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GSL World Championship: Korea vs The World
April 3rd, 2011 23:50 GMT
Korea vs. The Worldby Divinek
Team World HuK,  Jinro,  DIMAGA, mOOnGLaDe, TT1, Sen, White-Ra, MorroWTeam KoreaMC, NesTea, MVP, July, NaDa, anypro, MarineKing, San
There was a recent news article where an interesting point was made regarding how "white dudes" compare to Koreans. Until last week, this statement may have been regarded as universally true as far as completed tournaments go. When GOM decided to host a showmatch before their World Championship event, foreigners undoubtedly decided they would show what they have.
In Brood War the reign of the Koreans was unquestioned. To take a game off any progamer was a cause for celebration and immense bragging rights. Anyone who had done so either got lucky or cheesed, or that’s what the community trolls liked to believe. Regardless of the reasons, Koreans have always seemed invincible. They’ve been capable of losing games, but never series, and even NEVER a major tournament.
In SC2 there has been no shortage of hope and determination in the foreign community. Starting fresh, they aim to never let that gap become so large again. Even so, foreigners aren't winning GSL, and they aren’t defeating top level Koreans in big live tournaments. Is this because we aren't bringing the best the world has to offer? Or is it because Korean practice houses really are as unbeatable as everyone makes them out to be? This event marks the beginning of what the world is hoping to show as proof that foreigners really can beat the best Koreans.
Artosis gives Cella a piece of his mind
As with any GSL event, this one was casted by our favourite archon. However, Artosis took on the multi-faceted role of coach and caster for this series; hardest working man in ESPORTS? This was such a great choice for team world, as an avid GSL viewer it is hard to miss (especially in foreigner games) that Artosis always tries to identify what any player could have done better in any given situation. From choosing a build on a particular map, to player selection in the team league that he did not get to participate in, seeing Artosis at the helm for the world team gave that extra ounce of potential for a real win against the Koreans.
Let’s see how the world fared.
Some say 4 is twice as much as 2, I simply wish to quantify it as AWESOME. Nobody could have predicted the foreigners would be rolling through this strongly at the end the first day. Without a doubt we have not seen the best Korea has to offer at this point; though the same might be said about The World team. Though any of the Korean team members are far from push overs, it was amazing to see the foreigners come out with such dominance at the end of day 1. Sen and TT1 really played to their potential on the first day, no doubt raising the team morale through the roof. It was astounding to watch them put away players like MarineKing and San. They weren't planning on stopping here, but Korea decided to leave all of its GSL champions for the second match day. The intensity could only increase from here, with better players creating the potential for better games.
Since this is free and anyone can view these games I implore you to do so. As a taste for those who haven't viewed this must watch series, I'll give a recap of my favourite game in hopes to get you hooked.
White-Ra vs MC White-Ra spawns at 7, with MC at 5, these protoss are close by air. White-Ra goes straight for a robo after his gateway, while MC decides on 4 warpgate into a twilight council. Why leave home without blink stalkers? The first inklings of White-Ra’s superb micro are demonstrated as he runs into MC’s force near the tower, leaving the exchange even despite the initial positioning. White-Ra is forced into the defensive position of holding his ramp, but that’s not quite what he had in mind. Utilizing the rarely seen warp prism, he drops 2 zealots into the mineral line of MC while warping additional zealots in. MC uses this timing to try and break the ramp of White-Ra. Unfortunately White-Ra misplaces the force field allowing the units of MC to blink and or stream into his base. Fortunately a second immortal pops allowing enough time for the warp prism to fly back and drop the few zealots that made the difference in holding this attack. White-Ra uses every bit of micro he has, continuing to use the warp prism to bypass force fields as he has MC on the retreat. The two scrap back and forth at White-Ra’s ramp while he seems on the brink of defeat if not for his amazing micro against this GSL champion. Once the dust has settled for a moment, a quick look at the economies tells us White-Ra is in the lead due to MC skimping for his attack. MC shows us some cute micro of his own, if only for scouting; somehow managing to get a blink stalker into and out of White-Ra’s base without losing it. White-Ra has no patience for these cute tricks, continuing to use the warp prism for zealot drops in MC’s mineral line. Following the tempo and distraction from his aggression White-Ra expands on his 30 supply lead. Once MC tries to follow suit White-Ra bulldozes through the main, his colossi trampling force fields, while the warp prism drops the mineral line yet again. The two time GSL champion has no choice but to tap out. He's so manner it blurs his face to taunt
The first important thing to note from this second day is that in the game between Dimaga and MVP, there was a technical issue where MVP dropped causing a regame. Thankfully this was in a situation where the winner was unclear and no one was weaseled out of victory. Unfortunately this was a spectacular game that was moments from reaching its deciding battle. Dimaga decided to end the regame rather quickly, perhaps not wanting to tire himself out in another macro-fest.
While July may have lost the most recent GSL finals in a convincing fashion, he demonstrated here how good he normally is under pressure. It seems plausible that without July's hero effort, Korea may have actually lost this series.
Did the foreigners technically win today? No. However, I feel they won on every other possible front. GSL champions were dismantled, fearsome code S players were trounced; this series went to the final game. The Koreans edged this competition out by the skin of their teeth, and they may not be so fortunate next time. Will the foreigners continue closing the gap, or did the winds favour their play on this day? I hope these world championships are continued, so the rest of the world can fully bring it to the Koreans. Hopefully they can pull it to the point where it's not "koreans own white dudes", but instead "dudes own other dudes". Here's looking forward to a future in equality within Starcraft, where the best players will be known more by name than nationality.
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awsome. was alot of fun
is there a bigger version of the last picture?
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United States4126 Posts
On April 04 2011 08:52 Marke wrote:
awsome .
is there a bigger version of the last picture?
You can watch the video on gomtv.net and screenshot it on HQ 
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Great! Its great to see how well the NA and EU players have played against the Koreans.
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On April 04 2011 08:53 Kinky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 08:52 Marke wrote:
awsome .
is there a bigger version of the last picture? You can watch the video on gomtv.net and screenshot it on HQ
u can take the screenshot too and share with all of us...
i really missed the ancient spirit of tl.net =/
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the Korean netizen responses to foreigners has also been very welcoming and optimistic
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Good write up! Makes me almost shed a tear to think how far things have come ^__^:b
So amazing to see the foreigner scene scaling more appropriately in SC2 than in SC1 :D
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Amazing writeup!! Let's see some more "non Koreans" move on to GSL now :D
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this was such an important event to legitimize global sc2 imo. great event really
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dimaga played awesome tbh
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Did MarineKing switch to protoss?
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amazing
wish u had made a recap of dimaga vs july, epic
//tx
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MVP pretty much won that disc'd game frankly, to say otherwise is pretty blatantly biased.
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I was impressed with Dimaga's play. I am also surprised on how close the score was. GG's.
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Nice writeup. Was so sick watching, hopefully something similar can be held again sometime
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Here's hoping the team showmatch was more indicative of things to come than the individual league 
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Nerdgasm. Great write-up as always.
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Awesome writeup <3
naww whiteraw best manner :D his face
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Katowice25012 Posts
On April 04 2011 09:15 Cocoba wrote:
Did MarineKing switch to protoss?
Whoops! Didn't catch that, TLPD was pointing to his BW games. Fixed.
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That was an awesome tournament MC vs WhiteRa was sick, it's gonna be sick in TSL3!!!
I loved the games, I hope we get more of this kind of tournaments!!!
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On April 04 2011 09:26 heyoka wrote:Whoops! Didn't catch that, TLPD was pointing to his BW games. Fixed.
Still not fixed, MKP still playing as protoss.
In the series. Not his first introduction TLPD.
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On April 04 2011 09:15 Cocoba wrote:
Did MarineKing switch to protoss?
It's his BW TLPD
MKP still listed as toss on OP
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can someone please tell me where I can find a good organized link source for these vids?
If they are free of course.
Thank you
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On April 04 2011 09:35 DarkGeneral wrote:
can someone please tell me where I can find a good organized link source for these vids?
If they are free of course.
Thank you
im not sure if I entirely understand your question but they're all up at
gomtv.net
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Great writeup, it was such an epic team match.
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"MVP dropped causing a regame. Thankfully this was in a situation where the winner was unclear "
LOL....I don''t know how many game you have watched, but a player in gold league would've known who the winner was. Being biased in front of an audience who understand starcraft.
User was warned for this post
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Great write-up.
The MC/White-Ra game was insane with the warp-prism play. The last picture looks like it could be a stock photo for some kind of cultural diversity poster. They were definitely some good games.
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Great event to globalize sc2.
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Great write-up, gogo World (?)
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nice writeup, really did enjoy these games..
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Can't believe people kept saying that the Dimaga vs MVP game was still "up in the air." Sure, Dimaga may have come back and won, but he was at an overwhelming disadvantage to say the least.
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How so? He had finished his spire and drops, the only anti air MVP had were a couple of marines and those BCs attacking the expo could easily be NPed
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the artosis and cella picture was LOL
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Whitera will always be a hero in my opinion. Dimaga represented pretty hard too. Insane.
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The tournament was great and the write up was good other than the fact that almost all of it was hoping that foreigners would win, not that good games would be shown.
I've followed bw since its baby stages so i know where the whole foreigner vs korea mentality comes from but I'm not sure it should be carried over to sc2. A lot of casual fans I know are turned off by the fact that every player but a ethnic korean is called a foreigner and not given credit, and on the flip side a lot of korean american casual fans hate how there seems to be monumental pressure for koreans to lose.
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On April 04 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:
Can't believe people kept saying that the Dimaga vs MVP game was still "up in the air." Sure, Dimaga may have come back and won, but he was at an overwhelming disadvantage to say the least.
Him being able to come back makes it completely up in the air. As all us starcraft lovers know an advantage does not always mean you win. The most entertaining games of all involve come backs!
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Too bad the following tournament with money involved dampens these results by quite a bit.
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Really, a fantastic write up. Thanks so much.
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On April 04 2011 10:10 Kar98 wrote:
How so? He had finished his spire and drops, the only anti air MVP had were a couple of marines and those BCs attacking the expo could easily be NPed
Mind you:
MVP had many thousand minerals and gas in bank., 20 rax(can build a lot marines every 25 seconds, as you know), 10+ orbital and PFs, more mining bases, larger army, BCs.
While dimaga had a few hundred minerals and gas in bank, fewer bases, a new base just got denied by marauder drop.
Do you know how biased you are?
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Even Dimaga admitted in his interview that that game probably should have been given to MVP.
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now look at when try in the real tournament t.t
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Great writeup (as always here on tl it seems). Thanks as usual, really enjoyed it.
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One of my favorite tournaments so far in SC2! thanks for the coverage, divinek!
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On April 04 2011 10:10 Kar98 wrote:
How so? He had finished his spire and drops, the only anti air MVP had were a couple of marines and those BCs attacking the expo could easily be NPed
The spire wasn't quite done yet IIRC. Not sure if the infestors had any energy and I thought MVP still had more tanks out by his PFs. I'd say it was definitely a regame situation, but it was more like 70-75% won by MVP than 50/50.
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Everyone should know by now that team matches meant nothing. They were only showmatches. When real tournament started only Dimaga actually managed to achieve something worth to mention.
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koreans are still ahead, just not as much as they were in BW
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Wonderful article. I think this is definitely correct in most regards. However, the quality-to-quantity ratio of high caliber players clearly still resides in Korea imo.
Look what Boxer did with some already talented Korean sc2 potential and some hard work. If the foreigners wish to compete and stay (imo catch up)on the same level as the Korean scene, pro gaming will have to become a job in the west. That can happen if sponsorships from the growth of e-sports here continues, but serious communities will have to really consider new talent as players show themselves.
Gaming "clans" or "teams" will really have to work to be a constructive group of talent, rather than simply a banner for people to cheer for and a logo for advertisers to flaunt their wares.
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Watched some of the games on GOM before life took over... What an awesome tournament, great to see WhiteRa, even in his "old" age, take down MC.
Of course, that July run was scarily good, what a hero comeback.
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i think the op is a bit misleading to people who don't follow the gom world championships. everyone should know by now that the team league was a showmatch, as it was literally named. i think both foreigners and koreans weren't playing their best (aka revealing their best builds) since they don't want to reveal their best builds until the actual tournament where it matters ($$$). i don't know about the gsl, but i've watched a lot of exhibition matches in tennis and i know the scorelines are predetermined before the match to make it more entertaining (so instead of 6-3, 6-4 it would be like 6-4, 4-6, 7-6). not saying it was but raising the possibility. we already know in the single tournament, no foreigner but Dimaga actually showed something worth mentioning so i would say koreans are still ahead, obviously not as much as in BW.
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you know what? Marineking is laddering as a protoss.
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This tournament shows how much more entertaining teamleagues are. Hopefully we see more team tournaments, there are too much individual ones imo.
In regards to the MVP vs Dimaga game 1, I think MVP had that game 90%. Dimaga couldve so easily won that game if he had switched to mass muta after the first one or two ultralisk attacks. He did eventually build a spire, but the game was over by then.
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that last picture is like a collection of the most awesome sc2 players (imo) in the world.. such a good iniative and such a good result. I think it was White-Ra who said that winning wasnt the most important, but showing good mathces. Mission accomplished if you ask me.
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Canada1047 Posts
On April 04 2011 10:44 Steamroller wrote:
Everyone should know by now that team matches meant nothing. They were only showmatches. When real tournament started only Dimaga actually managed to achieve something worth to mention.
Disagree. Those "show" team matches were some of the best games I've ever seen.
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These games were very exciting for sure !
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Great writeup and awesome tournament ^^!
Too bad our two superawesome nerdballers IdrA & Naniwa weren't there to help out our cause. 
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On April 04 2011 11:06 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 10:44 Steamroller wrote:
Everyone should know by now that team matches meant nothing. They were only showmatches. When real tournament started only Dimaga actually managed to achieve something worth to mention. Disagree. Those "show" team matches were some of the best games I've ever seen.
Well, I'm sure there have been plenty of unbelievable practice games in the IM, oGs, or Startale houses, but that doesn't mean they meant anything
Dimaga was totally sick against Nestea though. It's doubtful that the Koreans could ever pull as far ahead again as they did in Brood War; remember when Stork went 1 base Scout against Koll and won seemingly without effort? So depressing.
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This is awesome, this was never even fathomable in BW. It's not only great that we have foreigners so close in skill level with the koreans, but just the fact we have major events like this. Pretty incredible.
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Any bigger versions of the last pics with player names?
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Great writeup for such a fantastic event. I hope for more of these tournaments in the future, or event just more Koreans taking on foreigners more often in tournaments.
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Nice write-up, gj as usual
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Honestly I love these koreans vs the world matches in the GSL and TSL. I get more nerd chills from watching them than from watching any other matches.
A part of me wonders if the koreans tried their hardest though >_>. I'm not trying to discredit any of the foreigner's wins but I recall July saying/implying that some of the other korean players on the team did not try their hardest because they did not want to reveal the strategies they planned on using in the group stage.
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United States4126 Posts
On April 04 2011 09:00 No_eL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 08:53 Kinky wrote:On April 04 2011 08:52 Marke wrote:
awsome .
is there a bigger version of the last picture? You can watch the video on gomtv.net and screenshot it on HQ u can take the screenshot too and share with all of us... i really missed the ancient spirit of tl.net =/
You do realize everyone has access to the HQ vods right?
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Unfortunately though it's still too early to say who's the best, but the tournament/excitement gap at least has been closed since BW.
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Article seems rather biased, but I guess this is to be expected from a foreigner website.
Pretty fun tournament overall, is this a yearly tournament?
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Great tournament and congrats to both sides. I just wish G1 of Dimaga vs MVP didn't drop =( whoever would have won that would have been a lot more satisfying than the replacement game. : /
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Hi, i just want to say my opinion in regard to this event. The success of the foreigners in this tournament has proved how successful esport has became, but at the same time, it shows how starcraft 2 is not as competitive as it should be (like broodwar, but let's not start another BW vs SC2 thread). Explain how the koreans, who practiced more than 12 hours a day, having proper teamates, practice house, and having an extremely competitive environment, still managed to lose 7 games to the foreigner who don't practice as much and most of them don't even have a proper team (i want to clarify what i meant is that they don't have team house and such that makes communicating much more difficult for practicing). So how were they managed to lose like that? It just shows how volatile SC2 is, even though i'm happy for the esport, but as a starcraft fan, i feel quite sad. Hopefully, they will figure this game out quickly and make it much more competive like it should be.
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On April 04 2011 12:01 Docmedical wrote:
Article seems rather biased, but I guess this is to be expected from a foreigner website.
Pretty fun tournament overall, is this a yearly tournament?
agreeded
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The WCTL was amazing. I wish the Ro16 had a 5 game series instead of a 3 game one though.
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Dont know if this has been posted yet but Doa took a picture aswell:
![[image loading]](http://picupload.org/i/9d92162e827b.jpg)
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
was there any prize for this korea was the world team event? I felt like the koreans did not put 100% effort into this event, they were laughing a lot and even hinted by July's interview that his teammates seem to slack off a bit. Koreans at the moment are dominating the individual event with money on the line.
nevertheless, it was a fun series to watch
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On April 04 2011 12:41 illsick wrote:was there any prize for this korea was the world team event? I felt like the koreans did not put 100% effort into this event, they were laughing a lot and even hinted by July's interview that his teammates seem to slack off a bit. Koreans at the moment are dominating the individual event with money on the line. nevertheless, it was a fun series to watch
Nope, there was nothing but PRIDE on the line for the team showmatch, so the Koreans ought to be thankful July saved them. It sounds awfully weak when you come out with "Yeah you won but we weren't really trying....", much better for them to win but have it be close when they aren't trying
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On April 04 2011 12:47 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 12:41 illsick wrote:was there any prize for this korea was the world team event? I felt like the koreans did not put 100% effort into this event, they were laughing a lot and even hinted by July's interview that his teammates seem to slack off a bit. Koreans at the moment are dominating the individual event with money on the line. nevertheless, it was a fun series to watch Nope, there was nothing but PRIDE on the line for the team showmatch, so the Koreans ought to be thankful July saved them. It sounds awfully weak when you come out with "Yeah you won but we weren't really trying....", much better for them to win but have it be close when they aren't trying
agreed. they sure as hell weren't trying to LOSE games.
foreigner - korean gap is smaller than ever.
maybe one day we get a gun foreigner who just beats all. =(
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lol @ MC's asian squat =P
nice picture though!
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My boy ManZenith looking super awkward in the group picture as usual. ALWAYS bet on San!
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On April 04 2011 10:21 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 10:07 FabledIntegral wrote:
Can't believe people kept saying that the Dimaga vs MVP game was still "up in the air." Sure, Dimaga may have come back and won, but he was at an overwhelming disadvantage to say the least. Him being able to come back makes it completely up in the air. As all us starcraft lovers know an advantage does not always mean you win. The most entertaining games of all involve come backs!
It doesn't always mean you win, but MVP had enough of an advantage that a "fair" result would have been giving the game to MVP. MVP had like 5k minerals in the bank, killer army, and like 10+ planetaries lining the middle. He probably would have started sacking SCVs too. Able to come back? Possibly. He was still an an overwhelming disadvantage. The way the article is written just reeks of a biased perspective.
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Excellent writeup, thanks. That series was amazing. I think it was the most thrilled I've ever been for an SC match. Looking forward to the next one! And it's nice to see the foreigners prove that they are easily in the same class as the top Korean pros.
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such a great series to watch
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On April 04 2011 12:09 brachester wrote:
Hi, i just want to say my opinion in regard to this event. The success of the foreigners in this tournament has proved how successful esport has became, but at the same time, it shows how starcraft 2 is not as competitive as it should be (like broodwar, but let's not start another BW vs SC2 thread). Explain how the koreans, who practiced more than 12 hours a day, having proper teamates, practice house, and having an extremely competitive environment, still managed to lose 7 games to the foreigner who don't practice as much and most of them don't even have a proper team (i want to clarify what i meant is that they don't have team house and such that makes communicating much more difficult for practicing). So how were they managed to lose like that? It just shows how volatile SC2 is, even though i'm happy for the esport, but as a starcraft fan, i feel quite sad. Hopefully, they will figure this game out quickly and make it much more competive like it should be.
I agree; the incredible amount of practice and effort put in by players in team houses doesn't produce the results, at least to the same magnitude, as it did in BW. If it were the case, every TL member who trained with oGs would return to foreign tournaments considerably better than most of the other competition, much like IdrA was after practicing for so long in the CJ house. It's like ret said on a SotG, "before when I was in Korea I felt my mechanics constantly improving, but now I feel that level of practice is not needed" before he left the house (or something to that extent).
It's a great feeling to have foreigners be on a closer skill level to Koreans, but think of it not as Foreign vs Korea but as such: players who play on their own--oftentimes while having other responsibilities or occupations--versus players who live together, train together, exist in a StarCraft-oriented environment almost all of the time.
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This was a great show, no doubt. Thanks to GOM a loooooooooot for doing this event
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eh kinda forgot this is happening!!!
sc2 foreign scene seem to skyrocketed
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Very nice write up. I really liked how you described the White-Ra vs MC game. I hope you can do more detailed stories like this for the other games of interest.
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good write up! this was a sick series. probably my favorite so far. DIMAGA SEn and july all played like beasts. The white ra vs MC game is the only PvP i have enjoyed watching too lol
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i hope in the future, koreans will dominate 8-0 in this event.
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Nice writeup, Really Awesome tournament!
I especially liked how Sen, July and DIMAGA showed awesome Zerg play at a point i considered Zerg as "weakest" race. Awesome! 
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what a great series.
dimaga's play in particular was just inspiring.
im not sure how seriously the koreans were taking this leg of the championships, but they definitely weren't any more impressive than the world team.
kudos to all involved, spectacular event.
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Korean obviously hold back during this event. MKP trashed Sen and TT1 so hard in the individual championship. The top 8 are 6 Koreans and 2 foreigners ( 1 got in because it is foreigner vs. foreigner ). The result indicates that Korean is still ahead.
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i enjoyed this a lot but the GSTL is still my favorite event ^^
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On April 04 2011 14:46 battleplace wrote:
the real MVP is Julyzerg
I thought MVP was the MVP =D
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awesome players and awesome tournament
I like team battles a lot
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Dudes definitely own other dudes.
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United States7483 Posts
I personally feel that looking at all the names up there, the one that surprised me most in a positive way was TT1. I knew he was good, but he did a lot better than I expected him too, and in a pleasant way.
I'm just sad that Jinro and HuK didn't manage to win a game >_<
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Awesome! I will have to go back and watch the games when I have time. Awesome results, congrats to the international players and Artosis, congrats to the Korean team and thanks for the writeup!
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At least this event got some coverage... but I feel GSL coverage has been lacking lately. Unless I totally missed it, there were no recaps of last GSL finals, nor Up/Down Matches, or even the GSTL.
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/heyoka/gsl/artosis.jpg)
This has got to be the best picture ever. Every detail in the picture is great. From Artosis's determined look, to Cella's subtle uncomfortable shift, and to Dimaga's awesome banana grin xD
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Thanks for the write up. Haven't seen coverage on the GSL for a while sides from the Finals.
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On April 04 2011 13:59 rift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 12:09 brachester wrote:
Hi, i just want to say my opinion in regard to this event. The success of the foreigners in this tournament has proved how successful esport has became, but at the same time, it shows how starcraft 2 is not as competitive as it should be (like broodwar, but let's not start another BW vs SC2 thread). Explain how the koreans, who practiced more than 12 hours a day, having proper teamates, practice house, and having an extremely competitive environment, still managed to lose 7 games to the foreigner who don't practice as much and most of them don't even have a proper team (i want to clarify what i meant is that they don't have team house and such that makes communicating much more difficult for practicing). So how were they managed to lose like that? It just shows how volatile SC2 is, even though i'm happy for the esport, but as a starcraft fan, i feel quite sad. Hopefully, they will figure this game out quickly and make it much more competive like it should be. I agree; the incredible amount of practice and effort put in by players in team houses doesn't produce the results, at least to the same magnitude, as it did in BW. If it were the case, every TL member who trained with oGs would return to foreign tournaments considerably better than most of the other competition, much like IdrA was after practicing for so long in the CJ house. It's like ret said on a SotG, "before when I was in Korea I felt my mechanics constantly improving, but now I feel that level of practice is not needed" before he left the house (or something to that extent). It's a great feeling to have foreigners be on a closer skill level to Koreans, but think of it not as Foreign vs Korea but as such: players who play on their own--oftentimes while having other responsibilities or occupations--versus players who live together, train together, exist in a StarCraft-oriented environment almost all of the time.
SC2 certainly isn't as competitive as BW and foreigners are closer to Koreans, but I wouldn't go that far. The Koreans were holding back at least some of their strategies during the Team League, and when money was on the line...well, the individuals' tournament really didn't look that good for foreigners.
...Still, it was much more even than BW.
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I guess in Brood War there were still white dude heroes at this point in its development, like GiYom and Slayer, but that's probably not a fair comparison since Korea hadn't developed the kind of progamer scene it ended up with and they got the game pretty late(when dudes like Maynard were tearing it up, lol)
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On April 04 2011 10:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
koreans are still ahead, just not as much as they were in BW
lol. We just went down 7-8. I'd say just from these results, and from the TSL, we're pretty even, judging from results atleast.
I do believe that mvp especially is a class for himself though. The multitasking of that guy is through the roof.
I highly recommend everyone to watch the whitera vs MC games. It was beautiful.
The dimaga games also gave goose bumps, but not quite as shiny as the ra vs MC game imo.
Awesome allround tournament.
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That last picture is really touching.
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An awesome event for an urgent cause.
Too bad the donations weren't mind blowing.
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Loved the every single game from this tournament. I never grew tired of watching the foreigners compete with the top Koreans and doing so well!
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Poland3748 Posts
The fact that 49million country can actually win against players from Europe, North America and China means that their training regiment is way ahead of anything the rest of the world has to offer. Interesting part is that HuK and Jinro are the only foreigners playing in GSL Code S and yet they both lost their games.
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In my own personal opinion it would have been 6-8 had they not had to regame :/.
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Unfortunately Koreans still seem to own white dudes. The team event wasn't taken serious really by the koreans which showed in some of the tactics and interviews about it. For example MVP went BC in the game he dropped because it would be an awesome way to play and San also went carrier earlier which he probably wouldn't do in a personal league.
Teamleagues are also a horrible way to gauge skill as there is no way you can prepare or respond to an opponent in them. You face an unknown opponent in a BO1 and if you win the other team can send out someone prepared for you... The entire format is made to cause upsets which makes it fun to watch but also off relatively no meaning to actual skill of teams and players involved. The top players don't take these teamleagues serious yet and really why should they? Sometimes they show up without even having to play...
In most personal events koreans outperformed non-koreans by quite a bit with the exception of TSL. TSL itself really seems to give hope that the gap isn't as big (yet) but then again the lagfactor is hard to exclude from that tournament. Lag might not have been that bad but koreans aren't used to playing with it so they had a relative disadvantage in that way.
The best way to gauge difference between the koreans and the rest will probably be the NASL. The proportion of koreans (8 out of 50?) and the number of games are both big enough to actually get some sensible data from that tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if all the koreans end up placing top 3 of their group there which will show that they truly stand alone skillwise.
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On April 04 2011 17:31 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 13:59 rift wrote:On April 04 2011 12:09 brachester wrote:
Hi, i just want to say my opinion in regard to this event. The success of the foreigners in this tournament has proved how successful esport has became, but at the same time, it shows how starcraft 2 is not as competitive as it should be (like broodwar, but let's not start another BW vs SC2 thread). Explain how the koreans, who practiced more than 12 hours a day, having proper teamates, practice house, and having an extremely competitive environment, still managed to lose 7 games to the foreigner who don't practice as much and most of them don't even have a proper team (i want to clarify what i meant is that they don't have team house and such that makes communicating much more difficult for practicing). So how were they managed to lose like that? It just shows how volatile SC2 is, even though i'm happy for the esport, but as a starcraft fan, i feel quite sad. Hopefully, they will figure this game out quickly and make it much more competive like it should be. I agree; the incredible amount of practice and effort put in by players in team houses doesn't produce the results, at least to the same magnitude, as it did in BW. If it were the case, every TL member who trained with oGs would return to foreign tournaments considerably better than most of the other competition, much like IdrA was after practicing for so long in the CJ house. It's like ret said on a SotG, "before when I was in Korea I felt my mechanics constantly improving, but now I feel that level of practice is not needed" before he left the house (or something to that extent). It's a great feeling to have foreigners be on a closer skill level to Koreans, but think of it not as Foreign vs Korea but as such: players who play on their own--oftentimes while having other responsibilities or occupations--versus players who live together, train together, exist in a StarCraft-oriented environment almost all of the time. SC2 certainly isn't as competitive as BW and foreigners are closer to Koreans, but I wouldn't go that far. The Koreans were holding back at least some of their strategies during the Team League, and when money was on the line...well, the individuals' tournament really didn't look that good for foreigners. ...Still, it was much more even than BW.
I'd have to agree with the quotes quoted above you bud.
Back in the day of Gi Yeom Patrick and the old school players, I do not think there actually was an established E-Sports pro scene. (and therefore no practice house, practice coaches, etc)
Therefore now, even though SC2 is still quite young, they pretty much had those practice settings right off the bat, yet they only produced such results.
It shows how 'less-comparative' SC2 has become.
It's good on one side that any normal Joes like u and I can reproduce what the pros do, but it really it sad to see on the competitive pro side of SC2 scene.
And I gotta ask the fellow who puts the foreign scene on the same level with Korean one.
What do you have to say about the individual league result? (for the foreigners)
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On April 04 2011 22:26 Markwerf wrote:
Unfortunately Koreans still seem to own white dudes. The team event wasn't taken serious really by the koreans which showed in some of the tactics and interviews about it. For example MVP went BC in the game he dropped because it would be an awesome way to play and San also went carrier earlier which he probably wouldn't do in a personal league.
Teamleagues are also a horrible way to gauge skill as there is no way you can prepare or respond to an opponent in them. You face an unknown opponent in a BO1 and if you win the other team can send out someone prepared for you... The entire format is made to cause upsets which makes it fun to watch but also off relatively no meaning to actual skill of teams and players involved. The top players don't take these teamleagues serious yet and really why should they? Sometimes they show up without even having to play...
In most personal events koreans outperformed non-koreans by quite a bit with the exception of TSL. TSL itself really seems to give hope that the gap isn't as big (yet) but then again the lagfactor is hard to exclude from that tournament. Lag might not have been that bad but koreans aren't used to playing with it so they had a relative disadvantage in that way.
The best way to gauge difference between the koreans and the rest will probably be the NASL. The proportion of koreans (8 out of 50?) and the number of games are both big enough to actually get some sensible data from that tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if all the koreans end up placing top 3 of their group there which will show that they truly stand alone skillwise.
Totally agree with your post.
I personally feel though, that bigger the player numbers become, the more advantageous Koreans are gonna be. If there's one remaining advantage from their E-sports infra, it's that they have more pro players. (ie. more competition level players)
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On April 04 2011 21:23 nimdil wrote:
The fact that 49million country can actually win against players from Europe, North America and China means that their training regiment is way ahead of anything the rest of the world has to offer. Interesting part is that HuK and Jinro are the only foreigners playing in GSL Code S and yet they both lost their games.
I think everything points to the game being extremely volatile. Like a few previous posters pointed out, progamers who practice twice as much, who live in a gaming culture that figuratively breathes Starcraft, has a NATIONAL media that recognizes the legitimacy of Starcraft as a real sport (although perhaps not SC2 yet), and just an overall culture of EXTREME hard workers - why can't they STILL pull significantly ahead of a bunch of ragtag gamers who basically practice on a shittier version of ICCup for 4-5 hours a day? All bias aside, I think anyone with any sort of logic in his or her brain would EXPECT Korean A to beat Foreigner B given all of those factors. Instead, we give progamer A maybe only a 70-75% chance to win. That in itself is unacceptable. This is not Korean bias - it's my personal bias for players who work harder. If the situation was switched, I would cry foul for the foreign side as well. SC2 cannot be compared to BW in terms of time played - SC2 in Korea started out at a much higher beginning level from many years of a similar professional level economy based RTS (BW). We're already almost a year into the game, with 13 years of BW experience in tow.
Yes, I realize that the real tournament had the Koreans roflstomping most foreigners (TT1 was physically ill -_-), and the TSL had the Koreans not accomodated to higher foreign server lag, but...
Here's my point: in any game where there's an extremely high skill ceiling, a professional who practices significantly more and with superior methods, with all of those additional factors I mentioned, SHOULD be regarded as the absolute favorite. Talent only goes so far at this level, especially for something as counter-intuitive as a real time strategy computer game, compared to something humans were naturally born to do, like jogging. From MJ to Kobe, from Pele to Messi, from Fisher to Kasparov - they studied, lived, and breathed their craft. MJ practiced 2x as hard as anyone else, and Kobe is always the last to leave the gym. Kasparov was regarded as having an encyclopedic knowledge of openers - having studied the game far more than almost anyone else. In BW, it's the same - JD regards practicing 100 games for a single starleague match as a bare minimum, while even most other progamers would balk at such an idea.
I just hope future expansions and patches will improve upon this game.
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Sick series played... really nice matches
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poor anypro being squeezed beetwen dimaga and july ^^
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As impressed and happy as i was about the GSTL's results, especially in regards to foreigner's performance, this article seems a little over-eager in exxagerating the foreigner's skills.
The world championship individual tournament after really shows the difference between the koreans. I think the koreans were simply taken out by surprise during the GSTL. In the actual individual series of best of 3, best of 5 etc. Almost all the non-koreans were crushed except for dimaga.
And in regards to GSTL, TT1's "accomplishments" were over-exxagerated by Artosis and Tasteless' high expectations. TT1's victories, by his own account were genuinely due to mistake of others and bit of luck and primarily not off the merit of his own abilities. Even in the match against moondragon, where TT1 won it with two games of forge FE turtling into late game deathball, he looked so medicore.
When faced with marineking.prime, you can really see how bad TT1 is, mentally and skillfully.
Thus I think we shouldn't take too much out of the GSTL other than the fact that particular players like Dimaga and Sen and Whitera on the occasions really have the potential but probaly are still of a huge gap with the koreans in real individual series or when the Koreans adopt quickly to the foreigner's strategies.
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On April 04 2011 23:45 bgx wrote:
poor anypro being squeezed beetwen dimaga and july ^^
I would pay money to get a picture between Dimaga and July . They are probably the only zergs who are interesting to watch .
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On April 04 2011 18:18 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 10:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
koreans are still ahead, just not as much as they were in BW lol. We just went down 7-8. I'd say just from these results, and from the TSL, we're pretty even, judging from results atleast. I do believe that mvp especially is a class for himself though. The multitasking of that guy is through the roof. I highly recommend everyone to watch the whitera vs MC games. It was beautiful. The dimaga games also gave goose bumps, but not quite as shiny as the ra vs MC game imo. Awesome allround tournament.
Dimaga was the only player who past a korean in the individual tournament . With 1 game being a BO win and 1 game outplaying Nestea . So no they are not pretty even .
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On April 04 2011 11:15 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 11:06 lowercase wrote:On April 04 2011 10:44 Steamroller wrote:
Everyone should know by now that team matches meant nothing. They were only showmatches. When real tournament started only Dimaga actually managed to achieve something worth to mention. Disagree. Those "show" team matches were some of the best games I've ever seen. Well, I'm sure there have been plenty of unbelievable practice games in the IM, oGs, or Startale houses, but that doesn't mean they meant anything Dimaga was totally sick against Nestea though. It's doubtful that the Koreans could ever pull as far ahead again as they did in Brood War; remember when Stork went 1 base Scout against Koll and won seemingly without effort? So depressing.
That's partly because there are all sorts of units with moving shots like scouts in BW. That, and stacking air units. The more micro tricks there are, the bigger the advantage the Koreans have because they have better mechanics and multitasking.
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TT1 taking off a game from MKP is like MVP taking a game off Flash in BW
and Bomber 4-0'd WhiteRa in a showmatch and 4-2'd in a follow up match which Bomber was up 3 wins already.
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is there a vod of White-Ra vs MC game? Can't find it
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On April 05 2011 00:19 skrzmark wrote:
TT1 taking off a game from MKP is like MVP taking a game off Flash in BW
and Bomber 4-0'd WhiteRa in a showmatch and 4-2'd in a follow up match which Bomber was up 3 wins already.
Wasn't MVP at the top of the game when he left BW? OSL top 4 or something.
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Not to take anything away from any of the foreign players, but could Artosis be the great unsung hero of this tournament?
When the foreigners were matched randomly against the Koreans, only one of them took a game off the Koreans, but in the team tournament, everyone, except July was shut down within a match or two. I reckon a lot of that must be due to Artosis' coaching and player selection - knowing the playstyles of all the players involved, and who-would-be-best-at-sniping-who, and all that sort of thing.
It kinda makes me want to see a regular team tournament where Artosis could get the chance to do this sort of thing every month!
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On April 05 2011 00:27 Fyodor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 00:19 skrzmark wrote:
TT1 taking off a game from MKP is like MVP taking a game off Flash in BW
and Bomber 4-0'd WhiteRa in a showmatch and 4-2'd in a follow up match which Bomber was up 3 wins already. Wasn't MVP at the top of the game when he left BW? OSL top 4 or something.
He wasn't in the Ro4 . He was in the Ro16 or Ro8 in the MSL and managed to take a game off Flash . That what his best performance , but when he switched MVP was way below his top level .
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United States4796 Posts
Beautiful writeup, Divinek!
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Nice writeup The world champs team league has been im fav event so far by gom, hope they do it again
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Can I make a suggestion?
I would be nice if you put "The VODS for this event is for FREE and avaliable on gomtv.net" in HUGE BOLD RED letters... I think some(I daresay many) people did not watch it because they thought they needed to pay or something...
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Thanks for the write-up! This was a great watch, and I hope the Korean and foreigner players get together more in the future.
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Nice to see foreigners doing so well. Although they didn't make it very far on the random brackets.
Unfortunately, imo the gap between koreans and foreigners will only grow bigger. I say that cuz I believe sc2 is still very "abstract"... it's probably going to get more and more "concrete" over time, and once there are very solid playstyles (like in BW), and the game turns almost completely to micro/macro, the koreans will rape everyone mercylessly. That's just what I think anyway... Nice write-up btw!
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"The first important thing to note from this second day is that in the game between Dimaga and MVP, there was a technical issue where MVP dropped causing a regame. Thankfully this was in a situation where the winner was unclear and no one was weaseled out of victory."
I read the first page but don't have time to read the entire thread, so I'm sure other people have commented on this, but I just wanted to point out my disappointment in this comment. I've watched every single GSL game since the start of GSL1, and am a pretty competent player, and there is no way Dimaga was winning that game. I was cheering for Dimaga (like most everyone else), but in a community that prides itself on being passionate and knowledgeable about this game, I'm disappointed to see such a dismissal of reality. His advantage in this game was comparable to the MLG game between Naniwa and Select, where the correct call was made, in my opinion. If this was a serious individual tournament for prize money rather than an exhibition, I believe MVP would have been awarded the win.
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On April 04 2011 23:51 MildSeven wrote:
As impressed and happy as i was about the GSTL's results, especially in regards to foreigner's performance, this article seems a little over-eager in exxagerating the foreigner's skills.
The world championship individual tournament after really shows the difference between the koreans. I think the koreans were simply taken out by surprise during the GSTL. In the actual individual series of best of 3, best of 5 etc. Almost all the non-koreans were crushed except for dimaga.
And in regards to GSTL, TT1's "accomplishments" were over-exxagerated by Artosis and Tasteless' high expectations. TT1's victories, by his own account were genuinely due to mistake of others and bit of luck and primarily not off the merit of his own abilities. Even in the match against moondragon, where TT1 won it with two games of forge FE turtling into late game deathball, he looked so medicore.
When faced with marineking.prime, you can really see how bad TT1 is, mentally and skillfully.
Thus I think we shouldn't take too much out of the GSTL other than the fact that particular players like Dimaga and Sen and Whitera on the occasions really have the potential but probaly are still of a huge gap with the koreans in real individual series or when the Koreans adopt quickly to the foreigner's strategies.
I don't necessarily think the gap is huge but there definitely is a visible gap when looking at individual leagues. For the most part, I agree 100% though. While I thought it was just the community, some of the reporting seems to show a bit of foreigner bias as well haha.
On April 05 2011 00:09 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 23:45 bgx wrote:
poor anypro being squeezed beetwen dimaga and july ^^ I would pay money to get a picture between Dimaga and July . They are probably the only zergs who are interesting to watch .
Kyrix is pretty fun to watch when he's on his game..
On April 05 2011 00:13 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 18:18 Euronyme wrote:On April 04 2011 10:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:
koreans are still ahead, just not as much as they were in BW lol. We just went down 7-8. I'd say just from these results, and from the TSL, we're pretty even, judging from results atleast. I do believe that mvp especially is a class for himself though. The multitasking of that guy is through the roof. I highly recommend everyone to watch the whitera vs MC games. It was beautiful. The dimaga games also gave goose bumps, but not quite as shiny as the ra vs MC game imo. Awesome allround tournament. Dimaga was the only player who past a korean in the individual tournament . With 1 game being a BO win and 1 game outplaying Nestea . So no they are not pretty even .
not to mention the lag fiasco in TSL
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LOL the article starts off with a race reference how awesome..
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It was a great tournament to watch.. The first world team vs korean team part was the best imo.. WhiteRa beating MC and DIMAGA's overall performance will be remembered.. :D Hope to see another more GSL WCs in the future..
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Those matches were just amazing, thanks for the feedback TL =]
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On April 05 2011 00:13 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 11:15 Turgid wrote:On April 04 2011 11:06 lowercase wrote:On April 04 2011 10:44 Steamroller wrote:
Everyone should know by now that team matches meant nothing. They were only showmatches. When real tournament started only Dimaga actually managed to achieve something worth to mention. Disagree. Those "show" team matches were some of the best games I've ever seen. Well, I'm sure there have been plenty of unbelievable practice games in the IM, oGs, or Startale houses, but that doesn't mean they meant anything Dimaga was totally sick against Nestea though. It's doubtful that the Koreans could ever pull as far ahead again as they did in Brood War; remember when Stork went 1 base Scout against Koll and won seemingly without effort? So depressing. That's partly because there are all sorts of units with moving shots like scouts in BW. That, and stacking air units. The more micro tricks there are, the bigger the advantage the Koreans have because they have better mechanics and multitasking.
This makes more sense when referring to broodwars, but it seems to be the opposite case in sc2 as the foreigners seem to be more micro oriented. I have a feeling it's the fact that many foreigners were top in wc3, and wc3 players have excellent micro.
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Do you have more photos of the event???
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this event was amazing. i've never been so excited during tournament. i lol'ed pretty hard at MC's taunt and his giant board lmao
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On April 05 2011 03:42 ed21x wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 00:13 andrewlt wrote:On April 04 2011 11:15 Turgid wrote:On April 04 2011 11:06 lowercase wrote:On April 04 2011 10:44 Steamroller wrote:
Everyone should know by now that team matches meant nothing. They were only showmatches. When real tournament started only Dimaga actually managed to achieve something worth to mention. Disagree. Those "show" team matches were some of the best games I've ever seen. Well, I'm sure there have been plenty of unbelievable practice games in the IM, oGs, or Startale houses, but that doesn't mean they meant anything Dimaga was totally sick against Nestea though. It's doubtful that the Koreans could ever pull as far ahead again as they did in Brood War; remember when Stork went 1 base Scout against Koll and won seemingly without effort? So depressing. That's partly because there are all sorts of units with moving shots like scouts in BW. That, and stacking air units. The more micro tricks there are, the bigger the advantage the Koreans have because they have better mechanics and multitasking. This makes more sense when referring to broodwars, but it seems to be the opposite case in sc2 as the foreigners seem to be more micro oriented. I have a feeling it's the fact that many foreigners were top in wc3, and wc3 players have excellent micro.
I personally don't like generalizing, but u can't possibly categorize foreigners as being strong in micro. If anything, there are much more macro oriented. Koreans out-micro foreigners, in general.
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whyare there no links to the vods?
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On April 05 2011 05:20 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:42 ed21x wrote:On April 05 2011 00:13 andrewlt wrote:On April 04 2011 11:15 Turgid wrote:On April 04 2011 11:06 lowercase wrote:On April 04 2011 10:44 Steamroller wrote:
Everyone should know by now that team matches meant nothing. They were only showmatches. When real tournament started only Dimaga actually managed to achieve something worth to mention. Disagree. Those "show" team matches were some of the best games I've ever seen. Well, I'm sure there have been plenty of unbelievable practice games in the IM, oGs, or Startale houses, but that doesn't mean they meant anything Dimaga was totally sick against Nestea though. It's doubtful that the Koreans could ever pull as far ahead again as they did in Brood War; remember when Stork went 1 base Scout against Koll and won seemingly without effort? So depressing. That's partly because there are all sorts of units with moving shots like scouts in BW. That, and stacking air units. The more micro tricks there are, the bigger the advantage the Koreans have because they have better mechanics and multitasking. This makes more sense when referring to broodwars, but it seems to be the opposite case in sc2 as the foreigners seem to be more micro oriented. I have a feeling it's the fact that many foreigners were top in wc3, and wc3 players have excellent micro. I personally don't like generalizing, but u can't possibly categorize foreigners as being strong in micro. If anything, there are much more macro oriented. Koreans out-micro foreigners, in general.
I think it's hard to be black and white about just better at macro or micro. But certainly where they came out ahead before was in their multi tasking. I remember a great quote from artosis I think? During a game of july vs some terran where july is chasing an scv with his drone and killing it while moving, ie intense micro, "any foreigner doing would have 500 minerals"
They were far far better at multi tasking in bw, being able to micro amazingly while keeping that macro in beast mode
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I liked the article. I think Koreans are slightly better than foreigners just because of their approach to the game, but just barely. I think whoever works harder, mixed with biological genius, creates the best players. And I think Koreans work very hard. Smartness/genius is worldwide, of course. Interestingly, Koreans used to have a 6 day business work week! In fact, vacation and "fun time" things like amusement parks is a pretty new thing in Korea. Now they have a 5-day work week, like we have in the West. But the point is that I think their hard work translates over to Starcraft. For example, if you study hard then you can learn the latest build orders, practice and master efficient build orders, learn the proper counters, even specific player profiles, etc. For example, if you know who Goody is you know he always (and awesomely) goes mech. But then the second aspect is being smart, like I would say TLO is a good example. You can't learn a sheer genius or smartness. I don't think I can ever play as creatively as TLO. Creativity plays a big role in Starcraft, as well as logical decision making and reasoning. Simply understanding how the system works. For example, economy. Another aspect to consider is passion for the game, and having two television channels specifically for Starcraft certainly shows some dedication, which I would argue, can create more of a passion. My friend from Korea even said, and its completely true, that being good at starcraft is cool. Like in high school, when you are awesome at starcraft, people think you are cool. Not that it matters... I hated high school anyways. Here in the US it isn't exactly cool to be good at starcraft. Which is good though, life's not about being cool =)
But even with that being said, I think the world is nearly equal with Koreans. I don't think the GSL is an accurate assessment of skill, heres why: there isn't an equal amount of world players vs. Koreans in the tournament. Let's say that the percentage of players who enter the GSL is 10% foreigners and 90% koreans. Well, chances are that Koreans will win more. Besides, Jinro made it to the quarterfinals like 2 times, right? So the percentage entering versus percent who make it to the quarter finals is pretty good right, maybe even favoring foreigners.
And I hope no one argues that only the best foreigners compete in the GSL. I mean they are good, no doubt, and Jinro is probly one of the best. But I think some of the best have not played in it. We also have to consider players in their prime. For example, a few months ago no one thought Naniwa was the best by any means, but right now at this moment in time it can be argued he is the best in Europe, maybe even the US, considering his 25-2 showing in the MLG... I think the article also should have mentioned the TSL, where there is a better percentage of Koreans vs. foreigners competing, and foreigners are doing very well. As MC said, foreigners got an upgrade hahahah. Maybe we just got lair tech. Or built a tech lab.
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Such a great series. I was actually standing up cheering at WhiteRa vs MC. And I was so incredibly disappointed with the drop in Mvp vs Dimaga (how anticlimactic!). I really hope they have more series exactly like this one in the future!
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This article paralleled Martin Luther King Jr.'s speech. ;_;
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Its funny when Whitera gets called the "grandpa-toss" or the "grandpa protoss", and when boxer, and nestea are "old" at the age of 30. (If I remember right boxer, nestea, and white-ra are 30ish)
I don't think its bad. I think its kinda cool. I can't think of any progamers older then them.
Im 22 so in starcraft years I should be having my midlife crisis soon.
I feel bad that I dont pull for the non-koreans to win. The only non-koreans I really root for are whitera, nony, and Mr. TLO.
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On April 04 2011 22:26 Markwerf wrote:
Unfortunately Koreans still seem to own white dudes. The team event wasn't taken serious really by the koreans which showed in some of the tactics and interviews about it. For example MVP went BC in the game he dropped because it would be an awesome way to play and San also went carrier earlier which he probably wouldn't do in a personal league.
Teamleagues are also a horrible way to gauge skill as there is no way you can prepare or respond to an opponent in them. You face an unknown opponent in a BO1 and if you win the other team can send out someone prepared for you... The entire format is made to cause upsets which makes it fun to watch but also off relatively no meaning to actual skill of teams and players involved. The top players don't take these teamleagues serious yet and really why should they? Sometimes they show up without even having to play...
In most personal events koreans outperformed non-koreans by quite a bit with the exception of TSL. TSL itself really seems to give hope that the gap isn't as big (yet) but then again the lagfactor is hard to exclude from that tournament. Lag might not have been that bad but koreans aren't used to playing with it so they had a relative disadvantage in that way.
The best way to gauge difference between the koreans and the rest will probably be the NASL. The proportion of koreans (8 out of 50?) and the number of games are both big enough to actually get some sensible data from that tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if all the koreans end up placing top 3 of their group there which will show that they truly stand alone skillwise.
there were also random signs too...like MVP seeming to want to scout with a lone BC lol. "PLEASE, NEURAL PARASITE ME!!!!!" MVP is not the kind of player that would throw a BC away.
look who knows if the foreigners were trying their best in the team showmatch, but it's clear the koreans weren't. cella posted here saying, hey guys what builds do you want to see, I'll do it even if we lose. MVP's comments about the BCs. the entire foreigner team's comments. hell, even posts like this is why they wanted to keep it close, IMO. how much more exciting was it because it went 9-8?
still, dimaga over nestea is still HUGE
and i don't think anyone really thinks that koreans are genetically better at sc2, why do people keep talking about how that's not true? with the proper numbers, environment, and practice, korea would be just another country in sc2.
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I think the fact no foreigners made it to the semis puts paid to the exuberance of the team event
Still, the gap is closing. And if we had more of the champion foreigners there it could have been over.
I doubt we'll ever get the 'best' in the GSL though. With the market getting larger outside Korea, there's less incentive for a top foreigner to try their hand.
To be honest I think the real question is whether or not the Koreans will end up marginalized in a year or two.
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idk if this is the right place to say it, but the marinekingprime vs OGSMC series is getting awesome!!!!!!!!!
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The Koreans aren't going to be marginalized even if the prizes are bigger outside of Korea. The game is still huge in Korea and the very best Koreans will go try and win foreign tournaments. You can never count them out.
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On April 05 2011 19:54 iamthedave wrote:I think the fact no foreigners made it to the semis puts paid to the exuberance of the team event Still, the gap is closing. And if we had more of the champion foreigners there it could have been over. I doubt we'll ever get the 'best' in the GSL though. With the market getting larger outside Korea, there's less incentive for a top foreigner to try their hand. To be honest I think the real question is whether or not the Koreans will end up marginalized in a year or two.
The gap may be closing but there is still a gap...think of it this way. What's to say that the champion foreigners would have been champs had they been playing against top Koreans in all of those events? I get the feeling that as of right now and the foreseeable future (year from now), even if the GSL were to cease to exist, we'd get a lot more results like the IEMWC.
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well, its interesting people talking about the incentive for foreigners to go compete in the GSL. I think the top foreigners are striving to be the best, not just make money, and the thing is, they know that they won't be considered the best until they go through the trial by fire in the GSL haha! I think whether or not the money is good, the best sc2 players will want to prove themselves! It's an interesting challenge.
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On April 05 2011 19:54 iamthedave wrote:I think the fact no foreigners made it to the semis puts paid to the exuberance of the team event Still, the gap is closing. And if we had more of the champion foreigners there it could have been over. I doubt we'll ever get the 'best' in the GSL though. With the market getting larger outside Korea, there's less incentive for a top foreigner to try their hand. To be honest I think the real question is whether or not the Koreans will end up marginalized in a year or two.
it's true that the market is getting larger, but without the culture there, in 7-8 years, the market will only shrink imo.
and i think any foreigner who's not just playing for the money but truly wishes to prove oneself as the best will try to compete in the GSL since GSL is still the most prestigious tournament with indisputably the highest quality of play (btw watch the GSL WC Semis!!!)
and also, any top foreigner will always have that blemish on their resume when he hasn't proved himself against the best koreans so i'm sure GSL will remain for a long while.
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On April 05 2011 01:43 OldMiser wrote:
Unfortunately, imo the gap between koreans and foreigners will only grow bigger. I say that cuz I believe sc2 is still very "abstract"... it's probably going to get more and more "concrete" over time, and once there are very solid playstyles (like in BW), and the game turns almost completely to micro/macro, the koreans will rape everyone mercylessly. That's just what I think anyway... Nice write-up btw!
That's very sad, but may be true.
The closest the game gets to being just micro/macro mechanics, the farthest it gets from being a strategy game, IMO.
Is there a way for the designers to guarantee a margin of abstraction in the game? Because that's what makes the game beautiful.
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This was a fun event and regardless of how serious a person takes it, it was highly entertaining.
Thanks for the recap write-up!
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Very nice Writeup, and some of the most interesting matches i've seen so far in sc2.
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white-ra vs MC game was one of the best games of SC in any form ive ever seen
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I am genuinely sorry for the necro-bump, but I NEED to find these vods. Does anyone know where there are hosted in all their glory?
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/heyoka/gsl/WCTLBan.jpg)
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![[image loading]](/staff/heyoka/gsl/artosis.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Divinek/GSL_WC/whiteramc1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Divinek/GSL_WC/whiteramc2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Divinek/GSL_WC/whiteramc3.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Divinek/GSL_WC/world.jpg)
