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On March 19 2011 18:02 Fenrisulf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it... My guess is you probably lose a lot to protoss and find this as a great opportunity to blame your inability to win on race imbalance. Or maybe, because you see that blizzard is nerfing P in the PTR and protosses are doing well in GSL for once (and I mean protosses, not just MC), you are jumping on the bandwagon of "protoss OP nerf please". You may also think July is at the same skill level as MC just because he got to the finals or because of some silly BW fanboyism. July got OUTPLAYED, all there is to it. July decided to go for standard zerg play, MC saw a window of opportunity to punish that play. He had a perfect unit composition and perfect micro. July was not prepared for the attacks. -game over- If you truly think that toss is OP in PvZ, then do explain why Huk and banban lost to losirA, why anypro lost to July, why genius lost to FD, why Ace lost to Coca. If what MC did was so easy and imbalanced, anypro (lol) should be able to pull it off. You think the other toss players are too stupid to copy his "un-counterable" build? You think they don't want 50k in prize winnings?
They all lost to zergs because they did not 4 gate / mass sentry each game
What is the correct counter to what MC did? everyone is in agreement that he needed more spines, burrow, and burrow movement. How exactly does one achieve all these thinfs by the 6-7 min mark and have ample roach and lings to defend?
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even if MC is better than july i really don't see how any zerg could have won those games apart from slightly better macro. or maybe baneling drops
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Hahaha Lovedrop, best reasoning :D
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Its going to take a Terran to take down MC. That, or he has to blow a PvP.
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yeah and not cause he's the best player.
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Man I feel asleep at like 4  then I woke up at 6 and watch the rest of the games.
Cool series MC definitely showing his superiority and not letting July even show his game. GG!
Oh and also The 4 Gate rush could have been stopped with more lings and roaches, it was tricky of MC but July should of gotten a hint from seeing so many units including stalkers. Then the 6 Gate should have been stopped with Roach Burrow which you should get asap every game (protoss used to 6 gate all the time and thats the counter). He needed better lair timing for the third loss (you don't have to tech right away when you get lair but having it gives you the option...and he had the money to get it) Then the last game he did terrible engagements with hydras off creep (lol). No clear imbalance here (there might be), July just got outclassed; I play zerg and he didn't respond correctly but it's so hard to scout a good protoss I don't blame him entirely.
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yeh more roaches and ligns, jk forcfield ramp?????
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I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it.
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On March 19 2011 22:16 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:21 Heavenly wrote:On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it... Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement. The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly. yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army. All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference.
Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game.
Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]).
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On March 20 2011 05:34 seejay2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 22:16 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 20:21 Heavenly wrote:On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it... Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement. The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly. yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army. All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference. Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game. Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]).
When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon.
Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder
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This is my second season with a premium ticket... it has been so worth it. MC Fighting!
One question... How do I deal with Post-GSL blues now?
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On March 20 2011 08:29 StormyIC wrote:
This is my second season with a premium ticket... it has been so worth it. MC Fighting!
One question... How do I deal with Post-GSL blues now?
GSL WC starts on monday 
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On March 20 2011 07:56 qwert_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 05:34 seejay2 wrote:On March 19 2011 22:16 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 20:21 Heavenly wrote:On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it... Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement. The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly. yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army. All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference. Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game. Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]). When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon. Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder
Except MC's playstyle won't let you finish those upgrades. As the guy said he attacked before burrow was even a quarter done.
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On March 20 2011 10:06 Trig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:56 qwert_ wrote:On March 20 2011 05:34 seejay2 wrote:On March 19 2011 22:16 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 20:21 Heavenly wrote:On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it... Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement. The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly. yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army. All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference. Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game. Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]). When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon. Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder Except MC's playstyle won't let you finish those upgrades. As the guy said he attacked before burrow was even a quarter done.
Well, in that case, just get 5-6 banelings and burrow, he can't detect and you can just blow up his (mostly) sentry army. Burrow alone should be easily makeable.
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On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it.
Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread.
Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums.
From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox".
MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3.
The precision is absolutely stunning.
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On March 20 2011 12:05 qwert_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 10:06 Trig wrote:On March 20 2011 07:56 qwert_ wrote:On March 20 2011 05:34 seejay2 wrote:On March 19 2011 22:16 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 20:21 Heavenly wrote:On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it... Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement. The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly. yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army. All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference. Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game. Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]). When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon. Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder Except MC's playstyle won't let you finish those upgrades. As the guy said he attacked before burrow was even a quarter done. Well, in that case, just get 5-6 banelings and burrow, he can't detect and you can just blow up his (mostly) sentry army. Burrow alone should be easily makeable.
You're going on as if these upgrades finished that zerg would hard counter and easily win, that's not the case at all. Besides for the 2nd time i'm telling you MC attacked before burrow was done. For him to hold off MCs pushes he'd have to have burow done as well as roach speed and tunnling claws (or w/e) AND have a TON of roaches. These upgrades alone don't counter fuckin shit. It's not like going robo and chrono boosting 2 immortals or going colossus.
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On March 20 2011 12:50 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it. Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox". MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning.
HAHA, 'MC showed amazing skill'. Yeah the amazing skill of "don't get supply blocked". I'm not deying he's a solid player but the only thing he had to do is either make enough probes for 1 base saturation, not get supply blocked, spam units and a+attack with forcefields and in the longer games, saturate 2 bases, don't get supply blocked, crank out units and a+attack with forcefields. exept for the last game which was pretty decent from him with DTs and 3rd expo. But cmon the timings with all those sentries just killing everything july had was ridiculously stupid. Even if july had twice the amount of units ready to kill his almost all stalker army he still would have lost.
i'm sorry but if a build like 4 gate is strong enough to take out some of the best players in the world then there is something wrong with the game. the build is insanely easy to pull off, anybody can do it. forcefields are insanly easy to place if you just have enough practice playing as protoss. the only thing you have to worry about is not getting supply blocked.
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On March 20 2011 14:05 Trig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 12:50 Euronyme wrote:On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it. Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox". MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning. HAHA, 'MC showed amazing skill'. Yeah the amazing skill of "don't get supply blocked". I'm not deying he's a solid player but the only thing he had to do is either make enough probes for 1 base saturation, not get supply blocked, spam units and a+attack with forcefields and in the longer games, saturate 2 bases, don't get supply blocked, crank out units and a+attack with forcefields. exept for the last game which was pretty decent from him with DTs and 3rd expo. But cmon the timings with all those sentries just killing everything july had was ridiculously stupid. Even if july had twice the amount of units ready to kill his almost all stalker army he still would have lost. i'm sorry but if a build like 4 gate is strong enough to take out some of the best players in the world then there is something wrong with the game. the build is insanely easy to pull off, anybody can do it. forcefields are insanly easy to place if you just have enough practice playing as protoss. the only thing you have to worry about is not getting supply blocked.
so you're suggesting that protoss is the least micro intensive race? just warping in units, blink and FF placement alone exceeds any micro most zerg or terran player ever have to do. that's also why it took the protoss players so much longer to really be able to beat terran and zerg (remember 2-3 months ago when protoss were struggling the most).
one other thing: you say july wasn't able to get enough army to fight MC. sure he wasn't b/c he was droneing up like a madman instead of building an army. that's the price you pay for being too greedy with your economy
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On March 20 2011 12:05 qwert_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 10:06 Trig wrote:On March 20 2011 07:56 qwert_ wrote:On March 20 2011 05:34 seejay2 wrote:On March 19 2011 22:16 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 20:21 Heavenly wrote:On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it... Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement. The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly. yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army. All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better Ok, so you are saying that after seeing a few sentries july SHOULD have gotten burrow + tunneling claws. Unless you are seeing a very low gas build you are going to see sentries. That is standard for holding an expo vs zerg. Getting all of those upgrades are alot of minerals + gas investment when you dont even know he is rushing. Think about this, what if july got all of the roach upgrades RIGHT when he saw the sentries. Roach speed, burrow, and tunneling equals 350 minerals and gas. Those minerals (probably not roach speed since zergs get that very early) could be invested into other early game aspects like drones or upgrades. What if MC didn't rush him like he did. That would have set him behind and he could have gotten those upgrades a little later. 250 minerals may not seem like a lot, but in the first 5minutes it makes a HUGE difference. Now back what if he decided to get those spines + upgrades. Those upgrades take very long and burrow finished after the first engagement happened. 110 game seconds is a very long time. When MC first got to Julys base in game 2 he was behind in units. Had he gotten the upgrades earlier he would have even LESS units. Spines would have just finished by the time he saw the push coming. He would have to pull back to wait for reinforcements to fully take on mc's army. July would have to attack and burrow. MC could easily run and take advantage of that kind of tactics to quickly snipe the hatch and FF to run away. So MC could have easily sniped the hatch and expand to take an overwhelming lead going into the late game. Then again if we are all saying "what if july.." why cant we say what if instead of 7 gates he got 6 gates robo obs and push. That would make the burrow and tunnel useless. It would even hurt him because he would burrow and take extra shots. I hope this is considered opinions w/ evidence instead of calling you a plat noob (LOL jp bro =]). When you get those upgrades you can simply contain toss as long as he's got no robo. In case he does get a robo - Just expand all over the place and drone up b/c he's not gonna attack any time soon. Another idea I read somewhere and really liked as a balance patch suggestion, is making queens massive. Therefore the FFing of small ramps will be a lot harder Except MC's playstyle won't let you finish those upgrades. As the guy said he attacked before burrow was even a quarter done. Well, in that case, just get 5-6 banelings and burrow, he can't detect and you can just blow up his (mostly) sentry army. Burrow alone should be easily makeable.
Ok again dude, getting a baneling nest + all roach upgrades + 5-6 banes is so much of an investment july's standing army will be so much weaker compared to mc's when he pushed. Also how are you going to burrow when gets to your base "BEFORE BURROW IS DONE"
Also for your robo contain post, just because you have burrow you cant just contain a toss that has 6 gateways, and if you really wanted to go very very fast burrow + tunnel you will need to skip roach speed and get tunneling claws first which is so bad.
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I think you all aren't looking at July's build orders closely enough. He would always go pool and speed first even on the second map crevasse. He kept playing standard and never compensated for MC's aggressive style as well as he could have had a lot stronger econ at the very start. If he had gone hatch first, or maybe not even get speed so fast he could have more drones better econ and then more stuff for when MC would push. To me it is clearly MC came prepared with a game plan to never let July dictate the game flow while July on the other hand never did anything to throw MC off his game plan. Never threw in a 6 pool, early aggression, or even change his plan out of the standard pool and speed opening. He during many of the attacks he had tech buildings such as the hydra den but wasn't able to make use of it because he got it to early and didn't quite have the econ to support it. July didn't make the best decisions when going against MC, July followed a pattern MC saw the weakness in that style nad exploited it. Then July does the same build pretty much every game MC changed it up but exploits Julys style over and over again.
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EPT
