BaBy His form's looking phenomenal... but he needs to learn how to finish games. With not many games played this month, BaBy couldn't showcase his true potential. Therefore, he can only be on CBNC.
Fantasy Had a tough roster to fight this month, but ended on a good note with his wins over Reality and Stork. I wish Fantasy could have held on to his KeSPA ranking, but getting killed by Soulkey's queens twice isn't going to cut it for the PR.
firebathero Though he's 4-4 in the month, the players he have lost against are pretty strong versus Terran. firebathero's still looking pretty strong, though Iris kind of stole his thunder this month.
Light Light had a tough roster for the month, and I liked his wins against BaBy and Fantasy. His games against Hydra were not very impressive, and not having a good showing in the second and third sets against Mind kept him off of PR.
Shoutouts
BeSt Welcome back! And what better comeback victory could be possible?
Grape What a rookie! He's still in the MSL, and has taken out PvP champion Horang2 in the process. He's not looking particularly hot in Proleague though.
Reality This kid's got potential. If you don't believe me, watch his series against Jaedong if you haven't yet--so amazing.
s2 Pretty much this is just for 3-killing KT to spearhead his team's victory in the Winner's League final against KT Rolster. If he had kept it up through the rest of April instead of pretty much losing to everybody, he might make it higher. However, he's still just an SKT Zerg.
I'm a bit disappointed... I mean I knew that Jaedong was going to be #1, but I feel like you haven't really painted how much of a bonjwa he actually is
Movie making a reappearance is always a great sight too.
On May 09 2011 06:35 Nikon wrote: I'm a bit disappointed... I mean I knew that Jaedong was going to be #1, but I feel like you haven't really painted how much of a bonjwa he actually is
Movie making a reappearance is always a great sight too.
1.) Light should have been mentioned IMO. I don't know why you think otherwise.
2.) I'd hesitate to give Iris a spot. Yes he went 5-1 but even if you look deeper at the stats... none of his wins were against players over 2150 ELO (none over 2100 vs T), and none of those players are what I would precisely label as "solid" right now. Not to mention that Iris's TvP has been utterly atrocious lately.
Personally I would have put Light at 8 and Iris on CBNC, or else if you have a reason not to rank Light, then Light on CBNC and move Movie to 9, FBH to 10, and Iris to CBNC. That's my take.
On May 09 2011 06:53 Mortality wrote: Pretty good PR, but I have two criticisms:
1.) Light should have been mentioned IMO. I don't know why you think otherwise.
2.) I'd hesitate to give Iris a spot. Yes he went 5-1 but even if you look deeper at the stats... none of his wins were against players over 2150 ELO (none over 2100 vs T), and none of those players are what I would precisely label as "solid" right now. Not to mention that Iris's TvP has been utterly atrocious lately.
Personally I would have put Light at 8 and Iris on CBNC, or else if you have a reason not to rank Light, then Light on CBNC and move Movie to 9, FBH to 10, and Iris to CBNC. That's my take.
Oh, my bad--I forgot to input him for CBNC. He's had a tough roster for the month, and I liked his wins against BaBy and Fantasy. His games against Hydra were not very impressive, and Mind despite playing a very entertaining TvT against Mind in the MSL, Mind kind of killed him in the second and third.
Actually, in retrospect now I kind of do think I could have put him over Movie. I still stand by my choice of Iris though. Call me biased, but you have to admit that it's more impressive when ACE players do well--just consider the lack of practice partners. Since I'm not wont to change the PR after putting all the ranks in, I'll keep him back on the CBNC.
Great PR as always! I like the way you balance subjectivity and objectivity. However, I don't think that the games that Bisu played against Flash were close: Flash outplayed him imo. But you're probably right in putting Bisu at #2 because of Flash's strange losses recently.
I really think Light should be somewhere on the ranking.
seeing as how Jaedong decided he was going to start being all out of bubble gum again.
I'm so happy that Jaedong is the uncontested #1 this month. It warms my heart. Also that Mind is high on the ranking.
I know this sounds odd but I think Horang2 is a better candidate for #10 than Movie. Yes he lost his MSL to Grape (rookie, if a good one), but imo he's more important to CJ and at this point is the more-rounded player... and has been playing better.
On May 09 2011 07:31 Elroi wrote: However, I don't think that the games that Bisu played against Flash were close: Flash outplayed him imo. But you're probably right in putting Bisu at #2 because of Flash's strange losses recently.
Glad to see Jaedong back at the top of the PR, and I hope it stays this way for a while.. just until he wins his 6th and 7th titles anyways Flash can take over again at that point
This is the first of your power ranks that I majorly disagree with.
What I would have done:
- Swapped Bisu and Flash. Sure Flash lost to Much but his ace match wins of late have been brutal. Plus he 2-0d Bisu in MSL. - Mind, while it's great to see him up there, is too high at 4. - Leta and Zero should not be there at all, replaced with Fantasy and Light.
Jaedong at #1 was a shoo-in though! I'm happy with Movie and Iris being on the rank too.
I haven't quite followed his games, but the ones i did see were pretty darn good. I'm glad to see the tyrant back in shape
I find it interesting that Flash/Jaedong/Bisu are the top 3 this month. They're playing some of the best BW games I've seen in a while, and they seem to be ahead of everyone else. What makes me sad, though, is the lack of Stork in the top 10 (and even the CBNC =[ ), and only 2 tosses in the top 10 (*sigh* Protoss, you need to step up your game =[ ).
yeah, I think the first 3 are correct but mind too high, soulkey too high(he lost to leta), Stork had some huge games against Hydra, dunno why Hydra is above him... Also, how can fantasy not be on there? Iris? Zero? Movie? Don't think any of these are better than Fantasy. Not that I like Fantasy, just seems like you didn't consider every player before making it.
(Gee, I remember when Stork became the most popular progamer on TL, mostly on the back [abs?] of those homoerotic pictures of him. Glad that's receded a bit.)
On May 09 2011 09:58 Eywa- wrote: yeah, I think the first 3 are correct but mind too high, soulkey too high(he lost to leta), Stork had some huge games against Hydra, dunno why Hydra is above him... Also, how can fantasy not be on there? Iris? Zero? Movie? Don't think any of these are better than Fantasy. Not that I like Fantasy, just seems like you didn't consider every player before making it.
Zero and Hydra both looked sharper than Stork and Fanta. Movie has been up and down lately but this past month pretty up. Iris is the debatable one since he played a weaker line-up and dodged his worst MU.
PR isn't just about skill but also momentum, and results, which Stork and Fanta have totally lacked. But even by skill... Stork has had some shitty games lately and Fanta has just not played good enough on too many occasions.
On May 09 2011 10:00 qrs wrote: Lots of Jaedong fans on Team Liquid.
(Gee, I remember when Stork became the most popular progamer on TL, mostly on the back [abs?] of those homoerotic pictures of him. Glad that's receded a bit.)
On May 09 2011 09:58 Eywa- wrote: yeah, I think the first 3 are correct but mind too high, soulkey too high(he lost to leta), Stork had some huge games against Hydra, dunno why Hydra is above him... Also, how can fantasy not be on there? Iris? Zero? Movie? Don't think any of these are better than Fantasy. Not that I like Fantasy, just seems like you didn't consider every player before making it.
Zero and Hydra both looked sharper than Stork and Fanta. Movie has been up and down lately but this past month pretty up. Iris is the debatable one since he played a weaker line-up and dodged his worst MU.
PR isn't just about skill but also momentum, and results, which Stork and Fanta have totally lacked. But even by skill... Stork has had some shitty games lately and Fanta has just not played good enough on too many occasions.
Of course which means it should be whoever you fear to play more, Flash would prob be 3rd since Bisu/Jaedong haven't been giving up random wins. I mean Fantasy played extremely well last night winning 2 games for SKT's comeback against Khan. Don't see what you mean by him not playing sharp. Would players fear Stork/Fantasy more that Soulkey, I think so. + Stork beat Hydra in a best of 3 so I don't know how Hydra looks any sharper.
Yeah, bisu is playing cleaner than Flash. I agree with Flamewheel that Flash is really likely to overtake bisu next month. (unless he plays smarter in his games and wins, some of his plays look uninspiring)
pretty good pr cant find too much fault at iris position since every time an ace player manages to do well its so rare we need to celebrate it in some way they are after all limited in practice time good summary on what happen this month would be nice to add the 200th win to jaedong
Yay Jaedong reclaiming the #1 spot! So happy for him. Also I haven't heard anything about Movie in a very, very long time. It's interesting to see him take #10.
Agree with Jaedong number 1, but Bisu over Flash??
Ok, I admit Flash had some random losses, but Bisu's only big wins were at the very beginning of the month. Since then, he's been consistent, but he hasn't beaten any good players and he got whipped by Flash in two games (second one wasn't that close--when was Flash in danger of losing?).
Who would you pick to win head to head? Flash. Who would you pick to win a starleague? Flash. Who would you rather have as your team's ace? It's arguable, but I'd sure pick Flash.
On May 09 2011 11:14 nbaker wrote: Agree with Jaedong number 1, but Bisu over Flash??
Ok, I admit Flash had some random losses, but Bisu's only big wins were at the very beginning of the month. Since then, he's been consistent, but he hasn't beaten any good players and he got whipped by Flash in two games (second one wasn't that close--when was Flash in danger of losing?).
Who would you pick to win head to head? Flash. Who would you pick to win a starleague? Flash. Who would you rather have as your team's ace? It's arguable, but I'd sure pick Flash.
Flash also did just lose to Much this week. Bisu has been playing so beautiful and so consistently in SPL for months on end, and he's probably one of the best people right now to challenge JD in a best-of series.
I can't argue with the Much thing, but I think it's wrong to say Bisu is more favored to beat Jaedong than Flash. How many times has Bisu beaten Jaedong in a bo5? How many times has Flash beaten him in a bo5? Bisu beat Jaedong before Jaedong caught fire and Flash beat Jaedong before that as well.
While I am most pleasantly surprised that Bisu is second (I honestly thought he would be 3rd given him dropping out of the Group of Death), I can't help but feel that if this Power Rank was released earlier then Flash would probably be 2nd.
On May 09 2011 09:58 Eywa- wrote: yeah, I think the first 3 are correct but mind too high, soulkey too high(he lost to leta), Stork had some huge games against Hydra, dunno why Hydra is above him... Also, how can fantasy not be on there? Iris? Zero? Movie? Don't think any of these are better than Fantasy. Not that I like Fantasy, just seems like you didn't consider every player before making it.
Zero and Hydra both looked sharper than Stork and Fanta. Movie has been up and down lately but this past month pretty up. Iris is the debatable one since he played a weaker line-up and dodged his worst MU.
PR isn't just about skill but also momentum, and results, which Stork and Fanta have totally lacked. But even by skill... Stork has had some shitty games lately and Fanta has just not played good enough on too many occasions.
Of course which means it should be whoever you fear to play more, Flash would prob be 3rd since Bisu/Jaedong haven't been giving up random wins. I mean Fantasy played extremely well last night winning 2 games for SKT's comeback against Khan. Don't see what you mean by him not playing sharp. Would players fear Stork/Fantasy more that Soulkey, I think so. + Stork beat Hydra in a best of 3 so I don't know how Hydra looks any sharper.
Errrr... what?
The argument of fear I can understand and respect, but if we're talking fear, then TBLS + Fanta should be top 5 every month no matter how many losses they take. Even if Flash loses his next 20 games in a row he will still be one of the most feared players on the planet. That's just the reality. One or two or three months of bad play does not erase years of dominance.
PR is more dynamic than that and it is that dynamic element that caught Stork and Fanta. I like the fear argument when trying to decide between two players who are comparable, but Stork and Fanta have not played comparably well with those above them.
Contrary to what you seem to believe, Stork (6-6) is out of MSL and dropped the ball hard several times last month at least a couple times making fundamental mistakes. I hate to say it, but Stork deserved to drop below 2200 ELO (which he did) with the way he played. Fantasy's record last month (5-6, was 3-6 up until last night) doesn't entirely do him justice because he's been playing pretty well... but in his losses he's been solidly out-played.
On May 09 2011 11:27 nbaker wrote: I can't argue with the Much thing, but I think it's wrong to say Bisu is more favored to beat Jaedong than Flash. How many times has Bisu beaten Jaedong in a bo5? How many times has Flash beaten him in a bo5? Bisu beat Jaedong before Jaedong caught fire and Flash beat Jaedong before that as well.
Considering their recent matches and current states of play I see Bisu beating JD in a bo5 convincingly, but I'm not to sure about Flash doing so.
On May 09 2011 11:27 nbaker wrote: I can't argue with the Much thing, but I think it's wrong to say Bisu is more favored to beat Jaedong than Flash. How many times has Bisu beaten Jaedong in a bo5? How many times has Flash beaten him in a bo5? Bisu beat Jaedong before Jaedong caught fire and Flash beat Jaedong before that as well.
Bisu and JD haven't met in a bo5 in a long, long time and it was a tense 3-2 in JD's favor in a non-standard league event.
JD has won his last two encounters with Flash, both this past month. He's only won 1 of his last 7 encounters against Bisu (all encounters since 1/1/2009), 1-1 in his last 2.
I think Flash is a better player than Bisu, but right now Bisu seems to have JD's number well and truly figured out. However, even though I think Flash is the better player, I agree with the ranking. Flash has been dropping more games (8-6 since April 1) than you expect Flash to drop and unlike the situation in June of last year, he's not coming fresh off an MSL gold medal.
For the first time in a long time, Flash has something to prove.
Aaaaand the world just got a little bit better. I was going to post how upset I was at having to wait this long, as it has been May for a while now, but I just remembered that I paid rent today, 8 days late. So, I guess it's cool. Thanks flamewheel
I'd say Bisu would have a pretty good chance of taking down JD in a PL game. Probably just as good as Flash. However, he has proved NOTHING in Starleagues and BoX's for a ridiculously long time.
I'm just shocked Mind is up there so high. Wasn't expecting that at all, though I suppose it is possible to say that the others didn't perform as well...
On May 09 2011 11:27 nbaker wrote: I can't argue with the Much thing, but I think it's wrong to say Bisu is more favored to beat Jaedong than Flash. How many times has Bisu beaten Jaedong in a bo5? How many times has Flash beaten him in a bo5? Bisu beat Jaedong before Jaedong caught fire and Flash beat Jaedong before that as well.
Bisu and JD haven't met in a bo5 in a long, long time and it was a tense 3-2 in JD's favor in a non-standard league event.
JD has won his last two encounters with Flash, both this past month. He's only won 1 of his last 7 encounters against Bisu (all encounters since 1/1/2009), 1-1 in his last 2.
I think Flash is a better player than Bisu, but right now Bisu seems to have JD's number well and truly figured out. However, even though I think Flash is the better player, I agree with the ranking. Flash has been dropping more games (8-6 since April 1) than you expect Flash to drop and unlike the situation in June of last year, he's not coming fresh off an MSL gold medal.
For the first time in a long time, Flash has something to prove.
I almost always agree with you Mortality, but I don't think its time to say Flash has something to prove...not just yet anyway. Flash has yet to lose a Bo5 (or Bo3 unless you count WCG) since Effort pulled off that sick comeback in KA OSL S1. And though Flash has been dropping games more than usual, I remember him dropping games in relatively the same number back during his ace curse before the Bigfile finals.
If anyone has something to prove this season, it's JD, because PDPop was supposed to be his win (and we all know he didn't get it), and now there's a pretty good chance that he meets Flash in the finals yet again. Jaedong's road to the finals (and hopefully a 6th SL) will be:
1) Proving that his ZvP isn't as shaky as his record indicates. I know it's against Grape, but he has Stork as a practice partner (and Stork always plays JD well) and Jaedong has not ZvP'd since he played Bisu in the WL playoffs. 2) Proving that his ZvZ can be dominant again, against Calm, who I think has ZvZ'd his way into the Ro8. (It could be ZerO, but I just really don't see it happening). 3) Proving his ZvT can win him a Bo5 (probably against Flash). I don't see Hydra's ZvT winning him 2 Bo5's T_T
I know you didn't say Jaedong didn't have anything to prove and truthfully I kinda used your post to throw it out there
But honestly, I know Flash is looking shaky, but I just don't think Flash is at the point of having something to prove. I think if he drops a Bo5 series this MSL, then he will have something to prove next season. Just not now ^^
Very good rank, I have a few small disagreements but overall it is a good rank and well written. JD at #1 is for sure, he is definitely looking like the tyrant again.
I personally would put Flash at #2 and Bisu #3 but either order is justifiable (Flash's loss to Much makes my position a more difficult to justify however).
Mind I agree with at #4, he has been looking just plain fucking good recently and definitely deserves such a high position. #5-#8 are all pretty even in my opinion so any ordering of them is fine by me.
#9 and #10 are really tough to pick this month and your picks are just as good as anyone I would put in those positions (I think I would put Light and FBH in those spots but everyone on CNBC and Movie/Iris are totally justifiable).
2011 is Jaedongs year of dominance. Hope you enjoyed your run flash :D.
I am hoping thats true anyway . It really is great too see jaedong playing so solid right now. I know in 2010 when he was losing to flash it seemed even against other terrans he was struggling a lot. He kept doing lots of greedy stuff that cost him a lot of games.
Really hoping he keeps this and this isn't just a good month, hope it goes into a good year and hope he beats Nada's record :D
On May 09 2011 12:18 Holgerius wrote: I'd say Bisu would have a pretty good chance of taking down JD in a PL game. Probably just as good as Flash. However, he has proved NOTHING in Starleagues and BoX's for a ridiculously long time.
funny, since part of Bisu's strengths used to be his series play, whereas he was more likely to randomly drop single games (back when he was not as godly in PL). Seems to have been reversed TT
On May 09 2011 12:18 Holgerius wrote: I'd say Bisu would have a pretty good chance of taking down JD in a PL game. Probably just as good as Flash. However, he has proved NOTHING in Starleagues and BoX's for a ridiculously long time.
funny, since part of Bisu's strengths used to be his series play, whereas he was more likely to randomly drop single games (back when he was not as godly in PL). Seems to have been reversed TT
Difference between SKT1 and MBC is how much they focus on PL. Funny though, since the last time an MBC player was in a finals was Bisu iirc
On May 09 2011 12:18 Holgerius wrote: I'd say Bisu would have a pretty good chance of taking down JD in a PL game. Probably just as good as Flash. However, he has proved NOTHING in Starleagues and BoX's for a ridiculously long time.
Yeah, seriously. Bisu has turned into Flash 2009 at this point - proleague monster, capable of beating anyone and the favorite against almost everyone, but with some specific weaknesses (Bisu can't beat Flash right now without a lot of things going his way ... such as a BO advantage on Aztec, yeah he earned that win but still). Also, thoroughly incapable of getting deep in leagues, to the point where we can't even tell if he'd be good in BoX because he's NOT MAKING ANY.
Flash has been surprisingly mediocre lately by his standards. It really hasn't been a good month for him and it's amazing how Bisu/Flash are both simultaneously looking very flawed these days yet still clearly head and shoulders above any possible #4. I still think Flash can gear back up to 100% by the MSL finals (which he will make against the Dong) and the stars are aligning for this to be the best FvJ ever - golden badge and Nada's record on the line, Jaedong's ZvT looking better than anyone's ZvT has ever, the roles being reversed with Flash being the old favorite who is looking a little worn down all of a sudden, reasonable maps (maybe??).
FvJ just isn't as fun when Flash is humming on all cylinders and Jaedong isn't, and I say this as a Flash fan who admittedly doesn't mind watching Flash stomp, because Flash at his peak is just too good for things to be interesting, and ZvT is simply too hard against someone that good when the Zerg isn't rocking that matchup.
Who would you pick to win head to head? Flash. Who would you pick to win a starleague? Flash. Who would you rather have as your team's ace? It's arguable, but I'd sure pick Flash.
Who would you pick yo win head to head between JD and Bisu? Bisu. So who should be #1? Who would you pick to win a SL? Bisu if he does not faces Flash in group stage. JD if he does not face Bisu in Group stage (which is true). Flash if he doesn't have to face JD again. He was destroyed the last two times. So who is the favorite? Who would you rather have as your team's ace? Hard to tell, it depends on your team's roster. If you need a Zerg killer, Bisu or JD; Terran killer, JD or Flash or Bisu; Protoss killer, JD or Flash. Who would you think will be most likely to lose random games to inferior players? Flash. (a fact) Who would you think will be most likely to lose in the WL final? Flash. (a fact, JD was not in the final) And Bisu-Flash ratio was 1-2. Bisu's win was the final decider. He won JD before that also. Just some opinions, plz don't bash me.
hmm very good PR this month. though i believe Leta shouldn't be this high up. he's really been poor in SPL lately. Plus I also think iris should be ranked a little bit higher considering he's from ACE and they don't get enough practice time. but that's just my opinion.
Don't agree with Bisu over Flash, I didn't think the games were close at all, and Bisu is once again out of yet another MSL (ro32) while Flash is in the ro8. Other than that all seems ok, Iris got his well deserved spot on the PR.
JD at the top of the PR again brings us one step closer to world peace. I'd love to comment on more of the PR but nothing else seems relevant in my biased mind.
The top half of the PR I pretty much agree with, but damn, I can't say anyone particularly sticks out for the bottom half. Though I guess since that's so, I can't really argue with that half because everyone else shows more weakness than those 5. Oh and cool sheep.
On May 09 2011 14:47 Deeeno wrote: JD at the top of the PR again brings us one step closer to world peace. I'd love to comment on more of the PR but nothing else seems relevant in my biased mind.
Funny how a Tyrant on top of the food chain brings us closer to world peace (especially when god himself is only third).
I know you gave ample justification for Bisu over Flash, but I just can't agree with it, given that Flash beat Bisu twice and knocked Bisu out of the MSL. It's close, but I think Flash should be on top.
Flash-Jaedong-Bisu is turning to be a rock-paper-scissors soon, with the wrong matchup being favored at each of the 3 turns. (Of course, taking into account jaedong will continue to beat flash). WOO HOOO JAEDONG edit: why are the posters posting without the sheep in them not being banned? + Show Spoiler +
I also think Flash should have been #2 and Bisu #3. I get pretty nervous when I see Bisu PvP. Like yesterday's match against Khan, I was relieved to see Bisu playing great rather than Stork in set 5, and was again relieved to see it was Fantasy sent as the ace to face Stork. On the other hand, no matter who I see Flash play against, I always think that Flash is going to win. Whether he does or not is another matter, but his overall "force" is still undeniable. (However, the Bisu fan in me is happy to see him at #2 ^^)
Thanks for the great writeup as usual! (and omg that sheep is too cute!)
This is a bad PR. Bisu as second when Flash rolfstomped him twice in a row? Bisu may be a good player on proleague, but he's terrible at individual leagues? When was the last time he played a BoX? The PR should take in account results both in proleague and in MSL/OSL. He should be clearly behind Flash. And what about the "if" in the group of death? If he had played Jaedong, he would have lost just like Flash. Jaedong went there to win and to prove a point. He would have beat Bisu easily.
I am a little worried about Jaedong in that he really, really should have lost to Reality. People trumpeted up his win and rallied around him there, but Reality essentially threw game 3 away after having sealed a win (why the fuck didn't he bunker up/seal off his base and win 2base Terran vs. 1base Zerg???)
Jaedong has looked incredibly impressive all month but that series was him getting out-thought and partially outplayed by a relative unknown and only winning through a fluke of bad decision-making at the last possible moment.
I still think he should be #1, with Flash #2 (Bisu has major weaknesses in decision-making and wins too many games through intimidation factor alone, not to mention getting badly beat by Flash in MSL and having not made a run at an individual league in FOREVER) but I'm not sure if JD has the stuff to hold onto it.
Actually, Bisu at #2 is the most glaring WTF for me, because he has seriously not shown his ability to consistently beat top players in a really long time now. He reminds me of Kal in a lot of ways, beating players we know are worse than him and sometimes taking games off players that are better, but getting badly hosed in series play against a superior player such as Flash or JD. I would not bet on him versus any S-class player in a BO5 and would be hesitant to bet on him versus many A+ players such as ZerO, Stork, or even possibly Sea. He is stubborn and has trouble adapting to unexpected situations and I see that bogging him down time and time again.
Bisu's success in PL is largely based on the new style of matches where players are not announced beforehand. When players are just practicing a standard macro game on various maps, it is easier for Bisu to just barrel forward and run a broad, consistent strategy without having to worry about shit falling out of line. As soon as a player has time to prepare for a specific matchup/map, I see him crumbling every time because he has no idea what to do. This is a thing that does not happen to Flash and to me makes Flash a clear #2 without a shred of doubt.
unless movie's just destroyed some people the last couple of days where i've not been able to watch anything i don't understand his inclusion at all, but it's only #10 and i don't think there's anyone that's a hugely glaring omission
On May 09 2011 17:12 tedster wrote: Actually, Bisu at #2 is the most glaring WTF for me, because he has seriously not shown his ability to consistently beat top players in a really long time now. He reminds me of Kal in a lot of ways, beating players we know are worse than him and sometimes taking games off players that are better, but getting badly hosed in series play against a superior player such as Flash or JD. I would not bet on him versus any S-class player in a BO5 and would be hesitant to bet on him versus many A+ players such as ZerO, Stork, or even possibly Sea. He is stubborn and has trouble adapting to unexpected situations and I see that bogging him down time and time again.
He won over JD 3 out of the last 4 they met since the beginning of this season. And that means a period of several months now. He just beat JD and Flash in a row in WL final and Flash didn't win him in any BoX recently. On the other hand, Flash has lost his power to consistently beat top players AND mediocre players for a while now. His last season's SLs runs (BOTH of them), his WL final. He lost to JD the last 2 times they met. He occasionally lost to Stork and Bisu. And he lost to a variety of players including Really, Much, Best, Baby...You base on 1 MSL to conclude that he is better than Bisu? I can say otherwise based on 1 WL playoff final. Some says look at how he dominated in some particular games when he won. I can say look at all BvZ games (when Bisu won, and there is a bunch of them), his PvT when he won (again, a bunch of them, including the game vs Flash), his PvP when he won (some great comebacks). So what now? About the MSL group stage, Bisu needs one win to advance. So it's safe to consider those games as two Bo1 on the same day. And people have a day off, just like Flash in the last MSL and JD when he lost to Hogil in the last OSL.
Don't get why everyone is hating on Bisu over Flash. I think he deserves this spot. There are many arguments to put Bisu over Flash (yes of course the other way round either), but PR will be written by (don't get me wrong) some (fixed) great editors, i.e. if someone else have written it, it could look different. So of course many of you are not satisfied with this months PR, but on the other hand, a lot of people do agree with this PR. Of course you dan have a different opinion, but saying " this is a bad PR" is too much I think. You should respect that PR, this is what I learned from the last PR's. In addition to that from my point of view, this is a good PR, the only thing is maybe I hoped Best appears in this month PR, but maybe he has not shown us enough stuff. Never the less, great PR hope you continue the good work.
Nice ranking but I don't agree with Bisu over Flash. The games weren't close at all; Flash straight up outplayed Bisu twice. So what if Flash has a few losses to scrubs in SPL? What's important is that he made it through the Group of Death. Just repeatedly winning against scrubs in PL doesn't cut it for #2.
On May 09 2011 19:09 writer22816 wrote: Nice ranking but I don't agree with Bisu over Flash. The games weren't close at all; Flash straight up outplayed Bisu twice. So what if Flash has a few losses to scrubs in SPL? What's important is that he made it through the Group of Death. Just repeatedly winning against scrubs in PL doesn't cut it for #2.
Scrubs like Flash in WL Finals? Scrubs like JD in a clutch Ace match?
Get your head out of you a**, thanks , that happened all this month.
And the guy who thinks "Flash" is the one who is most likely to lose to a random scrub.. Just, no. That's Bisu/Stork (or "Protoss" for that matter), Flash is the most stable player since like.. ever.
On May 09 2011 19:09 writer22816 wrote: Nice ranking but I don't agree with Bisu over Flash. The games weren't close at all; Flash straight up outplayed Bisu twice. So what if Flash has a few losses to scrubs in SPL? What's important is that he made it through the Group of Death. Just repeatedly winning against scrubs in PL doesn't cut it for #2.
Losing against them is better? Lol I agree with you (not!). The important thing is making it out of Group of Death? Losing in the WL final even with plenty of time to prepare doesn't matter? Losing consecutively to JD doesn't matter? Edit: remember MSL group stage was within one day, and people have a day off sometimes. Remember Flash's last MSL?
On May 09 2011 19:09 writer22816 wrote: Nice ranking but I don't agree with Bisu over Flash. The games weren't close at all; Flash straight up outplayed Bisu twice. So what if Flash has a few losses to scrubs in SPL? What's important is that he made it through the Group of Death. Just repeatedly winning against scrubs in PL doesn't cut it for #2.
Scrubs like Flash in WL Finals? Scrubs like JD in a clutch Ace match?
Get your head out of you a**, thanks , that happened all this month.
And the guy who thinks "Flash" is the one who is most likely to lose to a random scrub.. Just, no. That's Bisu/Stork (or "Protoss" for that matter), Flash is the most stable player since like.. ever.
Based on the "current" result, especially within the last 5 weeks, Flash, out of top 3, is the one who is most likely to lose to mediocre players, case in point: Much, Really, Best (when he is slumping). Bisu lost to Flash and Zero (Flash and JD both once lost to him this season).
On May 09 2011 19:32 Kipsate wrote: Bisu is out of the MSL though, that has got to count for something.
I don't agree with Movie over FBH but thats just fanboyism.
Flash lost in the WL final, lost to JD twice, lost more matches than Bisu and JD did, now THOSE must count for something. Edit: I don't want to pursue Flash fans to convincingly think that Bisu deserved #2 spot than Flash did. That would be unrealistic. I just want to point out that there are reasons to think so. And try to justify editor's opinion. It's not as ridiculous as some of you are accusing.
The top 3 is just like i imagined and just as i would put them in order. Bisu hasn't done well in individual leagues, but he is done amazing job in proleague, so imo deserves the 2nd spot over Flash.
I don't see how Bisu has Jaedong's number after a few Bo1 victories.
I agree with Jaedong being at the top but not with Bisu being #2.
Everyone thought Bisu could beat Flash convincingly after his Bo1 defeat of Flash in winners league finals (though mostly SKT fanboys - just go look back at the live thread)...but everyone remembers what happened..it wasn't even funny..Bisu got stomped even when Flash had a bo disadvantage after his proxy rax was discovered. You could see it plainly on Flash's face, he thought he had lost it then and there.
Bisu has never beaten Jaedong in a bo3 or bo5 and I don't see how Bisu going around stomping lower level players in Proleague somehow makes him better than Flash. Bisu is not even in MSL anymore!
On May 09 2011 12:18 Holgerius wrote: I'd say Bisu would have a pretty good chance of taking down JD in a PL game. Probably just as good as Flash. However, he has proved NOTHING in Starleagues and BoX's for a ridiculously long time.
Yeah, seriously. Bisu has turned into Flash 2009 at this point - proleague monster, capable of beating anyone and the favorite against almost everyone, but with some specific weaknesses (Bisu can't beat Flash right now without a lot of things going his way ... such as a BO advantage on Aztec, yeah he earned that win but still)..
Aztec is an imbalanced map in PvT AND he had a BO advantage... A lot of progamers would have won in that situation.
I think it was to early to place Bisu over Flash . Flash has shown signs of weakness , but Bisu mainly plays PvZ nowadays while Flash is beeing targeted by all races . Bisu hasn't shown the dominance in PvP , he can be considered an underdog against a few protoss and 50% - 50% against others . Flash on the other hand is the clear favourite against every terran in the world even after droping 1 game against Really . Flash is also the favourite against Bisu , because he beat him twise in the group of death . Yes Flash lost to Best and Much , but those 2 players are one of the best PvTers of all time and can show brilliant games from time to time even while slumping . In his game against Much , Flash took a risk and with a little luck he could have won that game if he killed the nexus , his risky build didn't end up working to the fullest and he ended up losing . Bisu's PvZ while glorifing it isn't exactly invincible either top ZvPers like Zero , Hydra and Jaedong if he gets his shit in ZvP back together can beat him , just like players like Best can take games of Flash .
All in all i think that the facts that Flash is the best TvTer in the world and that he beat Bisu twise in the same day warrants enough evidence to put Flash over Bisu in the PR . In the end Flash will be aiming to get another title while Bisu will be stuck in PL again for some time now .
i agree with the fact that jaedong has played better sc than flash has this month and wasn't surprised at jaedong being #1 but if you argue that flash was placed below bisu for losses to much and best, tvp, which is arguably his current "worst" match up while he has shown tremendous performance in TvT, it doesnt add up to jaedong being at #1 with his recent ZvZ losses which translated in Oz dropping a couple of games in SPL. that being said, I still respect the decision of Jaedong being #1 but disagree with Bisu being over Flash
On May 10 2011 02:45 noojOh wrote: i agree with the fact that jaedong has played better sc than flash has this month and wasn't surprised at jaedong being #1 but if you argue that flash was placed below bisu for losses to much and best, tvp, which is arguably his current "worst" match up while he has shown tremendous performance in TvT, it doesnt add up to jaedong being at #1 with his recent ZvZ losses which translated in Oz dropping a couple of games in SPL. that being said, I still respect the decision of Jaedong being #1 but disagree with Bisu being over Flash
Except that there was only 1 ZvZ loss for Jaedong in the time period of this PR, and one loss to Bisu. Flash on the other hand has a loss to Bisu, one to Best, one to Much and one to Jaedong, along with another loss to Jaedong in the MSL, and fewer PL wins against a somewhat weaker lineup (wins against ggaemo, Movie, Hydra and S2 compared to Flash, Baby, Fantasy, S2 and Saint). So I think it adds up perfectly well.
On May 09 2011 16:41 legaton wrote: This is a bad PR. Bisu as second when Flash rolfstomped him twice in a row? Bisu may be a good player on proleague, but he's terrible at individual leagues? When was the last time he played a BoX?
His last bo3 was against Shine in Bacchus 2010, November 2010, but his last bo5 was in Avalon MSL, August 4th 2009, when he lost to Iris.
Great PR. Flash or Bisu for 2nd is a hard one. Really happy to see Mind so high up there, he's been kicking ass lately. I think Soulkey deserves a new TLPD picture with his current haircut so he doesn't look as ridiculous as in the current photo, haha.
if looks at a performance of players u just look on how they do against each other. sure bisu won just 1 games vs flash and lost 2, but this 2 games were close and u have to see that bisu never had a great pvt and still he does great vs any other t. he is atm the best vs z player u can find a lot better than flash and he also destroyed jd a couple times, besides the cheese lurker play he lost too. if bisu would have played at msl vs jf first, he would went up and not flash, so flash had luck in this terms. flash current perfromance was pretty bad and shaky while bisu did pretty good and had clean wins. so if u look at how they do against each other flash would be the better, but since u look at how they do over all bisu simply performs better and has an insanse vs z, while flashs match ups were shaky and he has no real match up wich is out of the ordinary.
So nice to see Jaedong back on top (his ZvT is prob the best of all time atm).
I agree with most people saying Flash should be above Bisu. Your justification is reasonable, but I watched both games in the msl ro32 and in both games I never once felt like Flash had a chance of losing (even in the 2nd game, tho it was closer). He showed to just be plain better in those games imo.
I know I said this before, but here's more detail. Movie at #10 just confuses me. Nevermind FBH for a minute, let's compare him just to the other CJ Protoss:
Movie: 4-1, no MSL. Beat ZerO. Lost to Flash. Midas and check he should beat; beating ggaemo is a positive but Movie's known as a vZ player. I mean, it's a good month, but when he didn't even make the MST...
Snow: 5-3. Lost to by.hero in the MSL. If we get rid of that, he's 4-1 in Proleague just like Movie. He beat firebathero. He also beat RorO, who's improved recently even if his ZvP tends to be abysmal. Lost a PvP to Jaehoon, who is actually pretty good. Okay, so it's not "undefeated if he didn't play Flash", but just the fact of the MSL appearance looks better to me than Movie's record.
Horang2: 7-4. One loss to Ruby, but he beat Ruby to advance. Two losses to Grape are the biggest knock on him: he's supposed to be the PvP bonjwa. But that was a round further in the MSL than Snow got, and Movie didn't even make the MST. Non-MSL record is... oh, look. 4-1. Beat Iris, Shine, Pure who's PvP is pretty good - and Action if you think that counts for anything (I don't, really). His only loss was to HyuN, who's been red-hot, at least for him.
(Note: I didn't actually watch most of these games.)
So given that data-set...
Movie gets #10 and the other two don't even get CNBC? (To say nothing of fbh not making it...)
On May 10 2011 05:55 FakePlasticLove wrote: Why are you counting games that happened after the ranking came out?
Yeah, this...
#10 has always been somewhat of a special spot though. I see Movie at #10 as a shoutout to all of the CJ Protoss playing the best starcraft of their careers (well, probably 2nd best for Movie, but still). They're absolutely demolishing proleague--can you imagine what CJ is gonna look like when Leta unslumps?
It's nice to see Jaedong looking scary in-game again.... But it's also nice to see him looking pleased after the games as well. Like his little smirk after beating Baby in PL. That game was nothing short of amazing.... It's also nice to see Movie sneak back in there again too.
On May 10 2011 11:11 hauton wrote: Ew. I maintain that you shouldn't be above the guy who knocked you out of the MSL.
That is your opinion. My opinion is you shouldn't be above the guy who won over you in WL Final. And talking about that, why should JD place above Bisu when he lost pretty much 75% the game versus Bisu this season? My point is you can say Bisu>JD>Flash>Bisu all day long. So at the end who is the best? You can base on the MSL alone since that's when Flash beat Bisu, that's unreasonable. Bisu did beat Flash an JD in WL. So take WL-MSL+PL matches we have Bisu>Flash, period.
Hypothetically if Player A goes 2-0 over Player B in MSL but goes 0-8 in his other matches and Player B goes 8-0 in his other matches, would you still want Player A over Player B? Let's be careful with the absolutes here.
To be fair though, as was mentioned somewhere in last month's PR discussion (probably in this one as well, although I haven't been able to look at all the pages yet) Bisu had the luxury of being able to prepare for Jaedong / Flash on certain maps whereas JD and Flash had to carry much more of their team and came into the ace probably somewhat tired, having played several games in a row. SLs are definetly a more even playing field for seeing which player has the edge over the other, unless the maps are really atrocious
On May 10 2011 13:01 Navi wrote: To be fair though, as was mentioned somewhere in last month's PR discussion (probably in this one as well, although I haven't been able to look at all the pages yet) Bisu had the luxury of being able to prepare for Jaedong / Flash on certain maps whereas JD and Flash had to carry much more of their team and came into the ace probably somewhat tired, having played several games in a row. SLs are definetly a more even playing field for seeing which player has the edge over the other, unless the maps are really atrocious
That doesn't work for WL, Oz and KT had plenty of time to prepare while Bisu had to fight their way into the championship. And it's not like they won't focus on Bisu.
On May 10 2011 12:36 Mortality wrote: Hypothetically if Player A goes 2-0 over Player B in MSL but goes 0-8 in his other matches and Player B goes 8-0 in his other matches, would you still want Player A over Player B? Let's be careful with the absolutes here.
It's not quite that simple though because it depends on who they are playing against. I mean lets say we are talking about ZerO as Player A and Stats as player B (I only chose them so I could use players who are really good/bad in certain matchups).
Ok so what if those 8 games effort lost were extremely close games against say of Jaedong, Light, Flash, Fantasy, Hydra, Leta, BaBy and Sea. So Zero's losses would be all well played games against great players, but they were still losses.
While the games Stork won were against Rock, By.Sun, Juni, BarrackS, Light, Pure, sKyHigh and Calm (I never liked the joke Clam but lets assume he played like shit), and most of those matches were fairly close. So Stats would have meh wins against meh players but they are still wins
(This is all hypothetical or course, I would be astounded if a player got those kind of matchups and neither is likely for any player who is a candidate for the Power Rank anyhow)
Even then I would probably put Stats above Zero, because 8-2 looks a shitton better than 2-8 no matter who they are playing so I guess I do agree with you Mortality. But that is why you can't really look at a single metric to determine the difference between players unless they are essentially equal in all other aspects. It is never as simple as "Flash beat Bisu in a set, thus Bisu should be above Flash" or "Bisu has a better win/loss record thus he should be above Flash" which is what makes the #2 and #3 on this rank so difficult. So yeah I do agree with your statement about not using absolutes when it comes to a Power Ranking (unless a player does something crazy like wining dual golds or all-kills every team he plays that month-then saying they should be #1 as an absolute I would be more OK with).
The ranking of Bisu and Flash are pretty much discretionary as far as their performance goes. Flash lost badly to some players he shouldn't have lost to, but he isn't slumping. He just wasn't able to bring his A-game until he reached a point of desperation (series vs Really, ace match vs ACE). In Bisu's case, he lost to Flash and Zero. He's been winning left and right, some wins in dominating fashion and others somewhat close.
What could tilt the ranks in Flash's favor is the fact that he did advance in the MSL by beating Bisu himself. Hence, against each other, Flash has a definite advantage. However, against the rest of the pro-gamers, Bisu's been less likely to lose, and that tilts it in his favor. Really, you can choose either one of those arguments to justify any ranking. I'm just happy for Jaedong right now. He deserves it after last year's losses to Flash.
No offense but I find the writer of this power ranking extremely biased against fantasy, but so is the majority of TeamLiquid, so I guess I will not make a big deal out of it. Bisu being second just seems weird, pretty sure FlaSh is still the better player overall.
On May 10 2011 14:43 iTzAnglory wrote: No offense but I find the writer of this power ranking extremely biased against fantasy, but so is the majority of TeamLiquid, so I guess I will not make a big deal out of it. Bisu being second just seems weird, pretty sure FlaSh is still the better player overall.
This is beating a dead horse but it's nothing to do with being a better player overall. Stork and Fantasy are better than a large amount of those on the PR but they aren't on simply for the games they've played in the last month
While just about everyone agrees that Flash is better than Bisu, he however hasn't been Ultimate Weaponing everyone like he usually does in the last month
Regarding Bisu vs Flash, I think it is a good time to recall some PR from the past:
Power Rank as of 01/01/2011
Flash is 18-2 in Proleague with his only losses coming at the hands of Light and BeSt. Sadly, for the next month or so, Proleague will be Flash's only bragging point. Flash's eliminatation in both the OSL and MSL .... but Flash's eliminations are still pretty shocking, and they're powerful enough to demote him down to #5.
Something similar, yeah? You can check this PR thread and be surprised how SKT's fans logic has been changed =) But actually I don't care much about Bisu #2 place. Let Bisu's fans have some joy, while Flash moving forward to the next JvF finals =)
^that isn't at all similar. Bisu was knocked out of one league Flash was knocked out of two. Bisu was knocked out by Flash, Flash was knocked out by scrubs that no one remembers anymore.
The main point was "only good in PL" which is quite applicable. And actually 18-2 is faaar better than Bisu's current performance. Any scrub has a gosu day, and as for Flash - scrubs are even more dangerous then good players. It is hard to predict how they will play + high possibility for cheese. Flash was in top form, just a bit cocky, which cost him a lot.
Flash is 18-2 in Proleague with his only losses coming at the hands of Light and BeSt. Sadly, for the next month or so, Proleague will be Flash's only bragging point. Flash's eliminatation in both the OSL and MSL .... but Flash's eliminations are still pretty shocking, and they're powerful enough to demote him down to #5.
Something similar, yeah? You can check this PR thread and be surprised how SKT's fans logic has been changed =) But actually I don't care much about Bisu #2 place. Let Bisu's fans have some joy, while Flash moving forward to the next JvF finals =)
Didn't like that power rank precisely because of that reasoning (and it was a pretty controversial PR as well). Upsets happen, true, but they shouldn't be enough to remove the aura of an 18-2 record. Still, that's why PR is more an opinion piece than a news article.
On May 10 2011 13:01 Navi wrote: To be fair though, as was mentioned somewhere in last month's PR discussion (probably in this one as well, although I haven't been able to look at all the pages yet) Bisu had the luxury of being able to prepare for Jaedong / Flash on certain maps whereas JD and Flash had to carry much more of their team and came into the ace probably somewhat tired, having played several games in a row. SLs are definetly a more even playing field for seeing which player has the edge over the other, unless the maps are really atrocious
I was one of the ones who pointed out that Bisu had the luxury of choosing when to be sent out since he was playing in the role of the sniper, but realistically if he wants to prepare for all possibilities then he needs to train for at least 4 different maps (sets 4-7). If he and his coaches act smartly, he can narrow that down by analyzing most likely possibilities and choosing where he will face them based on the most likely results.
And wtf is with Stork getting 2-0'd by Hyun last night?
On May 10 2011 22:45 Yodo wrote: The main point was "only good in PL" which is quite applicable. And actually 18-2 is faaar better than Bisu's current performance. Any scrub has a gosu day, and as for Flash - scrubs are even more dangerous then good players. It is hard to predict how they will play + high possibility for cheese. Flash was in top form, just a bit cocky, which cost him a lot.
18-2 is awesome, but it was over 3 months that happened and many of those games were not against top players. The month in question, Flash went 7-5 dropping about 50 ELO points and the point is that not only did he drop out of BOTH leagues that month but he looked pretty bad in his games. I was actually a bit bothered that Flash was still ranked ahead of Calm that month since Calm advanced in BOTH leagues. And if Flash lost because he got cocky? How is that supposed to be better than losing because of lack of skill? If you lose because you lack professionalism then it's still your fault. (For the record, I don't buy that crap anyway. Because it's just crap. Flash had a bad month that cost him his KeSPA #1 rank and it's that simple.)
Bisu just went 8-3 facing JD, Flash (x3), Sea, Free, and Zero. Yes he's out of MSL but against the hardest group in history with his worst possible opponent playing him twice, which is why his ELO increased over the course of the month despite dropping. I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
No, for the same reasons I advocated Bisu's #8 placement on the previous ranking, Bisu deserved the nod over Flash on this one.
Flash is 18-2 in Proleague with his only losses coming at the hands of Light and BeSt. Sadly, for the next month or so, Proleague will be Flash's only bragging point. Flash's eliminatation in both the OSL and MSL .... but Flash's eliminations are still pretty shocking, and they're powerful enough to demote him down to #5.
Something similar, yeah? You can check this PR thread and be surprised how SKT's fans logic has been changed =) But actually I don't care much about Bisu #2 place. Let Bisu's fans have some joy, while Flash moving forward to the next JvF finals =)
When Flash lost both OSL and MSL, BOTH, to some nonames, he didn't win WL final, beating 2 out of 3 best players at that time. And Flash can TRY to move forward to his next final, Bisu WON his already ). Good luck, Flash. You will need it. Try not to lose 0-3 to JD like you're doing for a while now.
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
On May 10 2011 22:22 Yodo wrote: Regarding Bisu vs Flash, I think it is a good time to recall some PR from the past:
Power Rank as of 01/01/2011
Flash is 18-2 in Proleague with his only losses coming at the hands of Light and BeSt. Sadly, for the next month or so, Proleague will be Flash's only bragging point. Flash's eliminatation in both the OSL and MSL .... but Flash's eliminations are still pretty shocking, and they're powerful enough to demote him down to #5.
Something similar, yeah? You can check this PR thread and be surprised how SKT's fans logic has been changed =) But actually I don't care much about Bisu #2 place. Let Bisu's fans have some joy, while Flash moving forward to the next JvF finals =)
When Flash lost both OSL and MSL, BOTH, to some nonames, he didn't win WL final, beating 2 out of 3 best players at that time. And Flash can TRY to move forward to his next final, Bisu WON his already ). Good luck, Flash. You will need it. Try not to lose 0-3 to JD like you're doing for a while now.
C'mon, I know you are bitter your favorite player hasn't made in into BO5 stages of individual leagues for years, but there's no need to troll so hard.
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
On May 12 2011 06:56 ghrur wrote: God damnit, JD's ZvT has been tip top shape, but his ZvZ and ZvP have me scared as hell. T_T
I'm hoping he stops his muta play zvp. Last 2 times I have seen his zvp he does this muta and gets wrecked. I have a feeling he's going to stomp grape tonight though ^^
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote: Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match.
And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result).
Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's.
FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me?
On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote: Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match.
And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result).
Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's.
FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me?
I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years.
And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8.
does anybody actually know when the osl is going to start? Are they trying to desynchronize the msl and osl so that there is always one league going on? That would be good for the players
Bisu not winning series makes his fans root for him all the more, because all evidence in the past 2 years suggests he easily has the skill to win one, but he keeps failing all the time in varying ways. We're waiting for the moment the dam bursts and Bisu storms his way to another gold.
2011 looks to be as good a year as any for him to do just that. Maybe in the revamped OSL. Maybe in the next MSL. We all hope, because as much as Stork has been the most consistent Protoss of the past few years, it's hard to hope for him winning in the finals against the current crop of S-Class (Flash, Jaedong, Fantasy, maybe Hydra and soon to be Effort).
On May 13 2011 15:34 vishrut wrote: does anybody actually know when the osl is going to start? Are they trying to desynchronize the msl and osl so that there is always one league going on? That would be good for the players
Yeah, I am wondering about this as well.
I am also really glad to see Movie back on the power rank. As for Bisu, his lack of individual league success will just make his next big run all the better.
I can't believe that Bisu hasn't won a series for so long and the last was 4 months close to July's last title. Pretty damning stuff.
On May 13 2011 15:34 vishrut wrote: does anybody actually know when the osl is going to start? Are they trying to desynchronize the msl and osl so that there is always one league going on? That would be good for the players
The OSL has already started after it's rebranding as MyStarleague, there's qualifiers already taking place around Korea afaik. Why there's barely any information about it on here i don't know.
On May 14 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote: I can't believe that Bisu hasn't won a series for so long and the last was 4 months close to July's last title. Pretty damning stuff.
On May 13 2011 15:34 vishrut wrote: does anybody actually know when the osl is going to start? Are they trying to desynchronize the msl and osl so that there is always one league going on? That would be good for the players
The OSL has already started after it's rebranding as MyStarleague, there's qualifiers already taking place around Korea afaik. Why there's barely any information about it on here i don't know.
Well he did beat Mind and hyvaa in Bo3s during Ro36 for Korean Air OSL S2. And he beat Baby at WCG 2010 if we're gonna count that. Not the most impressive list of series opponents but its something? Lol.
On May 14 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote: I can't believe that Bisu hasn't won a series for so long and the last was 4 months close to July's last title. Pretty damning stuff.
On May 13 2011 15:34 vishrut wrote: does anybody actually know when the osl is going to start? Are they trying to desynchronize the msl and osl so that there is always one league going on? That would be good for the players
The OSL has already started after it's rebranding as MyStarleague, there's qualifiers already taking place around Korea afaik. Why there's barely any information about it on here i don't know.
Well he did beat Mind and hyvaa in Bo3s during Ro36 for Korean Air OSL S2. And he beat Baby at WCG 2010 if we're gonna count that. Not the most impressive list of series opponents but its something? Lol.
Maybe he was probably talking about Individual Leagues after the group ceremonies? The OSL ceremony is when 16 players are left.
On May 14 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote: I can't believe that Bisu hasn't won a series for so long and the last was 4 months close to July's last title. Pretty damning stuff.
On May 13 2011 15:34 vishrut wrote: does anybody actually know when the osl is going to start? Are they trying to desynchronize the msl and osl so that there is always one league going on? That would be good for the players
The OSL has already started after it's rebranding as MyStarleague, there's qualifiers already taking place around Korea afaik. Why there's barely any information about it on here i don't know.
Well he did beat Mind and hyvaa in Bo3s during Ro36 for Korean Air OSL S2. And he beat Baby at WCG 2010 if we're gonna count that. Not the most impressive list of series opponents but its something? Lol.
Maybe he was probably talking about Individual Leagues after the group ceremonies? The OSL ceremony is when 16 players are left.
If that is the case then yes I will concede that point. Haha.
On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote: Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
Yes.
On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:
On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:
On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:
On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match.
And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result).
Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's.
FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me?
I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years.
And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8.
You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it.
P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level.
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote: Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
Yes.
On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:
On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:
On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:
On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match.
And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result).
Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's.
FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me?
I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years.
And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8.
You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it.
P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level.
July's title was a fluke because he played rock, backho, and best. Anyone's title would've been a fluke with that lineup.
And while I know people want to make a big deal out of best and such but he's never proved since that he was really a good enough player to be true contender for titles, he just happened to be hot in one tournament and made it there (like Yarnc, Movie, Great, etc. pretty good players who happened upon a final that they probably aren't the correct calibre for).
Best was a little different. Of the four you mentioned, best had the 2nd highest elo peak, just short of calm by 4 points (and he is far ahead if you ignore vZ). There was a time when his vT looked just about invincible, and a different time when his vP looked just about invincible. The other three can't say they dominated a MU (or 2) as thoroughly.
On May 14 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote: I can't believe that Bisu hasn't won a series for so long and the last was 4 months close to July's last title. Pretty damning stuff.
On May 13 2011 15:34 vishrut wrote: does anybody actually know when the osl is going to start? Are they trying to desynchronize the msl and osl so that there is always one league going on? That would be good for the players
The OSL has already started after it's rebranding as MyStarleague, there's qualifiers already taking place around Korea afaik. Why there's barely any information about it on here i don't know.
He hasn't won a title since 4 months after July's, not series, minor point but it'd be RIDICULOUS (even moreso I guess) if he hadn't even won a series since then.
Who'd have thought that it would all start going downhill after his epic loss to Iris?
Edit: In other news, phenomenal play by Bisu against Jaedong. Simply beautiful to watch.
On May 14 2011 13:30 hacklebeast wrote: Best was a little different. Of the four you mentioned, best had the 2nd highest elo peak, just short of calm by 4 points (and he is far ahead if you ignore vZ). There was a time when his vT looked just about invincible, and a different time when his vP looked just about invincible. The other three can't say they dominated a MU (or 2) as thoroughly.
haha I didn't even mean to put Calm there. I meant to put Great.
His elo was doing well because he, like July, had gotten an unlikely series of his favored matchup. Since then he clearly has not even close to lived up to what he was getting hyped as.
You have to take into account that Bisu was slumping like a madman before last season. He is capable of winning in box he's just been a bit unlucky since he came out of his slump.
I think he probably plays the best starcraft of all pro's for the moment. Basically it is only one bad day (the day he lost against Flash two times) that separates him from being undoubtedly the best player for the moment - even though that is a lot!
I would love to see Bisu BoX play vs Zergs in a big stage. I usually cheer for his zerg oponent but it is so frustrating to see them being crushed. They need to come up with something new. Too bad I am a kind of Bisu hater inside, it is not good for my health I guess. Edit: PS I am simply unable to appreciate Bisu's vZ play when his opponents look so helpless.
On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote: Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
Yes.
On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:
On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:
On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:
On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match.
And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result).
Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's.
FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me?
I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years.
And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8.
You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it.
P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level.
July's title was a fluke because he played rock, backho, and best. Anyone's title would've been a fluke with that lineup.
And while I know people want to make a big deal out of best and such but he's never proved since that he was really a good enough player to be true contender for titles, he just happened to be hot in one tournament and made it there (like Yarnc, Movie, Great, etc. pretty good players who happened upon a final that they probably aren't the correct calibre for).
It seems like we're thinking of what it means for a result to be a fluke in a different way. From my view, it was Protoss season and I'm not convinced that any Protoss would have been able to take July to the mat at that time, not even Bisu.
Best... I hate to say it because I was totally raving about Best's awesomeness back then, but you're sort of right. Best's PvZ has always been terrible and I actually think his PvT and PvP were overrated. His game play is way, way too one-dimensional, which is ironic because everyone in interviews always says that Best is the innovator and Bisu is the copycat.
On May 14 2011 20:19 Elroi wrote: You have to take into account that Bisu was slumping like a madman before last season. He is capable of winning in box he's just been a bit unlucky since he came out of his slump.
I think he probably plays the best starcraft of all pro's for the moment. Basically it is only one bad day (the day he lost against Flash two times) that separates him from being undoubtedly the best player for the moment - even though that is a lot!
I wouldn't go that far on Bisu, and I certainly don't feel like he lost to Flash because he had a bad day. If anything, that was some of the best arbiter usage Bisu has ever done. It just so happened that it wasn't enough.
But I'll say this... in his last 8 encounters with Jaedong, Bisu has won 7 of them. Say all you want about how those were only Bo1 encounters -- that's an incredibly lop-sided record over a fairly significant number of games.
His win over Jaedong yesterday was just disturbingly convincing to be honest. It looked completely automatic, like if protoss had a big meta game lead over zerg. I felt like zerg must come up with something new to beat that, and yet it is only Bisu who is able to play like that.
Hmm yeah, I still don't think he would beat Flash. But if he weren't in that group, he would very probably be 1# on the PR now though, that's what i meant.
On May 15 2011 00:44 Elroi wrote: His win over Jaedong yesterday was just disturbingly convincing to be honest. It looked completely automatic, like if protoss had a big meta game lead over zerg. I felt like zerg must come up with something new to beat that, and yet it is only Bisu who is able to play like that.
Hmm yeah, I still don't think he would beat Flash. But if he weren't in that group, he would very probably be 1# on the PR now though, that's what i meant.
I think the same, moreover I wonder how far he came in the MSL, probably until he meets Flash in the final ^^ but whatever it is just pure speculation, but a nice imagination ..
On May 15 2011 00:44 Elroi wrote: His win over Jaedong yesterday was just disturbingly convincing to be honest. It looked completely automatic, like if protoss had a big meta game lead over zerg. I felt like zerg must come up with something new to beat that, and yet it is only Bisu who is able to play like that.
Hmm yeah, I still don't think he would beat Flash. But if he weren't in that group, he would very probably be 1# on the PR now though, that's what i meant.
I hear ya. In fact I'll take it a step further and say that if he had been matched against Jaedong (or better, Sea) or if Flash had beaten JD in the winner's match then I think Bisu would have escaped the group. And I totally agree that he would have escaped any other group.
From my Flash fanboy perspective this says a lot about what Flash is capable of; Bisu is the favourite against pretty much anyone, goes up against Flash in Flash's statistically weakest match-up recently (5-5 in his last 10, that's really low by his standards) and gets crushed 2-0 in straight up games (and in one he actually got a huge advantage).
In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
I think at this point you'd unquestionably take Bisu if you knew you had to beat a Zerg, which is pretty incredible. To be able to say that about a Protoss in the vZ matchup instead of any Terran....
If you told me I had to pick someone to win vP or vT I'd still take Flash though. Jaedong is debatable for ZvT but as Reality showed, ZvT is just too hard of a matchup to bet all your minerals (Horang2 style) on a Zerg.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players.
Alright to put it onto context lets see..
Bisu in his last 30games won against only 3 first rate players being Jaedong and Sea and maybe Calm
Loses to first rate players: Flash, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, Stats, Leta, Stork, Kal
Woot you say? Indeed, Bisu is the most over rated player since sliced bread.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players.
Alright to put it onto context lets see..
Bisu in his last 30games won against only 3 first rate players being Jaedong and Sea and maybe Calm
Loses to first rate players: Flash, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, Stats, Leta, Stork, Kal
Woot you say? Indeed, Bisu is the most over rated player since sliced bread.
Lol your obviously lying and trying to conceal the facts and I'm not in a mood to have such a stupid fanboy fight. But just one thing, if you are looking at your glory last 30 games stat a little bit more carefully, then you will find out that the winning list against 1st rate players is a little bit longer, moreover it is anyway crap to count Flash as a 1st rate player in his loss-list but not in his win-list and once again compare the other s-class gamers. The win and loss list are all about the same level. But you don't and you won't get it if you don't pull off the Bisu - hate - glasses.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players.
Alright to put it onto context lets see..
Bisu in his last 30games won against only 3 first rate players being Jaedong and Sea and maybe Calm
Loses to first rate players: Flash, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, Stats, Leta, Stork, Kal
Woot you say? Indeed, Bisu is the most over rated player since sliced bread.
Lol your obviously lying and trying to conceal the facts and I'm not in a mood to have such a stupid fanboy fight. But just one thing, if you are looking at your glory last 30 games stat a little bit more carefully, then you will find out that the winning list against 1st rate players is a little bit longer, moreover it is anyway crap to count Flash as a 1st rate player in his loss-list but not in his win-list and once again compare the other s-class gamers. The win and loss list are all about the same level. But you don't and you won't get it if you don't pull off the Bisu - hate - glasses.
Perhaps you shouldn't post at all if you're not in the mood for a fanboy fight.
Please indicate how exactly I am lying before making such accusations.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players.
Alright to put it onto context lets see..
Bisu in his last 30games won against only 3 first rate players being Jaedong and Sea and maybe Calm
Loses to first rate players: Flash, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, Stats, Leta, Stork, Kal
Woot you say? Indeed, Bisu is the most over rated player since sliced bread.
Oh, how you twist statistics. I thought l0st_romantic was still banned, but I guess someone needs to continue his legacy of twisting statistics to prove a false point. In any case, I suggest you take a closer look at Bisu's record instead of making things up.
On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote: Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
Yes.
On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:
On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:
On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:
On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match.
And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result).
Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's.
FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me?
I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years.
And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8.
You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it.
P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level.
July's title was a fluke because he played rock, backho, and best. Anyone's title would've been a fluke with that lineup.
And while I know people want to make a big deal out of best and such but he's never proved since that he was really a good enough player to be true contender for titles, he just happened to be hot in one tournament and made it there (like Yarnc, Movie, Great, etc. pretty good players who happened upon a final that they probably aren't the correct calibre for).
I don't really agree with the complete dismissal of July's golden mouse winning OSL run. I'm absolutely certain that after he took the finals that he was not the number one player in the world. You are correct he had an easy run and certainly had a run playing only toss (his strength). But his complete dismantling of Best and the anti-sair/reaver build should count for something. I'm not sure how someone could watch that final and not be impressed by July, it was the epitome of a modern mindgame BOx series.
I suppose technically a fluke since he wouldn't have made it that far with any decent terran in his way (as exemplified by what happened when he pulled Flash into his group in the next SL) but July's ZvP was truly excellent.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players.
Alright to put it onto context lets see..
Bisu in his last 30games won against only 3 first rate players being Jaedong and Sea and maybe Calm
Loses to first rate players: Flash, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, Stats, Leta, Stork, Kal
Woot you say? Indeed, Bisu is the most over rated player since sliced bread.
Where is Flash in the list of good players Bisu defeated? Ah I see, he is not good anymore. He didn't win any title for months and who knows for how long? And who did Flash lose to? I think a variety of players, and levels.
On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote: Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
Yes.
On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:
On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:
On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:
On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote:
On May 11 2011 01:06 Mortality wrote: I ask myself, had it been any other group -- or even any other permutation of the same group -- would Bisu have dropped out of MSL? And the answer I come back with is no.
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match.
And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result).
Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's.
FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me?
I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years.
And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8.
You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it.
P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level.
July's title was a fluke because he played rock, backho, and best. Anyone's title would've been a fluke with that lineup.
And while I know people want to make a big deal out of best and such but he's never proved since that he was really a good enough player to be true contender for titles, he just happened to be hot in one tournament and made it there (like Yarnc, Movie, Great, etc. pretty good players who happened upon a final that they probably aren't the correct calibre for).
I don't really agree with the complete dismissal of July's golden mouse winning OSL run. I'm absolutely certain that after he took the finals that he was not the number one player in the world. You are correct he had an easy run and certainly had a run playing only toss (his strength). But his complete dismantling of Best and the anti-sair/reaver build should count for something. I'm not sure how someone could watch that final and not be impressed by July, it was the epitome of a modern mindgame BOx series.
I suppose technically a fluke since he wouldn't have made it that far with any decent terran in his way (as exemplified by what happened when he pulled Flash into his group in the next SL) but July's ZvP was truly excellent.
You guys are also forgetting that he came out alive of a ZvZ group after Luxury (2nd best ZvZer) picked him as a safety.
On May 13 2011 11:33 red4ce wrote: Random question for anyone who has been around more than 5 years. Was the November 2006 PR the first bw pr done on TL? I can't find any that go further back than that one.
Yes.
On May 13 2011 10:15 darktreb wrote:
On May 11 2011 22:26 aupstar wrote:
On May 11 2011 17:07 chisuri wrote:
On May 11 2011 03:19 Mindcrime wrote: [quote]
Why? Failing out of individual leagues against opponents over whom he is the favorite has been Bisu's modus operandi for a while now.
What's unusual about this season is that Bisu was knocked out by a good player.
You forgot last MSL, Bisu was knocked out by Stork. And in OSL he was knocked out by Shine, who was in a hot streak at that time. Hard to believe if you look at his results now, I know. But it's true.
Lets look at individual titles in the previous seasons and see who Bisu was kicked out by:
Korean air S2 OSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by effort and leta
WCG2010 Knocked out by Kal 2:0
Bigfile MSL 2010 Knocked out Sea 2:0
Hana Daetoo MSL 2010 (Ro32) Knocked out by shuttle and movie
Korean Air S1 OSL 2010 Knocked out by go.go 2:1
Nate MSL 2009 Knocked out by Bogus and Guemchi
Ever OSL 2009 Knocked out by Shine 2:1
Which brings us finally to his last series win
WCG2009 Finals Not Knocked out by Stork 2:0 (This was also the last Bo3 that he won)
Avalon MSL2009 Knocked out by Iris 3:2
And his last Bo5 win
GomTV Classic Season 2 2009 (09-02-08 to be exact) Not Knocked out by Jangbi 3:1
In conclusion, Mindcrime's hilarious statement holds true.
gg
Seriously, how do Bisu fans even talk? He hasn't won a BO3 or BO5 since 2009. 2009! It's been nearly TWO years since he's won even a single series!!!!!! No OSL ro4's. No MSL ro8's. TWO years, the streak continues until OSL starts, and let's be honest, who really thinks he's going to win a series there?
I fully agree that Bisu has something to prove. He's been "PL only" for way too long. But the reality is that Bisu was not an S-class player for most of 2010 and these arguments don't really say anything about Bisu's skill right now, when he most certainly is S-class, #1 Protoss player by ELO in every single match.
And it's certainly true that Bisu is still failing to advance now, but this past Ro32... fuck, EVERYONE knew that one of the three best players in the world was going to be sent home. As far as I know that situation has only happened once before in history (IOPS: NaDa, Oov, July in the same group -- NaDa and July faced off in the finals as a result).
Old results do provide a standard that can be used to put new results in context, but don't get carried away in thinking "Bisu can't possibly win a series because he has no ability at series play" when he's won THREE fucking SL's.
FFS why the fuck do I have to argue in favor of Bisu when 95+% of Bisu fans annoy the crap out of me?
I'm not saying he can't possibly win a series. But to go two years without winning one is truly amazing. The list of players who've won a series in the past two years is incredibly long. And yes, he's obviously the best Protoss player right now, and got a little unlucky with the group of death. But at a certain point when you have been unable to scrap together a win for two years, that's just simply indefensible, and until he manages to change there's not much to say. None of this "PL comes first" BS ... two years.
And of course everyone remembers he's won three titles - he's the greatest Protoss player of all time (and I say this as a huge anti-Bisu person), and I don't think there's even a close second place. But at a certain point, the statute of limitations on his titles has to be coming up, doesn't it? He hasn't won a title since 2008, nearly three years. His last title was only four months after July's last (and admittedly flukiest of all time) title. It was a different era ... Bisu needs to step up and go deep in a league for the sake of BW as a spectator sport. As someone who loves to hate Bisu, it actually frustrates me that he can't go deep in a league. It's no fun rooting against someone who can't even make ro8.
You've read my posts. You know I don't buy into that crap about PL uber alas. It's just crap. But I'm not going to ignore what he's doing in it either. The reality is that Bisu's play in April was fantastic -- unquestionably better than it's been during that entire 2 year time. And quite frankly it caught me by surprise too, because I wasn't expecting it.
P.S. July's title wasn't so much a fluke as metagame circumstances conspiring in his favor. It was Protoss season and July happened to be the best ZvP player in the world at that time. And I might be tempted to argue Nal_Ra and maybe even Giyom (not many people remember because a number of Giyom's wins predate the existence of KeSPA, but Giyom won 75000 in prize money in a 6 month period, basically the same amount as winning 4-5 SL's in 6 months) on Bisu's level.
July's title was a fluke because he played rock, backho, and best. Anyone's title would've been a fluke with that lineup.
And while I know people want to make a big deal out of best and such but he's never proved since that he was really a good enough player to be true contender for titles, he just happened to be hot in one tournament and made it there (like Yarnc, Movie, Great, etc. pretty good players who happened upon a final that they probably aren't the correct calibre for).
I don't really agree with the complete dismissal of July's golden mouse winning OSL run. I'm absolutely certain that after he took the finals that he was not the number one player in the world. You are correct he had an easy run and certainly had a run playing only toss (his strength). But his complete dismantling of Best and the anti-sair/reaver build should count for something. I'm not sure how someone could watch that final and not be impressed by July, it was the epitome of a modern mindgame BOx series.
I suppose technically a fluke since he wouldn't have made it that far with any decent terran in his way (as exemplified by what happened when he pulled Flash into his group in the next SL) but July's ZvP was truly excellent.
You guys are also forgetting that he came out alive of a ZvZ group after Luxury (2nd best ZvZer) picked him as a safety.
It's true that he came out of a ZvZ group which lends some weight to his win considering ZvZ was his worst match-up at the time. Also he had to beat Mind (who was a very strong player at the time) to even make it that far. But it was also only just a few Bo1 wins. 12 months prior to facing Luxury in Ever 08: 8-10 ZvZ, 11-15 ZvT 12 months after: 5-13 ZvZ, 7-6 ZvT
However, in fairness to July's ZvT, metagame badly favored Terran at the time. In Shinhan 2008 PL, the stats were 35-21 (63%) T > Z, with even JD at only 2-5.
I don't think July's win was a fluke at all, but he certainly was not a well-rounded player when he won and it was certainly not expected that he would make it very far as he was not really considered a top player at the time. And as to whether or not his opponents were enough for him to "prove himself worthy" or some shit like that... I mean, okay, he didn't face the hardest bracket, but as I said, this was the height of Protoss season. What we saw was that all the good Terrans except Flash were being eliminated by Protoss (Flash was eliminated by Luxury 2-0) and since 4 out of 5 of the Zergs were in the same group, only Luxury survived to the Ro8, just to get eliminated by Best, who was not exactly one of the all-time best PvZers.
I think the true significance of July's victory isn't his golden mouse, but that if you look at this time, P was actually ahead of Z in metagame, but July impacted this and by helping turn the balance back in favor of Zerg he helped give rise to swarm season in 2009. I think most people forget that... they attribute this shift in metagame entirely to Jaedong, who was also very strong in ZvP at this time.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
What a statement. If you play so many games in PL, like 60 and you win most of them, then of course most of the wins were against "2nd rate players". It is not even possible to play 60 games just against TLBS and some other Highclass gamers. But every "high winning rate gamer" has to deal with this, even Flash. Look against whom he lost and won. Most of his losses are coming from "1st rate players" either, but that is just logical, it would be somehow strange if you are only losing against the lower rated players.
Alright to put it onto context lets see..
Bisu in his last 30games won against only 3 first rate players being Jaedong and Sea and maybe Calm
Loses to first rate players: Flash, Zero, Jaedong, Sea, Stats, Leta, Stork, Kal
Woot you say? Indeed, Bisu is the most over rated player since sliced bread.
Lol your obviously lying and trying to conceal the facts and I'm not in a mood to have such a stupid fanboy fight. But just one thing, if you are looking at your glory last 30 games stat a little bit more carefully, then you will find out that the winning list against 1st rate players is a little bit longer, moreover it is anyway crap to count Flash as a 1st rate player in his loss-list but not in his win-list and once again compare the other s-class gamers. The win and loss list are all about the same level. But you don't and you won't get it if you don't pull off the Bisu - hate - glasses.
Perhaps you shouldn't post at all if you're not in the mood for a fanboy fight.
Please indicate how exactly I am lying before making such accusations.
So the person Bisu beat in the Winners League Final wasn't Flash but his doppelganger?
And the way he dismantled Jaedong recently is typical for someone so overrated?
I also respect July victory, because he actually was good at something when he won. His zvp was S-class, and with addition of luck he won. Compared to Calm, Luxury or Hydra who won mostly by luck.
On May 15 2011 05:46 Mortality wrote: In a Bo(2n+5) where n is any non-negative integer I would still go either Flash or JD. You just can't count those guys out. But TBH, if tomorrow a Bo1 would be played for my life and the opponent would be a randomly selected progamer I'd be tempted to go Bisu. This is the first time in about 2 years I can say that Bisu would even cross my mind as a choice. I'm still a little worried about his PvP and I haven't forgotten how atrocious Bisu was playing in March, but since April 1 he's been playing such consistently solid Starcraft. By contrast, Flash and JD are starting to drop some games here and there, not so many that I doubt their skill, but enough that I'm not going to think "oh noes, Bisu isn't in SL so he clearly is a lot weaker." Although I must say that I'll be sorely disappointed if Bisu fails to go anywhere in this coming OSL.
Don't you mean 2n+1?
If tomorrow a Bo1 would be played and Bisu didn't know the map, then it would be gg for Bisu.
he said that in his game against flash. not against some 2nd tier scrub. He would still beat any non S class or high A class. He would probably also beat the high class zergs assuming they also did not know the maps. I dont know how he would do against terran and protoss. Most of his wins in those matchups come mostly from his superior mechanics which will still be with him.
Can't really say that with much conviction given that Bisu doesn't play good players often.
As you say they are scrubs he consistantly beats...that's not really enogh to be a great player.
Perhaps one day he will be able to get far in an osl or msl where half decent players advance to prove me wrong.
But for now, as you can see from his stats (yes I checked) most of his wins ARE vs 2nd rate players.
Most of his losses ARE against 1st rate players (i.e., Zero, Stats, Leta, Free)..So really you guys are kidding yourself if you'd bet it all on such a player if your life depended on it..zerg or not zerg.
Okay, and now lets compare how many A-teamers Bisu has lost to in the last 30 games and how many Flash has. You really don't understand the PR do you? It's not about who the most skilled player is, it's about who's playing the best SC:BW atm. If it was purely based on who we thought were the best then it would TBLS+Fanta and Hydra every month, and then the last 4 spots might shift between guys like Sea/Zero/etc
On May 16 2011 08:11 arbiter_md wrote: I also respect July victory, because he actually was good at something when he won. His zvp was S-class, and with addition of luck he won. Compared to Calm, Luxury or Hydra who won mostly by luck.
Now wait just a second. That's definitely not fair towards Calm, Luxury or Hydra.
Calm went 68-32 (68%) in 2009 and was 22-8 (73%) from the time of his first game in Avalon to his last, toppling Sea, ForGG, Effort and Jaedong on his road, not to mention the strong PL results he was producing back then. And statistically Calm's strongest match is ZvP, which he wasn't playing very often. Furthermore, Calm has put his own stamp on modern Zerg play with his smart, aggressive builds bringing ultra-fast lair timings back into ZvT metagame and clever plays such as his tendency to hide lings in ZvZ. And let's not forget how many deep SL runs Calm has had, 6 times making it to Bo5 stages. Calm was definitely pushing the boarder of S-class if not S-class itself back then.
Hydra is a new face, but he could definitely leave his stamp. Last season (counting all game from October 2010 until his finals) he went 43-17 (72%). Similarly to Calm he played 3 ZvZ Bo5's in a row, knocking off JD along the way, and similarly to Calm, ZvZ is not his best match (ZvP is...). If there's one criticism against Hydra it's that his ZvT is relatively unproven, but even then he's over 50% lifetime against a solid line-up. Hydra hasn't really put a stamp on the game yet, but FFS he's still new to this level.
Luxury was the obvious #2 Zerg for the better part of 2008 and into early 2009 and as I already pointed out was the guy who removed Flash from Ever 08 (and if Flash had managed to get through Best, we both know there's no way July would have won), S-class ZvZ clearly better than anyone not named Jaedong, briefly rivaled JD as top dog at ZvP (around the time of his MSL win) and one of the more solid ZvT players during one of the worst periods for ZvT. And the MSL run in question? Exactly how is it luck when you have to go through 2 of the best TvZers in the biz (Hwasin, one of the all-time greatest TvZers, and Leta during the season everyone thought Leta would win a SL) and then face Protoss wunderkind Jangbi (62% PvZ over 12 months, 67% overall, counting his loss to Lux) in the finals? If anything Luxury had a really hard bracket. The only "easy" match was Zero.
I do not think there is a single example in SC history of a player who won a SL but did not deserve it. Some roads may be harder than others, but you don't just luck your way into SL gold.
He beat Rock, Backho, and Best. That is the clearest definition of not deserving a title, and it was proven more clear when he went on to be a complete washout in proleague and future individual leagues. He rode his one pretty good matchup (S-Class? Really? Loose term) against not even mediocre protoss players and Best, who himself is not and was not even mediocre in PvZ (yes, he beat Luxury, no, it was not good). You cannot overvalue group stages, especially ZvZ group stages -- back in 2008 the only player who was immune to the flukiness of ZvZ was Jaedong, July's group was not even an impressive one to come out of. Let me put it to you this way, he beat Luxury -- not bad, right? Not that impressive but not bad -- and Rumble. 95% of you reading this don't even remember who Rumble was.
And honestly, I cannot see how you'd give July any credit for the coming of swarm season, even more specifically for his win over Best which, while very clever, hardly impacted the metagame. (what July did in his OSL has only scantly been recreated since then, and I think that's in no part to July doing rather than other zergs happening to be able to devise clever rushes). If you want to thank anyone for bringing a change to clever rushes against protoss in ZvP then that has to go solely to Luxury during his MSL winning stint. PS: No one needs to do an "Anti-sair" build against Best, making scourge at all is an anti-sair build against Best. Best was so bad at PvZ that sairs dying to scourge is named after him.
July was an amazing player, and had 2 completely amazing OSL runs and will forever be a legend. His third title was garbage to the truest degree and if any other player who wasn't a legend had won it they wouldn't get any credit. The only reason July's third title MIGHT not be considered a fluke is because July won it and people like July.
On May 16 2011 12:16 bearbuddy wrote: How about casy's? I thought the stars were aligned pretty well for him.
Yes, they were, but even before the stars aligned themselves for Casy I had my eye on him as a potential SL winner. He had such absurdly good control, an ODT second place (losing 2-3 to powerhouse Midas) to his credit and a semifinals appearance before his OSL gold and he achieved another semifinals later on. His TvZ was something to behold and when he won OSL his TvT was also really, really solid, and although his TvP was admittedly quite crappy, it's worth noting that he eliminated some strong toss players at the right times to get where he got (e.g. Kingdom in ODT, Anytime in Shinhan 2005).
Actually, a huge part of the stars aligning for Casy wasn't so much that he was playing a lot of Zergs but that he was playing on maps that forced a more strategic micro intensive style of play at which Casy totally excelled. For example, 815 was a big map around this time. Total stats for Casy: 3-0 on 815, 4-0 on Sin 815, 8-3 on 815 III.
LOL side not here but I totally remember the big argument I had going into that finals with tfeign. For some reason that git thought that Chojja's ZvT was stronger than Savior's. I remember making my predictions about the Casy-Chojja final and RH3 was the map to be played twice and I called that Chojja would win there and Casy would sweep the rest for 3-1 (which actually happened), but that Chojja could achieve the victory if he won on Peaks where his "King of 1 Base Zerg" reputation might come into play, but I still thought Casy had good odds even if he lost on Peaks.
On May 16 2011 12:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: He beat Rock, Backho, and Best. That is the clearest definition of not deserving a title, and it was proven more clear when he went on to be a complete washout in proleague and future individual leagues. He rode his one pretty good matchup (S-Class? Really? Loose term) against not even mediocre protoss players and Best, who himself is not and was not even mediocre in PvZ (yes, he beat Luxury, no, it was not good). You cannot overvalue group stages, especially ZvZ group stages -- back in 2008 the only player who was immune to the flukiness of ZvZ was Jaedong, July's group was not even an impressive one to come out of. Let me put it to you this way, he beat Luxury -- not bad, right? Not that impressive but not bad -- and Rumble. 95% of you reading this don't even remember who Rumble was.
And honestly, I cannot see how you'd give July any credit for the coming of swarm season, even more specifically for his win over Best which, while very clever, hardly impacted the metagame. (what July did in his OSL has only scantly been recreated since then, and I think that's in no part to July doing rather than other zergs happening to be able to devise clever rushes). If you want to thank anyone for bringing a change to clever rushes against protoss in ZvP then that has to go solely to Luxury during his MSL winning stint. PS: No one needs to do an "Anti-sair" build against Best, making scourge at all is an anti-sair build against Best. Best was so bad at PvZ that sairs dying to scourge is named after him.
July was an amazing player, and had 2 completely amazing OSL runs and will forever be a legend. His third title was garbage to the truest degree and if any other player who wasn't a legend had won it they wouldn't get any credit. The only reason July's third title MIGHT not be considered a fluke is because July won it and people like July.
I'm not gonna lie, you could totally interpret July's win in a light like that, although I don't think it does him justice. Of all the SL victories in all of SC, Ever 08 was the least inspiring and I totally agree that if it had been another Zerg in July's position with comparable recent results and no long term history there would have been boos coming from all corners.
But I personally think the talk wouldn't so much be "only one matchup is even remotely skilled" but more like "one match wonder" (but even that criticism wouldn't be entirely fair). July was extremely dominant at ZvP at that time and I don't think you're giving him due credit.
Also, maybe I was unclear or misspoke, but I don't mean to say that July's particular series against Best was metagame shifting, but rather July's play in general during that time period. Best has put a few high profile wins up against Zerg but he has never, NEVER been a top PvZer.
Edit: Just to state a clear example of July's influence on metagame that can be refuted if I'm wrong, 3 base hydra/muta was not persay July's baby, but he put his stamp on it with 9 pool -> 3 base spire -> 5 hatch hydra. Jaedong's strategy was different. Just to verify I rewatched JD vs Bisu from Arena MSL (which I remember as a moment in JD's new ZvP; although I vaguely recall his series against Kal as good the VODs are gone and the series against Stork was before 3 base muta/hydra... JD was actually very gimmicky in ZvP back then) and the build order he was using was different (12 hatch -> 4 hatch hydra before spire).
But to be clear, I'm not saying this is July's only metagame stamp either.
I'm gonna put it this way, even if you were a one matchup wonder, and it was protoss, if I said you could beat Best, Rock, and Backho in ZvP, would you say "That's starleague champion calibre" ? No? Then that's my definition of a fluke. Casy was a one matchup wonder, but atleast he played good opponents and even good opponents in that particular matchup. I'm glad July got a golden mouse, but it is by far the worst title run in starcraft history and it's not even close.
On May 16 2011 15:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm gonna put it this way, even if you were a one matchup wonder, and it was protoss, if I said you could beat Best, Rock, and Backho in ZvP, would you say "That's starleague champion calibre" ? No? Then that's my definition of a fluke. Casy was a one matchup wonder, but atleast he played good opponents and even good opponents in that particular matchup. I'm glad July got a golden mouse, but it is by far the worst title run in starcraft history and it's not even close.
July might not have played good opponents in that particular SL run, but I know for a fact that it's not fair to say that winning over sucky opponents means you can only win over sucky opponents. You make it sound like that's the highest caliber of player he could beat in a series which isn't true at all.
That's unprovable. Any player can potentially beat any other player, what matters is what you accomplish and how you live up to your accomplishments in the future, and neither of those are impressive in this case for July. I'm pretty sure you have the same criteria for the greatness of a player considering your hard (and justified) endorsement of Nada. That was the very last spike in July's career that had significantly waned at that point and from then on he did practically nothing to prove that his third title was anything but a fluke.
After July won a freaking OSL title, would you honestly say you thought of him as a threat to any other top player? Even in PvZ, would you have really called him a favorite only not over Bisu, but Kal and Free at the time? I'd wager not. It was a very obvious, and very overrewarded blip.
In ZvZ or ZvT, no I would not regard July as a threat. In ZvP I damn sure would. None of the 6 dragons have a winning record over July. You're right that this argument is difficult since July's only other deep tournament run was the last season of GOM (where July ended 4th place in a 128 man tourney -- the same one Flash won), consequently we only have 3 series of July vs Dragon (the 3-0 over Best, a 2-1 over Kal in GOM, and a 1-2 to Stork in WCG). In all of 2008 (statistically a good year for July at 79% wins ZvP) the only dragon July faced was Bisu and they went 2-2.
Yes I'd like to see more games against top players during that time period. At the end of the day, results against S-class opponents are really what I want to know. That's always been true and I'm not going to back track on that truism: it's easy to look good against inferior opponents. But the reality is that July does have a history accumulated over 6 years of consistently high level ZvP. There's not a single S-class Protoss in his entire career to have a winning record over him. If that's not S-class then what is?
On May 16 2011 16:32 Mortality wrote: In ZvZ or ZvT, no I would not regard July as a threat. In ZvP I damn sure would. None of the 6 dragons have a winning record over July. You're right that this argument is difficult since July's only other deep tournament run was the last season of GOM (where July ended 4th place in a 128 man tourney -- the same one Flash won), consequently we only have 3 series of July vs Dragon (the 3-0 over Best, a 2-1 over Kal in GOM, and a 1-2 to Stork in WCG). In all of 2008 (statistically a good year for July at 79% wins ZvP) the only dragon July faced was Bisu and they went 2-2.
Yes I'd like to see more games against top players during that time period. At the end of the day, results against S-class opponents are really what I want to know. That's always been true and I'm not going to back track on that truism: it's easy to look good against inferior opponents. But the reality is that July does have a history accumulated over 6 years of consistently high level ZvP. There's not a single S-class Protoss in his entire career to have a winning record over him. If that's not S-class then what is?
6 years ago doesn't matter. The only thing that mattered in relation to his 2008 title was his play directly leading up to the title and how he lived up to it afterwards, and he honestly didn't. It's pretty hard to prove how great his ZvP was when he dropped out of every individual league since and didn't play proleague.
Though, I do want to address maybe your best point: he had a 79% winrate in 2008 in ZvP. That stat, by itself, clearly speaks s-class but his competition was not good, nor plentiful. He played a combination of Rock/Backho/Best/Tempest/Foru/Herb/Anytime (All very bad, or formerly good but ailing at the time players) for 14 of his 19 wins. He had 2 respectable wins against Bisu, and a win against Han/Tyson who had deceptively good PvZ back then. He went 1-1 with Much who's respectable if not that great, and dropped a 1 off game to Doctor K that I won't count against him.
But even that doesn't speak of everything. He dropped out of his next OSL to Bisu and Much in a group he made specifically to A: let him get through on the benefit of his ZvP and B: Potentially beat Flash who was his biggest threat in the tournament. He lost to all three to get knocked out. Also, on the matter of his PvZ, he got knocked out of the MSL of the same season to Tempest 0-2 in MST.
July had respectable, sometimes brilliant ZvP. I compare it to, say, Sea's ZvT. Really good, sometimes able to upset even the best player in said matchup, but not good enough or consistently dominant enough to garner "S-class." July was not s-class in ZvP, the only player who would've had S-class PvZ in 2008 to me was Jaedong who not only put up great overall stats, but had to play a whole lot of good protosses along the way (Like Kal and Free, who July never even played in 08.) Hell, he was even capable of knocking Bisu out of a tournament, unlike July.
I'm very disapproving of how often "s-class" gets thrown around, people act like there's 3 or more s-class players in every matchup (Like Snow's PvT or Movie's PvZ or Luxury's ZvZ or like EVERY dragon's PvP at one point, or July's ZvP or Hydra's ZvZ or god knows how many TvZ players). We might have different distinctions on what makes an S-Class matchup but the way I see it, you're not s-class in something unless you're the absolute best or at the very least tied for the best in the matchup to me and July most definitely wasn't a better PvZer than Jaedong in 08, which wasn't even a great ZvP year for Jaedong.
July had really good ZvP, probably second best in 08, and significantly worse in 09 and beyond. It was still a fluke title.
On May 16 2011 16:32 Mortality wrote: In ZvZ or ZvT, no I would not regard July as a threat. In ZvP I damn sure would. None of the 6 dragons have a winning record over July. You're right that this argument is difficult since July's only other deep tournament run was the last season of GOM (where July ended 4th place in a 128 man tourney -- the same one Flash won), consequently we only have 3 series of July vs Dragon (the 3-0 over Best, a 2-1 over Kal in GOM, and a 1-2 to Stork in WCG). In all of 2008 (statistically a good year for July at 79% wins ZvP) the only dragon July faced was Bisu and they went 2-2.
Yes I'd like to see more games against top players during that time period. At the end of the day, results against S-class opponents are really what I want to know. That's always been true and I'm not going to back track on that truism: it's easy to look good against inferior opponents. But the reality is that July does have a history accumulated over 6 years of consistently high level ZvP. There's not a single S-class Protoss in his entire career to have a winning record over him. If that's not S-class then what is?
6 years ago doesn't matter. The only thing that mattered in relation to his 2008 title was his play directly leading up to the title and how he lived up to it afterwards, and he honestly didn't. It's pretty hard to prove how great his ZvP was when he dropped out of every individual league since and didn't play proleague.
Though, I do want to address maybe your best point: he had a 79% winrate in 2008 in ZvP. That stat, by itself, clearly speaks s-class but his competition was not good, nor plentiful. He played a combination of Rock/Backho/Best/Tempest/Foru/Herb/Anytime (All very bad, or formerly good but ailing at the time players) for 14 of his 19 wins. He had 2 respectable wins against Bisu, and a win against Han/Tyson who had deceptively good PvZ back then. He went 1-1 with Much who's respectable if not that great, and dropped a 1 off game to Doctor K that I won't count against him.
But even that doesn't speak of everything. He dropped out of his next OSL to Bisu and Much in a group he made specifically to A: let him get through on the benefit of his ZvP and B: Potentially beat Flash who was his biggest threat in the tournament. He lost to all three to get knocked out. Also, on the matter of his PvZ, he got knocked out of the MSL of the same season to Tempest 0-2 in MST.
July had respectable, sometimes brilliant ZvP. I compare it to, say, Sea's ZvT. Really good, sometimes able to upset even the best player in said matchup, but not good enough or consistently dominant enough to garner "S-class." July was not s-class in ZvP, the only player who would've had S-class PvZ in 2008 to me was Jaedong who not only put up great overall stats, but had to play a whole lot of good protosses along the way (Like Kal and Free, who July never even played in 08.) Hell, he was even capable of knocking Bisu out of a tournament, unlike July.
I'm very disapproving of how often "s-class" gets thrown around, people act like there's 3 or more s-class players in every matchup (Like Snow's PvT or Movie's PvZ or Luxury's ZvZ or like EVERY dragon's PvP at one point, or July's ZvP or Hydra's ZvZ or god knows how many TvZ players). We might have different distinctions on what makes an S-Class matchup but the way I see it, you're not s-class in something unless you're the absolute best or at the very least tied for the best in the matchup to me and July most definitely wasn't a better PvZer than Jaedong in 08, which wasn't even a great ZvP year for Jaedong.
July had really good ZvP, probably second best in 08, and significantly worse in 09 and beyond. It was still a fluke title.
I should hope that my best point would either be on July's influence on metagame (as brilliant as JD's muta/hydra was, it's July's variant that actually became the backbone of what we see today, and it's July's play that influenced many of the all-in timings that were to come during Swarm Season, including Luxury's timings in early 2009).
...Or that July's level of play in 2008 was consistent with the results he had been producing up until that point -- a record of consistently going 50% or better against every "top Protoss" (since you hate the term S-class). From the time of his Gillette OSL run all the way until his 4th place finish in GOM Classic S3 he was not someone to write off no matter who the opponent was. I am not saying "well look, he was beating the best guys back in 2004!" but rather that "in every single year, mid-2004ish through mid-2009ish, he was a serious threat to any top rated Protoss."
And no, that record wasn't entirely spotless but whose ever is? Jaedong failed to go anywhere in Ever 08 because that very same Backho beat him and he failed to advance in GOM Classic S1 because that very same Tempest 2-1'd him out of the tournament. Definitely Jaedong had to prove himself against more -- A LOT more -- of the top talent (and succeed at that he did) during 2008, but whereas July was the #2 ZvP of 2007, Jaedong was coming off a ZvP history of getting 3-1'd by Rock so I would argue that there was a hell of a lot more to prove.
On May 16 2011 23:36 Iplaythings wrote: While the race distribution for each race of the PR is "somewhat" equal (4T, 4z, 2P) You look at CBNC and see 4 terans
lol
Terran wasn't that great last season, but this season they are looking pretty good. 5 of the top 10 ELO are Terran and there are some others who are moving up the list and Leta who played some solid games of SC. The rise of Terran has naturally caused the list of Zergs to spread more thinly (3 in the top 10, but only 5 in the top 20, a whole bunch of them clustered at 2110 to 2118 ELO). And Protoss... a number of them are congealing in the 10-20 range, a few of them (Movie, Horang2, Snow, Free) working their way up, a couple others nose-diving (Stork, Stats). Currently only 2 Protoss are actually in the top 10: Bisu at #2 and Movie at #10, which ironically are exactly the same as their PR positions.
Man, SK is the only zerg looking good right now. Calm and zero are kinda in the middle, but everyone else just looks bad. Wonder if the queens will catch on if SK continues his success.
I also wonder how much can be attributed to the sheep.
TwoToneTerran with some serious revisionist history in this thread... the only real luck July had was that Luxury megachoked his 2-0 into a 2-3 loss against Best...
July played great that SL. Watch the games maybe. Sure he dropped off after but to say it was a fluke is retarded... the only fluke SL I can think of might be Calm's (*IMO obv*) and even then his victory over JD carries him..
Watched every single game of the starleague run. It is not hard to look impressive when Backho and rock play like trash. The whipping of Best was pretty amusing but we've already covered how big of a letdown Best is. I'm okay with people disagreeing with me on whether or not it was a fluke, but it is by far the most unimpressive starleague run in history.
I just think it was a fluke because he was not considered much of a threat going into the title, it was not a good series of opponents to win the title, and he was never a threat or even considered a threat to win a title after he won the title. These are all the fundamentals of a fluke win in pretty much any competition. He just happens to be July who does own.
I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
On May 17 2011 17:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Watched every single game of the starleague run. It is not hard to look impressive when Backho and rock play like trash. The whipping of Best was pretty amusing but we've already covered how big of a letdown Best is. I'm okay with people disagreeing with me on whether or not it was a fluke, but it is by far the most unimpressive starleague run in history.
I just think it was a fluke because he was not considered much of a threat going into the title, it was not a good series of opponents to win the title, and he was never a threat or even considered a threat to win a title after he won the title. These are all the fundamentals of a fluke win in pretty much any competition. He just happens to be July who does own.
I'd actually agree with you that it was a fluke, though Casy's win is comparable in that regard. Really, I'd compare it to a Skyhigh run for the championship in terran season.
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
So let me get this straight: if people disagree with you and point out that you're wrong, it's somehow pointless to argue with them? Did you expect to get universal support for a questionable position?
We have so different ways of looking at July's gold. For me it was one of the most epic moments in Starcraft when he beat best who was absolutely unstoppable at the time. Don't forget that Best was on his way to become a royal roader and almost no one in the community doubted that he would crush the old Julyzerg who didn't even get to play in PL at the time.
But July is a champion. That SL run was not about playing perfectly or about having a perfect record. It was about fighting and coping with crazy play and nerves. Best got scared and July owned him. Best was never the same after that series. If he had won I'm sure he would have been one of the top players today.
On May 17 2011 21:43 Elroi wrote: We have so different ways of looking at July's gold. For me it was one of the most epic moments in Starcraft when he beat best who was absolutely unstoppable at the time. Don't forget that Best was on his way to become a royal roader and almost no one in the community doubted that he would crush the old Julyzerg who didn't even get to play in PL at the time.
But July is a champion. That SL run was not about playing perfectly or about having a perfect record. It was about fighting and coping with crazy play and nerves. Best got scared and July owned him. Best was never the same after that series. If he had won I'm sure he would have been one of the top players today.
Yet his nerves are what prevented Best from ever being a top player for a prolonged time. A player truly capable of being a top player would be able to recover from being beaten in a finals like that. Bisu eventually did vs Mind, Flash did vs Jaedong, Jaedong somewhat(but not completely) recovered from the losses to Flash, and Stork has been thrashed in finals for a long time, but he always makes his way back. Those are all top players, and the fact that Best can't do the same means that he can't be one.
So assuming that flash finishes the beat down of leta, I guess it will be pretty unanimous for flash #1. Kind of nice when the player who is the " most skilled" and the player with the best record are the same.
I'm more curious how much farther JD slips. It has been ugly for him lately. Well, he should at least be able to make it out of the Ro8, so hopefully for him, he will have rebounded since then.
On May 17 2011 23:21 hacklebeast wrote: So assuming that flash finishes the beat down of leta, I guess it will be pretty unanimous for flash #1. Kind of nice when the player who is the " most skilled" and the player with the best record are the same.
I'm more curious how much farther JD slips. It has been ugly for him lately. Well, he should at least be able to make it out of the Ro8, so hopefully for him, he will have rebounded since then.
I'm not too worried about jaedong, his play is FAR better in individual leagues than in the team leagues. It's just how he functions atm.
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
On May 17 2011 17:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: Watched every single game of the starleague run. It is not hard to look impressive when Backho and rock play like trash. The whipping of Best was pretty amusing but we've already covered how big of a letdown Best is. I'm okay with people disagreeing with me on whether or not it was a fluke, but it is by far the most unimpressive starleague run in history.
Agreed on these points.
I just think it was a fluke because he was not considered much of a threat going into the title, it was not a good series of opponents to win the title, and he was never a threat or even considered a threat to win a title after he won the title. These are all the fundamentals of a fluke win in pretty much any competition. He just happens to be July who does own.
He wasn't seen as a threat because his ZvT and ZvZ were not at the level we would expect. Given that it was the height of Protoss season, the only Terran to make Ro8 was Flash (who got eliminated 2-0 by Luxury) and the only other Zerg to make it was Luxury because July survived the all-Zerg group. After Luxury's win I think people considered him the favorite because he only had to make it through Best, but somehow he failed at that -- and let's be honest, it was more because Luxury wasn't that good at ZvP back then than because Best was any good at PvZ.
But if you had told me in advance that July would have an all Protoss path then I would have picked him as one of the favorites, without even having prior knowledge of which toss players he would be facing.
Also, as I said earlier, July also made 4th place in GOM Classic S3 and although he had a relatively easy run there too, the fact is that he did it, so evidently he was more of a title threat than you'd like to believe.
On May 17 2011 21:43 Elroi wrote: We have so different ways of looking at July's gold. For me it was one of the most epic moments in Starcraft when he beat best who was absolutely unstoppable at the time. Don't forget that Best was on his way to become a royal roader and almost no one in the community doubted that he would crush the old Julyzerg who didn't even get to play in PL at the time.
But July is a champion. That SL run was not about playing perfectly or about having a perfect record. It was about fighting and coping with crazy play and nerves. Best got scared and July owned him. Best was never the same after that series. If he had won I'm sure he would have been one of the top players today.
Yet his nerves are what prevented Best from ever being a top player for a prolonged time. A player truly capable of being a top player would be able to recover from being beaten in a finals like that. Bisu eventually did vs Mind, Flash did vs Jaedong, Jaedong somewhat(but not completely) recovered from the losses to Flash, and Stork has been thrashed in finals for a long time, but he always makes his way back. Those are all top players, and the fact that Best can't do the same means that he can't be one.
Nerves are not why Best lost and they are not why he's failed to go places since then. If you look at after that final, he was only barely eliminated from WCG by JD (2-1) in the Ro8, made it to the semifinal in Incruit OSL (the very next season) where an on-fire Stork 3-1'd him, and was tearing it up in GOM until he ran into an on-fire SkyHigh in the Ro8 (SkyHigh was in turn eliminated by an on-fire Bisu in the semi -- this was also the season SkyHigh did the Reverse AK in the SWL finals) and got 2-1'd.
But even at its best it was clumsy, which is the main reason why I've never truly had confidence in it even though his record at the time was actually pretty solid.
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
Bisu seems to be doing pretty well vs JD
Correct me if I'm wrong but in progleauge don't both bisu and stork always do good vs JD?
On May 18 2011 03:40 Mortality wrote: He wasn't seen as a threat because his ZvT and ZvZ were not at the level we would expect. Given that it was the height of Protoss season, the only Terran to make Ro8 was Flash (who got eliminated 2-0 by Luxury) and the only other Zerg to make it was Luxury because July survived the all-Zerg group. After Luxury's win I think people considered him the favorite because he only had to make it through Best, but somehow he failed at that -- and let's be honest, it was more because Luxury wasn't that good at ZvP back then than because Best was any good at PvZ.
But if you had told me in advance that July would have an all Protoss path then I would have picked him as one of the favorites, without even having prior knowledge of which toss players he would be facing.
Also, as I said earlier, July also made 4th place in GOM Classic S3 and although he had a relatively easy run there too, the fact is that he did it, so evidently he was more of a title threat than you'd like to believe.
The thing is, his run in gom wasn't that impressive. Spear, backho, skyhigh? None of these guys can vZ to save their life. He did beat Kal, but I already went over that earlier when I pointed out that Kal had specifically not practiced for Gom because July is a teammate, but July did. No one reasonable expected him to beat Flash, but to get stomped 3-0 (and I mean, Flash was just so plainly better it was sickening. This was when everyone in the world thought that not only was TvZ Flash's bad matchup, that Flash was actually BAD at TvZ -- losses to kwanro, yarnc, jaedong in both tourneys etc.). I remember that one outsider game, 7gas zerg vs 2 1/2 base terran, who wins? Terran of course!
Anyhow he wasn't a threat in that tournament despite his berth. Going all the way up to the semifinals he wasn't a threat to anyone there, as evidenced by Effort kind of smashing him in the 3rd/4th matchup. It's fair enough to say that if you had given him the exact same path to the finals that he had before that he would've been a threat, but well backho and rock are not perennial deep starleaguers for a reason (Rock used to be! Don't chide me for that one). July's win had all the qualities of a fluke in every way and it has proven to be a blip in his success, not a trend. Flukes do that. (it is why Sync was a fluke player, 1 bit of success and VANISH)
But July is a champion. That SL run was not about playing perfectly or about having a perfect record. It was about fighting and coping with crazy play and nerves. Best got scared and July owned him. Best was never the same after that series. If he had won I'm sure he would have been one of the top players today.
See, he actually had a nearly impeccable run in that OSL, only 1 loss to backho and yarnc? 12-2 is a sick run for most people. It was just the quality of his opponents and his followup to becoming champion. Also, Best was never the same after Stork manhandled him, and more recently Flash.
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
Bisu seems to be doing pretty well vs JD
Correct me if I'm wrong but in progleauge don't both bisu and stork always do good vs JD?
Yeah. The two wins he got against them in march was his first ever win against Stork in PL (now 1-5) and his second ever win in PL against Bisu (now 2-8). Meanwhile, he is 2-0 in BoX vs Bisu (3-0 if you count WCG), and 3-0 in BoX vs Stork (5-1 if you count WCG, 6-1 if you count Seoul e-Sports Festival, whatever that was).
Wait a second TwoToneTerran... don't jump on my boy SynC. First of all, NATE OSL gold wasn't his only result. A brief TLPD check would have shown you that. Second of all, SynC was playing against a lot of the top players.
I know you probably don't recognize names like Junior and Jinsu and you might not even recognize JinNam but at the time SynC was playing them they were all top 10 KeSPA. And a number of other names that have been long since forgotten were very solid back then. On top of that if you look at his runs: beating ChRh and HOT -- not to mention helping eliminate The Emporer Himself in group stages -- to win OSL, climbing over Xellos, JinNam, and JinSu to face NaDa in the finals of ITV.
If you want to criticize July for easy competition, that's fine and I agree. I brought up his semis in GOM because from my view pure luck alone is not enough to go that far even just twice. But criticizing SynC's win as a fluke? -_-;;
At one point SynC was 39-19 (67%) back in time when there was no PL, when in order to do that you had to be consistently going 6 wins for every 2 losses in individual league (and it ALWAYS takes at least 2 losses to get eliminated, so do the math). SynC was a strong TvTer in his day ("A-class" only really being a punching bag to S-class TvTers like NaDa and Xellos), a VERY strong TvZer who was pretty much the favorite against anyone not named Yellow all the way up until the dominance of Gorush/July, and good enough at TvP so long as he wasn't facing someone like Ra or Kingdom.
I feel bad for SynC because everyone these days says shit about his win that isn't true. The main reason people weren't watching is because of the World Cup. The main reason people remember NaDa's MSL KPGA wins from this time is that they got absorbed into his legacy, not because everyone was tuning into MSL rather than OSL like so many people on this forum seem to think. FFS, MSL didn't even get threads on TLnet until it was actually called MSL rather than KPGA. You could almost say NaDa made MSL with what he was doing over there at that time.
Edit: and for the record, Flash wasn't really bad at TvZ at that time. This was right before Flash broke out with his super dominance. And the criticism of Flash at the time was more like "stick to SK Terran, it's all you're good at."
On May 17 2011 21:38 aupstar wrote: I can't be bothered quoting all the SKT Bisu fanboys as they're plainly too lazy to look up stats on liquipedia and instead accusing me of lying and such.
Though with one of the posters I agree with, I did miss Flash as one of the players that Bisu beat in his last 30 games but I did not do so intentionally..
Still, I think Bisu is over rated, I'm not comparing him to Flash or Jaedong because they're just on a whole different level. Plus, their performance against first class players is something Bisu is incapable of accomplishing (please look at liquipedia before responding).
Though I must say, it's becoming increasingly apparent to me that there is no point having this discussion with Bisu fanboys who will follow blindly 'till the end and retort with lame statements like "you're lying" or "flash loses too ukno!"
Bisu seems to be doing pretty well vs JD
Correct me if I'm wrong but in progleauge don't both bisu and stork always do good vs JD?
Yeah. The two wins he got against them in march was his first ever win against Stork in PL (now 1-5) and his second ever win in PL against Bisu (now 2-8). Meanwhile, he is 2-0 in BoX vs Bisu (3-0 if you count WCG), and 3-0 in BoX vs Stork (5-1 if you count WCG, 6-1 if you count Seoul e-Sports Festival, whatever that was).
Ok thats what I thought, they always beat jaedong in proleague, but in a box series Jaedong seems to always win . ^^
His win was fine, it was a respectable tournament with respectable wins. He didn't really play the best players of the time but I'd compare it to Luxury's MSL: Not the best players, but a whole lot of REALLY good players along the way. I was just saying the other way you can consider a champion a fluke is if they never make a strong run in another title again, in which case Sync, ForGG and Mind are the most notorious. I said fluke player rather than fluke championship. The second biggest fluke championship run was clearly Casy's.
I'm curious where you draw the line, though. If we count OSL/MSL as the major leagues, there's been 56 total (58 with the current MSL + the new MySL), of which we've got a small number of players taking a lot of the titles. Multiple titles:
is 10 players with 38 golds - even if none of F/B/J win a title this time around that's more than 2/3 of the total.
Are all the other 20 titles "fluke" titles? Obviously not. We can look at players with multiple finals appearances, strong resumes, good records vs other good players, etc, and say they definitely deserved at least "a" title. Reach, ChoJJa, Anytime, Kingdom, Stork, Fantasy.
Then there are three recent titles - Calm, Hydra, and (arguably) EffOrt - which we can't really judge yet. All three are A-class at least, but we've got the Calm/Clam problem, Hydra's ZvT issues, and EffOrt's retirement to consider. And two old titles - Freemura and Grrrr... - which don't really fit into the modern SC continuum and don't fit the discussion.
That leaves 7. GGPlay, Luxury, XellOs, Sync, Casy, Mind, fOrGG. Off the cuff, I'd rank them in decreasing order of "legitness": GGPlay is probably the best player in that group; or maybe Xellos. Luxury's run was brilliant, and up till the scandal he was always a threat at least to group stages. Mind hasn't ever gone as deep again but he's still playing pretty well over a long-ish period. I'd normally be inclined to call fOrGG's title a fluke, but it was such an impressive run at the time I'm hesitant. Given SynC's career record I'm going to put him here but I know nothing about him. Casy's was a lucky run even in his opponents: he did actually beat Rainbow in a tiebreaker but then the first name I recognize is YellOw in the semi and then ChoJJa in the final, both his best MU. But it's YellOw and ChoJJa even so, both with top ten ZvT ELO peaks. So overall... I'm inclined to say there's not really been a "fluke" title. Hmm.
Except... that brings us around to July's mouse. First group was weak: Mind's not bad, but FrOzen is. Ro16 was 2-1 in an all-Zerg group which I guess is impressive. But that Rock-BackHo-BeSt string in the playoff rounds is just weak. Probably weaker than Casy's run (although at least July didn't fall all the way through tiebreakers and squeak into the tournament in the last possible way). On the other hand, he did completely smash BeSt, who had beaten Lux 3-2... I guess I'd say with his standing July totally deserved the golden mouse but when he actually won it it was a little weak.
On May 18 2011 10:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Mortality:
His win was fine, it was a respectable tournament with respectable wins. He didn't really play the best players of the time but I'd compare it to Luxury's MSL: Not the best players, but a whole lot of REALLY good players along the way. I was just saying the other way you can consider a champion a fluke is if they never make a strong run in another title again, in which case Sync, ForGG and Mind are the most notorious. I said fluke player rather than fluke championship. The second biggest fluke championship run was clearly Casy's.
Really? REALLY?
You're getting to be ridiculous with the way you're throwing around the word fluke and questioning every championship that doesn't feature a bo5 against KeSPA #1.
On May 17 2011 17:22 Vasoline73 wrote: TwoToneTerran with some serious revisionist history in this thread... the only real luck July had was that Luxury megachoked his 2-0 into a 2-3 loss against Best...
July played great that SL. Watch the games maybe. Sure he dropped off after but to say it was a fluke is retarded... the only fluke SL I can think of might be Calm's (*IMO obv*) and even then his victory over JD carries him..
Calm were really fucking good at that time. It was FULLY deserved.
Even if he zvz'd his way there for the most part in his MSL he was a MONSTER in the following season, both in proleague and the EVER OSL only to get stopped by flash.
Then he slumped and a otherwise consistent and relieable zerg which signature (to me) that he used 3hatch lurker as much as 3 hatch muta.
Now his signature is weird plays and cheeses while choking. So sad.
Browse over the power rankings of that time to see JWD and Riptide (iirc?) ranking him
On May 18 2011 10:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Mortality:
His win was fine, it was a respectable tournament with respectable wins. He didn't really play the best players of the time but I'd compare it to Luxury's MSL: Not the best players, but a whole lot of REALLY good players along the way. I was just saying the other way you can consider a champion a fluke is if they never make a strong run in another title again, in which case Sync, ForGG and Mind are the most notorious. I said fluke player rather than fluke championship. The second biggest fluke championship run was clearly Casy's.
Really? REALLY?
You're getting to be ridiculous with the way you're throwing around the word fluke and questioning every championship that doesn't feature a bo5 against KeSPA #1.
What? ForGG and Mind had two of the most challenging title runs ever. That's not even my definition of a fluke championship because of how difficult their road was, but it is the tradtional view of a fluke. But okay, listing 3 titles out of like 60 that are most commonly referenced as champions who don't live up to their titles is being ridiculous.
On May 18 2011 12:03 VGhost wrote: Casy's was a lucky run even in his opponents: he did actually beat Rainbow in a tiebreaker but then the first name I recognize is YellOw in the semi and then ChoJJa in the final, both his best MU. But it's YellOw and ChoJJa even so, both with top ten ZvT ELO peaks. So overall... I'm inclined to say there's not really been a "fluke" title. Hmm.
Casy's a solid contender for worst vP of all time, though. In the last 5 years of his career, he managed an anemic 7-29 (19.44%) against Protoss. One of those wins came against a protoss in single elimination, but an educated opinion would tell you that Casy would have been one of the largest underdogs ever against a Protoss in a Bo3 or Bo5.
It's very strange for a player who's known as completely unable to play a matchup to become a starleague winner, and I think it definitely qualifies as a fluke.
edit: Casy beat RainBOw on a map with a fairly significant (7.5% over 124 games) T>P bias (and a 9.1% / 137 games Z > P bias) , so while it's not a Tears of the Moon or anything, it's a pretty bad Protoss map. I wonder if a VOD of the game is out there anywhere.
Oh, no question it's a weird-ass way to win a title. When I was making that post I looked the whole thing up. Casy dropped literally every tiebreaker down to the very last game in the very last part of the wild card entry.
And then he didn't play a Protoss in BoX stages.
But he did beat ChoJJa and YellOw - even with favorable maps, that's pretty impressive. He did win. He did somehow make it out of the group stage. It's the closest thing I think BW's seen to a fluke, but I don't think it was somehow "unearned" so I don't want to actually call it one. If that makes sense? It's mostly a question of semantics.
Now, can we quit with this fluke discussion? It's seriously stupid. We could question just about every win. While we're here, why not question Jaedong's Ever 07 win as well? No matter how you look at it, JD gimmicked and Stork choked. And I guess NaDa's IOPS run counts for shit because all but one game was against Zerg. And Boxer, King of Gimmickry, I guess he didn't deserve anything?
ASDF. The player who wins has to climb a mountain to get there. No matter what insults you want to throw at him for the bracket he has faced, everyone he faces along the way has also been climbing that same mountain and knocking off the supposedly stronger players. Wahh Wahh Casy didn't face a Protoss. That's because there weren't any left. Wahh Wahh July faced Best instead of Luxury or Flash. That's because they failed to climb to the top of the mountain. Wahh Wahh Stork choked. That's because he's Silver Surfer. Wahh Wahh NaDa is Batman. Too bad motherfuckers.
Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree.
It's fine to criticize an accomplishment like winning a Starleague through a weak bracket run, but at the end of the day it's still a championship and there's nothing harder to do in BW. I don't think there's such a thing as a "fluke" gold, only different degrees of difficulty in attaining it, in the specific time periods they were won.
On May 19 2011 12:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree.
It is offtopic and a discussion is pretty pointless when either of you wont accept to be wrong
On May 19 2011 12:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree.
It is offtopic and a discussion is pretty pointless when either of you wont accept to be wrong
There isn't even a "wrong" in this discussion, and PR threads have a long history of going on about nothing until the end of the month.
On May 19 2011 12:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree.
To be honest, I don't feel like criticizing a Starleague gold is in good conscience. It belittles the efforts of not only the player who achieved that but all the players who fought to climb the same mountain.
Nobody has to stop doing this just because I say so; however proud I may be, I'm not so narcissistic as to think that. But, by the very same token, I have every right to criticize the value of this discussion. All it does is open up a floodgate of complaints and "what ifs." At the end of the day, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. We might not value the winner as the better player for any of a number of reasons -- and that is totally fine -- but the player who climbs the mountain deserves credit for doing so, not ire.
Didn't realize that, protoss have fallen =( Still not as bad as the time when free was #1 protoss in kespa rank lol
Protoss have not fallen in BW at all. They are doing amazing in PL. And there are a lot of potential Protoss players around right now. Like Grape, Horang2, Movie, Snow, Brave and you can't discount the 6 dragons with Bork or Stisu (lol) leading the pack. I can't say the same thing for Terran, Terran have old stars (like Mind, Leta, Sea and Light with Flash and Baby) but no new Terran star that impressed me in the last year. And Zerg have only Soulkey rising up. Protoss have the most "up-and-coming" players. I personally think that next year, Protoss race will rise up and take a SL.
On May 18 2011 12:03 VGhost wrote: I'd normally be inclined to call fOrGG's title a fluke, but it was such an impressive run at the time I'm hesitant.
You're damn right you better be hesitant. You do not fluke your way to consecutive Bo5 wins over Flash and Jaedong to take the championship. This is not a possibility.
Retroactively calling a championship a fluke run doesn't make any sense. You base it on that tournament and who they faced, not if they made another finals run later. Their skill, or lack their off, after the tournament has nothing to do with their championship run. Time only flows in one direction. Btw, Mind did make another Ro4 the exact season after he won, so he didn't really go anywhere.
Didn't realize that, protoss have fallen =( Still not as bad as the time when free was #1 protoss in kespa rank lol
Protoss have not fallen in BW at all. They are doing amazing in PL. And there are a lot of potential Protoss players around right now. Like Grape, Horang2, Movie, Snow, Brave and you can't discount the 6 dragons with Bork or Stisu (lol) leading the pack. I can't say the same thing for Terran, Terran have old stars (like Mind, Leta, Sea and Light with Flash and Baby) but no new Terran star that impressed me in the last year. And Zerg have only Soulkey rising up. Protoss have the most "up-and-coming" players. I personally think that next year, Protoss race will rise up and take a SL.
I don't think a resurgence of old names should really count against Terran. And we are now in our third consecutive MSL without a Protoss semifinalist. Any standard by which Baby is old also makes Movie old considering Movie started garnering attention in a big way back in early/mid 2009 and made OSL finals in January 2010. Horang2 has also been A-teamer for quite some time. Snow impresses me, I'll say it without hesitation. As for Grape and Brave... they show potential, but I'd hesitate to even put them on the same level as Bogus.
On May 18 2011 12:03 VGhost wrote: I'd normally be inclined to call fOrGG's title a fluke, but it was such an impressive run at the time I'm hesitant.
You're damn right you better be hesitant. You do not fluke your way to consecutive Bo5 wins over Flash and Jaedong to take the championship. This is not a possibility.
Retroactively calling a championship a fluke run doesn't make any sense. You base it on that tournament and who they faced, not if they made another finals run later. Their skill, or lack their off, after the tournament has nothing to do with their championship run. Time only flows in one direction. Btw, Mind did make another Ro4 the exact season after he won, so he didn't really go anywhere.
to be fair Flash at the time wasnt the monster that he is now, and interhouse bo5's usually end up getting messy
this, it's just that a lot of the familiar names from 12 months ago aren't performing (i'm looking at you kal/jangbi/free to some extent/best until very recently) and new players are coming through and doing well (horang2/grape/snow/stats etc).
it also doens't help that the flash/jaedong domination gives somewhat of an impression of t/z being better (and when they're not winning titles, the likes of fantasy/effort/hydra are getting the cheddar instead - when did we last have a protoss individual league winner?)
Stork was the last new individual league champion protoss, in 2008.
Bisu won clubday like 2 weeks later. This was November 2008 when protoss won both titles and everyone hated protoss because they were SO DOMINANT UGH and now it's zerg and we miss them.
We need more outrageously protoss favored maps in individual leagues. (They kind of suck in Proleague because they end up with mirror matches all the time, but that's not a problem in individual leagues.) JD and Flash will have a fair chance anyway, but if maps could help get rid of some of the Calms and Hydras to allow some protoss representation at least in the semifinals, I would be all in favor.
On May 21 2011 21:34 okum wrote: We need more outrageously protoss favored maps in individual leagues. (They kind of suck in Proleague because they end up with mirror matches all the time, but that's not a problem in individual leagues.) JD and Flash will have a fair chance anyway, but if maps could help get rid of some of the Calms and Hydras to allow some protoss representation at least in the semifinals, I would be all in favor.
Why reward bad players with biased maps that favour them?
This is like tall poppy syndrome..
Map makers should endeavour to create balanced maps every time. Not change it just so we can have winners from different races.
On May 21 2011 21:34 okum wrote: We need more outrageously protoss favored maps in individual leagues. (They kind of suck in Proleague because they end up with mirror matches all the time, but that's not a problem in individual leagues.) JD and Flash will have a fair chance anyway, but if maps could help get rid of some of the Calms and Hydras to allow some protoss representation at least in the semifinals, I would be all in favor.
Protoss plains was so bad for the protoss as a race lol... just ended up sniping each other.
I blame the zergs. It was always like that - strong zerg means no protoss (with some odd Bisu here and there) and BW is recently turning into zergcraft with PvZ almost unwinable and ZvT well manageable at the highest level.
Since 2009 we have 5 distinct zerg starlegue winners, Luxury, Calm, Hydra, Effort, Jaedong. Compare that to the 2 terrans - Flash and Fantasy and 0 Protoss Not only that, we also had pretty shitty 3 ZvZ finals and one all zerg semifinal on top of that. To put things into perspective, last PvP final was in 2008 and last TvT finals...um, 2004 lol?
On May 22 2011 02:09 L0thar wrote: I blame the zergs. It was always like that - strong zerg means no protoss (with some odd Bisu here and there) and BW is recently turning into zergcraft with PvZ almost unwinable and ZvT well manageable at the highest level.
Since 2009 we have 5 distinct zerg starlegue winners, Luxury, Calm, Hydra, Effort, Jaedong. Compare that to the 2 terrans - Flash and Fantasy and 0 Protoss Not only that, we also had pretty shitty 3 ZvZ finals and one all zerg semifinal on top of that. To put things into perspective, last PvP final was in 2008 and last TvT finals...um, 2004 lol?
In this SPL TvZ is 54% and ZvP is 52% - ZvP being the least imba of all match ups. Its just a coincidence that there aren't 3 terrans in the round of four this MSL like in the one before the last one.
On May 22 2011 02:09 L0thar wrote: I blame the zergs. It was always like that - strong zerg means no protoss (with some odd Bisu here and there) and BW is recently turning into zergcraft with PvZ almost unwinable and ZvT well manageable at the highest level.
Since 2009 we have 5 distinct zerg starlegue winners, Luxury, Calm, Hydra, Effort, Jaedong. Compare that to the 2 terrans - Flash and Fantasy and 0 Protoss Not only that, we also had pretty shitty 3 ZvZ finals and one all zerg semifinal on top of that. To put things into perspective, last PvP final was in 2008 and last TvT finals...um, 2004 lol?
In this SPL TvZ is 54% and ZvP is 52% - ZvP being the least imba of all match ups. Its just a coincidence that there aren't 3 terrans in the round of four this MSL like in the one before the last one.
Minus Bisu who is an obvious outlier then ZvP becomes 57% XD
On May 19 2011 12:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Could you be less insulting, please? People have every right to criticize someone's accomplishments as long as it's in good conscience, you're the only one whining and acting like their feelings are hurt. I usually have a lot of respect for your insight, but you can't just get angry and demand we stop talking about a topic just because you don't like it and disagree.
To be honest, I don't feel like criticizing a Starleague gold is in good conscience. It belittles the efforts of not only the player who achieved that but all the players who fought to climb the same mountain.
Nobody has to stop doing this just because I say so; however proud I may be, I'm not so narcissistic as to think that. But, by the very same token, I have every right to criticize the value of this discussion. All it does is open up a floodgate of complaints and "what ifs." At the end of the day, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. We might not value the winner as the better player for any of a number of reasons -- and that is totally fine -- but the player who climbs the mountain deserves credit for doing so, not ire.
Well i disagree a little bit with you there. It's perfectly ok to criticize a winner and say someone was better and would have made a more deserving winner, as long as you can back it up with a little knowledge and arguments.
Just like in tennis, you can perfectly call a fluke win when someone who never did anything else wins something big and return to shadows. For instance, i'd call Gaudio French Open '04 a fluke, even though he did beat Coria who was imo the favorite that year in final. Because he only won when Coria inexplicably got unable to serve or run... The rest of his career is ok, but mostly unremarkable. Same goes for the amazing Johansson win in the AO '02 against Safin.
You get a relatively easy draw, you manage to get a big win at the right time, because every other time you'll get crushed by the opponent you face and there you go, you're a slam winner.
Well, it's the same in BW imo. You can perfectly have an easy draw and most importantly in BW, we have maps. Casy won an OSL almost empty of protoss since maps were terrible for them. I'd say his side of the mountain was wayy easier to climb than most of players. Yes, he beat Yellow and Chojja who were good at that times (Chojja was even #1 Kespa!) but it was Casy good mu on favorable maps... And he sneaked his way out of group stage barely because OSL had a stupid system this time around.
I think he's a fluke, even though he was expected to do well as a newcomer, even though he got to the OSL semis 2 seasons after his win. I think this way because he didn't prove himself a reliable player for his team nor a reliable SL player. He could get big wins and terrible losses on the same day. He makes me thinks of Upmagic for that. And he was awful at tvp. He got lucky to get a relatively easy OSL for his style at the exact time when he managed to get his shit together and play consistently. Good on him, but it doesn't exactly make him an all-time great in my eyes. I don't value his OSL gold as much as i value most of other winners.
Now about July 3rd OSL... I think he was lucky to face only protoss and he had a relatively easy OSL because he was just eating protoss at that time while struggling with other mu. But i certainly won't call July a fluke since he proved to be reliable in starleagues and for his teams for a long time before that. He was the first zerg to knock out Oov in a serie. The first zerg to win a zvt osl final. He proved himself long before he had to face Best. So yes, it was kind of a surprise to see July winning again, long past his prime, he was kind of lucky with his draw, but he was certainly not a fluke win.
This PR is really lacking because of no Horang2. He's not even in CBNC or the shoutouts. He's doing way better than Leta right now, and IMO the wrong ACE player is on the PR. It should've been FBH, not Iris, and FBH should be ranked at 8th, with Mind being lower, Leta being off the PR (replaced with Horang2) and Soulkey should be 9th (so move everyone up)
Heck, I think Movie is doing better than Soulkey too, so it's like...kinda weird that Leta and Soulkey are that high on the PR.
IMO Bisu and Flash>JD too, but...Bisu especially is on fire. His PvT is peaking and it looks stronger than even Stork's. I think his vT right now is second best next to Flash's, and his vZ is clearly the best in the scene. His PvP has yet to be tested, but his game against Horang2...
On May 22 2011 06:24 wherebugsgo wrote: This PR is really lacking because of no Horang2. He's not even in CBNC or the shoutouts. He's doing way better than Leta right now, and IMO the wrong ACE player is on the PR. It should've been FBH, not Iris, and FBH should be ranked at 8th, with Mind being lower, Leta being off the PR (replaced with Horang2) and Soulkey should be 9th (so move everyone up)
Heck, I think Movie is doing better than Soulkey too, so it's like...kinda weird that Leta and Soulkey are that high on the PR.
IMO Bisu and Flash>JD too, but...Bisu especially is on fire. His PvT is peaking and it looks stronger than even Stork's. I think his vT right now is second best next to Flash's, and his vZ is clearly the best in the scene. His PvP has yet to be tested, but his game against Horang2...
Well you have to take into account when the PR was written. At the time there was no doubt JD should have been on top, even though others have looked better in the weeks following it. I would also think twice before calling Bisu's vT better than Jaedong's.
On May 22 2011 06:24 wherebugsgo wrote: This PR is really lacking because of no Horang2. He's not even in CBNC or the shoutouts. He's doing way better than Leta right now, and IMO the wrong ACE player is on the PR. It should've been FBH, not Iris, and FBH should be ranked at 8th, with Mind being lower, Leta being off the PR (replaced with Horang2) and Soulkey should be 9th (so move everyone up)
Heck, I think Movie is doing better than Soulkey too, so it's like...kinda weird that Leta and Soulkey are that high on the PR.
IMO Bisu and Flash>JD too, but...Bisu especially is on fire. His PvT is peaking and it looks stronger than even Stork's. I think his vT right now is second best next to Flash's, and his vZ is clearly the best in the scene. His PvP has yet to be tested, but his game against Horang2...
Well you have to take into account when the PR was written. At the time there was no doubt JD should have been on top, even though others have looked better in the weeks following it. I would also think twice before calling Bisu's vT better than Jaedong's.
Bisu hasn't lost to randoms in vT recently. Admittedly, neither has Jaedong, but Bisu pretty much only loses to Flash, and even those games are close. The last times I remember him losing to anyone other than Flash were Leta and Hiya. Jaedong has looked pretty good but he has dropped some random games to people he shouldn't have lost to. His ZvP and ZvZ are looking really shaky, with that series against Snow and the random loss to Horang2, and his refusal to stop going that dumb muta build that keeps giving him losses (like against Grape). His ZvZ has been....very lackluster as of late.
Although I would agree that at the time, Jaedong's vT looked beastly, since he defeated Flash and Sea so handily. If you look at both players' vT since January 1st, you'll see that they're really similar.
Bisu has a 75% winrate PvT since January 1st, 15-5, with 3 losses to Flash, one to Hiya, and one to Leta, all excellent players.
Jaedong has a 78% winrate ZvT since January 1st, 18-5, with 1 loss to Flash, Bogus, Reality, BByong, and Light.
Compare this to Flash who is 22-3 (88%), and Stork who is 11-9 (55%).
Now ofc the PR takes into account the players' stats for a month, right? So I think from that subset Jaedong definitely looks stronger in his ZvT, but his ZvZ and ZvP...
Bisu
PvP: 2-0 100%, one win against Free PvT: 2-2 50%, both losses to Flash, wins against Flash and Sea PvZ: 5-1 83%, win against JD, loss against ZerO
Flash:
TvP: 3-3 50% two wins against Bisu, one against Movie, losses to Bisu, Best, Much TvT: 2-1 66% series against Really TvZ: 3-2 60% both losses against JD
Jaedong:
ZvP: 0-1 0% loss to Bisu ZvT: 7-1 88%, wins against Flash, Sea, Fantasy ZvZ: 2-2 50% losses to Soulkey and great, win against s2
From that, clearly Jaedong's vT looks the best on paper, but neither Bisu nor Flash really had that many games. Out of a similar number of games vZ, Bisu definitely looked the hottest. None of the 3 have had to play many Ps in the past few months.
Honestly I think the top 3 on the PR has to be FBJ right now, it's just arguable who is better than who because of the way their matchups work. IMO Jaedong is looking the weakest and Flash is probably the strongest. Bisu is that one wildcard that can just own anyone when he has preparation and will always just about destroy any Z sent at him, but his vP and his vT weakness to Flash keeps Flash a notch higher right now, at least.
On May 22 2011 03:07 ~chut~ wrote: Now about July 3rd OSL... I think he was lucky to face only protoss and he had a relatively easy OSL because he was just eating protoss at that time while struggling with other mu. But i certainly won't call July a fluke since he proved to be reliable in starleagues and for his teams for a long time before that. He was the first zerg to knock out Oov in a serie. The first zerg to win a zvt osl final. He proved himself long before he had to face Best. So yes, it was kind of a surprise to see July winning again, long past his prime, he was kind of lucky with his draw, but he was certainly not a fluke win.
A win can be a fluke even if the player is not. His 3rd osl win has nothing to do with his previous 2.
On May 21 2011 21:34 okum wrote: We need more outrageously protoss favored maps in individual leagues. (They kind of suck in Proleague because they end up with mirror matches all the time, but that's not a problem in individual leagues.) JD and Flash will have a fair chance anyway, but if maps could help get rid of some of the Calms and Hydras to allow some protoss representation at least in the semifinals, I would be all in favor.
no, start blaming pvp if anything
there aren't protoss in later stages of leagues because they keep killing themselves off and end up meeting flash/jd later anyways
(ie just look at this MSL where you had a 3 protoss group where only 1 got out of it and then later on 2 of the 3 remaining protoss ended up having to face each other anyways)
Agreed. Seems like P players like PvP the most (I remember interview with player from all P group where all tosses speak how they are confident in PvP). So they gather in packs and eliminate each other.
Bleh. I don't think that's really an issue. It's not like T's and Z's never get mirror match groups. And anyway, certainly this MSL you can't blame mirror matches on Bisu losing group D or on Stork falling to Hydra, Free and Kal both dropping to 2 Terrans or Snow losing twice to Hero. And seriously, the only Protoss to make it to the Ro16 that had any serious chance at taking the title was Stork. Does anyone actually think Grape or Horang2 would have been the favorite against any of the Ro8 competitors? Maybe Leta, but even that I'd have doubts on. (Considering that both Grape and Horang2 are weakest at PvT and that the only Zergs left are known Protoss killers...)
You know, with all this talk of flukes there's been no discussion about the next month's PR yet, has there? A week and a half left is all that decides things.
Currently:
Top 3: Flash/Bisu/JD remain here. Order to be decided based on the rest of the month. Currently leaning towards Flash as #1 and JD as #3. Or perhaps La Mancha should be ranked #3 ahead of JD? :p
Some stats (all of this comes straight from TLPD, I'm just sticking it here so the numbers are present):
Flash: 6-1 since last PR, 10-4 since May 1, 14-7 since April 1, 23-10 since March 1. 7-3 in last 10 vs T, 7-3 in last 10 vs Z, 5-5 in last 10 vs P
*****all stats will be presented in this format unless otherwise stated*****
On paper these 3 are performing very similarly. Comparable win percentages over past 3 months, each one has had a "bad" period, but otherwise been solid as a rock. JD's bad period has been most recent, Bisu's furthest back. Of course, JD and Flash have the edge over Bisu that they are still in MSL, but as I've said before, we all knew that one of those 3 could not survive that group.
Worth noting: Bisu is now just 30 ELO points behind Flash. JD is 41 points behind Bisu. JD is 38 points ahead of #4, Hydra.
***Big Gap***
By ELO, all names over 2200:
Hydra: 6-1 since last ranking, although only 7-6 in May. No doubt that Hydra has been tearing it up lately and for the second season in a row has made Ro4 or better in MSL. This kid is the real deal, but he really needs a strong showing against Flash (not necessarily a win, but at the least push Flash to the limit) to cement his reputation.
Fantasy: 2-2 since last ranking, 5-4 in May. Combined with his shoddy record in April (2-4) it's not hard to see why he was only CBNC on the last ranking. Admittedly, his record hasn't entirely been doing him justice. He's still the same guy who took Flash to the brink in BigFile MSL and then won OSL over Stork the following season, but with Fanta it always seems like the moment he is ready to apply pressure Flash's dominance he suddenly drops a level. It happened in December when he was on a roaring rampage double digit win streak and then suddenly crashed and it happened again in March when he tore it up to secure #1 KeSPA and then proceeded to lose it the very next month. Fantasy really needs to get his act together to secure his position.
Soulkey: 5-1 since last ranking, 8-2 in May. Just to fill in more, 12-4 since April 1. Soulkey has just been so strong lately. When he first burst out onto the scene I was tremendously impressed by him, but with repeated months of getting rolled game after game I gradually stopped thinking of him as a top player. Well he is.
Other names from PR:
Movie: ELO peaking at 2196, get this: Movie is 7-3 in his last 10 vT and 8-2 in his last 10 vZ. After going on a rampage back in February, Movie started losing steam in March. Since then he had few appearances until recently. Movie is 8-1 since April 1 with his only loss to Flash. To be thoroughly honest, there's a part of me who feels like the leader back at CJ house right now is not tournament star Hydra or veteran ace Leta, but this man.
Zero: Give credit where credit is due. I did not think he would win that Bo5 over Calm. But he did. And because of that he has now made his 3rd semi. Unfortunately his road is ending here against Jaedong, but I must say that I'm impressed that he's been doing so well despite having to ZvZ so often. 9-5 since May 1, #8 by ELO, behind only those listed above.
Mind: I feel bad for Rommel. I really do. For the first time since 2008 he was showing us that he is a name to be reckoned with. And then he ran into a blue Hydra wave (e-cookie to anyone who knows that reference) and got obliterated. Only 2-6 since our last ranking, dropping 43 ELO points. Youch. But record can be misleading. I do think he's easily top 15 in the world right now, maybe even top 10.
Leta: #18 by ELO. I liked having Leta in the last ranking because he pulled some spectacular shit. How he survived his group stage when twice he got ling rushed after going 14 CC I have no idea but he did, and then he took down Soulkey to face Flash. But even though he's gone 4-3 since the last ranking, I'm tempted to drop him to CBNC territory. I don't feel like he's done anything spectacular since the last ranking and I have concerns over his current condition, especially regarding TvP.
Iris: 1-2 since last ranking. To be thoroughly honest, there is no doubt in my mind that Iris was ranked too high last month. There's a bit of danger to seeing someone rack up a few wins and then automatically jumping on the bandwagon on the spot. Iris has strong TvZ right now. Very. Very. Very strong. Not surprising considering his history. But I would not consider him even top 10 TvT and his TvP seriously blows. As in it makes Light look like Flash level of blows. CBNC would have been ideal last month.
Not ranked last month:
Light: 4-1 since last ranking (2-1 vP!!!!). Light has shown some sloppiness recently in his TvZ, but his TvP seems to be improving. Light is #9 by ELO and my feeling is that he's a an easily overlooked player right now. Transitioning to a new team is usually very hard for a player but Light has adapted easily and perhaps even grown.
Horang2: I can only argue with results for so long. Horang2's play is a little rough around the edges and he's been posting a weak record against a weak line-up in PvT. But that said, Horang2 is now 16-6 since March 1. Although the caliber of competition is lower, that's a higher win percentage than Flash, JD or Bisu with almost as many games played as Bisu. This kid needs a rank. Not a CBNC, a rank.
FBH: 4-1 since the last rank. Also really needs a rank. Also, it's hard to believe, but FBH is now 17-8 since March 1. ASDF wut?
Watch list:
Soo: It was pointed out that Soo went 5-0 during the last ranking period. But considering his record until then, I don't see why it's such a surprise he wasn't mentioned. A player in his position needs to do a lot to prove himself. But I've got an eye on him.
Baby: Not PR or CBNC worthy this go round, but still ranked #10 by ELO.
Bogus: If you could TvT for shit then maybe you would be PR worthy. But you can't and your TvZ and TvP are good but not *that* good so it's a moot point.
Stork: 2-3 since last rank against mediocre competition keeps you out of PR range. But you're still a part of TBLS. Dinotoss could easily bound back and secure his legend with yet another silver! :p
No, Just NO:
Grape: It's impressive that he climbed as far as he did, but his record does not support a ranking or even CBNC mention.
CBNC: Fanta, Mind, possibly Stork if he shows signs of getting his act together.
Potential changes: -My 1-2-3 order is by no means definitive. Especially the Jaedong-Bisu part. I just think Bisu is showing fewer holes in his game right now, hence I gave him the nod.
-Hydra could potentially cut his way into the top 3 with a win over Flash. Or if Zero somehow topples Jaedong and Hydra at least gives Flash a fight. So even though I consider there to be a big gap between top 3 and #4, it's not insurmountable. I don't see Zero entering the top 3 unless he 3-0's Jaedong and I just don't see that happening. I give Zero less than 10 percent odds of even winning this.
-Movie's ranking and Soulkey's are highly influenced by PL right now so Zero could definitely surpass them with a strong showing against JD.
-The bottom 3 are fairly well locked in unless something big happens with one of the guys in CBNC. I do not see any of them moving up but it's not totally outside the realm of possibility.
On May 23 2011 13:31 Mortality wrote: Fantasy: 2-2 since last ranking, 5-4 in May. Combined with his shoddy record in April (2-4) it's not hard to see why he was only CBNC on the last ranking. Admittedly, his record hasn't entirely been doing him justice. He's still the same guy who took Flash to the brink in BigFile MSL and then won OSL over Stork the following season, but with Fanta it always seems like the moment he is ready to apply pressure Flash's dominance he suddenly drops a level. It happened in December when he was on a roaring rampage double digit win streak and then suddenly crashed and it happened again in March when he tore it up to secure #1 KeSPA and then proceeded to lose it the very next month. Fantasy really needs to get his act together to secure his position.
The day Fantasy becomes consistent is the day he successfully uses bio
On a side note, just like how BeSt got a shout-out for beating Flash. Hoejja should get one for beating Stork
1-6 are agreeable (I would switch SK and hydra but they're close enough it doesn't matter).
Horang2 should be higher, I put him ahead of zero. If zero does well vs jaedong, than he can be moved up but he has an ok record vs ok opponents (and a very nice game vs bisu if you count that far back). But horang has played against a ridiculous schedule, and has a better record doing it.
And I don't like light on there. Yea, he has won 5 in a row, but it is probably the weakest 5 players anyone has faced this month. I would instead go with leta. Sure, he got stomped by flash, but on the other hand, he only got stomped by flash.
so: flash bisu JD (he is kind of here because of what I think he will do, if he has more than 1 loss the rest of the month, I think I'll want him lower.) SK hydra movie (could easily switch with horang depending on their final games) horang zero FBH leta
Flash never had a #1 curse last year... granted I don't really think he has bonjwa immunity anymore, but I personally consider him the best player in the world right now.
On May 24 2011 01:55 Mortality wrote: Flash never had a #1 curse last year... granted I don't really think he has bonjwa immunity anymore, but I personally consider him the best player in the world right now.
There is currently a curse on the heads of those put on #1 of Flamewheel's Power Rank
Really, at this point the only thing Flash has on Bisu is his placement in MSL. Other than that, in every way they're almost identical. Jaedong has been losing a little force, still far above the next best player though.
On May 24 2011 07:26 Lightwip wrote: Really, at this point the only thing Flash has on Bisu is his placement in MSL. Other than that, in every way they're almost identical. Jaedong has been losing a little force, still far above the next best player though.
That's the worst excuse. "The only thing Flash has over Bisu is that he is winning games in tournaments!!!" That's quite the difference, especially when he is in the tournament entirely because he 2-0'd Bisu. I'm sure Bisu would care more about getting a fourth MSL than just being great in PL.
Well to be fair, and I'm not saying this simply because I'm a Bisu-fanboy because I agree that Flash is above him, but I think most people can agree that if Bisu played Jaedong first up instead he would have been advancing.
#1 - #3 are really close. Statistically comparable for 3 months is no small thing. We have to go back to the start of the year before we really see any major difference: Flash 42-12 (78%) Bisu 43-16 (73%) Jaedong 41-21 (66%)
I think Flash is still clearly #1. Lately he occasionally shows us holes, occasionally does not live up to the standards he was setting last year, but then he turns around and decimates.
Bisu, unlike Flash, maybe has a little something to prove in order to show he is on Flash's level. Statistically he's comparable, trailing only a little behind. The big difference is that his PvP shows more weakness compared to Flash who doesn't really have a weak match (yes, I know that Flash has been dropping some random games to P lately, but if you're going to try to infer a real weakness there then what does that say about Bisu's losses in MSL?).
Jaedong started off the year poorly and gradually picked up steam. But now it seems like he's lost some. Or maybe it's just La Mancha where he has lost 4 of his last 5 games. Anyway, Jaedong should not be counted out of this as he proved in April. Ironically, in an interview JD said that April was bad for him.
On May 24 2011 10:47 Dakkas wrote: Well to be fair, and I'm not saying this simply because I'm a Bisu-fanboy because I agree that Flash is above him, but I think most people can agree that if Bisu played Jaedong first up instead he would have been advancing.
If Bisu played Jaedong first, he probably (call it 70%) would have won that game.
Then he would have played the winner of Flash vs Sea, which would 99% have been Flash (8-0 vs Sea lifetime).
The chances are fairly good he loses that game (anyone who considers the Aztec win anything but a BO/map win - albeit a perfect one - is smoking something).
So assuming Sea then lost to Jaedong to go 0-2 (2-5 lifetime), we get a 2nd Jaedong vs Bisu match as the finisher. Now it's true that Bisu has done very well against Jaedong overall and especially recently. It's also true that the final map was Dante's Peak which (so far, stat-wise at least) is a heavily Z >>> P map. So I put Bisu at a maximum 60/40 advantage there.
Then you realize that Jaedong has only lost in MSL group stages twice - his first time out, against sAviOr and Pusan, and then most recently to a group of Hwasin/firebathero/Flash (in 2009).
In stark comparison, Bisu makes a habit of faceplanting in group stages.
Am I saying Bisu couldn't have advanced? No. But I give the mental edge to JD in a huge way... and the mental edge is huge.
But let's assume that Bisu advances over Jaedong. Let's even assume he beats both Reality and Grape (more of a question, since Grape knocked out Horang2's PvP) soundly and is now in the Ro4.
In that case we have Flash advancing 2-0, beating Really, and wrecking Leta, and Bisu advancing 2-1 (with a loss to Flash) and beating Reality and Grape. Now Really is a mediocre player, but his TvT is often excellent; Leta's not on the top of his form, but he's a solid A class player at least (usually) and TvT is also (usually) his best MU. On the other hand, Reality and Grape are just good (and surprising) rookies.
In conclusion: if we take your hypothetical and run with it, all other things being equal... Flash still has the better resume at the end of this month.
Flash would have had a better MSL run in the hypothetical scenario, but Bisu played quality opponents in proleauge, such as baby, bogus and jaedong. The best people Flash played were hydra (who may not count as "this month" depending on when you start counting) shine and really. So The gap between their respective proleauge schedules would have been bigger than their respective MSL schedules IMO.
Disclaimer: the gap is not big enough to ignore flash's wins vs leta and really in reality, so I think Flash should be 1.
On May 24 2011 10:47 Dakkas wrote: Well to be fair, and I'm not saying this simply because I'm a Bisu-fanboy because I agree that Flash is above him, but I think most people can agree that if Bisu played Jaedong first up instead he would have been advancing.
If Bisu played Jaedong first, he probably (call it 70%) would have won that game.
Then he would have played the winner of Flash vs Sea, which would 99% have been Flash (8-0 vs Sea lifetime).
The chances are fairly good he loses that game (anyone who considers the Aztec win anything but a BO/map win - albeit a perfect one - is smoking something).
So assuming Sea then lost to Jaedong to go 0-2 (2-5 lifetime), we get a 2nd Jaedong vs Bisu match as the finisher. Now it's true that Bisu has done very well against Jaedong overall and especially recently. It's also true that the final map was Dante's Peak which (so far, stat-wise at least) is a heavily Z >>> P map. So I put Bisu at a maximum 60/40 advantage there.
Then you realize that Jaedong has only lost in MSL group stages twice - his first time out, against sAviOr and Pusan, and then most recently to a group of Hwasin/firebathero/Flash (in 2009).
In stark comparison, Bisu makes a habit of faceplanting in group stages.
Am I saying Bisu couldn't have advanced? No. But I give the mental edge to JD in a huge way... and the mental edge is huge.
But let's assume that Bisu advances over Jaedong. Let's even assume he beats both Reality and Grape (more of a question, since Grape knocked out Horang2's PvP) soundly and is now in the Ro4.
In that case we have Flash advancing 2-0, beating Really, and wrecking Leta, and Bisu advancing 2-1 (with a loss to Flash) and beating Reality and Grape. Now Really is a mediocre player, but his TvT is often excellent; Leta's not on the top of his form, but he's a solid A class player at least (usually) and TvT is also (usually) his best MU. On the other hand, Reality and Grape are just good (and surprising) rookies.
In conclusion: if we take your hypothetical and run with it, all other things being equal... Flash still has the better resume at the end of this month.
Where did I ever say Bisu have a better month than Flash? I even flat out stated that Flash is above Bisu? So to be honest, was this just an excuse to post a wall of text or something?
On May 24 2011 07:26 Lightwip wrote: Really, at this point the only thing Flash has on Bisu is his placement in MSL. Other than that, in every way they're almost identical. Jaedong has been losing a little force, still far above the next best player though.
That's the worst excuse. "The only thing Flash has over Bisu is that he is winning games in tournaments!!!" That's quite the difference, especially when he is in the tournament entirely because he 2-0'd Bisu. I'm sure Bisu would care more about getting a fourth MSL than just being great in PL.
Wait what? I note that Flash has an advantage over Bisu because he's in the MSL and Flash fans jump to assume that I think Bisu belongs above him? Where in my post did I even say that Bisu should be placed above Flash?
MSL reorganizes the bracket based on KeSPA ranking at the start of the bo5 phase. So in this hypothetical scenario where Jaedong has been eliminated, Flash is the highest KeSPA ranked. Therefore Flash faces Grape in Ro8 regardless of who advances 2-0 or 2-1 from Group D. Hydra would be #2 ranked with Bisu at #3. So Hydra would face Flash's actual opponent, Leta, and Bisu would face Hydra's actual opponent Mind.
...So actually, under this hypothetical scenario I'd say that Bisu would have had a harder month than Flash.
However, all this said, it's a moot point because Bisu didn't advance. Although I do find it likely that Bisu would have advanced if he faced JD or Sea in his first match instead of Flash,, but I suppose it's foolishness to count JD out wherever individual leagues are concerned.
On May 24 2011 07:26 Lightwip wrote: Really, at this point the only thing Flash has on Bisu is his placement in MSL. Other than that, in every way they're almost identical. Jaedong has been losing a little force, still far above the next best player though.
That's the worst excuse. "The only thing Flash has over Bisu is that he is winning games in tournaments!!!" That's quite the difference, especially when he is in the tournament entirely because he 2-0'd Bisu. I'm sure Bisu would care more about getting a fourth MSL than just being great in PL.
Wait what? I note that Flash has an advantage over Bisu because he's in the MSL and Flash fans jump to assume that I think Bisu belongs above him? Where in my post did I even say that Bisu should be placed above Flash?
Your every post comes off like its belittling flash because you always do, sorry if I jumped to a conclusion, but it's not like there isn't heaps and mounds and piles of precedence.
On May 24 2011 10:47 Dakkas wrote: Well to be fair, and I'm not saying this simply because I'm a Bisu-fanboy because I agree that Flash is above him, but I think most people can agree that if Bisu played Jaedong first up instead he would have been advancing.
If Bisu played Jaedong first, he probably (call it 70%) would have won that game.
Then he would have played the winner of Flash vs Sea, which would 99% have been Flash (8-0 vs Sea lifetime).
The chances are fairly good he loses that game (anyone who considers the Aztec win anything but a BO/map win - albeit a perfect one - is smoking something).
So assuming Sea then lost to Jaedong to go 0-2 (2-5 lifetime), we get a 2nd Jaedong vs Bisu match as the finisher. Now it's true that Bisu has done very well against Jaedong overall and especially recently. It's also true that the final map was Dante's Peak which (so far, stat-wise at least) is a heavily Z >>> P map. So I put Bisu at a maximum 60/40 advantage there.
Then you realize that Jaedong has only lost in MSL group stages twice - his first time out, against sAviOr and Pusan, and then most recently to a group of Hwasin/firebathero/Flash (in 2009).
In stark comparison, Bisu makes a habit of faceplanting in group stages.
Am I saying Bisu couldn't have advanced? No. But I give the mental edge to JD in a huge way... and the mental edge is huge.
But let's assume that Bisu advances over Jaedong. Let's even assume he beats both Reality and Grape (more of a question, since Grape knocked out Horang2's PvP) soundly and is now in the Ro4.
In that case we have Flash advancing 2-0, beating Really, and wrecking Leta, and Bisu advancing 2-1 (with a loss to Flash) and beating Reality and Grape. Now Really is a mediocre player, but his TvT is often excellent; Leta's not on the top of his form, but he's a solid A class player at least (usually) and TvT is also (usually) his best MU. On the other hand, Reality and Grape are just good (and surprising) rookies.
In conclusion: if we take your hypothetical and run with it, all other things being equal... Flash still has the better resume at the end of this month.
Where did I ever say Bisu have a better month than Flash? I even flat out stated that Flash is above Bisu? So to be honest, was this just an excuse to post a wall of text or something?
As much as I adore walls of text... no, I just missed you said that. Also I kind of got sidetracked, the post was originally just meant to show that Bisu might not "probably" have advanced given JD's/Bisu's respective starleague showings, maps, etc.
Edit: And of course Mortality points out the spanner in the works... for some reason I was thinking JD/Bisu were #2 & #3 and that wouldn't change anything but I forgot about how KeSPA does things.
MSL reorganizes the bracket based on KeSPA ranking at the start of the bo5 phase. So in this hypothetical scenario where Jaedong has been eliminated, Flash is the highest KeSPA ranked. Therefore Flash faces Grape in Ro8 regardless of who advances 2-0 or 2-1 from Group D. Hydra would be #2 ranked with Bisu at #3. So Hydra would face Flash's actual opponent, Leta, and Bisu would face Hydra's actual opponent Mind.
...So actually, under this hypothetical scenario I'd say that Bisu would have had a harder month than Flash.
However, all this said, it's a moot point because Bisu didn't advance. Although I do find it likely that Bisu would have advanced if he faced JD or Sea in his first match instead of Flash,, but I suppose it's foolishness to count JD out wherever individual leagues are concerned.
I try to be. Otherwise I'd qualify for village idiot, methinks.
Edit:
On May 25 2011 02:14 Caladbolg wrote: Random question for anyone: If Hydra defeated Flash 3-2 and JD defeated Zero 3-0, would Hydra be ranked ahead of JD?
When I wrote my last post I didn't realize so few games were left. Basically it looks to me like the positions are all pretty much a lock except for JD and Zero.
On May 25 2011 02:14 Caladbolg wrote: Random question for anyone: If Hydra defeated Flash 3-2 and JD defeated Zero 3-0, would Hydra be ranked ahead of JD?
When I wrote my last post I didn't realize so few games were left. Basically it looks to me like the positions are all pretty much a lock except for JD and Zero.
I'm pretty sure that flamewheel will wait for both semi-finals to be finished before posting the rank. It's only one day and a very understandable reason to delay it a bit.
^ I don't understand people who retrospectively complain about PR. There wasn't even a discussion last month about wheather Jaedong should have been #1 or not.
What is really strange is that he said in an interview that he felt he played badly in april...
LOL. ggaemo has not been hot lately at all. Yeah he plays okay but in the end he always loses. If you're going to put someone with a losing record at #10 let it be Fanta or Stork. Seriously.
On May 25 2011 02:14 Caladbolg wrote: Random question for anyone: If Hydra defeated Flash 3-2 and JD defeated Zero 3-0, would Hydra be ranked ahead of JD?
When I wrote my last post I didn't realize so few games were left. Basically it looks to me like the positions are all pretty much a lock except for JD and Zero.
Ideally he'd wait for the semis to end. But how much damage would a 3-0, 3-1, 3-2 loss for Flash do to his ranking, respectively? Similar q for Jaedong. I'm wondering if next month's top 3 would be as uncontroversial as last month (disregarding the hierarchy between the top 3).
EDIT: As I ask this, I do keep in mind that even a 0-3 loss might not hurt the ranking too much if the games were amazingly close. This is in the assumption of course, that the loss corresponds to the score (3-0 is a blowout, 3-1 wasn't close, and 3-2 was a close loss).
If Hydra 3-0'd Flash, which I doubt, then he'd deserve a top 3 position, upsetting the applecart completely. Even simply winning over Flash would tempt me to bump him up. Last season Hydra proved his ZvZ, a strong showing vs Flash would prove his ZvT, and statistically ZvP is his strongest match.
If Jaedong loses to Zero and Hydra even comes close to advancing then I'd be tempted to switch them. May has been a rough month for JD, although the problem for JD really has been concentrated on La Mancha. Also, Zero's ranking would go up with a win over the dong, or even a close result. Beating a Clamish Calm is one thing, but overcoming JvZ is another entirely.
On May 26 2011 00:11 Holgerius wrote: Lol, if Hydra 3-0's Flash I'd place him at #1 no questions asked.
Yeah lol. Prove that his ZvT is strong? wth he has done that, his series vs Mind was a work of art (the day 2 one). Happy to see Flash on top of it. Oh and please a shoutout to Hoejja, his game vs stork was sick man :D
On May 25 2011 10:55 Phradamon wrote: I am a fan of Jaedong and i love to see how Flash destroys everyone but this month Bisu should have been number one.
I never seen JD so shaky on ZvP; losing to Horang. Damn...
On May 26 2011 00:11 Holgerius wrote: Lol, if Hydra 3-0's Flash I'd place him at #1 no questions asked.
Yeah lol. Prove that his ZvT is strong? wth he has done that, his series vs Mind was a work of art (the day 2 one). Happy to see Flash on top of it. Oh and please a shoutout to Hoejja, his game vs stork was sick man :D
Strong is not the same as S-class though. Right now Hydra's reputation is as the 3rd best ZvTer in the world. He is also right now 3rd best ZvTer by ELO (but that's 2133 points, peak of 2149... not even close to 2200, which is the kind of number I'd like to see out of S-class).
As far as I'm concerned, 3rd best can mean S-class if you are still dominating all your opponents (e.g. there was a time when Nada, Boxer, Oov, and Midas were all favored against ANY Zerg not named Savior), but in this case Hydra needs to prove that.
I like Mind and I think he's good, but Mind is not even top 10 TvZ ELO right now. His peak is only 2106 (May 8), which means he could not possibly have been higher than #8 in the world by ELO at the time of his peak.
No, I don't think anyone really would call Hydra s-class in any mu yet. But the cool thing with him is that he seems to be playing a lot better in SLs than in PL - so he may be able to give Flash atleast a run for his money. His series against Mind to me looked very very solid.
I have to say that I would be more scarred for Hydra than Flash right now in a final vs Jaedong. But that has something to do also with Hydra beating Jaedong last season and zvz being unpredictable.
I think at this point the top three DOES look pretty set, but there are definitely a few situations that could throw a wrench in things. The most obvious and simple is if JD bombs out of the MSL. Drop him down, no big deal. Another is if he just squeaks by Zero and Hydra performs well against Flash, that could bring 3/4 into question.
Imo the most problematic(and the biggest longshot, but still theoretcially possible), though, would be if JD 3-0s Zero and Flash gets ruined by Hydra. I think at that point you would be put in this position where you wouldn't know who the hell to put in first place. Perhaps more aptly, you'd have three players who should be in second.
I mean, who gets first? JD? You'd practically have to ignore his PL performance. Flash? I don't think you can get upset in a semifinal and be #1 PR in the same day(though keep in mind this is in the case of a bad loss, not Hydra getting some lucky game 5 cheese or something). Bisu? Come on now, doing well in PL is only half of the game, and it's not like he went 12-0 or anything anyways.
I dunno why I'm going on about this given how unlikely a scenario it is, but I think it would be rather interesting to see how things fell if that DID happen.
Personally I'd love to see things get mixed up with Zero > JD and Hydra > Flash, even if that means a ZvZ final. But really, that's got close to zero chance of happening.
I'm disappointed by JD's lack of JD-ness and I'm disappointed that we won't see a JvF fight for the 6th Starleague title/Golden Badge. I really wanted that.
BUT!
I'm super happy for Zero. It's been quite upsetting to see all these other Zergs (Effort, Clam, Luxury, Hydra, Kwanro, Great) reach finals while Zero has been held back by his ZvZ, despite his enourmous skill and creativity. Not anymore. :D As long as Flash makes it to the final it should be really epic and great. Zero is a worthy opponent, and I wouldn't be bitter at all if he actually won it.
k, this is how i would have it. i'm assuming a flash>hydra series win, if not, bump flash down to three, if he takes it something like 3-2 but looks bad in the process, drop him to 2
1 Flash 2 Bisu 3 Zero 4 Hydra 5 Jaedong 6 Soulkey 7 Movie 8 Horang2 9 FBH 10 idk, Leta? Only lost to Flash since last time out but that's a big chunk of his games
On May 26 2011 20:18 L0thar wrote: JD had a terrible month, I wouldn't even put him into top 3 right now...
Flash, Bisu, Zero, they all should be in front of him...maybe even Hydra; definitely if he win against Flash.
If Hydra plays well against Flash I'd say Jaedong #5, at best (assuming Flamewheel waits a day for that match to play out before making the PR). Maybe SoulKey should be ahead of him as well.
I wouldn't put Bisu that high either. Yeah, he is doing pretty well in PL, but he (again) has no individual leagues to back it up. I'd put both Flash and Zero ahead of him, no matter what, and possibly even Hydra, if he beat Flash.
On May 26 2011 22:05 L0thar wrote: I wouldn't put Bisu that high either. Yeah, he is doing pretty well in PL, but he (again) has no individual leagues to back it up
so by that rationale we should have grape > bisu as he won a game in the msl this month, amirite? only 1 loss since the last list and that is excusable as it's against the best PvP player in the world so he'd expect to lose it. can't do any more than the games he's played.
Sorry, but If you can't tell the difference between "being MSL finalist" and "won a game, still get eliminated form the MSL" by yourself, I probably won't be able to explain it either way.
Not sure I want to see Zero above the Dong even with this win. But Dong really has had a terrible month. 6-8 since last PR with elimination in his statistically best match-up by a player historically weak in it.
By ELO, Zero is now #6. Jaedong is still #3, but if Hydra can pull a win over Flash at all then he will surpass JD. If Hydra loses 2-3 to Flash it will be very, very close.
I'm in favor of moving down JD a lot. There is a growing list of people I don't think he can beat in a Bo5: Flash, Bisu, zero, hydra, and maybe SK. I think he should be ranked 6th behind all of them (in that order). He flat out looked bad this month.
On May 26 2011 22:51 Mortality wrote: Not sure I want to see Zero above the Dong even with this win. But Dong really has had a terrible month. 6-8 since last PR with elimination in his statistically best match-up by a player historically weak in it.
By ELO, Zero is now #6. Jaedong is still #3, but if Hydra can pull a win over Flash at all then he will surpass JD. If Hydra loses 2-3 to Flash it will be very, very close.
I wouldn't call Jaedong's vZ his best these days, at least not in the last 6 - 7 months. It not being up-to-snuff has caused of him to lose two MSL semi-finals, and he also got knocked out of the last OSL partially due to an awful ZvZ against Hogil. And I don't think anyone would argue that his vT is essentially his only match-up where he still looks consistently like his old self.
I don't know why he can't seem to translate his general ZvZ dominance to Bo5. According to Liquipedia, he's 3 - 1 in ZvZ Bo5 through 2010; this brings him to 3 - 3 through 2011. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Bo3 - he's 20 - 3 in ZvZ Bo3 through 2010 - but it just seems like his opponents rise to the occasion when facing him in Bo5, and he... doesn't.
On May 26 2011 22:37 L0thar wrote: Sorry, but If you can't tell the difference between "being MSL finalist" and "won a game, still get eliminated form the MSL" by yourself, I probably won't be able to explain it either way.
You can explain it by being in a group with the 2 best players in the world. Not getting further into the MSL is not a negative on Bisu's list because it's entirely possible Flash or Jaedong couldn't have got through
Bisu in last years proved that he has problems getting from group stages in general, not just when paired with Flash or JD. He didn't *play* (much less win) a BO5 in ages.
I seriously can't believe I have to argue for MSL finalists being ahead from someone who got eliminated from group stages (like times and times before).
Top spots of PR are reserved for players who have great PL *and* individual leagues performance (if there are some). Bisu position last month is defendable, because he was crucial player in Winners League finals and that's gotta count for something. But this month he has done nothing special.
Just go and check Flash and Zero performance in PL. Flash is undefeated since last PR and Zero actually head on beat Bisu in their last (less than month old) match. Why on Earth would anybody put Bisu ahead of these two is completely beyond me.
On May 27 2011 01:35 L0thar wrote: Bisu in last years proved that he has problems getting from group stages in general, not just when paired with Flash or JD. He didn't *play* (much less win) a BO5 in ages.
I seriously can't believe I have to argue for MSL finalists being ahead from someone who got eliminated from group stages (like times and times before).
Top spots of PR are reserved for players who have great PL *and* individual leagues performance (if there are some). Bisu position last month is defendable, because he was crucial player in Winners League finals and that's gotta count for something. But this month he has done nothing special.
Just go and check Flash and Zero performance in PL. Flash is undefeated since last PR and Zero actually head on beat Bisu in their last (less than month old) match. Why on Earth would anybody put Bisu ahead of these two is completely beyond me.
Bisu was busy slumping hardcore so saying that he didnt do anything last year is pointless since the bisu of this year is completely different from the bisu of last year. i would think that bisu would be favored in a bo5 against zero but it would probably be close.
Also the only reason bisu is not in this zerg msl is because of flash. This is the first starleague since he has recovered his form and i think he would have gone far if he didnt meet flash
That's entirely possible and I'd personaly love to see Bisu PvZ in later stages of some tournament. One of the most beautiful match ups, it's a shame he was forced to double PvT with Flash.
However he did meat Flash and he was eliminated. Speculation about what would happen if he didn't are pointless. At the end of the day, there are people in MSL finals and people who has to settle for PL.
Bisu ranking should not be based on some imaginary wins in MSL which he doesn't have.
On May 26 2011 22:37 L0thar wrote: Sorry, but If you can't tell the difference between "being MSL finalist" and "won a game, still get eliminated form the MSL" by yourself, I probably won't be able to explain it either way.
You can explain it by being in a group with the 2 best players in the world. Not getting further into the MSL is not a negative on Bisu's list because it's entirely possible Flash or Jaedong couldn't have got through
Wait, so you are saying that since Flash and Jaedong could have theoretically lost to Bisu they should be below him?
In all fairness, Bisu isnt an MSL finalist or semifinalist. So Im hesitant to put him as #1 or above the others. But him getting knocked down isnt anything against his skill (we all know, or would assume, that Bisu could have gotten very far this MSL if it wasnt for the Group of Death).
On May 26 2011 22:51 Mortality wrote: Not sure I want to see Zero above the Dong even with this win. But Dong really has had a terrible month. 6-8 since last PR with elimination in his statistically best match-up by a player historically weak in it.
By ELO, Zero is now #6. Jaedong is still #3, but if Hydra can pull a win over Flash at all then he will surpass JD. If Hydra loses 2-3 to Flash it will be very, very close.
I wouldn't call Jaedong's vZ his best these days, at least not in the last 6 - 7 months. It not being up-to-snuff has caused of him to lose two MSL semi-finals, and he also got knocked out of the last OSL partially due to an awful ZvZ against Hogil. And I don't think anyone would argue that his vT is essentially his only match-up where he still looks consistently like his old self.
I don't know why he can't seem to translate his general ZvZ dominance to Bo5. According to Liquipedia, he's 3 - 1 in ZvZ Bo5 through 2010; this brings him to 3 - 3 through 2011. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Bo3 - he's 20 - 3 in ZvZ Bo3 through 2010 - but it just seems like his opponents rise to the occasion when facing him in Bo5, and he... doesn't.
I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail. His loss to Calm I understood: it was Calm playing incredibly smart SC and winning the battle of preparation. His loss to Hydra I sort of understood: last season was really bad for JD and Hydra demonstrated first rate control and understanding of timings. I have not seen the series against Zero yet but... to say this was an unexpected result is an understatement.
On May 27 2011 01:35 L0thar wrote: Bisu in last years proved that he has problems getting from group stages in general, not just when paired with Flash or JD. He didn't *play* (much less win) a BO5 in ages.
I seriously can't believe I have to argue for MSL finalists being ahead from someone who got eliminated from group stages (like times and times before).
Top spots of PR are reserved for players who have great PL *and* individual leagues performance (if there are some). Bisu position last month is defendable, because he was crucial player in Winners League finals and that's gotta count for something. But this month he has done nothing special.
Just go and check Flash and Zero performance in PL. Flash is undefeated since last PR and Zero actually head on beat Bisu in their last (less than month old) match. Why on Earth would anybody put Bisu ahead of these two is completely beyond me.
Bisu was busy slumping hardcore so saying that he didnt do anything last year is pointless since the bisu of this year is completely different from the bisu of last year. i would think that bisu would be favored in a bo5 against zero but it would probably be close.
Also the only reason bisu is not in this zerg msl is because of flash. This is the first starleague since he has recovered his form and i think he would have gone far if he didnt meet flash
Zero happens to be exceptionally strong against Bisu, 4-3 lifetime with solid wins. Zero plays very smart SC and he doesn't allow Bisu to spread him out the same way other Zergs do. This means that I would not be so quick to favor Bisu over Zero, but it also means that ranking Zero ahead of Bisu on the grounds of winning a bo1 is even more silly than usual.
The same arguments that put Flash in #1 while he was out of SL last season argue that Bisu should be #2 right now behind only Flash who is posting comparable PL results at the moment and doing better in SL. That is my thought.
Zero... I love his smart play and I love that he's finally in a finals and I hope he wins. BUT... I'm hesitant to put him in the top 2 when his play is so erratic. On his best days, yeah, fucking hell, he's S-class no questions asked (at least in ZvT and ZvP). On his worst days... well...
In times like these I feel confident in my choice of preferring the ELO as my primary skill measurement instead of a few select people`s subjective opinions.
On May 26 2011 22:51 Mortality wrote: Not sure I want to see Zero above the Dong even with this win. But Dong really has had a terrible month. 6-8 since last PR with elimination in his statistically best match-up by a player historically weak in it.
By ELO, Zero is now #6. Jaedong is still #3, but if Hydra can pull a win over Flash at all then he will surpass JD. If Hydra loses 2-3 to Flash it will be very, very close.
I wouldn't call Jaedong's vZ his best these days, at least not in the last 6 - 7 months. It not being up-to-snuff has caused of him to lose two MSL semi-finals, and he also got knocked out of the last OSL partially due to an awful ZvZ against Hogil. And I don't think anyone would argue that his vT is essentially his only match-up where he still looks consistently like his old self.
I don't know why he can't seem to translate his general ZvZ dominance to Bo5. According to Liquipedia, he's 3 - 1 in ZvZ Bo5 through 2010; this brings him to 3 - 3 through 2011. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Bo3 - he's 20 - 3 in ZvZ Bo3 through 2010 - but it just seems like his opponents rise to the occasion when facing him in Bo5, and he... doesn't.
I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail. His loss to Calm I understood: it was Calm playing incredibly smart SC and winning the battle of preparation. His loss to Hydra I sort of understood: last season was really bad for JD and Hydra demonstrated first rate control and understanding of timings. I have not seen the series against Zero yet but... to say this was an unexpected result is an understatement.
On May 27 2011 01:35 L0thar wrote: Bisu in last years proved that he has problems getting from group stages in general, not just when paired with Flash or JD. He didn't *play* (much less win) a BO5 in ages.
I seriously can't believe I have to argue for MSL finalists being ahead from someone who got eliminated from group stages (like times and times before).
Top spots of PR are reserved for players who have great PL *and* individual leagues performance (if there are some). Bisu position last month is defendable, because he was crucial player in Winners League finals and that's gotta count for something. But this month he has done nothing special.
Just go and check Flash and Zero performance in PL. Flash is undefeated since last PR and Zero actually head on beat Bisu in their last (less than month old) match. Why on Earth would anybody put Bisu ahead of these two is completely beyond me.
Bisu was busy slumping hardcore so saying that he didnt do anything last year is pointless since the bisu of this year is completely different from the bisu of last year. i would think that bisu would be favored in a bo5 against zero but it would probably be close.
Also the only reason bisu is not in this zerg msl is because of flash. This is the first starleague since he has recovered his form and i think he would have gone far if he didnt meet flash
Zero happens to be exceptionally strong against Bisu, 4-3 lifetime with solid wins. Zero plays very smart SC and he doesn't allow Bisu to spread him out the same way other Zergs do. This means that I would not be so quick to favor Bisu over Zero, but it also means that ranking Zero ahead of Bisu on the grounds of winning a bo1 is even more silly than usual.
The same arguments that put Flash in #1 while he was out of SL last season argue that Bisu should be #2 right now behind only Flash who is posting comparable PL results at the moment and doing better in SL. That is my thought.
Zero... I love his smart play and I love that he's finally in a finals and I hope he wins. BUT... I'm hesitant to put him in the top 2 when his play is so erratic. On his best days, yeah, fucking hell, he's S-class no questions asked (at least in ZvT and ZvP). On his worst days... well...
idk man, if Zero wins the MSL, I think he deserves #1 PR.
That's just my opinion though. Taking out Jaedong in Zero's weakest matchup.... and then taking down Flash/Hydra... that's really impressive.
Note that the last PR was made 5/9/11, so the Zero-Bisu game was LAST month, not this one. This month Zero is 8-4, but 3 of those losses are in MSL series that he won anyway. And he's played almost exclusively ZvZ which is classically his weakest matchup
Zero deserves no.1 at this rate. He just beat the no.2/no.1 ZvZ in the world (which is his worst MU) and he could very easily take the MSL at this point.
(Lets not forget, Zero is like the 1st zerg to beat Bisu in a macro game in months)
Dude is phenomenal. Unless, he gets demolished in the MSL finals I don't see how you could justify him not being up there
On May 27 2011 07:31 flamewheel wrote: Silence of the lambs.
i don't even...
other pertinent questions: will mind, soulkey, movie, horang2, leta??? fill the lower reaches of PR? or fbh / iris? or even best (omg best... and jangbi... and hoejja... are winning games o_O)?
On May 27 2011 01:57 L0thar wrote: That's entirely possible and I'd personaly love to see Bisu PvZ in later stages of some tournament. One of the most beautiful match ups, it's a shame he was forced to double PvT with Flash.
However he did meat Flash and he was eliminated. Speculation about what would happen if he didn't are pointless. At the end of the day, there are people in MSL finals and people who has to settle for PL.
Bisu ranking should not be based on some imaginary wins in MSL which he doesn't have.
His Ranking would be based on him being an absolute beast in PL, virtually unstoppable in PvZ and PvT if your not named Flash, having the second highest ELO with a 70 point drop to 3rd place JD. Closing in on 60 PL wins, and in general playing some of the best StarCraft of anyone these days. Imaginary MSL games got nothing to do with it.
On May 27 2011 03:41 Mortality wrote:I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail.
Well, for just this year, which we're now approaching the halfway mark of, he's at 63.64% (42 - 24) overall. But when you separate that out by match-up, you'll see the disparity: In vT he's at 79.17% (19 - 5), in vZ he's at 56.52% (13 - 10), and in vP he's at 52.63% (10 - 9).
His vT is all that's keeping his overall record looking respectable, though still well below his usual standards, instead of looking like a slump. As a fan, it's been frustrating seeing him reach what could be new heights in his ZvT only for him to seemingly lose his dominance in the other match-ups. He was at just over 80% in vP last year, and 76% in vZ, and now he's barely staying over 50%.
On May 27 2011 01:57 L0thar wrote: That's entirely possible and I'd personaly love to see Bisu PvZ in later stages of some tournament. One of the most beautiful match ups, it's a shame he was forced to double PvT with Flash.
However he did meat Flash and he was eliminated. Speculation about what would happen if he didn't are pointless. At the end of the day, there are people in MSL finals and people who has to settle for PL.
Bisu ranking should not be based on some imaginary wins in MSL which he doesn't have.
His Ranking would be based on him being an absolute beast in PL, virtually unstoppable in PvZ and PvT if your not named Flash, having the second highest ELO with a 70 point drop to 3rd place JD. Closing in on 60 PL wins, and in general playing some of the best StarCraft of anyone these days. Imaginary MSL games got nothing to do with it.
Sounds nice...in a vacuum, without comparing him to other players. Let's take a look at them:
Flash - cruising PL, MSL semifinalist, the player directly responsible for delegating Bisu to PL duties only. Zero - stellar in PL, MSL finalist, the player who actually beat Bisu head on the last time they met in PL, in Bisu strongest matchups, no less.
Why nobody reads what I'm writing over and over? Zero and Flash achieved much more than Bisu last month AND they beat him last time they played together. No way you can justify putting him over them. Every single post directed at me failed to address both of these point. I don't care how well does Bisu perform in PL when there are people who are performing almost just as well, beat the hell out of him when they played together and show significant individual leagues results.
Seriously guys, you are all acting like I wanna drop Bisu from the ranking altogether lol. I merely stated that Flash, Zero and maybe Hydra (if he win against Flash) should be ahead of him, which would put Bisu on nice 3rd or 4th place. Exactly a place where player who has only one league to train for should belong.
On May 27 2011 07:41 flamewheel wrote: And I'm going to wait for Flash vs Hydra.
Good choice.
If ZerO wins MSL next month I look forward to him being #1. And he should be fairly high this month, though not #1 (whoever wins FvH should take it imo).
On May 27 2011 03:41 Mortality wrote:I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail.
Well, for just this year, which we're now approaching the halfway mark of, he's at 63.64% (42 - 24) overall. But when you separate that out by match-up, you'll see the disparity: In vT he's at 79.17% (19 - 5), in vZ he's at 56.52% (13 - 10), and in vP he's at 52.63% (10 - 9).
His vT is all that's keeping his overall record looking respectable, though still well below his usual standards, instead of looking like a slump. As a fan, it's been frustrating seeing him reach what could be new heights in his ZvT only for him to seemingly lose his dominance in the other match-ups. He was at just over 80% in vP last year, and 76% in vZ, and now he's barely staying over 50%.
His ZvT record is actually way above his usual, but as I've said before, I really want to see those high stakes matches before I say this is the best Dong's ZvT has ever been (in relative terms).
Regarding ZvZ, 13-10 takes into account last night, no? Going into last night would anyone have suspected JD at 63% wins until then in ZvZ in 2011, averaging 75+% over a many year period, to fall to Zero? If you asked me I would have said his ZvZ stats were lower than usual because he had been struggling a bit last season, but that struggle wasn't limited -- in my viewpoint -- to ZvZ.
On May 26 2011 22:51 Mortality wrote: Not sure I want to see Zero above the Dong even with this win. But Dong really has had a terrible month. 6-8 since last PR with elimination in his statistically best match-up by a player historically weak in it.
By ELO, Zero is now #6. Jaedong is still #3, but if Hydra can pull a win over Flash at all then he will surpass JD. If Hydra loses 2-3 to Flash it will be very, very close.
I wouldn't call Jaedong's vZ his best these days, at least not in the last 6 - 7 months. It not being up-to-snuff has caused of him to lose two MSL semi-finals, and he also got knocked out of the last OSL partially due to an awful ZvZ against Hogil. And I don't think anyone would argue that his vT is essentially his only match-up where he still looks consistently like his old self.
I don't know why he can't seem to translate his general ZvZ dominance to Bo5. According to Liquipedia, he's 3 - 1 in ZvZ Bo5 through 2010; this brings him to 3 - 3 through 2011. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Bo3 - he's 20 - 3 in ZvZ Bo3 through 2010 - but it just seems like his opponents rise to the occasion when facing him in Bo5, and he... doesn't.
I hear ya, which is why I said "statistically best," although if you monkey with the time periods I think maybe his recent ZvT is statistically higher, but you just can't argue with 75+% for years without fail. His loss to Calm I understood: it was Calm playing incredibly smart SC and winning the battle of preparation. His loss to Hydra I sort of understood: last season was really bad for JD and Hydra demonstrated first rate control and understanding of timings. I have not seen the series against Zero yet but... to say this was an unexpected result is an understatement.
On May 27 2011 01:47 vishrut wrote:
On May 27 2011 01:35 L0thar wrote: Bisu in last years proved that he has problems getting from group stages in general, not just when paired with Flash or JD. He didn't *play* (much less win) a BO5 in ages.
I seriously can't believe I have to argue for MSL finalists being ahead from someone who got eliminated from group stages (like times and times before).
Top spots of PR are reserved for players who have great PL *and* individual leagues performance (if there are some). Bisu position last month is defendable, because he was crucial player in Winners League finals and that's gotta count for something. But this month he has done nothing special.
Just go and check Flash and Zero performance in PL. Flash is undefeated since last PR and Zero actually head on beat Bisu in their last (less than month old) match. Why on Earth would anybody put Bisu ahead of these two is completely beyond me.
Bisu was busy slumping hardcore so saying that he didnt do anything last year is pointless since the bisu of this year is completely different from the bisu of last year. i would think that bisu would be favored in a bo5 against zero but it would probably be close.
Also the only reason bisu is not in this zerg msl is because of flash. This is the first starleague since he has recovered his form and i think he would have gone far if he didnt meet flash
Zero happens to be exceptionally strong against Bisu, 4-3 lifetime with solid wins. Zero plays very smart SC and he doesn't allow Bisu to spread him out the same way other Zergs do. This means that I would not be so quick to favor Bisu over Zero, but it also means that ranking Zero ahead of Bisu on the grounds of winning a bo1 is even more silly than usual.
The same arguments that put Flash in #1 while he was out of SL last season argue that Bisu should be #2 right now behind only Flash who is posting comparable PL results at the moment and doing better in SL. That is my thought.
Zero... I love his smart play and I love that he's finally in a finals and I hope he wins. BUT... I'm hesitant to put him in the top 2 when his play is so erratic. On his best days, yeah, fucking hell, he's S-class no questions asked (at least in ZvT and ZvP). On his worst days... well...
idk man, if Zero wins the MSL, I think he deserves #1 PR.
That's just my opinion though. Taking out Jaedong in Zero's weakest matchup.... and then taking down Flash/Hydra... that's really impressive.
Note that the last PR was made 5/9/11, so the Zero-Bisu game was LAST month, not this one. This month Zero is 8-4, but 3 of those losses are in MSL series that he won anyway. And he's played almost exclusively ZvZ which is classically his weakest matchup
MSL finals will be after the end of this PR period. And the Zero-Bisu game was recent enough to be discussion relevant.
On May 26 2011 22:37 L0thar wrote: Sorry, but If you can't tell the difference between "being MSL finalist" and "won a game, still get eliminated form the MSL" by yourself, I probably won't be able to explain it either way.
You can explain it by being in a group with the 2 best players in the world. Not getting further into the MSL is not a negative on Bisu's list because it's entirely possible Flash or Jaedong couldn't have got through
Wait, so you are saying that since Flash and Jaedong could have theoretically lost to Bisu they should be below him?
No, I never said that. My point is that Bisu not making past the group stages is not something to hold against him
On May 26 2011 22:37 L0thar wrote: Sorry, but If you can't tell the difference between "being MSL finalist" and "won a game, still get eliminated form the MSL" by yourself, I probably won't be able to explain it either way.
You can explain it by being in a group with the 2 best players in the world. Not getting further into the MSL is not a negative on Bisu's list because it's entirely possible Flash or Jaedong couldn't have got through
Wait, so you are saying that since Flash and Jaedong could have theoretically lost to Bisu they should be below him?
No, I never said that. My point is that Bisu not making past the group stages is not something to hold against him
On May 26 2011 22:37 L0thar wrote: Sorry, but If you can't tell the difference between "being MSL finalist" and "won a game, still get eliminated form the MSL" by yourself, I probably won't be able to explain it either way.
You can explain it by being in a group with the 2 best players in the world. Not getting further into the MSL is not a negative on Bisu's list because it's entirely possible Flash or Jaedong couldn't have got through
Wait, so you are saying that since Flash and Jaedong could have theoretically lost to Bisu they should be below him?
No, I never said that. My point is that Bisu not making past the group stages is not something to hold against him
It is if you're comparing him to Flash.
I'm not because I can reasonably state that Flash should be above Bisu
On May 27 2011 11:01 Xiphos wrote: At this point, the ranking would be 1/2. ZerO/Flash 3/4 Bisu/Flash and then 5 being Hydra and then other players who have a good reccord this month.
You mean 1/2. Zero/Flash and 2/3. Bisu/Flash ?? Otherwise 1-4 are just three players ^^, I think this months PR is hard to rank. If Flash beats Hydra we might see 1 Flash 2 Zero 3 Bisu
If he loses to Hydra 1 Zero/Hydra 2 Hydra/Zero 3 Bisu
On May 27 2011 11:01 Xiphos wrote: At this point, the ranking would be 1/2. ZerO/Flash 3/4 Bisu/Flash and then 5 being Hydra and then other players who have a good reccord this month.
You mean 1/2. Zero/Flash and 2/3. Bisu/Flash ?? Otherwise 1-4 are just three players ^^, I think this months PR is hard to rank. If Flash beats Hydra we might see 1 Flash 2 Zero 3 Bisu
If he loses to Hydra 1 Zero/Hydra 2 Hydra/Zero 3 Bisu
Why would Flash be below Bisu if he loses to Hydra? For May Flash is 6-2 and Bisu is 7-2 in PL i.e. similar results, if we count since last PR Flash is 4-0 vs Bisu's 4-1 in PL. On top of that I think semifinals MSL trumps ro32 MSL. Unless Hydra trounces Flash I really don't see why Bisu should be above him in that case.
On May 27 2011 11:01 Xiphos wrote: At this point, the ranking would be 1/2. ZerO/Flash 3/4 Bisu/Flash and then 5 being Hydra and then other players who have a good reccord this month.
You mean 1/2. Zero/Flash and 2/3. Bisu/Flash ?? Otherwise 1-4 are just three players ^^, I think this months PR is hard to rank. If Flash beats Hydra we might see 1 Flash 2 Zero 3 Bisu
If he loses to Hydra 1 Zero/Hydra 2 Hydra/Zero 3 Bisu
Why would Flash be below Bisu if he loses to Hydra? For May Flash is 6-2 and Bisu is 7-2 in PL i.e. similar results, if we count since last PR Flash is 4-0 vs Bisu's 4-1 in PL. On top of that I think semifinals MSL trumps ro32 MSL. Unless Hydra trounces Flash I really don't see why Bisu should be above him in that case.
As for the same reason why this month Bisu was above Flash, by counting results only, this month Flash should be 2 and Bisu 3, but as you know, it isn't. But I won't be confused if Flash is above Bisu, I was more focusing on 1/2. spot in my post.
flash bisu zero jaedong/hydra if hydra > flash then hydra hydra/jaedong if flash < hydra then hydra soulkey
?? ??
bisu just seems more scary than zero because of zero's inconsistency and stuff (lose to jaehoon) jaedong is not looking that scary apart from his vT soulkey is below jaedong because he is still new
Honestly, unless Flash shows some serious weakness in the MSL, he should be above Bisu. Bisu hasn't really shown any weakness this month, and as I said the only thing Flash has on him is the MSL. If he wins against Hydra or at least does really well, I'd say he belongs above Bisu this time around. The only way I'd drop him is if he crashes and burns.
On May 27 2011 21:37 vishrut wrote: i think it should be:
flash bisu zero jaedong/hydra if hydra > flash then hydra hydra/jaedong if flash < hydra then hydra soulkey
?? ??
bisu just seems more scary than zero because of zero's inconsistency and stuff (lose to jaehoon) jaedong is not looking that scary apart from his vT soulkey is below jaedong because he is still new
How is soulkey still considered a new player? he's been an A-teamer for more then a year already and this is not even his first time on the power rank, there's no way you can put Jaedong above soulkey considering their month
On May 29 2011 05:33 Rtran10 wrote: what's the likelihood jaedong drops out of the top 5
Unfortunately it's a realistic possibility, but given his skill, given the run he was having just a month ago, given that he made it to the semifinal before flopping... a part of me doesn't want to see it happen. Another part thinks... you drop the ball, you're bound to get punished.
2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
On May 27 2011 21:37 vishrut wrote: i think it should be:
flash bisu zero jaedong/hydra if hydra > flash then hydra hydra/jaedong if flash < hydra then hydra soulkey
?? ??
bisu just seems more scary than zero because of zero's inconsistency and stuff (lose to jaehoon) jaedong is not looking that scary apart from his vT soulkey is below jaedong because he is still new
How is soulkey still considered a new player? he's been an A-teamer for more then a year already and this is not even his first time on the power rank, there's no way you can put Jaedong above soulkey considering their month
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run (so far) he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He beat a slumping Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit) and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
are flash and bisu good friends? doesnt flash practice with cj zergs?
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
I think Flash putting Hydra on his group is more likely to happen. Just saying.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
I think Flash putting Hydra on his group is more likely to happen. Just saying.
He can't, they're both seeded (same reason why Hydra couldn't move Stork to group D last time).
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
I think Flash putting Hydra on his group is more likely to happen. Just saying.
I disagree because that's impossible. Hydra is seeded.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run (so far) he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He beat a slumping Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit) and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
Firstly, I disagree with anyone who says that just because you get through a SL on only one match means you haven't earned the title. Secondly, during that time and since that time the only "question" has been his ZvT, which is third best in the world.
So basically, people are doubting the abilities of a player who is #3 ZvT, #2 ZvZ (ELO still ranks Shine as #2, but Shine has only ZvZ'd twice so far in 2011 -- that rating is based off his streak in December of last year), and either #2 or #3 ZvP, who has been ranked as the #2 Zerg for about 6 months, and even got the nod from Bisu in "if you were a manager, what team would you want to manage, choose 2 of each race?" He hasn't proven himself as S-class -- YET -- but he's most definitely in the upper reaches of A.
Seems to me like just a lot of fanboy hate for wrecking TBLS dominance two seasons running.
On May 29 2011 14:15 Mortality wrote: Seems to me like just a lot of fanboy hate for wrecking TBLS dominance two seasons running.
Cowardly sticking the best of the best in a group so they'll be forced to eliminate each other because you're afraid of facing them (and want to secure an easy seed instead) isn't exactly wrecking dominance. That's the main reason people don't think of him as a true champion.
On May 29 2011 14:15 Mortality wrote: Seems to me like just a lot of fanboy hate for wrecking TBLS dominance two seasons running.
Cowardly sticking the best of the best in a group so they'll be forced to eliminate each other because you're afraid of facing them (and want to secure an easy seed instead) isn't exactly wrecking dominance. That's the main reason people don't think of him as a true champion.
Which is a stupid reason, quite honestly, as it has nothing to do with what he did last season nor does it have anything to do with the impressiveness of his run this season. Do remember that he allowed Light in his own group, which for a Zerg player is hardly such a cowardly thing to do. It's true that he knew he was getting rid of one member of TBLS, but methinks that the real reason he did it was because he could. And then laugh about it. Viewed from a different light he was sending them a message.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
I think Flash putting Hydra on his group is more likely to happen. Just saying.
He can't, they're both seeded (same reason why Hydra couldn't move Stork to group D last time).
Bisu and Great aren't. He can put Sea, Bisu, Hydra and Great in the same group.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
I think Flash putting Hydra on his group is more likely to happen. Just saying.
He can't, they're both seeded (same reason why Hydra couldn't move Stork to group D last time).
Bisu and Great aren't. He can put Sea, Bisu, Hydra and Great in the same group.
Did you not see my message that you quoted? I already said that. :3
On May 29 2011 14:15 Mortality wrote: Seems to me like just a lot of fanboy hate for wrecking TBLS dominance two seasons running.
Cowardly sticking the best of the best in a group so they'll be forced to eliminate each other because you're afraid of facing them (and want to secure an easy seed instead) isn't exactly wrecking dominance. That's the main reason people don't think of him as a true champion.
Which is a stupid reason, quite honestly, as it has nothing to do with what he did last season nor does it have anything to do with the impressiveness of his run this season. Do remember that he allowed Light in his own group, which for a Zerg player is hardly such a cowardly thing to do. It's true that he knew he was getting rid of one member of TBLS, but methinks that the real reason he did it was because he could. And then laugh about it. Viewed from a different light he was sending them a message.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
are flash and bisu good friends? doesnt flash practice with cj zergs?
On May 29 2011 14:15 Mortality wrote: Seems to me like just a lot of fanboy hate for wrecking TBLS dominance two seasons running.
Cowardly sticking the best of the best in a group so they'll be forced to eliminate each other because you're afraid of facing them (and want to secure an easy seed instead) isn't exactly wrecking dominance. That's the main reason people don't think of him as a true champion.
Which is a stupid reason, quite honestly, as it has nothing to do with what he did last season nor does it have anything to do with the impressiveness of his run this season. Do remember that he allowed Light in his own group, which for a Zerg player is hardly such a cowardly thing to do. It's true that he knew he was getting rid of one member of TBLS, but methinks that the real reason he did it was because he could. And then laugh about it. Viewed from a different light he was sending them a message.
That the era of TBLS is coming to an end?
Except that no, it doesn't send any message of the sort. for people to think tbls are 'coming to an end', they need to either all slump and fade away (currently flash and bisu are on top of their game), or get passed in skill by rising competition. Sticking them against each other is just a cheap cowardly move, I don't see any other interpretation for it. You're not proving you're better than them if they are forced to eliminate each other.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
are flash and bisu good friends? doesnt flash practice with cj zergs?
Flash seems to be friends with everyone...
I don't think Flash is too friendly with Bisu or Stork in some way.
On May 29 2011 14:15 Mortality wrote: Seems to me like just a lot of fanboy hate for wrecking TBLS dominance two seasons running.
Cowardly sticking the best of the best in a group so they'll be forced to eliminate each other because you're afraid of facing them (and want to secure an easy seed instead) isn't exactly wrecking dominance. That's the main reason people don't think of him as a true champion.
Which is a stupid reason, quite honestly, as it has nothing to do with what he did last season nor does it have anything to do with the impressiveness of his run this season. Do remember that he allowed Light in his own group, which for a Zerg player is hardly such a cowardly thing to do. It's true that he knew he was getting rid of one member of TBLS, but methinks that the real reason he did it was because he could. And then laugh about it. Viewed from a different light he was sending them a message.
That the era of TBLS is coming to an end?
Except that no, it doesn't send any message of the sort. for people to think tbls are 'coming to an end', they need to either all slump and fade away (currently flash and bisu are on top of their game), or get passed in skill by rising competition. Sticking them against each other is just a cheap cowardly move, I don't see any other interpretation for it. You're not proving you're better than them if they are forced to eliminate each other.
You're proving they aren't getting seeded and you are. You're calling the shots and you're making yourself a target. Why would a coward paint a bullseye on his back? Why would a coward let the #2 TvZer in the world be his very first opponent when ZvT is considered his weak match? I think you're off base.
But how many times have they gotten seeded and how many times has he? did Flash and JD abuse the hell out of their votes? sure he's not breaking the rules, he's just being a juvenile turd. Guy gets power once and gets drunk on it. And why didn't he move light? because he didn't need to. He only had to play 1 game vs Light and the rest of the group was easy. Anyway, pretty clear we're not going to agree on this, so continuing this is pointless.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
are flash and bisu good friends? doesnt flash practice with cj zergs?
Flash seems to be friends with everyone...
I don't think Flash is too friendly with Bisu or Stork in some way.
I always thought that Flash and Stork are good friends. In the past Flash and Stork both mentioned practicing quite a bit with each other.
On May 29 2011 11:21 Mortality wrote: 2 times semifinal or higher in a row and people still think Hydra's "just a fluke?" Kind of want to see FBH, Horang2, and Light in low PR spots. Bogus was pretty good. 1-0 over both Dong and Sea and 1-1 with Soulkey, but 0-1 to Hydra, 0-1 to Bisu, 0-2 to FBH tells me he should be behind those guys.
He essentially ZvZ'd all the way to his first title (1), having gotten lucky to not run into good terrans. His win vs JD was noteworthy, but then again JD's ZvZ is no longer immortal either. In his second run he arranged for himself to have a (mostly) safe trip to the ro8 by sticking Flash/JD/Bisu in group D (which is not a very champion-like thing to do). He did beat Stork (which wasn't bad, I'll admit), and then Mind.
While I certainly don't think Hydra is a bad player (in fact I don't know that anyone does) I also don't think he's S-class or anything, though he is certainly hyped as such by certain people. If he manages to convincingly beat Flash in mechanics/gameplay (not just relying on ling all-in/2-hatch lurks/etc) I'll likely be changing my tune.
i just realized he might put stork and bisu into flash's group if he wins and fuck up the next msl
And if Flash wins, perhaps he'll stick Bisu and great into Hydra's group to let Bisu get some revenge.
are flash and bisu good friends? doesnt flash practice with cj zergs?
Flash seems to be friends with everyone...
I don't think Flash is too friendly with Bisu or Stork in some way.
I always thought that Flash and Stork are good friends. In the past Flash and Stork both mentioned practicing quite a bit with each other.
Yeah it was before in the last OSL finals, I remember Flash saying that he would either practise with Stork or not depending on if Stork or Fantasy asked first
Flash and Stork have definitely seemed friendly in the past. I remember Stork used to sound like a Flash fanboy last year in his interviews, always predicting him to win things because he's just so damn good.
But then there was that drama over the Proleague no-show where KT gave Flash the day off to practice for individual leagues and Stork called him out on it, which of course came back to bite Stork in the ass recently when Khan did the same thing for him.
Bisu doesn't really seem close with any of the other TBLS
On May 30 2011 14:04 Hinanawi wrote: Flash and Stork have definitely seemed friendly in the past. I remember Stork used to sound like a Flash fanboy last year in his interviews, always predicting him to win things because he's just so damn good.
But then there was that drama over the Proleague no-show where KT gave Flash the day off to practice for individual leagues and Stork called him out on it, which of course came back to bite Stork in the ass recently when Khan did the same thing for him.
Bisu doesn't really seem close with any of the other TBLS
well and what was worse about stork doing that is he got 3-0'd rofl... That was hilarious :D
On May 29 2011 14:15 Mortality wrote: Seems to me like just a lot of fanboy hate for wrecking TBLS dominance two seasons running.
Cowardly sticking the best of the best in a group so they'll be forced to eliminate each other because you're afraid of facing them (and want to secure an easy seed instead) isn't exactly wrecking dominance. That's the main reason people don't think of him as a true champion.
Which is a stupid reason, quite honestly, as it has nothing to do with what he did last season nor does it have anything to do with the impressiveness of his run this season. Do remember that he allowed Light in his own group, which for a Zerg player is hardly such a cowardly thing to do. It's true that he knew he was getting rid of one member of TBLS, but methinks that the real reason he did it was because he could. And then laugh about it. Viewed from a different light he was sending them a message.
That the era of TBLS is coming to an end?
Except that no, it doesn't send any message of the sort. for people to think tbls are 'coming to an end', they need to either all slump and fade away (currently flash and bisu are on top of their game), or get passed in skill by rising competition. Sticking them against each other is just a cheap cowardly move, I don't see any other interpretation for it. You're not proving you're better than them if they are forced to eliminate each other.
As much as I hate Hydra for setting up the Group of Death, do you realize how childish you sound? He's a professional and he's playing to win; it's not his fault that TBLS got knocked out before they could get a seed, he's just exercising his right as champion. It's not a cheap cowardly move. It's the smart thing to do. If it were me in the same position I would have done it without any hesitation.
At the end of the day it sucks for the fans. But these players aren't playing for you. They're playing to win. The entertainment of spectators come secondary.
I'm aware of that, and I acknowledged that he didn't violate the rules. I also pointed out how Flash and JD never saw fit to abuse their power like this (and they've had said power a lot more than Hydra did). For that I admire them. Being smart and being cowardly are not mutually exclusive.
I don't think there's anything to take from Hydra's selection. After all, he's hardly the first to form a group of death. Note that it bit Bisu in the ass on this occasion, as it could have done for Hydra in the form of Light's excellent TvZ.
On May 30 2011 18:29 metzninja wrote: I don't think there's anything to take from Hydra's selection. After all, he's hardly the first to form a group of death. Note that it bit Bisu in the ass on this occasion, as it could have done for Hydra in the form of Light's excellent TvZ.
Oh, how soon we forget that Bisu did that. Most of us did forget about that because it was overshadowed by Bisu putting Savior as his first opponent. And you know what? I'm GLAD hydra and great did what they did. Most of the other top seeds (Bisu excluded) were too "courteous" and were afraid to make any controversial switches. Story lines make for great Starleagues and this created a TON.
Also, hydra kept his promise of not getting eliminated until he met someone from Group of Death, which was another storyline going through the MSL.
On May 30 2011 18:15 bearbuddy wrote: I actually think Hydra did it for the lulz instead of trying to dodge someone, lol.
I tend to agree with that. It probably was just Hydra trying to spice things up a bit... which he did... I still don't like what he did and I think it was bad for this MSL. Its a good thing Flash is still in it to save us from another ZvZzzzzzzzzzzzzz final.
I can't realy understand how come , every time people can't see past the "fans" in them.And give ridiculous reasons to justify how their "boy" should be #1 or atleast above their current #... I admit i'm a Bisu(more like toss actually) fan , and u can stomp me as much as you like ,but beesuit deserves a place over flash(for April that is). And to those who don't get it.. Winners League is Much Much bigger stage than MSLs group of death. Thats one shot - no second chances . Plus you aren't the only one who's losing , you throw away all your teammates work for the last what 1-2-3months(?) - and thats for all of you that talk too much of Flash's 2 MSL games over Bisu. Add the random game drops of Flash and you have it ... And keep in mind PR is monthly , not yearly , neither alltime... So instead of flaming , hope that your favourites will do better.
P.S. I really can see the Group of Death go like forever if they had to play each other. And i'm really happy as there isn't one dominant player as it kinda ruins the fun of the game.(what do you want to see? every time the same onesided game or drama/comebacks/corean comentators screaming??)
On May 30 2011 14:04 Hinanawi wrote: Bisu doesn't really seem close with any of the other TBLS
Bisu is just extremely introverted. He's not very close with SKT players either :3
He seemed closest to MBCGame back in the day.
Hes good friends with Stork I know. And he practices with Jaedong (I forgot which interview he mentioned this in) on Battle.net he said. Not sure about his relationship with Flash.
On May 31 2011 07:23 Devise wrote: hopefully Jaedong retains his #1 spot!
PR-wise there's no chance of that happening. Since the last PR, he lost most of his SPL games [1], and then lost to zero in the MSL. I don't even think he'll be a top 5 candidate.
As for his KeSPA rank, even if he gets #1 for 1 more month (2,353.5 last month, Flash at 2,255.3), he is almost certain to drop the following month.
On May 31 2011 06:51 Xiphos wrote: I think doing it right now instead of waiting for Flash and Hydra going at it is the best because it stands true to its "May Ranking"
To be fair though, the first week of may is sorta incorporated into the current ranking.
Zero shouldn't be top 2. Whoever wins the other semi finals will be looking much better. If Flash wins, je is a much better player, with a more impressive slate of games, and better wins. If hydra wins, It would be an accomplishment more impressive than beating current JD, and again has a much better slate of games outside of that.
As for Bisu vs Zero: Zero's month has been a lot of ZvZs, and not much else. The wins over JD and Bisu are very nice, but he lost to some bad opponents: calm twice*, Jaehoon, soo, and action*. His large number of wins Isn't because he is on an eath-shattering tear, it's just because he has played a lot of games. Playing a lot of games can set you up for a high spot on the PR, but it isn't justification alone.
And as for the "power" argument: I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who honestly thinks zero can beat Bisu in a Bo5. I would root for zero in such a series, but I'm liqibeting bisu.
I'm thinking zero should be 3, possibly 4 if flash loses 2-3.
*in ZvZs, not terribly good MUs for either of them
On May 31 2011 09:51 hacklebeast wrote: Zero shouldn't be top 2. Whoever wins the other semi finals will be looking much better. If Flash wins, je is a much better player, with a more impressive slate of games, and better wins. If hydra wins, It would be an accomplishment more impressive than beating current JD, and again has a much better slate of games outside of that.
As for Bisu vs Zero: Zero's month has been a lot of ZvZs, and not much else. The wins over JD and Bisu are very nice, but he lost to some bad opponents: calm twice*, Jaehoon, soo, and action*. His large number of wins Isn't because he is on an eath-shattering tear, it's just because he has played a lot of games. Playing a lot of games can set you up for a high spot on the PR, but it isn't justification alone.
And as for the "power" argument: I think you would be hard pressed to find someone who honestly thinks zero can beat Bisu in a Bo5. I would root for zero in such a series, but I'm liqibeting bisu.
I'm thinking zero should be 3, possibly 4 if flash loses 2-3.
*in ZvZs, not terribly good MUs for either of them
First of all, I downgrade any losses that Zero lost against Clam and Jaedong because he ultimately won the Bo5.
People should not downplay Zero's games just because they're ZvZ. In fact, the fact that he won 3 ZvZ series in a row to reach the MSL finals shows that he overcame his weakness of ZvZ, particularly against JD, who he was 4-11 against lifetime prior to the series. I thought Shark at least showed that ZvZ is a legitimate matchup that should not be degraded just because it's ZvZ.
That being said, I think Zero's the only zerg who has a good shot against Bisu in a Bo5... but what's the use of theorizing if Bisu can't go up in individual leagues? I think we all know his individual league woes for a while now, and I don't see any reason that should change anytime soon. Don't say it was Flash. Bisu had a legitimate chance to win against Flash and advance TWICE and failed to capitalize (especially first game: Failed 8rax anyone?). In other words, he choked. /rant
And to those who say hydra Kwanrolled his ZvTs: Did you watch his games vs Mind? Besides, the fact that you did that and won with it makes the opponent account for that kind of play, even Flash. And he only did that on Monte Cristo.
So ignore the fact he played almost exclusively ZvZ. He still lost to a bunch of bad people.
And the point of saying Bisu is a straight up better player than zero is that the PR has had a long history of requiring A players to have far better records than S players to pass them. Bisu (along with Flash and JD) are clearly in a different class than zero. Inevitably some A players will pass JD, but they will have far better records. If just another player had a sub .500 month they probaly wouldn't be on the PR, much less the 4-7 region that people hAve been talking about for him.
TLDR Because Bisu is S class, he doesn't necessarily need to have a better record than zero to be ahead of him (although I think he does)
personally I think Zero winning ZvZs is more impressive than him winning in other matchups, precisely because he's by far weakest in ZvZ--who else other than JD has beaten both Flash and Bisu (the best vZ; luckily Zero doesn't really have to deal with light much anymore lol) recently, and stands at least a 40% or so chance against them? (and even JD Is looking weak vs Bisu...) He had to overcome his weak point to get to the finals. (Also the last and only two Zergs to beat JD in Ro4 ended up winning ZvZ finals.... let's hope that [at least the ZvZ part] doesn't happen??)
My thought on ZvZ has always been that what matters isn't so much "can you win this specific game" but "what's your average over 10 games look like." I know that's sort of true in any match-up because this is a game of limited information and even if you had full information you could still make a mistake. But in ZvZ that information is much more limited. On your typical map -- especially 4 player maps -- you are 100% guaranteed already locked into your build before you have a chance to scout your opponent. It wasn't until Jaedong that mastery of adjusting the strategy you are locked into to deal with your opponent's strategy came about, and even then, that's in part due to the evolution in ZvZ builds and strategies that was occurring thanks to players like Savior during the 2005-2006 period.
So I am impressed with Zero that he did what he did, and all the more impressed considering it's his weakest match-up. As far as I'm concerned, we will learn who the #2 Zerg is depending on how Hydra does vs Flash (note: Hydra doesn't have to win the series to prove he's #2, but he at least has to give Flash a tough run). And no, I don't consider Soulkey the #2 Zerg.
As for Bisu vs Zero, I'm not really against either being ahead. If Zero were taking the gold during this PR period it would be different. As impressive as making the final is, that last step is a crucial one. I think Zero's play has been really impressive lately and that his results haven't always done justice to his skill (I've been saying that for how many months now?). He's wow'd me many times this year. And he's done it against every member of TBLS. By contrast, Bisu is more consistent, but he's failed to really wow me against Flash or Stork, only against Jaedong. His one win against Flash was solid, but it didn't wow me.
And I do think Zero would have a good shot at Bisu in bo5. Zero has historically been strong against Bisu. QUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSS. lol
On May 31 2011 07:23 Devise wrote: hopefully Jaedong retains his #1 spot!
That is completely impossible. JD should not even have made it past Reality (he sucked out in game 3 when reality forgot how to make bunkers/walls vs. 1base tier 1 Zerg). He has been outplayed this month in both his series, and has done virtually nothing to warrant a top slot. JD looked great in April but absolutely did not look up to form in May.
Players who have looked better overall: Flash Zero Hydra Soulkey Bisu (probably) Movie (strange to see him back)
Also, I might have to delay PR... My home internet has been down for more than a day now (I'm writing this from the library), and if it doesn't come back up by tomorrow I won't actually be able to do anything ~_~
So if there's a delay just be patient and assume that I'm trapped in the stone age.
flash bisu zero SK hydra JD Horang2 movie FBH Bogus
I'm torn on where to place JD, on some levels I'd be ok with him 4th, and on some levels, I'm ok with him 9th. The other 9 I feel pretty solidly about.
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BaBy
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