On July 02 2011 11:12 BisuDagger wrote: How can Bisu honestly be #5. I've never been more disappointed with a power ranking. #1 and #2 are fine. But if we are basing rank on achievements(Flash), then clearly Bisu achieving #1 elo and #1 in PL wins all time in the same month clearly deserves to be in the top 3. It's honestly achievement unlocked season for Bisu. His protoss squad is about to break 100 protoss wins in a season too. If he wins this PL championship I fully expect him to be at the top.
Addressing SL: Clearly Bisu should be doing better in the individuals. But he did have his runs when he won 3 msl's. Something not many have accomplished. We all have to understand Bisu can't be based on the SL records any more. Its not something he wins. Sadly. But he has accomplished a lot this season. Taking all of his achievements this season combined. He's due to be at the top.
I still think Jeadong beating Flash twice, Fantasy, Calm, Bogus, Sea and going 8-3 is worthly of #1. When you beat the PR #1 twice in the same month while also beating a large assortment of S classes should be #1.
Only thing Flash did this month was beat ZerO and Hydra, in 3-0 Bo5s, which is still very good, just not sure if it's enough in my mind.
So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I didn't say I agreed with Flash's position. However, Flash is a special case since he was able to win the MSL despite an injury and yeah I agree that he failed in PL but he didn't get destroyed iirc.
But I still don't see Bisu over Flash. I think the number 1 could have been JD or even Jangbi because as someone said, it's about recent performances and Jangbi has been a monster being good in BOTH PL and SL.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I think the point is that Flash's troubles in proleague have only been very recent and for the previous god knows how many rounds, he's been nearly as good as Bisu and winning an absurd number of games (isn't he #2 in PL wins right now? if he isn't, he's definitely #3).
While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long. While Flash might drop out once to guys like Hyuk and Classic, Bisu has been dropping out to go.go, Shine, Hyvaa, Hero, etc since 2009 (?).
On July 02 2011 13:51 Womwomwom wrote: While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long.
It's been a tick:
Batoo OSL: Semifinals (Lost to Fantasy 0 - 3) Bacchus OSL: Ro16 (Lost to go.go, ZerO 1 - 2) EVER OSL: Ro36 (Lost to Shine 1 - 2) Korean Air OSL S1: Ro36 (Lost to go.go 1 - 2) Korean Air OSL S2: Ro16 (Lost to Leta, EffOrt 1 - 2) 2010 Bacchus OSL: Ro36 (Lost to Shine 0 - 2) ? OSL: Lost in Prelims
Lost Saga MSL: Ro32 (Lost to Savior, ZerO) Avalon MSL: Ro8 (Lost to Iris 2 - 3) Nate MSL: Ro32 (Lost to Guemchi, Bogus) Hana Daetoo MSL: Ro32 (Lost to Shuttle, Movie) Bigfile MSL: Ro16 (Lost to Sea 0 - 2) PDPop MSL: Ro16 (Lost to Stork 0 - 2) ABCMart MSL: Ro32 (Lost to Flash twice)
To be fair, he did win the second season of the GOM Classic and the WCG Korea in 2009. But in the last two-and-a-half years - basically since his semifinals loss to Fantasy - he hasn't really made any noise in the individual leagues.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I think the point is that Flash's troubles in proleague have only been very recent and for the previous god knows how many rounds, he's been nearly as good as Bisu and winning an absurd number of games (isn't he #2 in PL wins right now? if he isn't, he's definitely #3).
While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long. While Flash might drop out once to guys like Hyuk and Classic, Bisu has been dropping out to go.go, Shine, Hyvaa, Hero, etc since 2009 (?).
Unless I am mistaken Bisu has not made it past the Ro16 of either MSL or OSL since August of 2009 when he lost to Iris in the Avalon MSL (the one Calm won). He also won WCG Korea in August 2090 Since then I think he has only made it past group stages twice (losing in the Ro16 to Sea and Stork in the Bigfile MSL and PDPop MSL respectively). So I don't think Bisu has done anything significant in an individual league for almost two years now(I consider Ro8 to be the very bottom of what can be considered significant, but Ro4 and Finals are of course far more significant).
On the other Hand all three of the people above Bisu (ignoring Yellow) made the top 4 in the last MSL (Flash winning the MSL), and Hydra won the prior MSL that Jaedong also got top4 in (and that is completely ignoring any history before that in which JD and Flash did phenomenally in individual leagues through all of 2010). So all three of them blow Bisu out of the water when it comes to individual leagues.
Now let's look at the team league performance (note I started at the beggining of September 2010 because I thought that was a good spot to include the entire PL season so far) Bisu64-16 80% Flash53-16 76.81% Jaedong51-23 68.92% Hydra41-23 64.06% So as we can see, Bisu has certainly been the best PL player, but Jaedong Flash and Hydra have all be doing damn good the entire proleague season, with both Jaedong and Flash breaking 50 wins, and Hydra breaking 40. So it is essentially Bisu-The best PL player, shit in individual leagues and has been doing poorly in individual leagues for a long time. Flash-Phenomenal PL, won an individual league to tie his record with Nada's. Has done slightly less well in PL this month, but has done well in PL the whole season Jaedong-Phenomenal PL, got dual Ro4 in two succesive individual leagues Hydra-Damn good PL performance, got Ro4 this MSL and won the last MSL
So people are saying that Bisu deserves to be higher than people who have been doing well in individual leagues while also doing great in proleague while he dominates proleague (also I would like to point out that good PL results are more impresive if a player is in an individual league because they have to prepare for PL and their individual league, while someone like Bisu only has to worry obout PL.
Now Bisu's PL performance is SOOOOOOO good that I am still willing to put him in top 5, even above people with far better individual league results, but he needs to show some individual league results to move up beyond where he is (and I question even putting him above Zero, but Zero seems inconstant enough to me to lower his ranking a bit).
I just truely believe skt winning pl + a Bisu when(possibly ace win too) makes him deserving of the #1 spot next month to encompass his pl achievements. But when he wins the msl I'll be back to preach more to the choir I do understand everyone's arguments and they are valid until I realize Bisu is just that awesome.
Btw, disappointed to not see Stork in CNBC. You need to check the schedule, flamewheel. It's SL season again and Stork always seem to get his groove back at this time. Every season, Stork plays badly in the PL, then SL season rolls around, he'll put away his anime/WOW/cellphone game/whatever and will actually start to practice. Then he'd proceed to advance further than every other toss but still ultimately fail somewhere.
In terms of consistent SL performance, I would Stork #3 behind Jaedong and Flash. The guy never seem to fail to move up around this time.
On July 02 2011 16:11 baubo wrote: Btw, disappointed to not see Stork in CNBC. You need to check the schedule, flamewheel. It's SL season again and Stork always seem to get his groove back at this time. Every season, Stork plays badly in the PL, then SL season rolls around, he'll put away his anime/WOW/cellphone game/whatever and will actually start to practice. Then he'd proceed to advance further than every other toss but still ultimately fail somewhere.
In terms of consistent SL performance, I would Stork #3 behind Jaedong and Flash. The guy never seem to fail to move up around this time.
Even assuming that's true... he still hasn't done anything this past month. that's why no CBNC.
I would normally bitch about Hydra being above Bisu due to how Bisu would thrash him, but I should tell that to hyvaa. I am just thankful you didn't put ZerO ahead of him, considering ZerO is like 13-7 in his past 20, with about half of those losses being to Flash, and wins over Jaedong and Fantasy.
I enjoyed the Yellow @ #2, and dislike people taking that too seriously. Bisu being at #4 is his own damn fault. I wish the guy had come close to winning a starleague in the last 2 and a half years.
On July 02 2011 16:11 baubo wrote: Btw, disappointed to not see Stork in CNBC. You need to check the schedule, flamewheel. It's SL season again and Stork always seem to get his groove back at this time. Every season, Stork plays badly in the PL, then SL season rolls around, he'll put away his anime/WOW/cellphone game/whatever and will actually start to practice. Then he'd proceed to advance further than every other toss but still ultimately fail somewhere.
In terms of consistent SL performance, I would Stork #3 behind Jaedong and Flash. The guy never seem to fail to move up around this time.
Even assuming that's true... he still hasn't done anything this past month. that's why no CBNC.
Yeah... that came out a little more serious than what I had in mind. It was really a play on "close but no cigar", as in Stork is "close but one month too early" for the rank.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I think the point is that Flash's troubles in proleague have only been very recent and for the previous god knows how many rounds, he's been nearly as good as Bisu and winning an absurd number of games (isn't he #2 in PL wins right now? if he isn't, he's definitely #3).
While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long. While Flash might drop out once to guys like Hyuk and Classic, Bisu has been dropping out to go.go, Shine, Hyvaa, Hero, etc since 2009 (?).
Unless I am mistaken Bisu has not made it past the Ro16 of either MSL or OSL since August of 2009 when he lost to Iris in the Avalon MSL (the one Calm won). He also won WCG Korea in August 2090 Since then I think he has only made it past group stages twice (losing in the Ro16 to Sea and Stork in the Bigfile MSL and PDPop MSL respectively). So I don't think Bisu has done anything significant in an individual league for almost two years now(I consider Ro8 to be the very bottom of what can be considered significant, but Ro4 and Finals are of course far more significant).
On the other Hand all three of the people above Bisu (ignoring Yellow) made the top 4 in the last MSL (Flash winning the MSL), and Hydra won the prior MSL that Jaedong also got top4 in (and that is completely ignoring any history before that in which JD and Flash did phenomenally in individual leagues through all of 2010). So all three of them blow Bisu out of the water when it comes to individual leagues.
Now let's look at the team league performance (note I started at the beggining of September 2010 because I thought that was a good spot to include the entire PL season so far) Bisu64-16 80% Flash53-16 76.81% Jaedong51-23 68.92% Hydra41-23 64.06% So as we can see, Bisu has certainly been the best PL player, but Jaedong Flash and Hydra have all be doing damn good the entire proleague season, with both Jaedong and Flash breaking 50 wins, and Hydra breaking 40. So it is essentially Bisu-The best PL player, shit in individual leagues and has been doing poorly in individual leagues for a long time. Flash-Phenomenal PL, won an individual league to tie his record with Nada's. Has done slightly less well in PL this month, but has done well in PL the whole season Jaedong-Phenomenal PL, got dual Ro4 in two succesive individual leagues Hydra-Damn good PL performance, got Ro4 this MSL and won the last MSL
So people are saying that Bisu deserves to be higher than people who have been doing well in individual leagues while also doing great in proleague while he dominates proleague (also I would like to point out that good PL results are more impresive if a player is in an individual league because they have to prepare for PL and their individual league, while someone like Bisu only has to worry obout PL.
Now Bisu's PL performance is SOOOOOOO good that I am still willing to put him in top 5, even above people with far better individual league results, but he needs to show some individual league results to move up beyond where he is (and I question even putting him above Zero, but Zero seems inconstant enough to me to lower his ranking a bit).
proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
and more important , SPL is a different competition , sometimes harder . you never know who you'll get to play , maybe a total newcomer . someone the team in front of you make the things perfectly harder for you , with the perfect player against you of the perfect map for him . competition is here more complicated .
bisu going 64 - 16 and 80% ratio is easily equivalent to 2 OSL/MSL titles .
How can a teamleague be more worth for the individual than an individual league?! No one argues about the overall importance of proleague here, yet the place to present yourself as a player against a stronger-growing competition is the individual league.
EPT
I do understand everyone's arguments and they are valid until I realize Bisu is just that awesome.
