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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On July 02 2011 04:18 Mortality wrote: Because you can't call someone "the hottest player in progaming" if they can't do well in individual leagues. That just does not make sense. That's exactly my point. | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Tempest[OEC]
United States417 Posts
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Muirhead
United States557 Posts
On July 02 2011 05:12 ]343[ wrote: And of course all the Bisu fans don't remember when Flash dropped off PR despite a similarly dominating (perhaps a little worse) Proleague record and winning GOM Classic #3...? Because he had "failed" (not passed Ro8) of leagues for a year? Bisu is better :D, always. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
 I love the top 3 decisions, even if they may not be very strictly justified. | ||
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maximuspita
1093 Posts
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On July 02 2011 05:12 ]343[ wrote: And of course all the Bisu fans don't remember when Flash dropped off PR despite a similarly dominating (perhaps a little worse) Proleague record and winning GOM Classic #3...? Because he had "failed" (not passed Ro8) of leagues for a year? worst is that the only game he lost that whole league was a 2 fact from Berserker, lol, but to JWD's defense, there were so many impressive people that month (he gave GOM next to no credit despite flash playing and dominating an MSL semifnalist that was berserker), but whatever that isnt to be discussed. @ Darkoptik, calm down man youre really damn aggressive and tunnelvisioned, ever figured if everybody else is against your they are total idiots or you need to revise your opinion? If you dont learn that youre not gonna last too long at TL anyways.. And I was making an arguement that flash didnt belong in top 1 undtil I realized that Bisu dropped out of the OSL to hyvaa (who advanced throughout his zvp to the ro16, admittedly), jaedong had had his longest losing streak of his whole career and hydra doesnt feel 1st worthy as he was absolutely demolished by flash in the MSL in the same manner as zero, I for one refuse to believe that they were out of shape for the semi finals and the finals for that matter, knowing how Hydra the previous MSL and Zero allways bringing his best game vs flash, which brings me to the conclusion as many others had; flash were simply invincible at that given time. For flash's proleague losing streak I think it's half post finals inconsistency which happens to everybody and half that he hasn't been practicing as much as he would have, which made his games sloppy and made him loose. Not to take credit away from his opponents, but it's hard to judge a player's true skill when he isn't properly prepared, and given koreans practice culture this properly just proves how much their practice routine is worth. I have my one theory of sending out a practiceless flash simply because it's him, but all he could show was a dull blade. | ||
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vaMpYr
France119 Posts
On July 02 2011 04:15 VGhost wrote: Look at the scene for a moment. Korean professional BroodWar has three major competitions, the OSL, MSL, and SPL. Suppose three players win each title (for the sake of argument, let's say Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu respectively). Which is the most important? OSL and MSL are approximately equal accomplishments, although both leagues have their supporters and detractors. But usually - excepting really unusual performances like fantasy beating JD three times in a row in '09 - winning either (or even making finals) is "bigger" than an SPL title, because SPL needs a team to win. But even that has some disagreement, and if (for example during WL finals) one player does amazing in playoffs while failing in leagues, but both leagues are floating around in the Ro16/Ro8 area, while another player missed playoffs but dominates his opponents there, who's better? In other words, PR is supposed to be a representative of who the "best" players are at any given point, but unlike ELO, KeSPA rank, or other possible ranks with mathematical justification, it's intentionally not completely objective. It's usually pretty close and at least fairly reasonable (the worst I can think of was Flash getting left off a while back by JWD for no really clear good reason), but two people's ideas are never going to be exactly the same. As far as past history, every commenter (and most PR writers) disagree about what exactly should be weighted how much. Usually the month's performance gets the most weight, while former (especially recent and/or multiple) starleague winners and finalists get cut the most slack. Flash #1 is entirely defensible, on the strength of a Starleague win over an S-class player (hey, I like ZerO). In fact, the only other possible options are Bisu and Jaedong (better PR performance/beating Flash reliably), and neither of them have the Starleague accomplishments, at least this month. As for YellOw - see the notes on "subjective" above. ok , that's what i was thinking , we really dont have the same idea in PR . kespa ranking is about results ELO ranking is same as kespa but in a different way for counting PR should be about " who is the best player right now " so it should be on pure analysing of games and match . results must be counted too of course but not only . this month , the best player , the one who reach the highest level of SC during june is clearly bisu . when you watch his games , its an easy choice . SPL is same ( maybe even more ) importance than OSL and MSL . and even ignoring that fact , bisu is clearly dominating the bw scene right now . i dont care of your MSL or OSL titles . there is many sport legends who was known clearly as the best in their time , without winning any major trophees or leagues . for another example , in tennis , jelena jankovic or dinara safina were both one time 1# WTA and known as the cleary best during this time , both of them did not win any chelems tournaments . how many football legends never won world cup or champion's league or even the gold ballon ? bisu can easily be reconized as the best player right now , even when flash win MSL and my mom win OSL . lets remind us he broke a INSANE SPL record , and he is playing an EXTRATERREST SC lvl right now . just watch carefully his game vs hiya , NOBODY is playing this lvl right now . flash played bad this month except MSL finals he played really really well , so he deserve a good rank of course , but not 1# . never . he lost too many terrible games . if he has injury , its sport , its competition . there is no place for indulgence here . when a football or a tennis star is injured , federations have not indulgence for the gold ballon in football or for ATP in tennis . the guy will down in the ranking , no care of injury or sickness or even a knife in the back ( monica seles ) . MSL and OSL does count for PR for sure , but its not all . bisu deserve EASILY 1# this month , even with his prelim OSL fail . you have to count everything to see who has the highest level of SC during the month . bisu is dominating completly the SPL , its the same as any OSL/MSL title and maybe even more . but if he keep losing in ind. leagues , he will down for sure . if he lose in MSL for example , he will fall down . but for the moment , nobody can be say better than him . when jaedong will crush the OSL <3 , he will be higher for sure ^^ . if you want to punish those who lose in ind. leagues and favorising , those who not , then you can even put jangbi over bisu , JD and flash . he fail nowhere , crushed everybody in SPL and in OSL . so he should be 1# right ? but that's not how it works . 1# ( THE best player ) is bisu 2# ( the second best ) can be jaedong , flash hydra or jangbi ( there is discussion here ) 3# same as 2# 4# same as 3# 5# same as 4# 6# movie , soo , zero , best 7# same as 6# 8# same as 7# 9 same as 8# 10# hoejja or any player in CNBC | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On July 02 2011 03:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: Hello GG.NoRe edit: I know this probably isn't ggnore but I like to pretend every completely shitty anti-flash post is him nowadays. That means my anti-Flash posts are only partially shitty! Flamewheel didn't really write much in a month where things aren't clear-cut(which he should do at some point this month), though the rankings themselves aren't too bad. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
Bisu is NOT dominating the BW scene when he gets knocked out in the prelims + hasn't been close to any Starleague accomplishments since a couple of years back. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/powerrank/index.php?prid=1 http://www.teamliquid.net/powerrank/index.php?prid=38 | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Zaxro
United States261 Posts
Also, I can't believe there are actually people arguing against Flash being #1, he won the MSL going 6-0 vs two of the top three zergs around, and he fucking tied Nada (the G.O.A.T.) in gold medals. That gets #1 for the month it happens no doubt. The picture Flamewheel used was basically all that was needed. I'm not a fan of Flash, but arguing he shouldn't be #1 this month is absurd Who else could be #1 beside Flash for this month?  Jaedong? He didn't get to MSL finals and slumped hard at the beggining of the month, and I'm still unsure of his non ZvT matchups. JD is the only person I could see being above Flash at all, but even JD is a stretch for this monthHydra? Flash demolished him 3-0, hard for me to put him above FlashZerO? See above Bisu?-Hasn't done shit in an individual league for a long time and couldn't even make ODT, no way he could be #1. Sorry, Bisu has done phenomenally well in proleague but I have huge huge doubts on his BoX ability.YellOw?-Can't be higher than #2 | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
Well written PR! | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
"but if he keep losing in ind. leagues , he will down for sure . if he lose in MSL for example , he will fall down ." He's been failing in individual leagues for years, but it suddenly only counts if he loses in the next one? What? Incidentally, "EXTRATERREST" isn't a word. No idea what that's supposed to mean. | ||
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
On July 02 2011 06:26 GolemMadness wrote: Incidentally, "EXTRATERREST" isn't a word. No idea what that's supposed to mean. Extraterrestrial, I assume, probably meaning a level of play that can not be attained by anyone from this planet. Not that I agree at all, though. | ||
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Muirhead
United States557 Posts
Were any of you around when he was winning everything -_-;; Bisu's got some weird psychological issues. He's hanging around for years, unlike the other bonjwas who fell off completely much more quickly. I think it's because his mechanics are godly, and starcraft finally reached the point that people with godly mechanics aren't being replaced by better trained kids with even godlier mechanics. Something close to physical limits are finally being reached by people like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash. Some day if he gets his head in the right place, a little training time and a little luck, I have no doubt he can do well again. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On July 02 2011 06:36 Muirhead wrote: All of these people with doubts on Bisu's BOX ability... Were any of you around when he was winning everything -_-;; Bisu's got some weird psychological issues. He's hanging around for years, unlike the other bonjwas who fell off completely much more quickly. I think it's because his mechanics are godly, and starcraft finally reached the point that people with godly mechanics aren't being replaced by better trained kids with even godlier mechanics. Something close to physical limits are finally being reached by people like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash. Some day if he gets his head in the right place, a little training time and a little luck, I have no doubt he can do well again. He must've lost his mojo or else I am sure he would make a ro4 (atleast). He just doesnt play good in individual leagues | ||
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vaMpYr
France119 Posts
On July 02 2011 06:26 GolemMadness wrote: If you're the best player on the planet, you don't fail to make it past the RO16 for two years or however long it's been. You say this yourself: "but if he keep losing in ind. leagues , he will down for sure . if he lose in MSL for example , he will fall down ." He's been failing in individual leagues for years, but it suddenly only counts if he loses in the next one? What? Incidentally, "EXTRATERREST" isn't a word. No idea what that's supposed to mean. it not "suddenly " counts if he lose the next one . he has done some exceptional PL games , and that's count . so for this month , he should be 1# . but he has to make another exceptional july PL month to stay 1# , otherwise he fall down . but for june , he is 1# . this is maybe the second time for 2 years that bisu should be 1# in PR because of his leagues fails . but this month is very special for him , thats all im saying . sorry for the "alien" word ^^ but i like it :p . but anyway , i realize once again we really dont have the same point of view for PR . thats why i dont post on TL , i know no one will agree with me ^^ . there is nobody who will think that jangbi deserve maybe to be higher than flash and JD ( as the biggest fan of JD on earth , dont forget it ) . jangbi reach a same or better level of SC than flash and jaedong for me this month . bisu reach higher . im a visionary , im a complete fool . you choose =) ( joke ) . | ||
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pimp_stick
United States17 Posts
I knew I was going to get warned for this post but I still went with it, but because we want content, I will now contribute some thoughts: I will concede that Flash did manage to win a star league this past month, but then he went on a slump and has been playing relatively mediocre since. Jaedong ,yes he is on a game winning streak, but since when does play at the beginning of the month not count towards the power rank for that month? So we are just ignoring some terrible play because he has been playing well since? Remember we are talking about a body of work here over the ENTIRE month, and if you look at the entire body of work Jangbi should most likely be first, he played more games, and won more of them than anyone else isn't that what we define as on a roll? He is the most dangerous player right now and thus should be given the respect he deserves. Nuff Said User was warned for this post | ||
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