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On March 19 2011 18:09 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote:
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
i know that you're blinded by ur own arrogance, and having a vision that u are able to achieve high masters league in a month is just your own opinion. You're nothing if you don't execute what you say. In addition, how do u know the analysis you give is not wrong? its just what you believe, when you think everything you say and analyse is correct.
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On March 19 2011 18:09 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote:
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me.
Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up.
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On March 19 2011 18:16 Kisezik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:09 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote:
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me. i know that you're blinded by ur own arrogance, and having a vision that u are able to achieve high masters league in a month is just your own opinion. You're nothing if you don't execute what you say. In addition, how do u know the analysis you give is not wrong? its just what you believe, when you think everything you say and analyse is correct.
would it be anyone elses opinion but my own? i think thats pretty obvious, and everything your saying is just your own opinion. What your saying makes no sense, why do i have to be confident in my own abilities to judge a player like july? Obviously july made some mistakes i dont think anyone is going to argue with me there except for maybe you. If you dont think july made any mistakes and it was simply Protoss being overpowered or w/e you think is the reason then i would have to take your analysis into question regardless of your league because i honestly dont give a crap about what league your in. Its like saying i cant make judgements on a sports player playing a bad game because im not as good of a hockey soccer or w/e player as him , that is just totally false. I really dont even understand how my abilities have anything to do with how july played or how I and others perceived that he played, does that somehow make sense in your mind?
EditLAlso i never said i would reach high masters in a month i said high diamond or masters, i dont beleive i could reach high masters ever really the nerve damage in my wrist is fairly severe and after too much play my wrist starts to ache in excrutiating pain.
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On March 19 2011 18:37 justdweezil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:09 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote:
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me. Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up.
Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost?
Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please.
You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play.
If you said hey cheese what you said wouldnt work becaues "blah blah blah" i would respect your opinion alot more than just putting my analysis into question without coming up with anything to back that up besides the fact that i am in platinum.
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On March 19 2011 18:42 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:37 justdweezil wrote:On March 19 2011 18:09 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote:
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me. Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up. Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost? Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please. You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play.
you can't compare hockey or tennis with starcraft. Starcraft is a "real time strategy" game, and it requires alot of mental effort, and you have to be smart and predict. That's why being able to analyse well, you gotta have as much experience as the players to truly understand what is happening.
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On March 19 2011 18:57 Kisezik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:42 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:37 justdweezil wrote:On March 19 2011 18:09 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote:
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me. Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up. Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost? Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please. You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play. you can't compare hockey or tennis with starcraft. Starcraft is a "real time strategy" game, and it requires alot of mental effort, and you have to be smart and predict. That's why being able to analyse well, you gotta have as much experience as the players to truly understand what is happening.
Okay i agree that it requires a completely different way of analyzing then say a normal sport, but by watching lots of games and streams you can easily become half decent at analyzing , i think most people would agree and that is their opinion just as you have yours that supposedly nobody can understand the game properly if they dont play at the highest level, whos sounds more open minded mine or yours?
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On March 19 2011 19:02 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:57 Kisezik wrote:On March 19 2011 18:42 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:37 justdweezil wrote:On March 19 2011 18:09 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote:
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me. Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up. Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost? Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please. You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play. you can't compare hockey or tennis with starcraft. Starcraft is a "real time strategy" game, and it requires alot of mental effort, and you have to be smart and predict. That's why being able to analyse well, you gotta have as much experience as the players to truly understand what is happening. Okay i agree that it requires a completely different way of analyzing then say a normal sport, but by watching lots of games and streams you can easily become half decent at analyzing , i think most people would agree and that is their opinion just as you have yours that supposedly nobody can understand the game properly if they dont play at the highest level, whos sounds more open minded mine or yours?
okay, kellymilkies and duo, two low level players who watch alot of replays and stream vs Tasteless and Artosis, who are two high level players. Which group do u think has more knowledge and better casting?. The reason everyone loves Tasteless and Artosis is because what they say is actually correct, despite all the jokes they make.
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all i would like to say is MC is a beast and I wanna see if any zerg can win in bo 7 against him
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On March 19 2011 19:07 Kisezik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:02 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:57 Kisezik wrote:On March 19 2011 18:42 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:37 justdweezil wrote:On March 19 2011 18:09 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 18:03 Kisezik wrote:
cheesemaster, the reason why ur still in plat is because you have too much confidence in what you think is correct. You have no idea how bad platinum league is, why ru so confident in ur own abilities that you'll judge, even a player like July?
Because i really dont spend that much time playing the game and i think i am far better at analyzing then i am at playing the game. Im pretty sure if i seriously sat down and played alot of starcraft i could be in high diamond / masters league in a month or so regardless of the nerve damage i have in my right wrist that prohibits my mouse movement and accuracy quite a bit. stop pretending like you know anything about me. Every other person thinks they're a great analyst, but not so good at playing. Every other person. That's how this works. Sad reality: the vast majority of these people (including you) doesn't actually even know enough to actually understand that they don't really understand the game. It's called the Dunning-Krueger effect. Look it up. Im not saying im a great analyst or even a decent one but ive watched enough pro games to know why a player loses. You dont have to be that smart to figure it out. Regardless of the reason july made some mistakes are both of you guys arguing with me because you dont beleive july made any mistakes and still lost? Edit: Neither of you guys have aknowleged any of the things i said july did wrong with a more productive response but instead are just judging me as a person. Why dont we try to be productive hear and discuss what i thought july could have done better vs what you thought july could have done better instead of bickering back and forth on weather being a bad player makes you a bad analyst, judge me on what i said not what league im in please. You say including me as if i know nothing about the game, I dont understand what the korean casters are saying but clearly they are well liked, i know some of them are in gold/plat league does that make them bad analysts automatically? There are alot of sports analysts who werent proffesional players does that make them bad? Im not saying im a proffesional player or even a great analyst i just dont understand how you can put someone into a category so quickly based on their league and not even aknowledge what you think was wrong about what i thought was wrong with july's play. you can't compare hockey or tennis with starcraft. Starcraft is a "real time strategy" game, and it requires alot of mental effort, and you have to be smart and predict. That's why being able to analyse well, you gotta have as much experience as the players to truly understand what is happening. Okay i agree that it requires a completely different way of analyzing then say a normal sport, but by watching lots of games and streams you can easily become half decent at analyzing , i think most people would agree and that is their opinion just as you have yours that supposedly nobody can understand the game properly if they dont play at the highest level, whos sounds more open minded mine or yours? okay, kellymilkies and duo, two low level players who watch alot of replays and stream vs Tasteless and Artosis, who are two high level players. Which group do u think has more knowledge and better casting?. The reason everyone loves Tasteless and Artosis is because what they say is actually correct, despite all the jokes they make.
Well obviously tasteless and artosis , but theyve also had wayy more experienced as casters. I still find tasteless and artosis being suprised by obvious things (they were wondering why a protoss player was getting armor before attack against terran , then by the time the up and down matches came around they were saying armor was the cats pajama's to get against terran) I think sometimes they just talk to much or get tired and thats why their analysis gets a bit off sometimes. Clearly they are some of the best but im not saying that im not trying to go into every intricacy about how july could have done better im just suggesting things that he could have done that at least would have prolonged the game( that i think are pretty obvious and a few ppl agreed with me in this thread) and although you are questioning my integrity on the matter you have yet to even aknowledge what i actually said on july zergs play.
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On March 19 2011 19:12 Haustka wrote:
all i would like to say is MC is a beast and I wanna see if any zerg can win in bo 7 against him
I think nestea could take some games off of him, i dont know about winning though.
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The only real option July had, was using mutas. But yeah, MC also uses blink stalkers so that wont be that effective either. Burrow roaches are fine, but when he has an observer out, he has free hits till those roaches get out of the force fields. Then he just applies new ones and he has to burrow again so he has free hits and after a while, he will have effectively halfed that army without losing stuff himself.
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On March 19 2011 19:37 Falcon_NL wrote:
The only real option July had, was using mutas. But yeah, MC also uses blink stalkers so that wont be that effective either. Burrow roaches are fine, but when he has an observer out, he has free hits till those roaches get out of the force fields. Then he just applies new ones and he has to burrow again so he has free hits and after a while, he will have effectively halfed that army without losing stuff himself.
I think you forgot about burrow movement.
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On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it...
Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement.
The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
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just one quick thought about avoiding FFs - any possibility to pick the army up with overlords for zerg?=
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is it anyway u can watch this if u missed it?
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On March 19 2011 20:21 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 17:49 Disarm22 wrote:On March 19 2011 17:47 cheesemaster wrote:
He scouts mc going mass sentries, he gets a quick lair and burrow movement, mc doesnt have an obs , he pops out right on top of all of mc's sentries and takes them out, no one thinks this would have changed things? or are we just going to say FF OPOPOP and ignore the counter to it. My guess is that you play toss so you will never think FF are OP vs zerg in early game. I do recall july burrowing and popping up on the sentries and stalkers and getting crushed regardless of the "counter" to it... Because if he pops up underneath the sentries and stalkers, that means FORCEFIELD WAS CLEARLY THE REASON HE LOST THAT ENGAGEMENT. Couldn't have been MC's superior army size, no...it simply must have been that, with July's army right next to his, MC somehow managed to use the OPness of forcefields to win the close-quarters engagement. The counter to a six gate sentry push is obviously burrow. MC never had an obs. Burrow your hydras and roaches until the forcefields wear off. Pop up and then kill the army which is now 50% useless sentries that basically shine a flashlight on your units. July won because he had horrible burrow timing, that's all. He played badly.
yea, so many people in this thread simply ignore this answer i find it pretty funny actually. They would obviously prefer to say protoss is OP then july zerg simply got outplayed/ didnt show his bes games. Had july zerg actually gotten burrow movement in a lot of those engagements and used it properly im fairly certain he would have won a few of those fights and we would have seen it turn into a macro game or a quick win for july. In the 6 gate in the second game burrow had just finished half way through the engagement with mc's army had he had burrow + movement or even just burrow from the beginning of the battle and used it to wait out forcefields or popped out at the right time we would have seen a much different game, Even after half of his army was gone and he used it he popped out at the completely wrong time after most of mc's army had already been on top of the burrowed roaches, you pop up on top of the sentries kill them off and you either force a stalker retreat or reinforce and take out the rest of his army.
All in all i think it was just disappointing games from July rather than abusive/ overpowering games from MC. July Zerg should know how to hold off a 6 gate mass sentry push at this level regardless of perfect forcefield placement zerg has an ability that almost completely negates forcefields ESPECIALLY when you don't have detection. Im pretty sure he knows now how he could have won some of those games or at least done better and we wont see the same mistakes from him in the future he needs to be able to play on the defensive if he cant get the aggression started before a timing push from MC. I dont even know how he was planning on being aggressive after poking and seeing all those sentries from MC without burrow movement, after that poke he should have immediately started researching burrow and either got on the offensive or built some more spines and stayed on the defensive i found the lack of spines against a pure gateway army was possibly one of the reasons why he had so much trouble holding off every single one of those timing pushes, I could see why he didnt get them though if he was planning on being the aggresor shortly after, he should know mc's timing for 6 gate though and be prepared. ^^ ah well next time july zerg, i was actually rooting for him even though MC is one of my favouriite players it would have been nice to at least see him play a little better
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Im pretty sure Nestea would've given MC a much better fight. July isnt that great, he has relied on people being unprepared for his playstyle. You can whine all you want about FF protoss etc but the face is that MC is alot better then July.
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Personally I think the nexus fake in the first game was quite genius. I often notice I get a mineral buffer during the construction of the additional 3 gates, and if you throw down a nexus at that point, and cancel it later when the production catches up with the economy, you can get a really nice timing. Note also that he hid half of his army in his base when zerglings poked around.
Good games imo, even though none of them went into the epic stage, I still had major goose bumps.
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So sad that July played standard all games. I like it when he does crazy aggression
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4-1 and didn't even make a colossus. Fuckkkkkkk!
I'm now feeling even more confident in my pick for MC as the TSL3 winner. :D
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EPT
