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United States1524 Posts
On May 14 2011 13:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 12:18 Mortality wrote:On May 13 2011 14:22 darktreb wrote:On May 13 2011 13:58 Mortality wrote:On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote:
Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one. Yes. On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote:On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote:
I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no. Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now. What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player. You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true. Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by: Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0 Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0 Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1 Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1 Which brings us finally to his last series win WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won) Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2 And his last Bo5 win GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1 In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true. gg Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there? I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match. And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result). Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's. FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me? I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years. And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8. You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it. P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level. July's title was a fluke because he played rock, backho, and best. Anyone's title would've been a fluke with that lineup. And while I know people want to make a big deal out of best and such but he's never proved since that he was really a good enough player to be true contender for titles, he just happened to be hot in one tournament and made it there (like Yarnc, Movie, Great, etc. pretty good players who happened upon a final that they probably aren't the correct calibre for).
I don't really agree with the complete dismissal of July's golden mouse winning OSL run. I'm absolutely certain that after he took the finals that he was not the number one player in the world. You are correct he had an easy run and certainly had a run playing only toss (his strength). But his complete dismantling of Best and the anti-sair/reaver build should count for something. I'm not sure how someone could watch that final and not be impressed by July, it was the epitome of a modern mindgame BOx series.
I suppose technically a fluke since he wouldn't have made it that far with any decent terran in his way (as exemplified by what happened when he pulled Flash into his group in the next SL) but July's ZvP was truly excellent.
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On May 15 2011 23:08 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 22:52 jaQi wrote:On May 15 2011 22:06 aupstar wrote:On May 15 2011 14:11 vishrut wrote:On May 15 2011 12:08 aupstar wrote:On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote:
In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL. Don't you mean 2n+1? If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu. he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him. Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often. As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player. Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong. But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players. Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg. What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players. Alright to put it onto context lets see.. Bisu in his last 30games won against only 3 first rate players being Jaedong and Sea and maybe Calm Loses to first rate players: Flash, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, Stats, Leta, Stork, Kal Woot you say? Indeed, Bisu is the most over rated player since sliced bread.
Where is Flash in the list of good players Bisu defeated? Ah I see, he is not good anymore. He didn't win any title for months and who knows for how long? And who did Flash lose to? I think a variety of players, and levels.
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Jaedong the beeestt!! zerg RULES!!
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On May 16 2011 00:53 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 13:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 14 2011 12:18 Mortality wrote:On May 13 2011 14:22 darktreb wrote:On May 13 2011 13:58 Mortality wrote:On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote:
Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one. Yes. On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote:On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote:
I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no. Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now. What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player. You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true. Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by: Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0 Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0 Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1 Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1 Which brings us finally to his last series win WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won) Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2 And his last Bo5 win GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1 In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true. gg Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there? I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match. And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result). Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's. FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me? I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years. And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8. You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it. P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level. July's title was a fluke because he played rock, backho, and best. Anyone's title would've been a fluke with that lineup. And while I know people want to make a big deal out of best and such but he's never proved since that he was really a good enough player to be true contender for titles, he just happened to be hot in one tournament and made it there (like Yarnc, Movie, Great, etc. pretty good players who happened upon a final that they probably aren't the correct calibre for). I don't really agree with the complete dismissal of July's golden mouse winning OSL run. I'm absolutely certain that after he took the finals that he was not the number one player in the world. You are correct he had an easy run and certainly had a run playing only toss (his strength). But his complete dismantling of Best and the anti-sair/reaver build should count for something. I'm not sure how someone could watch that final and not be impressed by July, it was the epitome of a modern mindgame BOx series. I suppose technically a fluke since he wouldn't have made it that far with any decent terran in his way (as exemplified by what happened when he pulled Flash into his group in the next SL) but July's ZvP was truly excellent.
You guys are also forgetting that he came out alive of a ZvZ group after Luxury (2nd best ZvZer) picked him as a safety.
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On May 16 2011 03:59 FakePlasticLove wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 00:53 revy wrote:On May 14 2011 13:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 14 2011 12:18 Mortality wrote:On May 13 2011 14:22 darktreb wrote:On May 13 2011 13:58 Mortality wrote:On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote:
Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one. Yes. On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote:
[quote]
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player. You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true. Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by: Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0 Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0 Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1 Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1 Which brings us finally to his last series win WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won) Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2 And his last Bo5 win GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1 In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true. gg Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there? I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match. And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result). Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's. FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me? I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years. And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8. You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it. P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level. July's title was a fluke because he played rock, backho, and best. Anyone's title would've been a fluke with that lineup. And while I know people want to make a big deal out of best and such but he's never proved since that he was really a good enough player to be true contender for titles, he just happened to be hot in one tournament and made it there (like Yarnc, Movie, Great, etc. pretty good players who happened upon a final that they probably aren't the correct calibre for). I don't really agree with the complete dismissal of July's golden mouse winning OSL run. I'm absolutely certain that after he took the finals that he was not the number one player in the world. You are correct he had an easy run and certainly had a run playing only toss (his strength). But his complete dismantling of Best and the anti-sair/reaver build should count for something. I'm not sure how someone could watch that final and not be impressed by July, it was the epitome of a modern mindgame BOx series. I suppose technically a fluke since he wouldn't have made it that far with any decent terran in his way (as exemplified by what happened when he pulled Flash into his group in the next SL) but July's ZvP was truly excellent. You guys are also forgetting that he came out alive of a ZvZ group after Luxury (2nd best ZvZer) picked him as a safety.
It's true that he came out of a ZvZ group which lends some weight to his win considering ZvZ was his worst match-up at the time. Also he had to beat Mind (who was a very strong player at the time) to even make it that far. But it was also only just a few Bo1 wins.
12 months prior to facing Luxury in Ever 08: 8-10 ZvZ, 11-15 ZvT
12 months after: 5-13 ZvZ, 7-6 ZvT
However, in fairness to July's ZvT, metagame badly favored Terran at the time. In Shinhan 2008 PL, the stats were 35-21 (63%) T > Z, with even JD at only 2-5.
I don't think July's win was a fluke at all, but he certainly was not a well-rounded player when he won and it was certainly not expected that he would make it very far as he was not really considered a top player at the time. And as to whether or not his opponents were enough for him to "prove himself worthy" or some shit like that... I mean, okay, he didn't face the hardest bracket, but as I said, this was the height of Protoss season. What we saw was that all the good Terrans except Flash were being eliminated by Protoss (Flash was eliminated by Luxury 2-0) and since 4 out of 5 of the Zergs were in the same group, only Luxury survived to the Ro8, just to get eliminated by Best, who was not exactly one of the all-time best PvZers.
I think the true significance of July's victory isn't his golden mouse, but that if you look at this time, P was actually ahead of Z in metagame, but July impacted this and by helping turn the balance back in favor of Zerg he helped give rise to swarm season in 2009. I think most people forget that... they attribute this shift in metagame entirely to Jaedong, who was also very strong in ZvP at this time.
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On May 16 2011 00:03 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 23:20 jaQi wrote:On May 15 2011 23:08 aupstar wrote:On May 15 2011 22:52 jaQi wrote:On May 15 2011 22:06 aupstar wrote:On May 15 2011 14:11 vishrut wrote:On May 15 2011 12:08 aupstar wrote:On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote:
In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL. Don't you mean 2n+1? If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu. he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him. Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often. As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player. Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong. But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players. Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg. What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players. Alright to put it onto context lets see.. Bisu in his last 30games won against only 3 first rate players being Jaedong and Sea and maybe Calm Loses to first rate players: Flash, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, Stats, Leta, Stork, Kal Woot you say? Indeed, Bisu is the most over rated player since sliced bread. Lol your obviously lying and trying to conceal the facts and I'm not in a mood to have such a stupid fanboy fight. But just one thing, if you are looking at your glory last 30 games stat a little bit more carefully, then you will find out that the winning list against 1st rate players is a little bit longer, moreover it is anyway crap to count Flash as a 1st rate player in his loss-list but not in his win-list and once again compare the other s-class gamers. The win and loss list are all about the same level. But you don't and you won't get it if you don't pull off the Bisu - hate - glasses. Perhaps you shouldn't post at all if you're not in the mood for a fanboy fight. Please indicate how exactly I am lying before making such accusations.
So the person Bisu beat in the Winners League Final wasn't Flash but his doppelganger?
And the way he dismantled Jaedong recently is typical for someone so overrated?
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I also respect July victory, because he actually was good at something when he won. His zvp was S-class, and with addition of luck he won. Compared to Calm, Luxury or Hydra who won mostly by luck.
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On May 15 2011 22:06 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2011 14:11 vishrut wrote:On May 15 2011 12:08 aupstar wrote:On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote:
In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL. Don't you mean 2n+1? If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu. he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him. Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often. As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player. Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong. But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players. Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
Okay, and now lets compare how many A-teamers Bisu has lost to in the last 30 games and how many Flash has.
You really don't understand the PR do you? It's not about who the most skilled player is, it's about who's playing the best SC:BW atm.
If it was purely based on who we thought were the best then it would TBLS+Fanta and Hydra every month, and then the last 4 spots might shift between guys like Sea/Zero/etc
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On May 16 2011 08:11 arbiter_md wrote:
I also respect July victory, because he actually was good at something when he won. His zvp was S-class, and with addition of luck he won. Compared to Calm, Luxury or Hydra who won mostly by luck.
Now wait just a second. That's definitely not fair towards Calm, Luxury or Hydra.
Calm went 68-32 (68%) in 2009 and was 22-8 (73%) from the time of his first game in Avalon to his last, toppling Sea, ForGG, Effort and Jaedong on his road, not to mention the strong PL results he was producing back then. And statistically Calm's strongest match is ZvP, which he wasn't playing very often. Furthermore, Calm has put his own stamp on modern Zerg play with his smart, aggressive builds bringing ultra-fast lair timings back into ZvT metagame and clever plays such as his tendency to hide lings in ZvZ. And let's not forget how many deep SL runs Calm has had, 6 times making it to Bo5 stages. Calm was definitely pushing the boarder of S-class if not S-class itself back then.
Hydra is a new face, but he could definitely leave his stamp. Last season (counting all game from October 2010 until his finals) he went 43-17 (72%). Similarly to Calm he played 3 ZvZ Bo5's in a row, knocking off JD along the way, and similarly to Calm, ZvZ is not his best match (ZvP is...). If there's one criticism against Hydra it's that his ZvT is relatively unproven, but even then he's over 50% lifetime against a solid line-up. Hydra hasn't really put a stamp on the game yet, but FFS he's still new to this level.
Luxury was the obvious #2 Zerg for the better part of 2008 and into early 2009 and as I already pointed out was the guy who removed Flash from Ever 08 (and if Flash had managed to get through Best, we both know there's no way July would have won), S-class ZvZ clearly better than anyone not named Jaedong, briefly rivaled JD as top dog at ZvP (around the time of his MSL win) and one of the more solid ZvT players during one of the worst periods for ZvT. And the MSL run in question? Exactly how is it luck when you have to go through 2 of the best TvZers in the biz (Hwasin, one of the all-time greatest TvZers, and Leta during the season everyone thought Leta would win a SL) and then face Protoss wunderkind Jangbi (62% PvZ over 12 months, 67% overall, counting his loss to Lux) in the finals? If anything Luxury had a really hard bracket. The only "easy" match was Zero.
I do not think there is a single example in SC history of a player who won a SL but did not deserve it. Some roads may be harder than others, but you don't just luck your way into SL gold.
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How about casy's? I thought the stars were aligned pretty well for him.
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He beat Rock, Backho, and Best. That is the clearest definition of not deserving a title, and it was proven more clear when he went on to be a complete washout in proleague and future individual leagues. He rode his one pretty good matchup (S-Class? Really? Loose term) against not even mediocre protoss players and Best, who himself is not and was not even mediocre in PvZ (yes, he beat Luxury, no, it was not good). You cannot overvalue group stages, especially ZvZ group stages -- back in 2008 the only player who was immune to the flukiness of ZvZ was Jaedong, July's group was not even an impressive one to come out of. Let me put it to you this way, he beat Luxury -- not bad, right? Not that impressive but not bad -- and Rumble. 95% of you reading this don't even remember who Rumble was.
And honestly, I cannot see how you'd give July any credit for the coming of swarm season, even more specifically for his win over Best which, while very clever, hardly impacted the metagame. (what July did in his OSL has only scantly been recreated since then, and I think that's in no part to July doing rather than other zergs happening to be able to devise clever rushes). If you want to thank anyone for bringing a change to clever rushes against protoss in ZvP then that has to go solely to Luxury during his MSL winning stint. PS: No one needs to do an "Anti-sair" build against Best, making scourge at all is an anti-sair build against Best. Best was so bad at PvZ that sairs dying to scourge is named after him.
July was an amazing player, and had 2 completely amazing OSL runs and will forever be a legend. His third title was garbage to the truest degree and if any other player who wasn't a legend had won it they wouldn't get any credit. The only reason July's third title MIGHT not be considered a fluke is because July won it and people like July.
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On May 16 2011 12:16 bearbuddy wrote:
How about casy's? I thought the stars were aligned pretty well for him.
Yes, they were, but even before the stars aligned themselves for Casy I had my eye on him as a potential SL winner. He had such absurdly good control, an ODT second place (losing 2-3 to powerhouse Midas) to his credit and a semifinals appearance before his OSL gold and he achieved another semifinals later on. His TvZ was something to behold and when he won OSL his TvT was also really, really solid, and although his TvP was admittedly quite crappy, it's worth noting that he eliminated some strong toss players at the right times to get where he got (e.g. Kingdom in ODT, Anytime in Shinhan 2005).
Actually, a huge part of the stars aligning for Casy wasn't so much that he was playing a lot of Zergs but that he was playing on maps that forced a more strategic micro intensive style of play at which Casy totally excelled. For example, 815 was a big map around this time. Total stats for Casy: 3-0 on 815, 4-0 on Sin 815, 8-3 on 815 III.
LOL side not here but I totally remember the big argument I had going into that finals with tfeign. For some reason that git thought that Chojja's ZvT was stronger than Savior's. I remember making my predictions about the Casy-Chojja final and RH3 was the map to be played twice and I called that Chojja would win there and Casy would sweep the rest for 3-1 (which actually happened), but that Chojja could achieve the victory if he won on Peaks where his "King of 1 Base Zerg" reputation might come into play, but I still thought Casy had good odds even if he lost on Peaks.
On May 16 2011 12:25 TwoToneTerran wrote:
He beat Rock, Backho, and Best. That is the clearest definition of not deserving a title, and it was proven more clear when he went on to be a complete washout in proleague and future individual leagues. He rode his one pretty good matchup (S-Class? Really? Loose term) against not even mediocre protoss players and Best, who himself is not and was not even mediocre in PvZ (yes, he beat Luxury, no, it was not good). You cannot overvalue group stages, especially ZvZ group stages -- back in 2008 the only player who was immune to the flukiness of ZvZ was Jaedong, July's group was not even an impressive one to come out of. Let me put it to you this way, he beat Luxury -- not bad, right? Not that impressive but not bad -- and Rumble. 95% of you reading this don't even remember who Rumble was.
And honestly, I cannot see how you'd give July any credit for the coming of swarm season, even more specifically for his win over Best which, while very clever, hardly impacted the metagame. (what July did in his OSL has only scantly been recreated since then, and I think that's in no part to July doing rather than other zergs happening to be able to devise clever rushes). If you want to thank anyone for bringing a change to clever rushes against protoss in ZvP then that has to go solely to Luxury during his MSL winning stint. PS: No one needs to do an "Anti-sair" build against Best, making scourge at all is an anti-sair build against Best. Best was so bad at PvZ that sairs dying to scourge is named after him.
July was an amazing player, and had 2 completely amazing OSL runs and will forever be a legend. His third title was garbage to the truest degree and if any other player who wasn't a legend had won it they wouldn't get any credit. The only reason July's third title MIGHT not be considered a fluke is because July won it and people like July.
I'm not gonna lie, you could totally interpret July's win in a light like that, although I don't think it does him justice. Of all the SL victories in all of SC, Ever 08 was the least inspiring and I totally agree that if it had been another Zerg in July's position with comparable recent results and no long term history there would have been boos coming from all corners.
But I personally think the talk wouldn't so much be "only one matchup is even remotely skilled" but more like "one match wonder" (but even that criticism wouldn't be entirely fair). July was extremely dominant at ZvP at that time and I don't think you're giving him due credit.
Also, maybe I was unclear or misspoke, but I don't mean to say that July's particular series against Best was metagame shifting, but rather July's play in general during that time period. Best has put a few high profile wins up against Zerg but he has never, NEVER been a top PvZer.
Edit: Just to state a clear example of July's influence on metagame that can be refuted if I'm wrong, 3 base hydra/muta was not persay July's baby, but he put his stamp on it with 9 pool -> 3 base spire -> 5 hatch hydra. Jaedong's strategy was different. Just to verify I rewatched JD vs Bisu from Arena MSL (which I remember as a moment in JD's new ZvP; although I vaguely recall his series against Kal as good the VODs are gone and the series against Stork was before 3 base muta/hydra... JD was actually very gimmicky in ZvP back then) and the build order he was using was different (12 hatch -> 4 hatch hydra before spire).
But to be clear, I'm not saying this is July's only metagame stamp either.
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I'm gonna put it this way, even if you were a one matchup wonder, and it was protoss, if I said you could beat Best, Rock, and Backho in ZvP, would you say "That's starleague champion calibre" ? No? Then that's my definition of a fluke. Casy was a one matchup wonder, but atleast he played good opponents and even good opponents in that particular matchup. I'm glad July got a golden mouse, but it is by far the worst title run in starcraft history and it's not even close.
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On May 16 2011 15:41 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I'm gonna put it this way, even if you were a one matchup wonder, and it was protoss, if I said you could beat Best, Rock, and Backho in ZvP, would you say "That's starleague champion calibre" ? No? Then that's my definition of a fluke. Casy was a one matchup wonder, but atleast he played good opponents and even good opponents in that particular matchup. I'm glad July got a golden mouse, but it is by far the worst title run in starcraft history and it's not even close.
July might not have played good opponents in that particular SL run, but I know for a fact that it's not fair to say that winning over sucky opponents means you can only win over sucky opponents. You make it sound like that's the highest caliber of player he could beat in a series which isn't true at all.
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That's unprovable. Any player can potentially beat any other player, what matters is what you accomplish and how you live up to your accomplishments in the future, and neither of those are impressive in this case for July. I'm pretty sure you have the same criteria for the greatness of a player considering your hard (and justified) endorsement of Nada. That was the very last spike in July's career that had significantly waned at that point and from then on he did practically nothing to prove that his third title was anything but a fluke.
After July won a freaking OSL title, would you honestly say you thought of him as a threat to any other top player? Even in PvZ, would you have really called him a favorite only not over Bisu, but Kal and Free at the time? I'd wager not. It was a very obvious, and very overrewarded blip.
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In ZvZ or ZvT, no I would not regard July as a threat. In ZvP I damn sure would. None of the 6 dragons have a winning record over July. You're right that this argument is difficult since July's only other deep tournament run was the last season of GOM (where July ended 4th place in a 128 man tourney -- the same one Flash won), consequently we only have 3 series of July vs Dragon (the 3-0 over Best, a 2-1 over Kal in GOM, and a 1-2 to Stork in WCG). In all of 2008 (statistically a good year for July at 79% wins ZvP) the only dragon July faced was Bisu and they went 2-2.
Yes I'd like to see more games against top players during that time period. At the end of the day, results against S-class opponents are really what I want to know. That's always been true and I'm not going to back track on that truism: it's easy to look good against inferior opponents. But the reality is that July does have a history accumulated over 6 years of consistently high level ZvP. There's not a single S-class Protoss in his entire career to have a winning record over him. If that's not S-class then what is?
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On May 16 2011 16:32 Mortality wrote:
In ZvZ or ZvT, no I would not regard July as a threat. In ZvP I damn sure would. None of the 6 dragons have a winning record over July. You're right that this argument is difficult since July's only other deep tournament run was the last season of GOM (where July ended 4th place in a 128 man tourney -- the same one Flash won), consequently we only have 3 series of July vs Dragon (the 3-0 over Best, a 2-1 over Kal in GOM, and a 1-2 to Stork in WCG). In all of 2008 (statistically a good year for July at 79% wins ZvP) the only dragon July faced was Bisu and they went 2-2.
Yes I'd like to see more games against top players during that time period. At the end of the day, results against S-class opponents are really what I want to know. That's always been true and I'm not going to back track on that truism: it's easy to look good against inferior opponents. But the reality is that July does have a history accumulated over 6 years of consistently high level ZvP. There's not a single S-class Protoss in his entire career to have a winning record over him. If that's not S-class then what is?
6 years ago doesn't matter. The only thing that mattered in relation to his 2008 title was his play directly leading up to the title and how he lived up to it afterwards, and he honestly didn't. It's pretty hard to prove how great his ZvP was when he dropped out of every individual league since and didn't play proleague.
Though, I do want to address maybe your best point: he had a 79% winrate in 2008 in ZvP. That stat, by itself, clearly speaks s-class but his competition was not good, nor plentiful. He played a combination of Rock/Backho/Best/Tempest/Foru/Herb/Anytime (All very bad, or formerly good but ailing at the time players) for 14 of his 19 wins. He had 2 respectable wins against Bisu, and a win against Han/Tyson who had deceptively good PvZ back then. He went 1-1 with Much who's respectable if not that great, and dropped a 1 off game to Doctor K that I won't count against him.
But even that doesn't speak of everything. He dropped out of his next OSL to Bisu and Much in a group he made specifically to A: let him get through on the benefit of his ZvP and B: Potentially beat Flash who was his biggest threat in the tournament. He lost to all three to get knocked out. Also, on the matter of his PvZ, he got knocked out of the MSL of the same season to Tempest 0-2 in MST.
July had respectable, sometimes brilliant ZvP. I compare it to, say, Sea's ZvT. Really good, sometimes able to upset even the best player in said matchup, but not good enough or consistently dominant enough to garner "S-class." July was not s-class in ZvP, the only player who would've had S-class PvZ in 2008 to me was Jaedong who not only put up great overall stats, but had to play a whole lot of good protosses along the way (Like Kal and Free, who July never even played in 08.) Hell, he was even capable of knocking Bisu out of a tournament, unlike July.
I'm very disapproving of how often "s-class" gets thrown around, people act like there's 3 or more s-class players in every matchup (Like Snow's PvT or Movie's PvZ or Luxury's ZvZ or like EVERY dragon's PvP at one point, or July's ZvP or Hydra's ZvZ or god knows how many TvZ players). We might have different distinctions on what makes an S-Class matchup but the way I see it, you're not s-class in something unless you're the absolute best or at the very least tied for the best in the matchup to me and July most definitely wasn't a better PvZer than Jaedong in 08, which wasn't even a great ZvP year for Jaedong.
July had really good ZvP, probably second best in 08, and significantly worse in 09 and beyond. It was still a fluke title.
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Flamewheel is PR's Kim Carrier 
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While the race distribution for each race of the PR is "somewhat" equal (4T, 4z, 2P)
You look at CBNC and see 4 terans
lol
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On May 16 2011 17:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 16:32 Mortality wrote:
In ZvZ or ZvT, no I would not regard July as a threat. In ZvP I damn sure would. None of the 6 dragons have a winning record over July. You're right that this argument is difficult since July's only other deep tournament run was the last season of GOM (where July ended 4th place in a 128 man tourney -- the same one Flash won), consequently we only have 3 series of July vs Dragon (the 3-0 over Best, a 2-1 over Kal in GOM, and a 1-2 to Stork in WCG). In all of 2008 (statistically a good year for July at 79% wins ZvP) the only dragon July faced was Bisu and they went 2-2.
Yes I'd like to see more games against top players during that time period. At the end of the day, results against S-class opponents are really what I want to know. That's always been true and I'm not going to back track on that truism: it's easy to look good against inferior opponents. But the reality is that July does have a history accumulated over 6 years of consistently high level ZvP. There's not a single S-class Protoss in his entire career to have a winning record over him. If that's not S-class then what is? 6 years ago doesn't matter. The only thing that mattered in relation to his 2008 title was his play directly leading up to the title and how he lived up to it afterwards, and he honestly didn't. It's pretty hard to prove how great his ZvP was when he dropped out of every individual league since and didn't play proleague. Though, I do want to address maybe your best point: he had a 79% winrate in 2008 in ZvP. That stat, by itself, clearly speaks s-class but his competition was not good, nor plentiful. He played a combination of Rock/Backho/Best/Tempest/Foru/Herb/Anytime (All very bad, or formerly good but ailing at the time players) for 14 of his 19 wins. He had 2 respectable wins against Bisu, and a win against Han/Tyson who had deceptively good PvZ back then. He went 1-1 with Much who's respectable if not that great, and dropped a 1 off game to Doctor K that I won't count against him. But even that doesn't speak of everything. He dropped out of his next OSL to Bisu and Much in a group he made specifically to A: let him get through on the benefit of his ZvP and B: Potentially beat Flash who was his biggest threat in the tournament. He lost to all three to get knocked out. Also, on the matter of his PvZ, he got knocked out of the MSL of the same season to Tempest 0-2 in MST. July had respectable, sometimes brilliant ZvP. I compare it to, say, Sea's ZvT. Really good, sometimes able to upset even the best player in said matchup, but not good enough or consistently dominant enough to garner "S-class." July was not s-class in ZvP, the only player who would've had S-class PvZ in 2008 to me was Jaedong who not only put up great overall stats, but had to play a whole lot of good protosses along the way (Like Kal and Free, who July never even played in 08.) Hell, he was even capable of knocking Bisu out of a tournament, unlike July. I'm very disapproving of how often "s-class" gets thrown around, people act like there's 3 or more s-class players in every matchup (Like Snow's PvT or Movie's PvZ or Luxury's ZvZ or like EVERY dragon's PvP at one point, or July's ZvP or Hydra's ZvZ or god knows how many TvZ players). We might have different distinctions on what makes an S-Class matchup but the way I see it, you're not s-class in something unless you're the absolute best or at the very least tied for the best in the matchup to me and July most definitely wasn't a better PvZer than Jaedong in 08, which wasn't even a great ZvP year for Jaedong. July had really good ZvP, probably second best in 08, and significantly worse in 09 and beyond. It was still a fluke title.
I should hope that my best point would either be on July's influence on metagame (as brilliant as JD's muta/hydra was, it's July's variant that actually became the backbone of what we see today, and it's July's play that influenced many of the all-in timings that were to come during Swarm Season, including Luxury's timings in early 2009).
...Or that July's level of play in 2008 was consistent with the results he had been producing up until that point -- a record of consistently going 50% or better against every "top Protoss" (since you hate the term S-class). From the time of his Gillette OSL run all the way until his 4th place finish in GOM Classic S3 he was not someone to write off no matter who the opponent was. I am not saying "well look, he was beating the best guys back in 2004!" but rather that "in every single year, mid-2004ish through mid-2009ish, he was a serious threat to any top rated Protoss."
And no, that record wasn't entirely spotless but whose ever is? Jaedong failed to go anywhere in Ever 08 because that very same Backho beat him and he failed to advance in GOM Classic S1 because that very same Tempest 2-1'd him out of the tournament. Definitely Jaedong had to prove himself against more -- A LOT more -- of the top talent (and succeed at that he did) during 2008, but whereas July was the #2 ZvP of 2007, Jaedong was coming off a ZvP history of getting 3-1'd by Rock so I would argue that there was a hell of a lot more to prove.
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EPT
