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On March 20 2011 16:16 qwert_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 14:05 Trig wrote:On March 20 2011 12:50 Euronyme wrote:On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it. Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox". MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning. HAHA, 'MC showed amazing skill'. Yeah the amazing skill of "don't get supply blocked". I'm not deying he's a solid player but the only thing he had to do is either make enough probes for 1 base saturation, not get supply blocked, spam units and a+attack with forcefields and in the longer games, saturate 2 bases, don't get supply blocked, crank out units and a+attack with forcefields. exept for the last game which was pretty decent from him with DTs and 3rd expo. But cmon the timings with all those sentries just killing everything july had was ridiculously stupid. Even if july had twice the amount of units ready to kill his almost all stalker army he still would have lost. i'm sorry but if a build like 4 gate is strong enough to take out some of the best players in the world then there is something wrong with the game. the build is insanely easy to pull off, anybody can do it. forcefields are insanly easy to place if you just have enough practice playing as protoss. the only thing you have to worry about is not getting supply blocked. so you're suggesting that protoss is the least micro intensive race? just warping in units, blink and FF placement alone exceeds any micro most zerg or terran player ever have to do. that's also why it took the protoss players so much longer to really be able to beat terran and zerg (remember 2-3 months ago when protoss were struggling the most). one other thing: you say july wasn't able to get enough army to fight MC. sure he wasn't b/c he was droneing up like a madman instead of building an army. that's the price you pay for being too greedy with your economy
blink micro is hilariously easier than people make it out to be. yeah protoss is the least micro intensive race, probably not when it comes to TvP but TvT and TvZ terran is probably the most micro intensive.
well basically if you build an army of 2 base to defend a 2 base protoss push you're going to lose
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On March 20 2011 18:08 ShampooSuicide wrote:
I think you all aren't looking at July's build orders closely enough. He would always go pool and speed first even on the second map crevasse. He kept playing standard and never compensated for MC's aggressive style as well as he could have had a lot stronger econ at the very start. If he had gone hatch first, or maybe not even get speed so fast he could have more drones better econ and then more stuff for when MC would push. To me it is clearly MC came prepared with a game plan to never let July dictate the game flow while July on the other hand never did anything to throw MC off his game plan. Never threw in a 6 pool, early aggression, or even change his plan out of the standard pool and speed opening. He during many of the attacks he had tech buildings such as the hydra den but wasn't able to make use of it because he got it to early and didn't quite have the econ to support it. July didn't make the best decisions when going against MC, July followed a pattern MC saw the weakness in that style nad exploited it. Then July does the same build pretty much every game MC changed it up but exploits Julys style over and over again.
came with a game plan? he did exactly what he does vs everyone. yeah july probably should have gone 15 hatch a few games but MCs aggressive play is the exact type of play that would stop it, you've seen his canon rushes i presume. and i don't think going speed alone lost july all of the gmaes. i don't see any zerg builds apart from 6pool that will "throw" mc off, i'm psure he went early sentries every single game. what can you do against sentries?
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On March 20 2011 14:05 Trig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 12:50 Euronyme wrote:On March 20 2011 04:22 TimeSpiral wrote:
I see a lot of people saying July did not respond properly, or had bad burrow timing (lol), but MC's plays were just too good.
Let's be frank, July got lucky on Terminus RE. July is awesome, but if the timing of that attack was even slightly later, it would have been game.
Mass Sentry is insanely, super strong. The 3, 4, and 6 warpgate attack are just hyper aggressive super-builds that are virtually impossible to stop when done at a level like that of MC.
ForceField is too good, and those "flashlights" everyone refers to do apprx. the same DPS as an un-stimmed marine. FF is too good and everyone knows it.
The entire community is crying for Gateway buffs but MC said, Gateway buffs? Lol, I will win GSL with mass Gateway units and that is it. Oh come the f*ck on. Don't make this another ZvE (yeah E as in Everyone) balance thread. Sure, sentries do the same damage as un unstimmed marine, but they cost 50/100, and are vital for Protoss to stop timing rushes, as we have the weakest and least cost effective low tier units in the game. The "everyone" you refer to are the whiners on blizzard forums. From day 1 there's been tonnes and tonnes of balance whining, it's time to start doing some positive, creative thinking instead of going all "herp derp blizzard I got 6 pooled nerf zerg plox". MC showed amazing skill. I was covered in goose bumps when seeing those sentries beating up the first wave of hydras in game 3. The precision is absolutely stunning. HAHA, 'MC showed amazing skill'. Yeah the amazing skill of "don't get supply blocked". I'm not deying he's a solid player but the only thing he had to do is either make enough probes for 1 base saturation, not get supply blocked, spam units and a+attack with forcefields and in the longer games, saturate 2 bases, don't get supply blocked, crank out units and a+attack with forcefields. exept for the last game which was pretty decent from him with DTs and 3rd expo. But cmon the timings with all those sentries just killing everything july had was ridiculously stupid. Even if july had twice the amount of units ready to kill his almost all stalker army he still would have lost. i'm sorry but if a build like 4 gate is strong enough to take out some of the best players in the world then there is something wrong with the game. the build is insanely easy to pull off, anybody can do it. forcefields are insanly easy to place if you just have enough practice playing as protoss. the only thing you have to worry about is not getting supply blocked.
Wow that's just low man. MC is probably the best player in the world right now.
He had awesome builds planned out, with genius timings that often relied upon not being scouted (hiding half of the army when he made the false expo, hiding a DT opening behind a 3 gate)
Sentries are what makes the games interesting with protoss, as every matchup would be pretty silly without them.
Yeah it's easy to 4 gate.. no buildorder is really tricky to do tbh if you have a trace of fundamentals in your play. Well executed builds, with huge amounts of sneakyness, mind games and crystal clear execution is what makes a good player.
You can say his timings were "ridiculously stupid", but then how come protoss don't win every single PvZ? Because they can't play like MC, that's why.
Also when other players come up with new strategies and tricks, they're rightfully considered geniuses. For instance the Foxer build.
TvT requires more micro than PvZ? Lol, TvT is a position game, not a micro wars. TvZ is also either a lot of turtling with turret spam, or timing pushes with marine / tank.
PvP is probably by far the most microintensive MU, and forcefields in PvZ and PvT requires ridiculous speed and precision. If you watch MC, his forcefields all come up at basically the same time, at exactly the right spots.
If it's so ridiculously easy to do what MC did, why don't ya go to Korea and beat everyone with his build?
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Yeah, clearly genius. Best player world. If he was zerg or terran he would just destroy GSL. Jk he wouldn't even get into ro18. Well actually, i can't really say that, because so far all his builds have been perfect. BUT i've yet to see a macro game from him (apart from last game with july - don't read into this too much, i haven't seen every MC game). He failed tremendously in other macro games i've seen in the previous GSL (i think). Truth is it's easy to abuse protoss builds like 4 gate and 6 gate to win easy games. Sure his timings were spot and he was very precice. But that alone shouldn't be enough to let you win 2 GSL tournaments alone. Wait what 'micro' does P have to use vs Z? I'm not sure where you're going with that cause i'm psure the zerg has to pull of some amazing micro to even do an army trade off (with toss having some of their units still remaining). I also said PvT not PvZ. PvP is the most micro intensive because it's just 4gate vs 4gate and it's always a small amount of units early on vs a small amount of units. Rofl please. Yeah i agree MC is really REALLY fast with his forcefields, i was shocked when they all came down at the same time. But it doesn't change the fact that they're easy to do and it pmuch wins you the battle if you do them right. Ehehe and of course the downy comment at the end of your post. I dunno really, i think it just may be my hatred for protoss just getting the better of me, oh well. Maybe i'm just bad and don't see all the possibilities july had to beat MCs builds.
Not to take anything away from MC, he's a great player, i'm not saying he isn't. But build orders alone and only gateway units are winning the GSL for him. He doesn't even have to try.
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Oh good, we can talk balance here.
The problem I saw pretty clearly in this finals was zerg's complete lack of options.
Even just the typical 4-gate leaves protoss with some choices, which in turn will dictate the zerg's response.
Blink Stalkers - they need to mass speedlings mostly, forget the roaches
Zealot and Sentries - they need to mass roaches. A lot of roaches. Tech comes slowly.
DT rush - you need to get a Lair or evo-chamber/spore-crawlers ASAP.
Protoss makes a build decision, and zerg has to counter or dies otherwise. There is no inverse of this. The only thing a zerg can really force on a protoss early-on is to force them to build a wall, which most protoss blindly do against zerg's anyways, and doesn't really effect much.
I know zerg is the "reactionary" race as a general rule, but watching the finals really struck it home to me that at high-levels, "reactionary" really means being easily manipulated.
Forcefields, blink. These are just such fun toys to have to choose from. Against protoss, all a zerg has to give his T1 units a tech edge is speed and burrow... not as exciting. Not as impacting as Blink or Charge, that's for sure.
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btw, has anyone got any commentary vods or replays with MC vs Nestea?
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
That treehugger guy is always right.
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dude that's laik totaly not cool n stuff
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MC is such a baller, he can't lose!
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On March 20 2011 22:59 Trig wrote:
Yeah, clearly genius. Best player world. If he was zerg or terran he would just destroy GSL. Jk he wouldn't even get into ro18. Well actually, i can't really say that, because so far all his builds have been perfect. BUT i've yet to see a macro game from him (apart from last game with july - don't read into this too much, i haven't seen every MC game). He failed tremendously in other macro games i've seen in the previous GSL (i think). Truth is it's easy to abuse protoss builds like 4 gate and 6 gate to win easy games. Sure his timings were spot and he was very precice. But that alone shouldn't be enough to let you win 2 GSL tournaments alone. Wait what 'micro' does P have to use vs Z? I'm not sure where you're going with that cause i'm psure the zerg has to pull of some amazing micro to even do an army trade off (with toss having some of their units still remaining). I also said PvT not PvZ. PvP is the most micro intensive because it's just 4gate vs 4gate and it's always a small amount of units early on vs a small amount of units. Rofl please. Yeah i agree MC is really REALLY fast with his forcefields, i was shocked when they all came down at the same time. But it doesn't change the fact that they're easy to do and it pmuch wins you the battle if you do them right. Ehehe and of course the downy comment at the end of your post. I dunno really, i think it just may be my hatred for protoss just getting the better of me, oh well. Maybe i'm just bad and don't see all the possibilities july had to beat MCs builds.
Not to take anything away from MC, he's a great player, i'm not saying he isn't. But build orders alone and only gateway units are winning the GSL for him. He doesn't even have to try.
What kind of macro game are you talking about. The 2 games with byun wernt macro games? The final game with july could be considered a macro game. He got those 3 expos up. So not saying not seeing ANY macro games is very false. Failing in previous gsl's (im guessing you were talking where he lost to jinro) and winning this one makes you think...yes...HE GOT BETTER. MC also did great macro games against Rain and MKP in gsl season 3.
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yeah, i already stated the last game against July. i'm not denying he got better, he improved a shit ton. i'm not refering to his skill level though
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July's ZvP is nowhere near as good as his ZvT. If he only had some sick, aggressive builds for ZvP those finals would've been totally different. MC builds kill, period. July's builds kill as well, but he has to refine them against toss, the game he won he made up for the immobility of hydra's beautifully (he just got lucky that MC let him live long enough to get set up).
Seriously, if we could've seen an aggressive July 2base build vs an aggressive MC 2base build, it would've been the real clash of the titans that Tastosis had us all excited for.
In the interviews they showed before the games i was so stoked to see this new style July was gonna show, hoping for something like his ZvT. Oh well, he's lost a lot of weight since his BW days :D
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i don't think a 2 base zer vs a 2 base protoss would have been a good match :p maybe a few engagements but that's it. july would have lost for sure
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July never loses, what do you mean! Well, he shouldn't ever lose!
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EPT
