EPTPower Rank 05/09/2011 - Page 15
| Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
|
Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
| ||
|
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On May 21 2011 01:46 Elefanto wrote: Didn't realize that, protoss have fallen =( Still not as bad as the time when free was #1 protoss in kespa rank lol Protoss have not fallen in BW at all. They are doing amazing in PL. And there are a lot of potential Protoss players around right now. Like Grape, Horang2, Movie, Snow, Brave and you can't discount the 6 dragons with Bork or Stisu (lol) leading the pack. I can't say the same thing for Terran, Terran have old stars (like Mind, Leta, Sea and Light with Flash and Baby) but no new Terran star that impressed me in the last year. And Zerg have only Soulkey rising up. Protoss have the most "up-and-coming" players. I personally think that next year, Protoss race will rise up and take a SL. | ||
|
Brycks7
Peru183 Posts
On May 19 2011 23:57 Arnstein wrote: Now this is the perfect power rank :D No, man, this is the worst rank. My Song Byung Goo!  On the other hand, Soulkey for #1 PR!! | ||
|
Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On May 18 2011 12:03 VGhost wrote: I'd normally be inclined to call fOrGG's title a fluke, but it was such an impressive run at the time I'm hesitant. You're damn right you better be hesitant. You do not fluke your way to consecutive Bo5 wins over Flash and Jaedong to take the championship. This is not a possibility. Retroactively calling a championship a fluke run doesn't make any sense. You base it on that tournament and who they faced, not if they made another finals run later. Their skill, or lack their off, after the tournament has nothing to do with their championship run. Time only flows in one direction. Btw, Mind did make another Ro4 the exact season after he won, so he didn't really go anywhere. | ||
|
Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 21 2011 10:33 Xiphos wrote: Protoss have not fallen in BW at all. They are doing amazing in PL. And there are a lot of potential Protoss players around right now. Like Grape, Horang2, Movie, Snow, Brave and you can't discount the 6 dragons with Bork or Stisu (lol) leading the pack. I can't say the same thing for Terran, Terran have old stars (like Mind, Leta, Sea and Light with Flash and Baby) but no new Terran star that impressed me in the last year. And Zerg have only Soulkey rising up. Protoss have the most "up-and-coming" players. I personally think that next year, Protoss race will rise up and take a SL. I don't think a resurgence of old names should really count against Terran. And we are now in our third consecutive MSL without a Protoss semifinalist. Any standard by which Baby is old also makes Movie old considering Movie started garnering attention in a big way back in early/mid 2009 and made OSL finals in January 2010. Horang2 has also been A-teamer for quite some time. Snow impresses me, I'll say it without hesitation. As for Grape and Brave... they show potential, but I'd hesitate to even put them on the same level as Bogus. | ||
|
PBC
167 Posts
On May 21 2011 11:50 Crisium wrote: You're damn right you better be hesitant. You do not fluke your way to consecutive Bo5 wins over Flash and Jaedong to take the championship. This is not a possibility. Retroactively calling a championship a fluke run doesn't make any sense. You base it on that tournament and who they faced, not if they made another finals run later. Their skill, or lack their off, after the tournament has nothing to do with their championship run. Time only flows in one direction. Btw, Mind did make another Ro4 the exact season after he won, so he didn't really go anywhere. to be fair Flash at the time wasnt the monster that he is now, and interhouse bo5's usually end up getting messy | ||
|
sixfour
England11061 Posts
On May 21 2011 10:33 Xiphos wrote: Protoss have not fallen in BW at all. this, it's just that a lot of the familiar names from 12 months ago aren't performing (i'm looking at you kal/jangbi/free to some extent/best until very recently) and new players are coming through and doing well (horang2/grape/snow/stats etc). it also doens't help that the flash/jaedong domination gives somewhat of an impression of t/z being better (and when they're not winning titles, the likes of fantasy/effort/hydra are getting the cheddar instead - when did we last have a protoss individual league winner?) | ||
|
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Bisu won clubday like 2 weeks later. This was November 2008 when protoss won both titles and everyone hated protoss because they were SO DOMINANT UGH and now it's zerg and we miss them. | ||
|
okum
France5778 Posts
| ||
|
aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On May 21 2011 21:34 okum wrote: We need more outrageously protoss favored maps in individual leagues. (They kind of suck in Proleague because they end up with mirror matches all the time, but that's not a problem in individual leagues.) JD and Flash will have a fair chance anyway, but if maps could help get rid of some of the Calms and Hydras to allow some protoss representation at least in the semifinals, I would be all in favor. Why reward bad players with biased maps that favour them? This is like tall poppy syndrome.. Map makers should endeavour to create balanced maps every time. Not change it just so we can have winners from different races. | ||
|
ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On May 21 2011 21:34 okum wrote: We need more outrageously protoss favored maps in individual leagues. (They kind of suck in Proleague because they end up with mirror matches all the time, but that's not a problem in individual leagues.) JD and Flash will have a fair chance anyway, but if maps could help get rid of some of the Calms and Hydras to allow some protoss representation at least in the semifinals, I would be all in favor. Protoss plains was so bad for the protoss as a race lol... just ended up sniping each other. | ||
|
L0thar
987 Posts
Since 2009 we have 5 distinct zerg starlegue winners, Luxury, Calm, Hydra, Effort, Jaedong. Compare that to the 2 terrans - Flash and Fantasy and 0 Protoss Not only that, we also had pretty shitty 3 ZvZ finals and one all zerg semifinal on top of that. To put things into perspective, last PvP final was in 2008 and last TvT finals...um, 2004 lol? | ||
|
Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
On May 22 2011 02:09 L0thar wrote: I blame the zergs. It was always like that - strong zerg means no protoss (with some odd Bisu here and there) and BW is recently turning into zergcraft with PvZ almost unwinable and ZvT well manageable at the highest level. Since 2009 we have 5 distinct zerg starlegue winners, Luxury, Calm, Hydra, Effort, Jaedong. Compare that to the 2 terrans - Flash and Fantasy and 0 Protoss Not only that, we also had pretty shitty 3 ZvZ finals and one all zerg semifinal on top of that. To put things into perspective, last PvP final was in 2008 and last TvT finals...um, 2004 lol? In this SPL TvZ is 54% and ZvP is 52% - ZvP being the least imba of all match ups. Its just a coincidence that there aren't 3 terrans in the round of four this MSL like in the one before the last one. | ||
|
ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On May 22 2011 02:20 Elroi wrote: In this SPL TvZ is 54% and ZvP is 52% - ZvP being the least imba of all match ups. Its just a coincidence that there aren't 3 terrans in the round of four this MSL like in the one before the last one. Minus Bisu who is an obvious outlier then ZvP becomes 57% XD | ||
|
~chut~
France1317 Posts
On May 20 2011 05:20 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I don't feel like criticizing a Starleague gold is in good conscience. It belittles the efforts of not only the player who achieved that but all the players who fought to climb the same mountain. Nobody has to stop doing this just because I say so; however proud I may be, I'm not so narcissistic as to think that. But, by the very same token, I have every right to criticize the value of this discussion. All it does is open up a floodgate of complaints and "what ifs." At the end of the day, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. We might not value the winner as the better player for any of a number of reasons -- and that is totally fine -- but the player who climbs the mountain deserves credit for doing so, not ire. Well i disagree a little bit with you there. It's perfectly ok to criticize a winner and say someone was better and would have made a more deserving winner, as long as you can back it up with a little knowledge and arguments. Just like in tennis, you can perfectly call a fluke win when someone who never did anything else wins something big and return to shadows. For instance, i'd call Gaudio French Open '04 a fluke, even though he did beat Coria who was imo the favorite that year in final. Because he only won when Coria inexplicably got unable to serve or run... The rest of his career is ok, but mostly unremarkable. Same goes for the amazing Johansson win in the AO '02 against Safin. You get a relatively easy draw, you manage to get a big win at the right time, because every other time you'll get crushed by the opponent you face and there you go, you're a slam winner. Well, it's the same in BW imo. You can perfectly have an easy draw and most importantly in BW, we have maps. Casy won an OSL almost empty of protoss since maps were terrible for them. I'd say his side of the mountain was wayy easier to climb than most of players. Yes, he beat Yellow and Chojja who were good at that times (Chojja was even #1 Kespa!) but it was Casy good mu on favorable maps... And he sneaked his way out of group stage barely because OSL had a stupid system this time around. I think he's a fluke, even though he was expected to do well as a newcomer, even though he got to the OSL semis 2 seasons after his win. I think this way because he didn't prove himself a reliable player for his team nor a reliable SL player. He could get big wins and terrible losses on the same day. He makes me thinks of Upmagic for that. And he was awful at tvp. He got lucky to get a relatively easy OSL for his style at the exact time when he managed to get his shit together and play consistently. Good on him, but it doesn't exactly make him an all-time great in my eyes. I don't value his OSL gold as much as i value most of other winners. Now about July 3rd OSL... I think he was lucky to face only protoss and he had a relatively easy OSL because he was just eating protoss at that time while struggling with other mu. But i certainly won't call July a fluke since he proved to be reliable in starleagues and for his teams for a long time before that. He was the first zerg to knock out Oov in a serie. The first zerg to win a zvt osl final. He proved himself long before he had to face Best. So yes, it was kind of a surprise to see July winning again, long past his prime, he was kind of lucky with his draw, but he was certainly not a fluke win. | ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Heck, I think Movie is doing better than Soulkey too, so it's like...kinda weird that Leta and Soulkey are that high on the PR. IMO Bisu and Flash>JD too, but...Bisu especially is on fire. His PvT is peaking and it looks stronger than even Stork's. I think his vT right now is second best next to Flash's, and his vZ is clearly the best in the scene. His PvP has yet to be tested, but his game against Horang2... | ||
|
Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
On May 22 2011 06:24 wherebugsgo wrote: This PR is really lacking because of no Horang2. He's not even in CBNC or the shoutouts. He's doing way better than Leta right now, and IMO the wrong ACE player is on the PR. It should've been FBH, not Iris, and FBH should be ranked at 8th, with Mind being lower, Leta being off the PR (replaced with Horang2) and Soulkey should be 9th (so move everyone up) Heck, I think Movie is doing better than Soulkey too, so it's like...kinda weird that Leta and Soulkey are that high on the PR. IMO Bisu and Flash>JD too, but...Bisu especially is on fire. His PvT is peaking and it looks stronger than even Stork's. I think his vT right now is second best next to Flash's, and his vZ is clearly the best in the scene. His PvP has yet to be tested, but his game against Horang2... Well you have to take into account when the PR was written. At the time there was no doubt JD should have been on top, even though others have looked better in the weeks following it. I would also think twice before calling Bisu's vT better than Jaedong's. | ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On May 22 2011 07:04 Cpadolf wrote: Well you have to take into account when the PR was written. At the time there was no doubt JD should have been on top, even though others have looked better in the weeks following it. I would also think twice before calling Bisu's vT better than Jaedong's. Bisu hasn't lost to randoms in vT recently. Admittedly, neither has Jaedong, but Bisu pretty much only loses to Flash, and even those games are close. The last times I remember him losing to anyone other than Flash were Leta and Hiya. Jaedong has looked pretty good but he has dropped some random games to people he shouldn't have lost to. His ZvP and ZvZ are looking really shaky, with that series against Snow and the random loss to Horang2, and his refusal to stop going that dumb muta build that keeps giving him losses (like against Grape). His ZvZ has been....very lackluster as of late. Although I would agree that at the time, Jaedong's vT looked beastly, since he defeated Flash and Sea so handily. If you look at both players' vT since January 1st, you'll see that they're really similar. Bisu has a 75% winrate PvT since January 1st, 15-5, with 3 losses to Flash, one to Hiya, and one to Leta, all excellent players. Jaedong has a 78% winrate ZvT since January 1st, 18-5, with 1 loss to Flash, Bogus, Reality, BByong, and Light. Compare this to Flash who is 22-3 (88%), and Stork who is 11-9 (55%). Now ofc the PR takes into account the players' stats for a month, right? So I think from that subset Jaedong definitely looks stronger in his ZvT, but his ZvZ and ZvP... Bisu PvP: 2-0 100%, one win against Free PvT: 2-2 50%, both losses to Flash, wins against Flash and Sea PvZ: 5-1 83%, win against JD, loss against ZerO Flash: TvP: 3-3 50% two wins against Bisu, one against Movie, losses to Bisu, Best, Much TvT: 2-1 66% series against Really TvZ: 3-2 60% both losses against JD Jaedong: ZvP: 0-1 0% loss to Bisu ZvT: 7-1 88%, wins against Flash, Sea, Fantasy ZvZ: 2-2 50% losses to Soulkey and great, win against s2 From that, clearly Jaedong's vT looks the best on paper, but neither Bisu nor Flash really had that many games. Out of a similar number of games vZ, Bisu definitely looked the hottest. None of the 3 have had to play many Ps in the past few months. Honestly I think the top 3 on the PR has to be FBJ right now, it's just arguable who is better than who because of the way their matchups work. IMO Jaedong is looking the weakest and Flash is probably the strongest. Bisu is that one wildcard that can just own anyone when he has preparation and will always just about destroy any Z sent at him, but his vP and his vT weakness to Flash keeps Flash a notch higher right now, at least. : | ||
|
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 22 2011 03:07 ~chut~ wrote: Now about July 3rd OSL... I think he was lucky to face only protoss and he had a relatively easy OSL because he was just eating protoss at that time while struggling with other mu. But i certainly won't call July a fluke since he proved to be reliable in starleagues and for his teams for a long time before that. He was the first zerg to knock out Oov in a serie. The first zerg to win a zvt osl final. He proved himself long before he had to face Best. So yes, it was kind of a surprise to see July winning again, long past his prime, he was kind of lucky with his draw, but he was certainly not a fluke win. A win can be a fluke even if the player is not. His 3rd osl win has nothing to do with his previous 2. | ||
Harem
United States11390 Posts
On May 21 2011 21:34 okum wrote: We need more outrageously protoss favored maps in individual leagues. (They kind of suck in Proleague because they end up with mirror matches all the time, but that's not a problem in individual leagues.) JD and Flash will have a fair chance anyway, but if maps could help get rid of some of the Calms and Hydras to allow some protoss representation at least in the semifinals, I would be all in favor. no, start blaming pvp if anything there aren't protoss in later stages of leagues because they keep killing themselves off and end up meeting flash/jd later anyways (ie just look at this MSL where you had a 3 protoss group where only 1 got out of it and then later on 2 of the 3 remaining protoss ended up having to face each other anyways) | ||
| ||
