EPTGSL World Championship: Korea vs The World - Page 6
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Existential
Australia2107 Posts
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On April 04 2011 13:59 rift wrote: I agree; the incredible amount of practice and effort put in by players in team houses doesn't produce the results, at least to the same magnitude, as it did in BW. If it were the case, every TL member who trained with oGs would return to foreign tournaments considerably better than most of the other competition, much like IdrA was after practicing for so long in the CJ house. It's like ret said on a SotG, "before when I was in Korea I felt my mechanics constantly improving, but now I feel that level of practice is not needed" before he left the house (or something to that extent). It's a great feeling to have foreigners be on a closer skill level to Koreans, but think of it not as Foreign vs Korea but as such: players who play on their own--oftentimes while having other responsibilities or occupations--versus players who live together, train together, exist in a StarCraft-oriented environment almost all of the time. SC2 certainly isn't as competitive as BW and foreigners are closer to Koreans, but I wouldn't go that far. The Koreans were holding back at least some of their strategies during the Team League, and when money was on the line...well, the individuals' tournament really didn't look that good for foreigners. ...Still, it was much more even than BW. | ||
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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On April 04 2011 10:46 Itsmedudeman wrote: koreans are still ahead, just not as much as they were in BW lol. We just went down 7-8. I'd say just from these results, and from the TSL, we're pretty even, judging from results atleast. I do believe that mvp especially is a class for himself though. The multitasking of that guy is through the roof. I highly recommend everyone to watch the whitera vs MC games. It was beautiful. The dimaga games also gave goose bumps, but not quite as shiny as the ra vs MC game imo. Awesome allround tournament. | ||
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BreakeR.
Austria220 Posts
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Scribble
2077 Posts
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Caos2
United States1728 Posts
Too bad the donations weren't mind blowing. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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nimdil
Poland3748 Posts
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ct2299
380 Posts
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SniXSniPe
United States1938 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Teamleagues are also a horrible way to gauge skill as there is no way you can prepare or respond to an opponent in them. You face an unknown opponent in a BO1 and if you win the other team can send out someone prepared for you... The entire format is made to cause upsets which makes it fun to watch but also off relatively no meaning to actual skill of teams and players involved. The top players don't take these teamleagues serious yet and really why should they? Sometimes they show up without even having to play... In most personal events koreans outperformed non-koreans by quite a bit with the exception of TSL. TSL itself really seems to give hope that the gap isn't as big (yet) but then again the lagfactor is hard to exclude from that tournament. Lag might not have been that bad but koreans aren't used to playing with it so they had a relative disadvantage in that way. The best way to gauge difference between the koreans and the rest will probably be the NASL. The proportion of koreans (8 out of 50?) and the number of games are both big enough to actually get some sensible data from that tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if all the koreans end up placing top 3 of their group there which will show that they truly stand alone skillwise. | ||
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LuciferSC
Canada535 Posts
On April 04 2011 17:31 acker wrote: SC2 certainly isn't as competitive as BW and foreigners are closer to Koreans, but I wouldn't go that far. The Koreans were holding back at least some of their strategies during the Team League, and when money was on the line...well, the individuals' tournament really didn't look that good for foreigners. ...Still, it was much more even than BW. I'd have to agree with the quotes quoted above you bud. Back in the day of Gi Yeom Patrick and the old school players, I do not think there actually was an established E-Sports pro scene. (and therefore no practice house, practice coaches, etc) Therefore now, even though SC2 is still quite young, they pretty much had those practice settings right off the bat, yet they only produced such results. It shows how 'less-comparative' SC2 has become. It's good on one side that any normal Joes like u and I can reproduce what the pros do, but it really it sad to see on the competitive pro side of SC2 scene. And I gotta ask the fellow who puts the foreign scene on the same level with Korean one. What do you have to say about the individual league result? (for the foreigners) | ||
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LuciferSC
Canada535 Posts
On April 04 2011 22:26 Markwerf wrote: Unfortunately Koreans still seem to own white dudes. The team event wasn't taken serious really by the koreans which showed in some of the tactics and interviews about it. For example MVP went BC in the game he dropped because it would be an awesome way to play and San also went carrier earlier which he probably wouldn't do in a personal league. Teamleagues are also a horrible way to gauge skill as there is no way you can prepare or respond to an opponent in them. You face an unknown opponent in a BO1 and if you win the other team can send out someone prepared for you... The entire format is made to cause upsets which makes it fun to watch but also off relatively no meaning to actual skill of teams and players involved. The top players don't take these teamleagues serious yet and really why should they? Sometimes they show up without even having to play... In most personal events koreans outperformed non-koreans by quite a bit with the exception of TSL. TSL itself really seems to give hope that the gap isn't as big (yet) but then again the lagfactor is hard to exclude from that tournament. Lag might not have been that bad but koreans aren't used to playing with it so they had a relative disadvantage in that way. The best way to gauge difference between the koreans and the rest will probably be the NASL. The proportion of koreans (8 out of 50?) and the number of games are both big enough to actually get some sensible data from that tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if all the koreans end up placing top 3 of their group there which will show that they truly stand alone skillwise. Totally agree with your post. I personally feel though, that bigger the player numbers become, the more advantageous Koreans are gonna be. If there's one remaining advantage from their E-sports infra, it's that they have more pro players. (ie. more competition level players) | ||
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Qaatar
1409 Posts
On April 04 2011 21:23 nimdil wrote: The fact that 49million country can actually win against players from Europe, North America and China means that their training regiment is way ahead of anything the rest of the world has to offer. Interesting part is that HuK and Jinro are the only foreigners playing in GSL Code S and yet they both lost their games. I think everything points to the game being extremely volatile. Like a few previous posters pointed out, progamers who practice twice as much, who live in a gaming culture that figuratively breathes Starcraft, has a NATIONAL media that recognizes the legitimacy of Starcraft as a real sport (although perhaps not SC2 yet), and just an overall culture of EXTREME hard workers - why can't they STILL pull significantly ahead of a bunch of ragtag gamers who basically practice on a shittier version of ICCup for 4-5 hours a day? All bias aside, I think anyone with any sort of logic in his or her brain would EXPECT Korean A to beat Foreigner B given all of those factors. Instead, we give progamer A maybe only a 70-75% chance to win. That in itself is unacceptable. This is not Korean bias - it's my personal bias for players who work harder. If the situation was switched, I would cry foul for the foreign side as well. SC2 cannot be compared to BW in terms of time played - SC2 in Korea started out at a much higher beginning level from many years of a similar professional level economy based RTS (BW). We're already almost a year into the game, with 13 years of BW experience in tow. Yes, I realize that the real tournament had the Koreans roflstomping most foreigners (TT1 was physically ill -_-), and the TSL had the Koreans not accomodated to higher foreign server lag, but... Here's my point: in any game where there's an extremely high skill ceiling, a professional who practices significantly more and with superior methods, with all of those additional factors I mentioned, SHOULD be regarded as the absolute favorite. Talent only goes so far at this level, especially for something as counter-intuitive as a real time strategy computer game, compared to something humans were naturally born to do, like jogging. From MJ to Kobe, from Pele to Messi, from Fisher to Kasparov - they studied, lived, and breathed their craft. MJ practiced 2x as hard as anyone else, and Kobe is always the last to leave the gym. Kasparov was regarded as having an encyclopedic knowledge of openers - having studied the game far more than almost anyone else. In BW, it's the same - JD regards practicing 100 games for a single starleague match as a bare minimum, while even most other progamers would balk at such an idea. I just hope future expansions and patches will improve upon this game. | ||
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Al ghouti
Argentina39 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
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MildSeven
Canada311 Posts
The world championship individual tournament after really shows the difference between the koreans. I think the koreans were simply taken out by surprise during the GSTL. In the actual individual series of best of 3, best of 5 etc. Almost all the non-koreans were crushed except for dimaga. And in regards to GSTL, TT1's "accomplishments" were over-exxagerated by Artosis and Tasteless' high expectations. TT1's victories, by his own account were genuinely due to mistake of others and bit of luck and primarily not off the merit of his own abilities. Even in the match against moondragon, where TT1 won it with two games of forge FE turtling into late game deathball, he looked so medicore. When faced with marineking.prime, you can really see how bad TT1 is, mentally and skillfully. Thus I think we shouldn't take too much out of the GSTL other than the fact that particular players like Dimaga and Sen and Whitera on the occasions really have the potential but probaly are still of a huge gap with the koreans in real individual series or when the Koreans adopt quickly to the foreigner's strategies. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On April 04 2011 23:45 bgx wrote: poor anypro being squeezed beetwen dimaga and july ^^ I would pay money to get a picture between Dimaga and July . They are probably the only zergs who are interesting to watch . | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On April 04 2011 18:18 Euronyme wrote: lol. We just went down 7-8. I'd say just from these results, and from the TSL, we're pretty even, judging from results atleast. I do believe that mvp especially is a class for himself though. The multitasking of that guy is through the roof. I highly recommend everyone to watch the whitera vs MC games. It was beautiful. The dimaga games also gave goose bumps, but not quite as shiny as the ra vs MC game imo. Awesome allround tournament. Dimaga was the only player who past a korean in the individual tournament . With 1 game being a BO win and 1 game outplaying Nestea . So no they are not pretty even . | ||
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