GSL World Championship: Korea vs The World - Page 8

I personally don't like generalizing, but u can't possibly categorize foreigners as being strong in micro. If anything, there are much more macro oriented. Koreans out-micro foreigners, in general.

I think it's hard to be black and white about just better at macro or micro. But certainly where they came out ahead before was in their multi tasking. I remember a great quote from artosis I think? During a game of july vs some terran where july is chasing an scv with his drone and killing it while moving, ie intense micro, "any foreigner doing would have 500 minerals"
They were far far better at multi tasking in bw, being able to micro amazingly while keeping that macro in beast mode

orangepie

United States24 Posts

April 04 2011 23:40 GMT

#144

I liked the article. I think Koreans are slightly better than foreigners just because of their approach to the game, but just barely. I think whoever works harder, mixed with biological genius, creates the best players. And I think Koreans work very hard. Smartness/genius is worldwide, of course. Interestingly, Koreans used to have a 6 day business work week! In fact, vacation and "fun time" things like amusement parks is a pretty new thing in Korea. Now they have a 5-day work week, like we have in the West. But the point is that I think their hard work translates over to Starcraft. For example, if you study hard then you can learn the latest build orders, practice and master efficient build orders, learn the proper counters, even specific player profiles, etc. For example, if you know who Goody is you know he always (and awesomely) goes mech. But then the second aspect is being smart, like I would say TLO is a good example. You can't learn a sheer genius or smartness. I don't think I can ever play as creatively as TLO. Creativity plays a big role in Starcraft, as well as logical decision making and reasoning. Simply understanding how the system works. For example, economy. Another aspect to consider is passion for the game, and having two television channels specifically for Starcraft certainly shows some dedication, which I would argue, can create more of a passion. My friend from Korea even said, and its completely true, that being good at starcraft is cool. Like in high school, when you are awesome at starcraft, people think you are cool. Not that it matters... I hated high school anyways. Here in the US it isn't exactly cool to be good at starcraft. Which is good though, life's not about being cool =)

But even with that being said, I think the world is nearly equal with Koreans. I don't think the GSL is an accurate assessment of skill, heres why: there isn't an equal amount of world players vs. Koreans in the tournament. Let's say that the percentage of players who enter the GSL is 10% foreigners and 90% koreans. Well, chances are that Koreans will win more. Besides, Jinro made it to the quarterfinals like 2 times, right? So the percentage entering versus percent who make it to the quarter finals is pretty good right, maybe even favoring foreigners.

And I hope no one argues that only the best foreigners compete in the GSL. I mean they are good, no doubt, and Jinro is probly one of the best. But I think some of the best have not played in it. We also have to consider players in their prime. For example, a few months ago no one thought Naniwa was the best by any means, but right now at this moment in time it can be argued he is the best in Europe, maybe even the US, considering his 25-2 showing in the MLG... I think the article also should have mentioned the TSL, where there is a better percentage of Koreans vs. foreigners competing, and foreigners are doing very well. As MC said, foreigners got an upgrade hahahah. Maybe we just got lair tech. Or built a tech lab.

Skaggs

United States57 Posts

April 05 2011 00:27 GMT

#145

Such a great series. I was actually standing up cheering at WhiteRa vs MC. And I was so incredibly disappointed with the drop in Mvp vs Dimaga (how anticlimactic!). I really hope they have more series exactly like this one in the future!

PoopLord

537 Posts

April 05 2011 01:06 GMT

#146

This article paralleled Martin Luther King Jr.'s speech. ;_;

ZergMaestro

United States169 Posts

April 05 2011 01:27 GMT

#147

Its funny when Whitera gets called the "grandpa-toss" or the "grandpa protoss", and when boxer, and nestea are "old" at the age of 30. (If I remember right boxer, nestea, and white-ra are 30ish)

I don't think its bad. I think its kinda cool. I can't think of any progamers older then them.

Im 22 so in starcraft years I should be having my midlife crisis soon.

I feel bad that I dont pull for the non-koreans to win. The only non-koreans I really root for are whitera, nony, and Mr. TLO.

underdawg

United States399 Posts

April 05 2011 05:46 GMT

#148

On April 04 2011 22:26 Markwerf wrote:
Unfortunately Koreans still seem to own white dudes. The team event wasn't taken serious really by the koreans which showed in some of the tactics and interviews about it. For example MVP went BC in the game he dropped because it would be an awesome way to play and San also went carrier earlier which he probably wouldn't do in a personal league.
Teamleagues are also a horrible way to gauge skill as there is no way you can prepare or respond to an opponent in them. You face an unknown opponent in a BO1 and if you win the other team can send out someone prepared for you... The entire format is made to cause upsets which makes it fun to watch but also off relatively no meaning to actual skill of teams and players involved. The top players don't take these teamleagues serious yet and really why should they? Sometimes they show up without even having to play...

In most personal events koreans outperformed non-koreans by quite a bit with the exception of TSL. TSL itself really seems to give hope that the gap isn't as big (yet) but then again the lagfactor is hard to exclude from that tournament. Lag might not have been that bad but koreans aren't used to playing with it so they had a relative disadvantage in that way.

The best way to gauge difference between the koreans and the rest will probably be the NASL. The proportion of koreans (8 out of 50?) and the number of games are both big enough to actually get some sensible data from that tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if all the koreans end up placing top 3 of their group there which will show that they truly stand alone skillwise.

there were also random signs too...like MVP seeming to want to scout with a lone BC lol. "PLEASE, NEURAL PARASITE ME!!!!!" MVP is not the kind of player that would throw a BC away.

look who knows if the foreigners were trying their best in the team showmatch, but it's clear the koreans weren't. cella posted here saying, hey guys what builds do you want to see, I'll do it even if we lose. MVP's comments about the BCs. the entire foreigner team's comments. hell, even posts like this is why they wanted to keep it close, IMO. how much more exciting was it because it went 9-8?

still, dimaga over nestea is still HUGE

and i don't think anyone really thinks that koreans are genetically better at sc2, why do people keep talking about how that's not true? with the proper numbers, environment, and practice, korea would be just another country in sc2.

iamthedave

England2814 Posts

April 05 2011 10:54 GMT

#149

I think the fact no foreigners made it to the semis puts paid to the exuberance of the team event

Still, the gap is closing. And if we had more of the champion foreigners there it could have been over.

I doubt we'll ever get the 'best' in the GSL though. With the market getting larger outside Korea, there's less incentive for a top foreigner to try their hand.

To be honest I think the real question is whether or not the Koreans will end up marginalized in a year or two.

nymfaw

Norway430 Posts

April 05 2011 11:09 GMT

#150

nvm i suck

sashamunguia

Mexico423 Posts

April 05 2011 11:42 GMT

#151

idk if this is the right place to say it, but the marinekingprime vs OGSMC series is getting awesome!!!!!!!!!

Sixears

United States22 Posts

April 05 2011 11:57 GMT

#152

insane.

KOFgokuon

United States14893 Posts

April 05 2011 15:39 GMT

#153

go world!

rapier7

United States46 Posts

April 05 2011 19:41 GMT

#154

The Koreans aren't going to be marginalized even if the prizes are bigger outside of Korea. The game is still huge in Korea and the very best Koreans will go try and win foreign tournaments. You can never count them out.

tripper688

United States569 Posts

April 05 2011 20:27 GMT

#155

On April 05 2011 19:54 iamthedave wrote:
I think the fact no foreigners made it to the semis puts paid to the exuberance of the team event

The gap may be closing but there is still a gap...think of it this way. What's to say that the champion foreigners would have been champs had they been playing against top Koreans in all of those events? I get the feeling that as of right now and the foreseeable future (year from now), even if the GSL were to cease to exist, we'd get a lot more results like the IEMWC.

orangepie

United States24 Posts

April 05 2011 20:56 GMT

#156

well, its interesting people talking about the incentive for foreigners to go compete in the GSL. I think the top foreigners are striving to be the best, not just make money, and the thing is, they know that they won't be considered the best until they go through the trial by fire in the GSL haha! I think whether or not the money is good, the best sc2 players will want to prove themselves! It's an interesting challenge.

hmmm...

632 Posts

April 06 2011 08:46 GMT

#157

On April 05 2011 19:54 iamthedave wrote:
I think the fact no foreigners made it to the semis puts paid to the exuberance of the team event

it's true that the market is getting larger, but without the culture there, in 7-8 years, the market will only shrink imo.

and i think any foreigner who's not just playing for the money but truly wishes to prove oneself as the best will try to compete in the GSL since GSL is still the most prestigious tournament with indisputably the highest quality of play (btw watch the GSL WC Semis!!!)

and also, any top foreigner will always have that blemish on their resume when he hasn't proved himself against the best koreans so i'm sure GSL will remain for a long while.

F u r u y a

Brazil173 Posts

April 06 2011 09:07 GMT

#158

On April 05 2011 01:43 OldMiser wrote:

Unfortunately, imo the gap between koreans and foreigners will only grow bigger. I say that cuz I believe sc2 is still very "abstract"... it's probably going to get more and more "concrete" over time, and once there are very solid playstyles (like in BW), and the game turns almost completely to micro/macro, the koreans will rape everyone mercylessly. That's just what I think anyway... Nice write-up btw!

That's very sad, but may be true.

The closest the game gets to being just micro/macro mechanics, the farthest it gets from being a strategy game, IMO.

Is there a way for the designers to guarantee a margin of abstraction in the game? Because that's what makes the game beautiful.

iRk

Sweden83 Posts

April 06 2011 10:45 GMT

#159

Awsome Writeup!