On May 16 2011 23:36 Iplaythings wrote: While the race distribution for each race of the PR is "somewhat" equal (4T, 4z, 2P) You look at CBNC and see 4 terans
lol
Terran wasn't that great last season, but this season they are looking pretty good. 5 of the top 10 ELO are Terran and there are some others who are moving up the list and Leta who played some solid games of SC. The rise of Terran has naturally caused the list of Zergs to spread more thinly (3 in the top 10, but only 5 in the top 20, a whole bunch of them clustered at 2110 to 2118 ELO). And Protoss... a number of them are congealing in the 10-20 range, a few of them (Movie, Horang2, Snow, Free) working their way up, a couple others nose-diving (Stork, Stats). Currently only 2 Protoss are actually in the top 10: Bisu at #2 and Movie at #10, which ironically are exactly the same as their PR positions.
Man, SK is the only zerg looking good right now. Calm and zero are kinda in the middle, but everyone else just looks bad. Wonder if the queens will catch on if SK continues his success.
I also wonder how much can be attributed to the sheep.
TwoToneTerran with some serious revisionist history in this thread... the only real luck July had was that Luxury megachoked his 2-0 into a 2-3 loss against Best...
July played great that SL. Watch the games maybe. Sure he dropped off after but to say it was a fluke is retarded... the only fluke SL I can think of might be Calm's (*IMO obv*) and even then his victory over JD carries him..
Watched every single game of the starleague run. It is not hard to look impressive when Backho and rock play like trash. The whipping of Best was pretty amusing but we've already covered how big of a letdown Best is. I'm okay with people disagreeing with me on whether or not it was a fluke, but it is by far the most unimpressive starleague run in history.
I just think it was a fluke because he was not considered much of a threat going into the title, it was not a good series of opponents to win the title, and he was never a threat or even considered a threat to win a title after he won the title. These are all the fundamentals of a fluke win in pretty much any competition. He just happens to be July who does own.
I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
On May 17 2011 17:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Watched every single game of the starleague run. It is not hard to look impressive when Backho and rock play like trash. The whipping of Best was pretty amusing but we've already covered how big of a letdown Best is. I'm okay with people disagreeing with me on whether or not it was a fluke, but it is by far the most unimpressive starleague run in history.
I just think it was a fluke because he was not considered much of a threat going into the title, it was not a good series of opponents to win the title, and he was never a threat or even considered a threat to win a title after he won the title. These are all the fundamentals of a fluke win in pretty much any competition. He just happens to be July who does own.
I'd actually agree with you that it was a fluke, though Casy's win is comparable in that regard. Really, I'd compare it to a Skyhigh run for the championship in terran season.
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
So let me get this straight: if people disagree with you and point out that you're wrong, it's somehow pointless to argue with them? Did you expect to get universal support for a questionable position?
We have so different ways of looking at July's gold. For me it was one of the most epic moments in Starcraft when he beat best who was absolutely unstoppable at the time. Don't forget that Best was on his way to become a royal roader and almost no one in the community doubted that he would crush the old Julyzerg who didn't even get to play in PL at the time.
But July is a champion. That SL run was not about playing perfectly or about having a perfect record. It was about fighting and coping with crazy play and nerves. Best got scared and July owned him. Best was never the same after that series. If he had won I'm sure he would have been one of the top players today.
On May 17 2011 21:43 Elroi wrote: We have so different ways of looking at July's gold. For me it was one of the most epic moments in Starcraft when he beat best who was absolutely unstoppable at the time. Don't forget that Best was on his way to become a royal roader and almost no one in the community doubted that he would crush the old Julyzerg who didn't even get to play in PL at the time.
But July is a champion. That SL run was not about playing perfectly or about having a perfect record. It was about fighting and coping with crazy play and nerves. Best got scared and July owned him. Best was never the same after that series. If he had won I'm sure he would have been one of the top players today.
Yet his nerves are what prevented Best from ever being a top player for a prolonged time. A player truly capable of being a top player would be able to recover from being beaten in a finals like that. Bisu eventually did vs Mind, Flash did vs Jaedong, Jaedong somewhat(but not completely) recovered from the losses to Flash, and Stork has been thrashed in finals for a long time, but he always makes his way back. Those are all top players, and the fact that Best can't do the same means that he can't be one.
So assuming that flash finishes the beat down of leta, I guess it will be pretty unanimous for flash #1. Kind of nice when the player who is the " most skilled" and the player with the best record are the same.
I'm more curious how much farther JD slips. It has been ugly for him lately. Well, he should at least be able to make it out of the Ro8, so hopefully for him, he will have rebounded since then.
On May 17 2011 23:21 hacklebeast wrote: So assuming that flash finishes the beat down of leta, I guess it will be pretty unanimous for flash #1. Kind of nice when the player who is the " most skilled" and the player with the best record are the same.
I'm more curious how much farther JD slips. It has been ugly for him lately. Well, he should at least be able to make it out of the Ro8, so hopefully for him, he will have rebounded since then.
I'm not too worried about jaedong, his play is FAR better in individual leagues than in the team leagues. It's just how he functions atm.
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
On May 17 2011 17:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Watched every single game of the starleague run. It is not hard to look impressive when Backho and rock play like trash. The whipping of Best was pretty amusing but we've already covered how big of a letdown Best is. I'm okay with people disagreeing with me on whether or not it was a fluke, but it is by far the most unimpressive starleague run in history.
Agreed on these points.
I just think it was a fluke because he was not considered much of a threat going into the title, it was not a good series of opponents to win the title, and he was never a threat or even considered a threat to win a title after he won the title. These are all the fundamentals of a fluke win in pretty much any competition. He just happens to be July who does own.
He wasn't seen as a threat because his ZvT and ZvZ were not at the level we would expect. Given that it was the height of Protoss season, the only Terran to make Ro8 was Flash (who got eliminated 2-0 by Luxury) and the only other Zerg to make it was Luxury because July survived the all-Zerg group. After Luxury's win I think people considered him the favorite because he only had to make it through Best, but somehow he failed at that -- and let's be honest, it was more because Luxury wasn't that good at ZvP back then than because Best was any good at PvZ.
But if you had told me in advance that July would have an all Protoss path then I would have picked him as one of the favorites, without even having prior knowledge of which toss players he would be facing.
Also, as I said earlier, July also made 4th place in GOM Classic S3 and although he had a relatively easy run there too, the fact is that he did it, so evidently he was more of a title threat than you'd like to believe.
On May 17 2011 21:43 Elroi wrote: We have so different ways of looking at July's gold. For me it was one of the most epic moments in Starcraft when he beat best who was absolutely unstoppable at the time. Don't forget that Best was on his way to become a royal roader and almost no one in the community doubted that he would crush the old Julyzerg who didn't even get to play in PL at the time.
But July is a champion. That SL run was not about playing perfectly or about having a perfect record. It was about fighting and coping with crazy play and nerves. Best got scared and July owned him. Best was never the same after that series. If he had won I'm sure he would have been one of the top players today.
Yet his nerves are what prevented Best from ever being a top player for a prolonged time. A player truly capable of being a top player would be able to recover from being beaten in a finals like that. Bisu eventually did vs Mind, Flash did vs Jaedong, Jaedong somewhat(but not completely) recovered from the losses to Flash, and Stork has been thrashed in finals for a long time, but he always makes his way back. Those are all top players, and the fact that Best can't do the same means that he can't be one.
Nerves are not why Best lost and they are not why he's failed to go places since then. If you look at after that final, he was only barely eliminated from WCG by JD (2-1) in the Ro8, made it to the semifinal in Incruit OSL (the very next season) where an on-fire Stork 3-1'd him, and was tearing it up in GOM until he ran into an on-fire SkyHigh in the Ro8 (SkyHigh was in turn eliminated by an on-fire Bisu in the semi -- this was also the season SkyHigh did the Reverse AK in the SWL finals) and got 2-1'd.
But even at its best it was clumsy, which is the main reason why I've never truly had confidence in it even though his record at the time was actually pretty solid.
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
Bisu seems to be doing pretty well vs JD
Correct me if I'm wrong but in progleauge don't both bisu and stork always do good vs JD?
On May 18 2011 03:40 Mortality wrote: He wasn't seen as a threat because his ZvT and ZvZ were not at the level we would expect. Given that it was the height of Protoss season, the only Terran to make Ro8 was Flash (who got eliminated 2-0 by Luxury) and the only other Zerg to make it was Luxury because July survived the all-Zerg group. After Luxury's win I think people considered him the favorite because he only had to make it through Best, but somehow he failed at that -- and let's be honest, it was more because Luxury wasn't that good at ZvP back then than because Best was any good at PvZ.
But if you had told me in advance that July would have an all Protoss path then I would have picked him as one of the favorites, without even having prior knowledge of which toss players he would be facing.
Also, as I said earlier, July also made 4th place in GOM Classic S3 and although he had a relatively easy run there too, the fact is that he did it, so evidently he was more of a title threat than you'd like to believe.
The thing is, his run in gom wasn't that impressive. Spear, backho, skyhigh? None of these guys can vZ to save their life. He did beat Kal, but I already went over that earlier when I pointed out that Kal had specifically not practiced for Gom because July is a teammate, but July did. No one reasonable expected him to beat Flash, but to get stomped 3-0 (and I mean, Flash was just so plainly better it was sickening. This was when everyone in the world thought that not only was TvZ Flash's bad matchup, that Flash was actually BAD at TvZ -- losses to kwanro, yarnc, jaedong in both tourneys etc.). I remember that one outsider game, 7gas zerg vs 2 1/2 base terran, who wins? Terran of course!
Anyhow he wasn't a threat in that tournament despite his berth. Going all the way up to the semifinals he wasn't a threat to anyone there, as evidenced by Effort kind of smashing him in the 3rd/4th matchup. It's fair enough to say that if you had given him the exact same path to the finals that he had before that he would've been a threat, but well backho and rock are not perennial deep starleaguers for a reason (Rock used to be! Don't chide me for that one). July's win had all the qualities of a fluke in every way and it has proven to be a blip in his success, not a trend. Flukes do that. (it is why Sync was a fluke player, 1 bit of success and VANISH)
But July is a champion. That SL run was not about playing perfectly or about having a perfect record. It was about fighting and coping with crazy play and nerves. Best got scared and July owned him. Best was never the same after that series. If he had won I'm sure he would have been one of the top players today.
See, he actually had a nearly impeccable run in that OSL, only 1 loss to backho and yarnc? 12-2 is a sick run for most people. It was just the quality of his opponents and his followup to becoming champion. Also, Best was never the same after Stork manhandled him, and more recently Flash.
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
Bisu seems to be doing pretty well vs JD
Correct me if I'm wrong but in progleauge don't both bisu and stork always do good vs JD?
Yeah. The two wins he got against them in march was his first ever win against Stork in PL (now 1-5) and his second ever win in PL against Bisu (now 2-8). Meanwhile, he is 2-0 in BoX vs Bisu (3-0 if you count WCG), and 3-0 in BoX vs Stork (5-1 if you count WCG, 6-1 if you count Seoul e-Sports Festival, whatever that was).
Wait a second TwoToneTerran... don't jump on my boy SynC. First of all, NATE OSL gold wasn't his only result. A brief TLPD check would have shown you that. Second of all, SynC was playing against a lot of the top players.
I know you probably don't recognize names like Junior and Jinsu and you might not even recognize JinNam but at the time SynC was playing them they were all top 10 KeSPA. And a number of other names that have been long since forgotten were very solid back then. On top of that if you look at his runs: beating ChRh and HOT -- not to mention helping eliminate The Emporer Himself in group stages -- to win OSL, climbing over Xellos, JinNam, and JinSu to face NaDa in the finals of ITV.
If you want to criticize July for easy competition, that's fine and I agree. I brought up his semis in GOM because from my view pure luck alone is not enough to go that far even just twice. But criticizing SynC's win as a fluke? -_-;;
At one point SynC was 39-19 (67%) back in time when there was no PL, when in order to do that you had to be consistently going 6 wins for every 2 losses in individual league (and it ALWAYS takes at least 2 losses to get eliminated, so do the math). SynC was a strong TvTer in his day ("A-class" only really being a punching bag to S-class TvTers like NaDa and Xellos), a VERY strong TvZer who was pretty much the favorite against anyone not named Yellow all the way up until the dominance of Gorush/July, and good enough at TvP so long as he wasn't facing someone like Ra or Kingdom.
I feel bad for SynC because everyone these days says shit about his win that isn't true. The main reason people weren't watching is because of the World Cup. The main reason people remember NaDa's MSL KPGA wins from this time is that they got absorbed into his legacy, not because everyone was tuning into MSL rather than OSL like so many people on this forum seem to think. FFS, MSL didn't even get threads on TLnet until it was actually called MSL rather than KPGA. You could almost say NaDa made MSL with what he was doing over there at that time.
Edit: and for the record, Flash wasn't really bad at TvZ at that time. This was right before Flash broke out with his super dominance. And the criticism of Flash at the time was more like "stick to SK Terran, it's all you're good at."
EPT
