins against Zerg.
And no one was complaining that DTs, Prisms, Sentries and Ghosts can be fungaled. It is not a problem. If it ain't broke.
They should have made Fungal like Purge from WC3 (except AoE of course). Units aren't rooted in place, but instead slowly regain their movement speed during the duration of Fungal.
Alternatively, they could have made units immune against Fungal for 1-2 seconds after Fungal expires (and increased damage of Fungal to compensate).
Both would have been a quite drastic nerf, but not nearly as ridiculous as making every second Protoss unit arbitrarily immune to Fungal.
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Take psionic status off sentry + these changes should be fine till HOTS.
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the changes are terrible because they fix the wrong problems.
infestors never got countered by ht and ghosts in the first place and making fungal not hit psionic is a completely silly change. It's just a random nerf against toss, doesnt do anything in ZvT and doesn;t promote any type of new play whatsoever. If fungal actually prevented ghosts/ht being used a little it would have been but that wasn't the case. It's a retarded change..
At the same time making seeker missile cost nothing is silly too. It just reinforces the unit as a 1-of and doesn't change it's gameplay much else. TvP it will remain useless, TvT and TvZ it will still be a niche lategame unit with the exception of it possibly seeing some early game usage now. Just one for detection and mild utility through the seeker missile could see some more play, plus the transition to it's lategame niche usage get's a little smoother.
Still it remains a crappy unit which is a shame as it should be the caster unit for terran which should be more viable in all matchups as a gas dump, just like infestors and ht/archon are always decent..
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On November 25 2012 16:33 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote:On November 23 2012 08:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
These changes are much needed to nerf the impossible to kill zerg late game army. GGlords and winfestors got their nicknames for a reason. Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. Imba stim...? really? I don't fucking believe this, lol. Edit: How would you nerf stim pack, and why? And why is it imbalanced?
I think his point was more that people can complain about anything if they want to.
There is always at least a few units that people need to balance whine about to make the SC2 world go round.
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The changes don't change the match up hugely (outside of possibly zealot archon becoming more powerful), all it does is encourage terrans to use ghosts more and toss to use HT more, however even if they can't be fungaled they still havet ofight past 500 broodlings. Interestingly if you watch Gumiho's ZvT you see the power of using ghosts in the match up, he wrecked some zerg in GSTL by sniping infestors like a boss. This will make his style amazing!
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On November 25 2012 16:33 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote:On November 23 2012 08:57 Survivor61316 wrote:
These changes are much needed to nerf the impossible to kill zerg late game army. GGlords and winfestors got their nicknames for a reason. Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. Imba stim...? really? I don't fucking believe this, lol. Edit: How would you nerf stim pack, and why? And why is it imbalanced?
I don't think it is imba, but if there was something imba in the terran race this would obviously be stim. It is such a nice ability, giving you mobility, map control, great hit & run ability, base sniping, better reaction time, etc... As a protoss, we wish we had this kind of ability, it's always such a pain in the ass to see these stim mm sniping your base in a few second, then run away very fast, and then kite your army trying to run after it.
Of course it's not imba imo, because this is part of the terran strength, as protoss have the more powerful units and zergs have the production advantage.
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For me the biggest problem is about PvZ, as zergs have the production advantage AND the powerful units in late game. The powerful units used to be the big protoss advantage, especially in late game. Units production is ok, because having warp gates, but you cannot remax as fast as zergs can in the late game, and the zergs late game units are at the very least as powerful as protoss best composition. Having also a better remax ability, zergs have in the end the edge in late game and protoss don't have that many windows to hit before this.
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The problem with this map is that no zergs play it. Played about 10 games and none of them featured a Zerg. Lol.
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Warp prism is not a problem. Sentry is tho, it would be too strong midgame.
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EPT
