EPTWhat are your thoughts on the balance test map?
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
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Nyvis
France284 Posts
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Verator
United States283 Posts
On November 23 2012 08:57 Survivor61316 wrote: These changes are much needed to nerf the impossible to kill zerg late game army. GGlords and winfestors got their nicknames for a reason. Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:04 Nyvis wrote: The problem is Zerg lategame, but the nerf targets zerg midgame way too hard. Zergs are based a lot on infestors to hold midgame pushs in PvZ (sentry based ...), and this patch will make it really difficult. I think trying it with only HT and Ghosts being unaffected might be a solution (they'll be able to counter the infestors freely if they're undefended, and it won't affect zergs defence in midgame. Well the sentry immortal push is actually designed to get there before infestors pop out, so in really doesnt change it all that much. Perhaps if the protoss pushes later after they pop this could be a problem, but I feel like adjusted scouting techniques to see if/when this push is coming would give the zerg ample time to build more defensive units and structures to counter it. | ||
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rQdjay
United States22 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:04 Nyvis wrote: The problem is Zerg lategame, but the nerf targets zerg midgame way too hard. Zergs are based a lot on infestors to hold midgame pushs in PvZ (sentry based ...), and this patch will make it really difficult. I think trying it with only HT and Ghosts being unaffected might be a solution (they'll be able to counter the infestors freely if they're undefended, and it won't affect zergs defence in midgame. Completely agree with this. There are way too many psionic units to be unaffected by fungal, such as warp prism and archon. IMO I don't believe the reason that ghosts and high templar are currently not a very viable response to infestors is because of the stun. Making ghosts and ht immune to stun would seem like a possible solution to experiment with. I don't think we should be focusing on nerfing the infestor, but instead having better responses to the infestor. | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote: Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. Yeah, sorry man, Ive never heard a caster or anyone else use those terms until right now.. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
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Diceman45
United States27 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote: Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. Corruptor's > Colossi. and I've actually been having some success with Ling/Hydra against the push. | ||
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merinerkongprine
Canada20 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:21 Survivor61316 wrote: Yeah, sorry man, Ive never heard a caster or anyone else use those terms until right now.. Ive also never heard casters use gglords or winfestors either | ||
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Survivor61316
United States470 Posts
On November 23 2012 11:13 merinerkongprine wrote: Ive also never heard casters use gglords or winfestors either Listen to husky, day9, or hd sometime then bro | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
On November 23 2012 12:39 Survivor61316 wrote: Listen to husky, day9, or hd sometime then bro  | ||
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clever_us
United States329 Posts
my response would be closer to  | ||
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ProCheeto
United States15 Posts
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HououinKyouma
Australia152 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
Also the fact that you can't stop the archons at all from going into the vortex, too. Honestly, I almost feel this is more of a buff to those two units than to HTs and ghosts. Projectile is a great idea though. On November 23 2012 08:57 Survivor61316 wrote: These changes are much needed to nerf the impossible to kill zerg late game army. GGlords and winfestors got their nicknames for a reason. | ||
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Korhag
1 Post
But nowadays the questions about balance and infestors decreased the joy of watching games. I think this new change is an interesting way to approach this problem. But I do not know about being completely immune to fungal thing. Maybe it should at least reveal cloaked psionic units or both immobilize and reveal them but no damage. Because while fighting with a Mothership it would be interesting and I think also would be very hard when sentries or archons still cloaked while other fungaled units revealed. Like I said I am not enjoying playing the game I just enjoy watching them so I could be missing some important points. But when I think about the Psionic Storm or HSM, it is possible to dodge them to some point and need some skill to use. But fungal is not like that I think that is the main reason why it kills the joy of watching (and maybe also playing). Because when I see a good landed storm I really appreciate the storm user or when someone dodged a storm I also appreciate the dodger. But it is not the case with the fungal. According to me it should be harder to use not just an automatic way to both immobilize and damage the opponent. Maybe adding a projectile or a kind of warning around the point where fungal is going the land (I have really no idea what the duration or the speed of projectile would be). But It is good that there will be still balancing updates before HotS is out. I was actually afraid that nothing will change in WoL because of the HotS. | ||
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Skytt
Scotland333 Posts
The raven change is fine. | ||
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gamingaddictmike
Canada30 Posts
If it means anything I play masters P, Diamond Random. Trying to be unbiased but Protoss is definitely my main race. As for this patch, I imagine they will limit it, as sentry, archon, dt, and warp prism all apply. Does this mean dt's will no lnger be uncloaked by a fungal? Seems a bit silly. Warp prism is a really strong way to stop zerg from getting out of hand, and if zergs have a harder time dealing with it that might be too stronger (although a patrolling corrupter or two would actually make a big difference even despite their cost.) I really really strongly feel the ghost changes would be unneccessary if the snipe nerf had not been so excessive so long ago. Most zerg players back then agreed that it needed to be nerfed, but that the nerf was too strong. If snipe did more damage it would make getting a couple ghosts more viable, without making it OP. I can't be sure if the fungal nerf to ghosts will make a huge difference but I guess it is nice to see some ideas on the table. The only way I would be really upset is this ends up with no changes. PvZ at the moment is flawed. Whether it is unbalanced or not the matchup suffers from problems in game design. I'm not bringing anything new to the table when I say this, only echoing many, many pros. To the Protoss and Terran players in thread, try not to rage too much.. To the Zerg, try to think realistically about Brood Lord Infestor. Even if you don't think it is too strong, don't you at least find it makes for uninteresting games? The community spends too much time raging at each other and provoking each other (trying not to sound like an elitist dick, but really some people are so immature about this that I feel like I am in a LoL forum) Hopefully some people respond with constructive criticism too my thoughts. Cheers. | ||
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lahara
Germany140 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:54 Diceman45 wrote: Corruptor's > Colossi. and I've actually been having some success with Ling/Hydra against the push. now thats just dandy that you have success in woodleague against woodleaguers while the push theyre attempting to do has silly winrates in progames | ||
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lahara
Germany140 Posts
youd take a bath in your own puke in a toilet? | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
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NOOBALOPSE
Canada802 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:21 Survivor61316 wrote: Yeah, sorry man, Ive never heard a caster or anyone else use those terms until right now.. Lol, he's trying to say that really you can complain about anything in this game if you really wanted. Imbalings imbastim, you name it, but in reality you're just QQIng and not getting anything done. That's why i find it completely useless to debate balance. | ||
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DMZ
Canada51 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote: Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. ^^ | ||
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NMxSardines
77 Posts
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LowEloPlayer
United States205 Posts
On November 23 2012 11:13 merinerkongprine wrote: Ive also never heard casters use gglords or winfestors either I've heard tons of casters and people use the term. Also, even Artosis and Tasteless (the former of which has become a figure that never complains about balance ever) laughed in agreement when somebody told him the collective noun for a group of brood lords is a "GG" of brood lords | ||
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LowEloPlayer
United States205 Posts
On November 24 2012 09:47 NOOBALOPSE wrote: Lol, he's trying to say that really you can complain about anything in this game if you really wanted. Imbalings imbastim, you name it, but in reality you're just QQIng and not getting anything done. That's why i find it completely useless to debate balance. Yea, QQing doesn't get anything done, why bother complain about balance? Why bother complain about anything? Wouldn't humans just be better off if they couldn't voice their opinion on anything? | ||
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mahO
France274 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:38 LowEloPlayer wrote: I've heard tons of casters and people use the term. Also, even Artosis and Tasteless (the former of which has become a figure that never complains about balance ever) laughed in agreement when somebody told him the collective noun for a group of brood lords is a "GG" of brood lords And please remind me, what race do they play? Like 80% of casters? Ooh... | ||
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Atlan___
Germany38 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 23 2012 12:39 Survivor61316 wrote: Listen to husky, day9, or hd sometime then bro lol. Personally I like the change to fungal becoming a projectile but feel the psionic thing isn't that great, ghosts are out of the way and emp range isn't even that big, one emp = 2-4 infestors? How do ghosts get close enough to the infestors to cast emp btw? | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote: Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. what? xD you must have made those up yourself. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
On November 24 2012 22:00 darkness wrote: Is 1-1-1 raven seeker missile OP vs P? I haven't tried it that much, but it looks very powerful to me. The PDD to defend stalkers fire will always be more important than HSM. | ||
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Lukeeze[zR]
Switzerland6838 Posts
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
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Skoop
United States214 Posts
On November 25 2012 01:14 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: It's hard to believe but somehow blizzard managed to nerf fungal for ZvP and not for ZvT, unbelievable. DKim hates us :[ Well ghosts can't be fungal'd anymore, that's at least a minor change. It's the patch effect. People will think this makes the ghost better and start playing with it more in TvZ and realize how good it was to begin with. However, I can't see them keeping the changes that prevent fungals on warp prisms and dark templar. | ||
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breadfanSC2
7 Posts
I really like the raven change, and I think the same treatment should be tried with battlecruiser/yamato cannon (which might promote some lategame bc use) I think the PvZ end-game problem might be helped some in HotS, and I don't think that's something that can be fixed with balance tweaks. | ||
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fireforce7
United States334 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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mhael
United States102 Posts
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On November 25 2012 09:52 mhael wrote: That "All I do is Stim" video is SO funny. thanks! That is from way back in the Terran imba days, fond memories. RE balancing, The fungal changes to Psionic should be interesting, I am not sure I am behind it 100% but I know that the infestor needs some adjustment and had not heard this solution before. I hope some major organizations do some ZvX show matches on the test map for shits and giggles, to look at some of the changes. | ||
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DMZ
Canada51 Posts
On November 25 2012 09:52 mhael wrote: That "All I do is Stim" video is SO funny. thanks! No problem. Stuff like that needs to be shared x) | ||
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mhael
United States102 Posts
Now Im addicted to this stupid song - thanks a lot!!! RE balancing, I am really interested to see if this gets implemented, because I dont play much - I watch GSL like a fanboy; and right now I am bored with the games due to the imba. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:38 LowEloPlayer wrote: I've heard tons of casters and people use the term. Also, even Artosis and Tasteless (the former of which has become a figure that never complains about balance ever) laughed in agreement when somebody told him the collective noun for a group of brood lords is a "GG" of brood lords so what Ive been laughing at really racist jokes, but im certainly not a racist... The zerg lategame army is extremely expensive, Instead of straight up nerfing it, making the game quite boring I suggest these changes: * Buff Protoss anti air: Give them anti air units better than the horrible voidrays, make VRs anti air only or implement something similar to vikings/corruptors but in the protoss arsenal, or buff voidrays damage vs Air, or buff their range and make the attack more of an missile attack so P are able to kite and out position BL infestor corruptor, or buff the speed of the unit, or buff the survivability, or give them ultra frenzy so they cannot be fungaled, or give them an ability to load up units which can attack from the inside, or give them a full remake. *Come up with new ideas as how to balance units: Right now I feel like if a unit is very strong, the downside is that its slow and big (BL Immortal Colossus Carrier Battlecruiser thor among others), if the unit is mobile, its weak but high dps ( see rines lings blink stalkers mutas), and then there are casters, there are very few innovative and "fun" units with odd drawbacks, like the baneling, it can be very effective, but once you use it, its gone. or take the Lurker in bw; its quick, the dps is high but it can only attack while burrowed, take the hellion, its a good micro unit but horrible if you simply a-move, and thats what I feel like is the problem, there are too many "a-move" units in sc2, (slow but powerful). *Remove WG mechanic or at least change it to only work defensively, or give the units a longer "creation time" than Gateways by making the cooldown longer on it (what Im trying to suggest is make WG so P gets lesser units / minute by using WG over GW but they can be used better proxywise and for harass etc) or make WG only work with Warp Prisms or in some other way make my upcoming suggestion viable; *Buff GateWay units, Make the core army consist of Fighting units rather than Casters and other support units (Aoe damage like colossus which needs to fight in chokes in order to win battles or straight up dps like the immortal which cant survive without a buffer making it untouchable). When that is done its time to nerf (and perhaps fully remake) Forcefields. perhaps forcefields wont be needed at all when armies can fight straight up and it comes down to micro rather than the choked battles of todays sc2 where I feel like the protoss army is based on forcefields and forcefields only. (This will hopefully remove the feeling that with forcefields: protoss wins, as soon as forcefields are gone, Zerg will rune over and faceroll the protoss.) Make ground armies (and especially mech) more viable and increase micro skillcap by making immortals shield a use ability, hell make it an aoe like QXC suggested when he was brainstorming about it, but make it only last for x seconds. or remove the shield, make it cost mana, change it in some way to give the game more diversity. or perhaps nerf the damage on colossus, make them more of an anti siege tank contain unit and force more micro unit than-an-anti-everything-that-is-bio-unit, this would make colo and immortals more like supporting units the way tanks and thors works for Terrans. All these changes would also make it much harder for Zerg to reach the BL infestor comp, making it more of a "dreamcomposition" than something every zerg can basically count on reaching unless opponent goes all-in, and even when Zerg do reach the composition, it wont be as superior because of more midgame spendings, there will be counters to it, and protoss will have an answer to it(***) Also this would make Zerg midgame and ground army in general more cost efficient and more reliable. *Then, and only then, nerf infestors, because until then, Zergs have no costefficient units other than the extremely expensive BL Infestorm, with the viper blind, fungal could be reduced to a slow that cannot be blinked out of (or if blind simply made it impossible to blink) the zerg midgame army (espec with hydra speed in hoTS) will be more cost efficient, and it would force more midgame engagements... The last thing that would have to be considered is how these changed affect XvT, Imo, Nerf medivacs healing abilities, perhaps give EMP to ravens, make medivacs heal slower or cost more energy, remove concussive shells or nerf the slow, perhaps even give zealots a slow with charge to make it impossible to kite (or give forcefields a slow instead of being a wall so its impossible to kite P to death and instead force the terran to spread out and commit more to engagements) or in another way nerf the biodeathball that would excel so hard if aoe and crowdcontrol spells were nerfed only. ***this, of course, would not be something that would make it possible for P to spend more than the zerg during other stages of the game but still end up with a better or equal army composition lategame, but would give them a fighting chance in the lategame stage while still having the tools to put on pressure during other stages. I want to mention that my main race is Z, and I have in no way a fully understanding of the game, Im just brainstorming ideas and I would like it if someone at least did consider my suggestions at all before rejecting them, if my suggestions are very wrong, please tell me why and be somewhat constructive, Thank you. | ||
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SmuZ
Romania45 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote: Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. Imba stim...? really? I don't fucking believe this, lol. Edit: How would you nerf stim pack, and why? And why is it imbalanced? | ||
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bolicense
Singapore10 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:22 breadfanSC2 wrote: I don't play P or Z, so I'm not speaking from any real foundation of knowledge, but I'm concerned about warp prisms being fungal immune most of all. I like the idea of fungal being an ensnare rather than a trap - so instead of being unable to move, units would be slowed by say, 50% - this could be across the board or for psionic only (leaving the current effect for non-psionic). Like others have suggested, I think fungal needs to at least remove stealth from psionic units for the duration of fungal. I really like the raven change, and I think the same treatment should be tried with battlecruiser/yamato cannon (which might promote some lategame bc use) I think the PvZ end-game problem might be helped some in HotS, and I don't think that's something that can be fixed with balance tweaks. Yea experiment with BCs.. They are really underused. Such a cool unit!! =( | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
They need to buff something else to make it right, like buffing the hydra or maybe making muta better (without breaking ZvZ). | ||
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BerkmanZ
United States56 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Dyme
Germany523 Posts
Protoss always made a deathball and then proceeded to win by 1a-ing and some Forcefields. Can't wait for that to return, now that Fungal doesn't affect half of the Protoss units. Infestor is the only good unit Zerg has. All others are complete trash without Infestors. You could probably throw 600 supply Roach-Hydra-Corruptor against a 200 supply deathball and Protoss would win. Infestor is the only good unit, therefore it has to be good against everything. If it isn't good against a unit, that unit wins against Zerg. And no one was complaining that DTs, Prisms, Sentries and Ghosts can be fungaled. It is not a problem. If it ain't broke. They should have made Fungal like Purge from WC3 (except AoE of course). Units aren't rooted in place, but instead slowly regain their movement speed during the duration of Fungal. Alternatively, they could have made units immune against Fungal for 1-2 seconds after Fungal expires (and increased damage of Fungal to compensate). Both would have been a quite drastic nerf, but not nearly as ridiculous as making every second Protoss unit arbitrarily immune to Fungal. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
infestors never got countered by ht and ghosts in the first place and making fungal not hit psionic is a completely silly change. It's just a random nerf against toss, doesnt do anything in ZvT and doesn;t promote any type of new play whatsoever. If fungal actually prevented ghosts/ht being used a little it would have been but that wasn't the case. It's a retarded change.. At the same time making seeker missile cost nothing is silly too. It just reinforces the unit as a 1-of and doesn't change it's gameplay much else. TvP it will remain useless, TvT and TvZ it will still be a niche lategame unit with the exception of it possibly seeing some early game usage now. Just one for detection and mild utility through the seeker missile could see some more play, plus the transition to it's lategame niche usage get's a little smoother. Still it remains a crappy unit which is a shame as it should be the caster unit for terran which should be more viable in all matchups as a gas dump, just like infestors and ht/archon are always decent.. | ||
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ShAdZ_ZX
Australia635 Posts
On November 25 2012 16:33 vOdToasT wrote: Imba stim...? really? I don't fucking believe this, lol. Edit: How would you nerf stim pack, and why? And why is it imbalanced? I think his point was more that people can complain about anything if they want to. There is always at least a few units that people need to balance whine about to make the SC2 world go round. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On November 25 2012 16:33 vOdToasT wrote: Imba stim...? really? I don't fucking believe this, lol. Edit: How would you nerf stim pack, and why? And why is it imbalanced? I don't think it is imba, but if there was something imba in the terran race this would obviously be stim. It is such a nice ability, giving you mobility, map control, great hit & run ability, base sniping, better reaction time, etc... As a protoss, we wish we had this kind of ability, it's always such a pain in the ass to see these stim mm sniping your base in a few second, then run away very fast, and then kite your army trying to run after it. Of course it's not imba imo, because this is part of the terran strength, as protoss have the more powerful units and zergs have the production advantage. | ||
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
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Gutts011
4 Posts
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
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samurai80
Japan4225 Posts
On November 26 2012 18:03 Gutts011 wrote: The problem with this map is that no zergs play it. Played about 10 games and none of them featured a Zerg. Lol. Lol. Well it's not surprising. It's like : "Fellow zergs, would you mind participating in your nerf test ?" ^^ | ||
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mcdoobyland
United States18 Posts
I think the nerf to infestors is definitely something worth trying out, but by the looks of it, i think the projectile and 12.5 decrease etc is a better option. As a protoss player, I think that the mothership should definitely be kept in-game, because it is a great solution for protoss to stop the giant Broodlord Infestor ball that protoss are so used to seeing. I am only in diamond league, so I cannot give any proffessional advice :3. | ||
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towerranger
Austria134 Posts
not beeing able to fungal infestors, sentrys, archons, dts warpprisms is so weird | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:04 Nyvis wrote: The problem is Zerg lategame, but the nerf targets zerg midgame way too hard. Zergs are based a lot on infestors to hold midgame pushs in PvZ (sentry based ...), and this patch will make it really difficult. I think trying it with only HT and Ghosts being unaffected might be a solution (they'll be able to counter the infestors freely if they're undefended, and it won't affect zergs defence in midgame. 100% this. The nerf doesn't actually affect blord/infestor that much, and is really more of a buff to sentry pushes and warp prism harass, which I don't think is needed (or at the very least, isn't the real problem). | ||
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monsta
172 Posts
or why is brood infestor too strong? brood infestor is the slowest army combo in the metagame the toss/terrans just have to herass the zerg and snip hatches etc... -,- | ||
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ErAsc2
Sweden256 Posts
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ErAsc2
Sweden256 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:36 monsta wrote: why is infestor op? i dont get it -,- or why is brood infestor too strong? brood infestor is the slowest army combo in the metagame the toss/terrans just have to herass the zerg and snip hatches etc... -,- What is sniping hatches going to do when you literally can't beat the army? And spinecrawlers are a supply-free | ||
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ZeBigMarn
Australia30 Posts
- Fungals (and EMPs) on a forcefield removes the forcefield. This change I like because it costs alot of energy so must be used wisely and makes the infestor fairly useless until more energy is built up. Additionally it gives the Zerg the choice to either fungal the units or the forcefields. It also gives the Protoss a fighting chance as new forcefields can be put up again with good micro but so 'good' forcefields are essential as there would be less available. The damage and snare of the fungals would also be used on the forcefields so individual units can be microed as well. (EMP was an afterthought as main focus was ZvP but could still promote earlier ghost play in TvP) - Fungal and EMP can be cast on own units for a small 'buff' - Fungal options - slow own units but increase armour and attack damage to make them more durable in battle. Uses could include lings or roaches becoming stronger (but less mobile) meat shields and hydras dealing the main dps from the back or allow the infestors to escape while your throw away army can still fight and occupy the army instead of requiring a good fungal to stop the chasing units. - EMP removes fungals, lifts from pheonixs, PDD, Guardian Sheild, Nuke, Warping in Units/Buildings (maybe too powerful for auto cancel of nexus?), Storm, infested terran? These are just some ideas which I think could be implemented along with the current changes but welcome any constuctive feedback with thought out pros and cons of the changes. PS. Personally I don't find the game Imba at all, just stagnant and repetitive. I find it exciting to see the possibilities the pros can do with slight adjustments and experimentation. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On November 27 2012 03:49 CursOr wrote: I really feel like something needs to be done about infested Terran. The fact that they didn't address this at all in this "fix" surprises me. This spell brings "anti-air" to a pure Broodlord-Infestor army is a big part of the problem, methinks. Versus carriers, and used in point attacks around nexus or command center are just so strong :/ I think chain rooting should be somehow addressed... but besides that I agree that IT's need some balancing. | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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GoodSirTets
Canada200 Posts
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Sunshinewalker
Germany34 Posts
just a small list of suggestions: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnrfPO6qxm0UdGt1ZEhjRmVSTE1QdThyOXpCY3VCdWc#gid=0 | ||
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C1Steamer
Sweden3 Posts
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Ryps
Romania2740 Posts
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banzaiib
United States53 Posts
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Kens000n
United States5 Posts
I want to see how that plays out | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:23 Dyme wrote: Does anyone here remember how the metagame was before Infestors got buffed? Protoss always made a deathball and then proceeded to win by 1a-ing and some Forcefields. Can't wait for that to return, now that Fungal doesn't affect half of the Protoss units. Infestor is the only good unit Zerg has. All others are complete trash without Infestors. You could probably throw 600 supply Roach-Hydra-Corruptor against a 200 supply deathball and Protoss would win. Infestor is the only good unit, therefore it has to be good against everything. If it isn't good against a unit, that unit wins against Zerg. . Not even REMOTELY close to true. The time period you are remembering is when people didn't make a quick third hatch, didn't drone heavily, stayed in the mid-game, and people like IdrA called broodlords and infestors trash with no reason to ever go to Hive even though infestors rooted for twice as long. They thought BROODLORDS, which haven't been changed, are bad. Half the games were Losira's roach/ling all-in (the first build that understood the usefulness of lings mixed in with your roach army) where the toss instantly died or the zerg was so far behind they died to a follow up gateway or colossus timing. The only use for infested terrans was to do some weird infested terran/ling timing attack off two base. They would also make hydras for no real reason, as well as having absolutely no idea whatsoever about what a flank is, no mixing lings with roaches, upgrading, drops, spine crawler walls, etc. Sitting around maxed out on a 5000/2000 cost 1/0 upgrade army while the protoss was at 120 supply, then the protoss eventually maxed with an army almost twice as expensive. I also vividly remember the amount of zergs that would just continue to headbutt their roach/hydra army into forcefields, completely out of range of stalkers and doing nothing, while 5 colossi tore into them. That wasn't imba, it was bad micro. It may have been 1a + forcefields from protoss but it was just 1a from zerg as well. Everyone in that time period for all races were bad compared to what they are now. I see games where properly positioned/flanking roach/corruptor still beats that deathball that you claim was can't be beat by...600 supply of roach hydra corruptor..which is a hyperbole that just makes your entire argument seem more ridiculous. The reason that era was a bit protoss favored (look at the winrates, it never was even that much of a discrepancy despite "being unbeatable" or whatever) was because a 5000/2000 army would smash against forcefields doing nothing, die, then the protoss army would be at the zerg's front door and kill off a stream of reinforcing roaches coming from five different hatcheries, making it look like you needed 300 supply of zerg to kill it off (which was reasonable since that closed up the army cost quite a bit). | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On November 27 2012 03:01 ZeBigMarn wrote: Here's my 2 cents, keep the proposed changes (and see how they play out) but also add one or both of the following: - Fungals (and EMPs) on a forcefield removes the forcefield. This change I like because it costs alot of energy so must be used wisely and makes the infestor fairly useless until more energy is built up. Additionally it gives the Zerg the choice to either fungal the units or the forcefields. It also gives the Protoss a fighting chance as new forcefields can be put up again with good micro but so 'good' forcefields are essential as there would be less available. The damage and snare of the fungals would also be used on the forcefields so individual units can be microed as well. (EMP was an afterthought as main focus was ZvP but could still promote earlier ghost play in TvP) - Fungal and EMP can be cast on own units for a small 'buff' - Fungal options - slow own units but increase armour and attack damage to make them more durable in battle. Uses could include lings or roaches becoming stronger (but less mobile) meat shields and hydras dealing the main dps from the back or allow the infestors to escape while your throw away army can still fight and occupy the army instead of requiring a good fungal to stop the chasing units. - EMP removes fungals, lifts from pheonixs, PDD, Guardian Sheild, Nuke, Warping in Units/Buildings (maybe too powerful for auto cancel of nexus?), Storm, infested terran? These are just some ideas which I think could be implemented along with the current changes but welcome any constuctive feedback with thought out pros and cons of the changes. PS. Personally I don't find the game Imba at all, just stagnant and repetitive. I find it exciting to see the possibilities the pros can do with slight adjustments and experimentation. I definitely like the first idea. Fungal destroying Forcefields seems weird (not as weird as rooting air units but still allowing them to fly) but I think it would be a good change. As for the second ideas, I think they are alright, though I wouldn't want EMP to prevent warpins, and it should still drain the energy of any allied units that have energy (I know you didn't say it shouldn't but I just thought I would mention it). Oh and I don't really find the game imba as a whole, but I think certain strategies are perhaps too strong (such that they get overused and become repetitive) and that the other two races need more options to deal with Zerg lategame. | ||
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
Seriously, if you think your idea is the shit, post it on bnet. On TL it's just filler - Blizzard won't read it, and it takes the place of discussion of actual changes. | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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Desertfaux
Netherlands276 Posts
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Hamofox
Brazil7 Posts
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StatikKhaos
United States214 Posts
this is just a buff to archon toilet honestly (also i'm not sure if this thread is full of trolls or not...) | ||
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Cattlecruiser
United States340 Posts
Lets assume that Blizzard wants to fix the composition: Broodlord, infestor, corruptor, queens. Since I can only speak for TvZ, I would propose: -ravens do not get affected by fungle It would allow Terrans a way to: -pick off retreating infestors efficiently -punish clumped corruptors effectively These two inability of the Toss and Terrans is most frustrating to watch. | ||
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
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Qwizzyx
Sweden44 Posts
Though I feel fungal is fundamentally broken, this is what we got. and if my slow ass HT's get immobalized they can at least fight back for a little longer time, the same for ghosts. And snipe have already been nerfed to trash against everything but spellcasters, so i don't think they will start sniping BLs again. And if they want this to matter more in the lategame, make the snipe/feedback range an upgrade. Regarding the mothership I think fungal should never have worked on massive units in the first place. It just looks really dumb when a BC is suddly not movable because of green goo.. | ||
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Qwizzyx
Sweden44 Posts
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Snorkels
United States1015 Posts
On November 23 2012 09:16 Verator wrote: Just like Freewin colossus and unbeatable forcefields and imbastim. You forgot Rand-cannons, rand-rax, and rand-pooling. Spread the word, Fourth Race OP. | ||
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UnholyRai
720 Posts
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Devilldog
United States69 Posts
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Sweetfrost
Sweden211 Posts
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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c0olL
129 Posts
On November 23 2012 11:13 merinerkongprine wrote: Ive also never heard casters use gglords or winfestors either i first saw it in IPTL when stephano was an observer and he said GGLORDS  | ||
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Hamboigahz
Australia55 Posts
A protoss will usually have 4-5 HTs against an army of 10-15 infestors and then complain about balance. The same goes with Terran players. When was the last time you saw a Terran go 10-15 ravens against a Zerg or Protoss? My bet is rarely to never, and yet nerfing the only good unit a race has to compensate for the other two races refusing to assimilate to patches is the only thing that can be done? pffffftt. But if you think that they are really is a problem there are 2 things which don't ruin the unit completely but make them harder to utilize: 1. Fungal must be researched at 100/200 2. Fungal has a cooldown | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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kynka
Sweden34 Posts
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Hamboigahz
Australia55 Posts
On December 04 2012 04:08 NKexquisite wrote: Have you ever tried producing 15-20 ravens? That's almost impossible unless its like an hour long game.... It's not impossible, it's just never tried. Viking-raven is the perfect Terran counter for Broodlord-infestor play, but Terran players instantly scream about nerfing the infestor because their massed, tier 1, 50 min marines can't instantly win against it. Vikings tank for the Ravens. The ravens drop 3-4 PDD to stop corrupter/infested Terran fire. Infested Terran are killed by seeker missiles and auto turrets. Vikings then kill the BLs. | ||
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Nakwa
Sweden93 Posts
On December 04 2012 16:16 Hamboigahz wrote: It's not impossible, it's just never tried. Viking-raven is the perfect Terran counter for Broodlord-infestor play, but Terran players instantly scream about nerfing the infestor because their massed, tier 1, 50 min marines can't instantly win against it. Vikings tank for the Ravens. The ravens drop 3-4 PDD to stop corrupter/infested Terran fire. Infested Terran are killed by seeker missiles and auto turrets. Vikings then kill the BLs. Not only is it an extremely expensive gamble, if it actually works zerg will only need to tech-switch to ultras and a-attack down everything | ||
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Hamboigahz
Australia55 Posts
On December 04 2012 21:00 Nakwa wrote: Not only is it an extremely expensive gamble, if it actually works zerg will only need to tech-switch to ultras and a-attack down everything Shame Ravens don't counter ultras right | ||
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SohcranA
United States36 Posts
On November 23 2012 12:39 Survivor61316 wrote: Listen to husky, day9, or hd sometime then bro Because casters like Husky and HD are authorities on game balance, amirite?! | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
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sebvolc
Denmark20 Posts
Edit. Also it makes BL ALOT slower to use in pushes, since you just cant move your fast Curroptors and then morph when you arrive. This will probably cripple zergs. Let it bee like that for at couple of months and then see when is viable. After a couple of months, when they have tried everything else and still cant win, start buffing them / nerfing the other races again. | ||
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vansvemirac
Croatia2 Posts
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gosublade
632 Posts
make fungal a immense slow and/or remove +25 starting energy... that would be something more normal to start with.. | ||
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Terranist
United States2496 Posts
On December 05 2012 14:32 azoriusherald wrote: Because casters like Husky and HD are authorities on game balance, amirite?! and day9 is? at least there is evidence the other two actually play the game. | ||
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