EPTOctober Revolution - Page 13
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Johnzee
United States216 Posts
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Mohawk_99
United States6 Posts
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bbm
United Kingdom1320 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:04 BrosephBrostar wrote: It's perfectly reasonable logic to call a game a fraud when one player can beat someone who trains twice as much just by having good "mentality." What if they're just better? My flatmate is just flat out better at games than me. We get a brand new game, and he'll just be better. Whether it's call of duty, chess, gears of war, starcraft, trackmania or forza, he's just better than me. Infuriating. Doesn't matter how much I practice, he's just better. His mind is more attuned to gaming, his reactions better, his multitasking more functinoal, whatever I don't know. But without practicing more he's better than me. Similarly I remember a guy in my class at school, who, having never played golf before, after 45 minutes was hitting every shot 200 yards at the driving range. I can't do that shit and I've played for hours (not _masses_ of hours, but more than he had). | ||
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
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OhSix
United States252 Posts
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Von
United States363 Posts
The reasoning and conclusions are solid. The final conclusion is self-evident. In any sport at the highest levels: baseball. Tennis. Golf. Racing. Mountain climbing. etc etc .... thousands of champions and icons have given interviews and almost all of them say the same thing: It is "mental game" that separates champions from the other players that have played for just as long, practiced just as much, have had the same advantages. After a certain level - it's in the mind, and control of the mind and emotions is the key. So that this is no different in Starcraft should not be a huge surprise. | ||
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Pred8oar
Germany281 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
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Sewi
Germany1697 Posts
Threads like this are the reason I still love TL that much | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I think FuzzyJAM brought up some good points that are fairly representative of the arguments that have been made. I think my point is more nuanced than he and others made out, so I'll try to make it clear. I don't think the Korean training method is a bad way to go, and I do think there's a good bit of anecdotal evidence that it's the most consistently good way to achieve results. But I think that for most of this year, the rhetoric has been that it is the only way forward, and my intention is to dispute this. Right now, there are other ways to succeed as a pro than just being in a Korean training house. It's true, IdrA told me he is looking forward to going back to Korea, and HuK credited the Korean ladder with a lot of his success. You'll never hear me argue that training on a worse server is better than training on a stronger one. But my point is that it can be done, you can win without being in Korea. I don't think many people have believed that until this month. The timing of this article looks awkward, SaSe, NaNiwa, SeleCT, and HuK all falling out of the GSL is unfortunate. But it in no way disproves this theory. After all, all of them have had access to Korean training, and yet didn't win. That's just bad luck, the fact that they all played quite strong opponents, and also a reflection of external factors that hit foreigners especially hard, like SaSe getting sick in Manilla. Using overall GSL statistics of foreigners in Code A simply doesn't work in my view, I think foreigners going to Korea for Code A haven't planned it well, ThorZaIN played his Code A match less than 18 hours after a red-eye flight, for example. You can't win that way. On November 15 2011 22:08 RotterdaM wrote: Great article and I really loooooooooove the artwork ^^, but I wouldnt necessarily agree with everything, there were quite a few people inlcuding myself who always said the difference aint that big and that there are just a few Koreans who are way better (we all know who they are ) but other than that I've always been a firm believer of foreigners being able to win tournaments, been saying it for months and it was nice to see october turn out the way it did ^^ Thanks for the comment, I know I've talked with MrBitter about this in the past, and he mentioned that you two shared this view. I do disagree with it though, I think the Korean scene has way more depth than the foreign one. A large part of that is related to mentality, and I think it's surely smaller than many people expect, but I think that the difference between the 20th best foreigner and the 20th best Korean is quite large. One final response; On November 16 2011 00:24 therockmanxx wrote: Good article but I dont like that you use the same banner as day9 use in an old article !! Well done to you sir, I was wondering who the first person to notice this would be. That was actually the first frontpage article I read on TL. Double points if you remember what the Day9 article was about without checking! | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
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nebula.
Sweden1431 Posts
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Day[10]
United States65 Posts
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Hurricaned
France126 Posts
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
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Thrill
2599 Posts
We're not going to see one foreigner do well at MLG Providence, not a single one. Sadly. Nestea will be the Korean that does worst out of the top invites. Heard it here first. | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:58 Thrill wrote: Sadly the October Foreign New Hope will be followed by November: the Koreans Strike Back. We're not going to see one foreigner do well at MLG Providence, not a single one. Sadly. Nestea will be the Korean that does worst out of the top invites. Heard it here first. You're such a fairweather fan!  | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
Providence should be interesting. If someone can manage to take down Mvp/Nestea, I think we will settle this debate once and for all. | ||
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n0btozz
Iceland115 Posts
However, I want to be "critical" of this article. From a coach´s standpoint, the Korean model is simply better then any other we currently see in the starcraft scene. That is not a myth like you claim in this article. Many scientific articles have been written on training and how to maximize the amount of top pro´s in any sport. A couple of factors weigh in, for how long you train, how often, with whom, where and under what kind of an instructor. Those are just a few examples. Of course, adding to that is the individual himself. I can have twins, training the exact same way, yet one will get better then the other, you can call it the natural factor. Within that, you have the players "need" for winning, you have his natural talent, you have his passion, and then you have his (some say) gender. And gender matters a lot, because in a competitive environment, men have an advantage, but that´s irrelevant for this article. Back to training - In the short term of a year or two, the Korean model has already established it´s dominance. No foreigner can claim the success comparable to that of the top Koreans. The Korean training model gives us so many top top top players, compared to any other model. The Korean model, which is a copy of good sport related coaching models, get´s us top level players, the other coaching models, "bashing the NA server" and "not training so much but still a bit" have not shown us resaults even close to those given to us by the Korean model. To name 2 players outside of the Korean model, that have in 1 month out of the last 12, bashed a couple of Koreans in a tournament and all of a sudden the Korean model isn´t superior to the other models, this is very faulty reasoning. Also, only 1-2 of those tourneys had the top tier Koreans in them, and when there were top tier Koreans, none of them were either NesTea or MVP, which reminds me of their trip to Blizzcon, in this revolutionary month, where MVP and NesTea absolutely roflstomped the top qualified players from the rest of the world, i´m not sure they even broke a sweat. This article obviously was supposed to breath life into the hope of foreigners being able to dominate in the SC2 scene equally to Koreans, but that is a distant dream simply because the Korean model dominates that of any foreigner model currently employed. The Korean model is mirrored in any top sport training model, the guys playing football with their friends every day, don´t get as good as the guys who play football and/or do football related practice regimes all day with their professional club. However, 1-2 guys might have a real talent in the former group, and being able to play on par with the guys in the latter model, however, they will not reach the same hight as equally talented players who train all day, simply because their training methods are better. When SC2 has been out for such a short while, we will have some foreigners who are able to come close to the Koreans, the Korean model hasn´t paid off fully, not even close. Right now, with much fewer players playing then play in the rest of the world, we can say out of the top 100 players, probably 60-70% or more of them are Koreans. The model doesn´t make up for individual skill/talent, but that get´s less and less relevant over time as the Korean model produces more good players. What i´m trying to say is, the Korean model produces a lot of really really good players, some of whom become elite simply because of natural talent, not everyone can become elite. We in the foreigner scene have just as many players with the talent to become elite, but our training models don´t get them there, they can like Stephano, become really good even though they don´t practice that much, but Stephano isn´t one to take down the GSL any time soon (sorry Stephano fans). However, had Stephano spent the last year in the Korean model, I am pretty sure NesTea wouldn´t have 90%< win ratio in ZvZ. This is mirrored in the start of starcraft BW, where Koreans hadn´t gotten as untouchable. We have every reason to learn from that, over time the Korean model not only shapes the top 2-5 players. It will always start to add on one and one who get to that "elite tier" which isn´t reachable just by playing 3 hours a day, or bashing inferior players all day long. In 5 years time, if foreigners don´t start to do what EG did and start pro houses (rather in Europe since the overall quality of top EU players seems to outshine the NA ones pretty hard), the foreigner scene will fall behind rather quickly, and we´ll end up with the same situation as in BW, not a single foreigner who can claim he´s a top 30 player in the world. Let´s not let this October month or this article fool us, in the field of "quality practicing" the Korean model is much closer to how it´s supposed to be then the current foreigner training. However, just to not only be critical, the part about mentality was great. It most often falls under the persons talents, and can contrary to popular belief be "coached" or taught to players. Hence the players with the mentality of them being champions, usually end up as champions. Good mentality is really important as we all know.. Good players with poor mentality don´t get far in any sport. ---- To add a little to the article, inspire the same sort of hope, I know for a fact that there is still time to make foreigners the top players in Starcraft. If the foreigner teams would get team houses in say, Europe, put up the same model as the Koreans have, the time it would take to surpass them would not be long. Why? Because the player pool in Europe, and therefor the naturally talented players pool of the foreigner servers is so much much much bigger then what Koreans have to play with. The quality of practice on the EU server would get much higher, giving the lower level players (mid/high masters now) a chance to play the worlds best on a regular basis, upping their own skill. This is why so many Koreans are so good, they are always playing the best players and therefor improving faster (playing against better players is a proven training method and considered to be one of the fastest training methods in sports ranging from football to chess). But we can´t do that in 5 years time, then we are too far behind. So I really hope the foreigner teams start to realize there is a lot of money in starcraft, and throwing up team houses and getting the best players in the world together, living and breathing starcraft, is actually going to pay off for them and the foreigner scene very fast. Foreigners fighting! /no flame please. the rhetoric has been that it is the only way forward, and my intention is to dispute this. Right now, there are other ways to succeed as a pro than just being in a Korean training house. It's true, IdrA told me he is looking forward to going back to Korea, and HuK credited the Korean ladder with a lot of his success. You'll never hear me argue that training on a worse server is better than training on a stronger one. But my point is that it can be done, you can win without being in Korea. I don't think many people have believed that until this month. Just have to answer that. Yes, the Korean model is the only one moving forward. Right now, because SC2 has been out for such a short while, we are destined to see some fluctuations, as in, some random very skilled foreigners getting some results in. But consistently the gap between foreigners and Koreans will start to increase, until as I said above, they are out of reach, even for the most talented foreigners. We will have some upsets now and then, but moving on, the Korean model or an improved version of it is the only way to go. | ||
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