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On May 18 2011 05:23 Cpadolf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 03:48 blade55555 wrote:On May 18 2011 02:35 1Eris1 wrote:On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote:I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such. Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..  Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding). Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!" Bisu seems to be doing pretty well vs JD Correct me if I'm wrong but in progleauge don't both bisu and stork always do good vs JD? Yeah. The two wins he got against them in march was his first ever win against Stork in PL (now 1-5) and his second ever win in PL against Bisu (now 2-8). Meanwhile, he is 2-0 in BoX vs Bisu (3-0 if you count WCG), and 3-0 in BoX vs Stork (5-1 if you count WCG, 6-1 if you count Seoul e-Sports Festival, whatever that was).
Ok thats what I thought, they always beat jaedong in proleague, but in a box series Jaedong seems to always win  . ^^
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Mortality:
His win was fine, it was a respectable tournament with respectable wins. He didn't really play the best players of the time but I'd compare it to Luxury's MSL: Not the best players, but a whole lot of REALLY good players along the way. I was just saying the other way you can consider a champion a fluke is if they never make a strong run in another title again, in which case Sync, ForGG and Mind are the most notorious. I said fluke player rather than fluke championship. The second biggest fluke championship run was clearly Casy's.
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I'm curious where you draw the line, though. If we count OSL/MSL as the major leagues, there's been 56 total (58 with the current MSL + the new MySL), of which we've got a small number of players taking a lot of the titles. Multiple titles:
 NaDa (6), iloveoov (5), Flash (5),  Jaedong (5), sAviOr (4), BoxeR (3), July (3),  Bisu (3), GARIMTO (2), Nal_rA (2)
is 10 players with 38 golds - even if none of F/B/J win a title this time around that's more than 2/3 of the total.
Are all the other 20 titles "fluke" titles? Obviously not. We can look at players with multiple finals appearances, strong resumes, good records vs other good players, etc, and say they definitely deserved at least "a" title. Reach, ChoJJa, Anytime, Kingdom, Stork, Fantasy.
Then there are three recent titles - Calm, Hydra, and (arguably) EffOrt - which we can't really judge yet. All three are A-class at least, but we've got the Calm/Clam problem, Hydra's ZvT issues, and EffOrt's retirement to consider. And two old titles - Freemura and Grrrr... - which don't really fit into the modern SC continuum and don't fit the discussion.
That leaves 7. GGPlay, Luxury, XellOs, Sync, Casy, Mind, fOrGG. Off the cuff, I'd rank them in decreasing order of "legitness": GGPlay is probably the best player in that group; or maybe Xellos. Luxury's run was brilliant, and up till the scandal he was always a threat at least to group stages. Mind hasn't ever gone as deep again but he's still playing pretty well over a long-ish period. I'd normally be inclined to call fOrGG's title a fluke, but it was such an impressive run at the time I'm hesitant. Given SynC's career record I'm going to put him here but I know nothing about him. Casy's was a lucky run even in his opponents: he did actually beat Rainbow in a tiebreaker but then the first name I recognize is YellOw in the semi and then ChoJJa in the final, both his best MU. But it's YellOw and ChoJJa even so, both with top ten ZvT ELO peaks. So overall... I'm inclined to say there's not really been a "fluke" title. Hmm.
Except... that brings us around to July's mouse. First group was weak: Mind's not bad, but FrOzen is. Ro16 was 2-1 in an all-Zerg group which I guess is impressive. But that Rock-BackHo-BeSt string in the playoff rounds is just weak. Probably weaker than Casy's run (although at least July didn't fall all the way through tiebreakers and squeak into the tournament in the last possible way). On the other hand, he did completely smash BeSt, who had beaten Lux 3-2... I guess I'd say with his standing July totally deserved the golden mouse but when he actually won it it was a little weak.
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This Was A Good Read And I <3 Jaedong
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On May 18 2011 10:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Mortality:
His win was fine, it was a respectable tournament with respectable wins. He didn't really play the best players of the time but I'd compare it to Luxury's MSL: Not the best players, but a whole lot of REALLY good players along the way. I was just saying the other way you can consider a champion a fluke is if they never make a strong run in another title again, in which case Sync, ForGG and Mind are the most notorious. I said fluke player rather than fluke championship. The second biggest fluke championship run was clearly Casy's.
Really? REALLY?
You're getting to be ridiculous with the way you're throwing around the word fluke and questioning every championship that doesn't feature a bo5 against KeSPA #1.
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On May 17 2011 17:22 Vasoline73 wrote:
TwoToneTerran with some serious revisionist history in this thread... the only real luck July had was that Luxury megachoked his 2-0 into a 2-3 loss against Best...
July played great that SL. Watch the games maybe. Sure he dropped off after but to say it was a fluke is retarded... the only fluke SL I can think of might be Calm's (*IMO obv*) and even then his victory over JD carries him..
Calm were really fucking good at that time. It was FULLY deserved.
Even if he zvz'd his way there for the most part in his MSL he was a MONSTER in the following season, both in proleague and the EVER OSL only to get stopped by flash.
Then he slumped and a otherwise consistent and relieable zerg which signature (to me) that he used 3hatch lurker as much as 3 hatch muta.
Now his signature is weird plays and cheeses while choking. So sad.
Browse over the power rankings of that time to see JWD and Riptide (iirc?) ranking him
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On May 19 2011 02:12 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 10:10 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Mortality:
His win was fine, it was a respectable tournament with respectable wins. He didn't really play the best players of the time but I'd compare it to Luxury's MSL: Not the best players, but a whole lot of REALLY good players along the way. I was just saying the other way you can consider a champion a fluke is if they never make a strong run in another title again, in which case Sync, ForGG and Mind are the most notorious. I said fluke player rather than fluke championship. The second biggest fluke championship run was clearly Casy's. Really? REALLY?You're getting to be ridiculous with the way you're throwing around the word fluke and questioning every championship that doesn't feature a bo5 against KeSPA #1.
What? ForGG and Mind had two of the most challenging title runs ever. That's not even my definition of a fluke championship because of how difficult their road was, but it is the tradtional view of a fluke. But okay, listing 3 titles out of like 60 that are most commonly referenced as champions who don't live up to their titles is being ridiculous.
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Traditional by whose standards I would like to know.
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On May 18 2011 12:03 VGhost wrote:
Casy's was a lucky run even in his opponents: he did actually beat Rainbow in a tiebreaker but then the first name I recognize is YellOw in the semi and then ChoJJa in the final, both his best MU. But it's YellOw and ChoJJa even so, both with top ten ZvT ELO peaks. So overall... I'm inclined to say there's not really been a "fluke" title. Hmm.
Casy's a solid contender for worst vP of all time, though. In the last 5 years of his career, he managed an anemic 7-29 (19.44%) against Protoss. One of those wins came against a protoss in single elimination, but an educated opinion would tell you that Casy would have been one of the largest underdogs ever against a Protoss in a Bo3 or Bo5.
It's very strange for a player who's known as completely unable to play a matchup to become a starleague winner, and I think it definitely qualifies as a fluke.
edit: Casy beat RainBOw on a map with a fairly significant (7.5% over 124 games) T>P bias (and a 9.1% / 137 games Z > P bias) , so while it's not a Tears of the Moon or anything, it's a pretty bad Protoss map. I wonder if a VOD of the game is out there anywhere.
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Oh, no question it's a weird-ass way to win a title. When I was making that post I looked the whole thing up. Casy dropped literally every tiebreaker down to the very last game in the very last part of the wild card entry.
And then he didn't play a Protoss in BoX stages.
But he did beat ChoJJa and YellOw - even with favorable maps, that's pretty impressive. He did win. He did somehow make it out of the group stage. It's the closest thing I think BW's seen to a fluke, but I don't think it was somehow "unearned" so I don't want to actually call it one. If that makes sense? It's mostly a question of semantics.
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Only Ra even made it to Ro16 so it's not like luck had a huge factor in dodging Protoss. Casy was never a good TvPer no matter how you look at it, but there was a time when he was able to pull games off good players:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=187&part=games&vs=P&league=any&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=10&from_day=9&to_year=2006&to_month=1&to_day=6&action=Update
Now, can we quit with this fluke discussion? It's seriously stupid. We could question just about every win. While we're here, why not question Jaedong's Ever 07 win as well? No matter how you look at it, JD gimmicked and Stork choked. And I guess NaDa's IOPS run counts for shit because all but one game was against Zerg. And Boxer, King of Gimmickry, I guess he didn't deserve anything?
ASDF. The player who wins has to climb a mountain to get there. No matter what insults you want to throw at him for the bracket he has faced, everyone he faces along the way has also been climbing that same mountain and knocking off the supposedly stronger players. Wahh Wahh Casy didn't face a Protoss. That's because there weren't any left. Wahh Wahh July faced Best instead of Luxury or Flash. That's because they failed to climb to the top of the mountain. Wahh Wahh Stork choked. That's because he's Silver Surfer. Wahh Wahh NaDa is Batman. Too bad motherfuckers.
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Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree.
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It's fine to criticize an accomplishment like winning a Starleague through a weak bracket run, but at the end of the day it's still a championship and there's nothing harder to do in BW. I don't think there's such a thing as a "fluke" gold, only different degrees of difficulty in attaining it, in the specific time periods they were won.
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On May 19 2011 12:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree.
It is offtopic and a discussion is pretty pointless when either of you wont accept to be wrong
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Damn...Stork out of the top 10. I hvaen't seen that before.
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On May 19 2011 17:35 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 12:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree. It is offtopic and a discussion is pretty pointless when either of you wont accept to be wrong
There isn't even a "wrong" in this discussion, and PR threads have a long history of going on about nothing until the end of the month.
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Now this is the perfect power rank :D
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On May 19 2011 12:18 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree.
To be honest, I don't feel like criticizing a Starleague gold is in good conscience. It belittles the efforts of not only the player who achieved that but all the players who fought to climb the same mountain.
Nobody has to stop doing this just because I say so; however proud I may be, I'm not so narcissistic as to think that. But, by the very same token, I have every right to criticize the value of this discussion. All it does is open up a floodgate of complaints and "what ifs." At the end of the day, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. We might not value the winner as the better player for any of a number of reasons -- and that is totally fine -- but the player who climbs the mountain deserves credit for doing so, not ire.
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oh damn
2 tosses in power rank
and one of them's movie lol
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On May 20 2011 14:36 imperfect wrote:
oh damn
2 tosses in power rank
and one of them's movie lol
Didn't realize that, protoss have fallen =(
Still not as bad as the time when free was #1 protoss in kespa rank lol
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EPT
