EG.IdrA goes hatchery first, while Liquid`Jinro does not look like he will be applying any pressure as a second barracks is nowhere to be seen. Unknowingly a roach warren has been dropped, Jinro's four marines slowly make their way across the map. A hellion quickly joins the fray looking to deal some damage to IdrA's natural, but four roaches pop out, forcing Jinro to retreat. Jinro barely makes it into his base unscathed, walling in and using the marines' superior range to deal damage to IdrA's roaches. The roaches focus fire the barracks, bringing it down to a single tick of life left on its health bar, before Jinro pulls a handful of SCVs down to repair. The banshee is finally done to thwart IdrA's attack. IdrA smartly splits his remaining roaches to ensure survival of at least one.
Banshees shoo away the roaches.
After clearing out the mess at his front door, Jinro expands, using his starport and building bunkers as a wall. The banshee makes its way over to IdrA's base, but is unable to deal damage as feisty queens fend off her dearest baby drones. IdrA has started a spire at his natural, and Jinro is unable to scout it. Seven mutalisks spawn with +1 underway, quickly followed by a third at the 5 o'clock base and a baneling's nest. The mutalisks pick off slow medivacs and several SCVs, with IdrA dropping a fourth hatchery to reinforce his macro. Jinro looks poised to take out the rocks at the gold to claim his third, but mutalisks catch Jinro out of position forcing the marines to scatter back and forth. IdrA rushes forward after seeing a skimpy amount of tanks, but Jinro's marine spread was enough to nullify the baneling's effectiveness, forcing IdrA's mutas to pull back. During the attack, IdrA secures his own gold.
Very little tanks.
Jinro this time pushes into IdrA's gold only to be met with an overwhelming amount of units, and loses his whole army in the process. IdrA is adamant about denying that gold for Jinro, as he continuously pokes with his mutalisks, sniping turrets and MULEs alike. Jinro walls in one entrance to his natural with barracks, but mutalisks simply glides their way into the main, taking out the essential add-ons for Jinro's buildings. IdrA's now maxed army is ready to move out, with hive tech ready at his disposal. IdrA takes out Jinro's marines and seeing the mutalisks light each of his buildings on fire is enough for Jinro to tap out. [19:30]
Jinro walls in at the bottom of his ramp, denying any sorts of scouting from the close positions on Metalopolis. IdrA safely opens speedlings in fear any of two barracks power play. Jinro hides an SCV outside his base, and laps the SCV around their shared gold in order for it not to be scouted by IdrA. This second SCV along with the first scout walls IdrA in with two bunkers. The SCV shifts itself just right for Jinro and two marines hop in the bunker. IdrA wastes no time and GGs. [4:30]
Jinro scoots his SCV to the right before sending it out to scout, just enough to see that scouting overlord making his way over from IdrA's base. Walling himself again at the bottom of the ramp, Jinro does not make a second barracks. IdrA opens hatch first, and Jinro respond by making a bunker at the bottom of IdrA's ramp at the natural. IdrA's overlord sees the encroaching bunker and makes a spine crawler to defend his hatch.
Limits IdrA's movements outside his base.
Jinro has already started his command center behind his mini push, and both the scouting drone and overlord sees absolutely nothing before being mowed down by bloodthirsty marines. Upon seeing the huge wall at Jinro's natural, IdrA confirms that it's a fast expansion build. IdrA begins destroying the rocks connecting his main and Jinro's, a peculiar decision. Jinro moves out as soon as his first two medivacs are done, full of marines with stim. Jinro picks off the queen, forcing the drones to evacuate and retreating before banelings come into play. Jinro loads up a single marine in the medivac, hoping to drop and detonate IdrA's banelings, but IdrA does not bite and this time Jinro certainly has no choice but to make a full retreat. Reinforced with tanks, Jinro attempts to set up along the narrow corridor, and IdrA engages before he could siege. It made no difference however, as Jinro's marine micro simply outmaneuvers the banelings off-creep, and a swift counter push secures game 3 for Jinro. [13:00]
IdrA is 6-pooling. According to Tastosis, this was a pre-emptive build, not one out of frustration. Jinro, similarly to game 1, does not wall in with his supply depot and barracks, and scouts extremely late on Jungle Basin**. Jinro begins a second barracks and uses another SCV to scout along the left middle pathway. IdrA darts down the right side, leaving Jinro's scouting SCV to see nothing but a single drone marching his way down. The zerglings reach Jinro's base as the first marine is in production, and Jinro is forced to cancel his second barracks as that building SCV is massacred by the zerg units. Jinro pulls all his SCVs to escort his VIP marine to the bunker being constructed behind his mineral line. The marine runs for his life as zerglings nibble away and safely hops into the bunker with 5 HP. IdrA pulls some zerglings back to the front bunker to take out the bunker and cut off reinforcement, while the rest works on the CC. Jinro makes another barracks and leapfrogs a bunker to the near side of the CC, just in range of the zerglings. The second bunker finishes before IdrA could finish off the CC, and Jinro takes one of the quickest BO5 in GSL history. [4:34]
** In post game interviews, Jinro has expressed concerns regarding the quality of GOM's soundproof booths. It seems as though Jinro had sent out an earlier SCV than usual, after hearing the riled up excitement from GOM commentators. This, however, did not alter the direction of the game. Jinro's scout arrived in the end too late to catch the oncoming Zerg rush that is now flooding his base. Jinro's lucky break came when he accidentally canceled his first marine instead of barracks, delaying the first marine. Had the marine popped out earlier, there would not have been a complete bunker for him to jump in, thus killing him and costing Jinro the game. An excerpt from his playxp interview is attached below: (Thank you Milkis for the quick translation.)
Q. In the fourth set, you held off a 6 pool. Did you expect it at all?
A. I had thought that IdrA might use it. When I heard the commentators cry out due to some poor soundproofing, I sent a scv out to confirm it. However, before I could do that, the zerglings rushed into my base and in the confusion I accidentally canceled my first marine when I meant to cancel the second barracks. Fortunately for me though, the delay actually managed to keep my marine alive long enough to get it to the bunker and clinch the win.
Congrats! You've made it to the Semifinals again. How does it feel?
Pretty great, proving the people who said it was a fluke the first time wrong is always nice
The games certainly were different than people expected. Everyone was expecting five long macro games.
Yeah, guess it didn't quite work out that way huh? I didn't wanna play a macro game on Metal (2/3 positions) and Idra didn't want to play a macro game on Jungle, both understandable I think.
You lost Game 1. What went wrong?
Just cold hands, that's why TheWind and Minchul brought me hand warmers for Game 2. It's hard to say much else I just couldn't play very well because my hands were extremely cold.
In Game 2 many fans on the forums were "passionate" in their opinions calling your double bunker move cheesy. What do you feel about such a play?
If a Zerg doesn't want to get bunker rushed, they shouldn't make it so damn easy to bunker rush them - i.e. patrol your fucking ramp! I played all my practice games under the assumption that Idra would drone patrol. Then when I scout no drone patrol and the second scv is hidden, sometimes you just gotta go.
Do you feel Idra GG'd too early that game? What would you put his chances at to continue playing there?
His chances were AWFUL but yes, I do think he should have tried just because he doesn't lose anything from trying. I could make a horrible mistake I wouldn't normally make and then he's completely golden. It's his style though, I guess he feels it's not worth it.
In Game 3 you were able to take advantage of good spawn positions to push through the joint corridor between your bases. Even though Idra got baneling speed, you did a very nice marine split. Who taught you that!?
My marine splitting has been ok since GSL3 (not Foxer level or anything but not too shabby), I just never got to show it off!
Everyone wants to know was the MULE drop in Game 3 a mistake or intentional?
Mistake, trying to finish off a wounded tumor. I didn't think the game was over at all.
Your marine in Game 4 survived with five hit points and barely defended Idra's 6-pool rush. What were your thoughts during that game?
No time to think much sorry, I lost a lot of games to this rush when practicing during GSL3. I even think I told Artosis or Idra that I think 6 pool 6 drone is ridiculous bullshit when not scouted. So uhm, I just tried to get lucky and get a marine out. I think I accidentally canceled my marine instead of my second rax which probably messed with the timing a bit, the marine didn't have to stay alive as long until bunk survived. It's a game I should lose though, I'm pretty sure.
Do you think there will be repercussions for you admitting you heard something?
No. I don't even know if I heard anything because I can't hear it when I re-watch. GOM has already addressed it. They just said they would go with earbuds and tighter headsets. There won't be a re-game because nothing I did in my build indicated I knew 6 pool, which is true, I didn't wall. The scout I sent even hurt me. The noise made me scared but it didn't end up affecting the game
Has this sound problem been occurring often? Why hasn't anyone said anything about it until now?
Uhm, it has never been an issue until now, and even now I'm not even sure if I actually heard something. I was sure I did when it happened, but I can't hear it in the VOD at all so I don't know. Hearing cheers, just barely, is generally not something you can take much from. 6 pool and someone having a nice sign sounds the same.
Did you consider pausing and asking for a re-game? Though that might have resulted with even more outrage because Idra looked like he was going to win the game.
I can't pause, it could have been something completely different like a fan sign or something. If I pause and go "hey are you 6 pooling? no? cool, nvm then," that wouldn't go over so well.
You are now 4-1 against Idra. Is it safe to say you're the best foreigner now?
I don't know, it's a big world and I haven't played so many of the non-Korean players in a long time. I also don't feel ready to declare myself the foreign champion or whatever, and be the ultimate representation of the foreign scene in every game I play. If I do end up winning this thing I guess I'd have no choice, but for now I'd like to just... be, you know a representative but not necessarily THE representative. I feel like it's enough pressure just representing myself and TLAF-Liquid for now. We can decide best in the world after the world tournaments or WCG or something later this year
After the series was over oGsMC gave you a high five, is everything candy and rainbows in the oGs-Liquid house after your wins over him in the previous round?
Yeah, MC isn't someone who's gonna hold a grudge over a game. It was back to normal the same day as the games happened basically.
Your next round opponent is MarineKing, who defeated your teammate oGsNada. Are you going to practice with Nada for this next round?
I would I imagine I will, but I don't want to go too deep into what I think about this matchup because I actually think MKP might end up reading this stuff.
Anyone you'd like to thank?
Nazgul for analyzing 50+ reps as always! TOP and Ensnare for giving me nice TvZ builds! Ret, Zenio, JookTo, Luvsic, Cezanne for helping me with countless practice games and advice! The Little App Factory for being an awesome sponsor! And the Fans for watching. Oh, and thanks to TheWind for lending me his jacket as well as him and MC bringing me handwarmers after game 1! Couldn't have won without those.
Good luck in the semifinals!
Next: Jinro in the semifinals, again!
TLAF-Liquid`Jinro takes on the slayer of oGsNada, MarineKingPrime.WE. These two played in the group stage, where MK won with a well-timed marine drop. Can Jinro continue his run and make it to the finals to face Nestea or MVP? The GSL Code S semifinals are this weekend.
Gratz Jinro! I hope you make it all the way to the finals. Would be so awesome to see a foreigner(And Swede!) on the huge stage with pre shows and what not. Last time that happened was when Grrrr won the OSL?
Sad that IdrA got knocked. Now I really hope that Jinro will win! It would have been much more awesome if IdrA and Jinro faced each other in the finals
"""It seems as though Jinro had sent out an earlier SCV than usual, after hearing the riled up excitement from GOM commentators. This, however, did not alter the direction of the game. Jinro's scout arrived in the end too late to catch the oncoming Zerg rush that is now flooding his base. """
His scv did scout the lings in middle of map (watch the vod) but I guess jinro dident se them. GL next round!
Jinro it was an amazing series and you were on top of your game, keep up the good work and good luck in the next round we all hope to see you in the finals
I think Idra left in game 2 as quickly as he did because he was behind from the get go, but also just to show how retarded the state of the game is right now for zerg. Its silly that a terran can just do that and pretty much beat any zerg as long he gets bunker up. Yes you can stop it with a drone but then what? You have to scout too meaning, you are already down 2 drones in close position metaopolis, there is just no point in doing it unless you know it's coming. But who can do that? Z having to put down a drone on choke every game, the thought of that is just fucking retarded. Especially on shit maps.
I dont understand why we just dont get a full base of creep to start with. It wouldn't really speed up creep spread since by the time you can lay a tumor and spread it your expo your 2nd queen would have been out, but oh noes we might actually be able to hide our tech *gasp* considering that we only use 2 units or 3 units or so per match, hiding tech is such a joke as Z.
On January 20 2011 09:23 PhiGgoT wrote: I think Idra left in game 2 as quickly as he did because he was behind from the get go, but also just to show how retarded the state of the game is right now for zerg. Its silly that a terran can just do that and pretty much beat any zerg as long he gets bunker up. Yes you can stop it with a drone but then what? You have to scout too meaning, you are already down 2 drones in close position metaopolis, there is just no point in doing it unless you know it's coming. But who can do that? Z having to put down a drone on choke every game, the thought of that is just fucking retarded. Especially on shit maps.
I think the point is, double bunker going up puts you way far behind while using 1 drone to stop it only puts you a little behind (however many minerals the drone would mine for that time). Patrolling one extra drone is not a guaranteed loss at all, you make it out to be some sort of hugely game altering thing.
Yes the bunkers put you behind as well, what if T doesnt do it? As Z your always at a guess if he hid any scvs outside or anything, and its just more of a pain than anything and really should not even be a factor in the game.
Grats Jinro! (though I'm a zerg player, it was hard to see Idra lose)
For some reason I think its amazing that the oGs guys are helping him out (everyone probably just thinks its normal). It's just so great to see the cooperation.
Great write up, and a totally awesome interview. Those games were amazing, I can't wait to see Jinro take this whole GSL :D It's the season of the Gorilla Terran!
@Phigot, could you not say the same about terran keeping the supply depot up at the ramp to prevent a zergling run-by? Or a protoss not putting a hold position zealot to block the ramp? Both of these will put the opponent way behind.
Congrats JInro, you've been performing exceptionally well.
On the contrary, your next opponent MarineKingPrime has a very unique style of TvT compared to yours. Do you think you will be able to make the necessary adaptations to accommodate to his aggressive and unpredictable style of play?
Congrats to Jinro!! though i would very much like to see idra the gracken come back next year to do just as well..it certainly is very nice to see foreigners do well ;DD
Two bunker ramp on close meta positions, marine makes it to bunker by happenstance. if they played five worthwhile games there might be reason to claim "best foreigner". But frankly, those two Code A caliber games showed nothing.
I only have one problem with bunker rushes. The fact that they can salvage for full return of minerals is just stupid. If they were, to get punished for not pulling it off, I wouldn't mind. That being said gogo jinro^^
On January 20 2011 09:23 PhiGgoT wrote: I think Idra left in game 2 as quickly as he did because he was behind from the get go, but also just to show how retarded the state of the game is right now for zerg. Its silly that a terran can just do that and pretty much beat any zerg as long he gets bunker up. Yes you can stop it with a drone but then what? You have to scout too meaning, you are already down 2 drones in close position metaopolis, there is just no point in doing it unless you know it's coming. But who can do that? Z having to put down a drone on choke every game, the thought of that is just fucking retarded. Especially on shit maps.
I think the point is, double bunker going up puts you way far behind while using 1 drone to stop it only puts you a little behind (however many minerals the drone would mine for that time). Patrolling one extra drone is not a guaranteed loss at all, you make it out to be some sort of hugely game altering thing.
Plus Jinro was hiding a second SCV anyway, so if IdrA was patrolling a drone that second non mining SCV would have been a complete waste for Jinro thus making them even. Patrolling drone is totally worth it.
Damn, it must blow hard for Idra, all the macro and lategame capibilities and 3 games end little more than 20 minutes. The 6 pool game is a REALLY interesting turn of events, let's just say that. Anyways jinro has my support, he better not fucking lose in the next round ^^
On January 20 2011 10:00 StarSense wrote: Two bunker ramp on close meta positions, marine makes it to bunker by happenstance. if they played five worthwhile games there might be reason to claim "best foreigner". But frankly, those two Code A caliber games showed nothing.
This, I was trying to get to that...really disappointed how little the games revealed about the 2 players.
Look at check's game vs jinro - Jinro had a great opener and then he @#$# up and check took advantage of it and later won. Would it be so hard for IDRA to try? While i knew idra's style was to tap out straight away however it was so disappointing game 2, and the series as a whole.
Would you see the most successful esports people such as boxer do such a thing? Cant' say future sponsors of both Idra and gsl would be impressed - they want to see interesting games. Don't get me started on Jinro saying he could hear the korean commentators other then saying what a failure by GOM!
I was so looking forward to the games however fakeboxer/nada match was so much more interesting to watch compared to jinro/idra but overall imo they were average anyway because nada made some bad decisions.
BTW Gratz Jinro - i must admit i was cheering for idra however that has changed!
I won't lie, I was very disappointed in this matchup. It seemed to me that staying up at 3:00 am was not worth seeing terran or zerg cheese. Honestly if i wanted to see how a person would cheese, I could just go ladder. I'm hoping for a more macro game rather than all-in's all the time.
nice writeup but for the love of god, its baneling nest and not banelings nest. It annoys me every time tasteless says it wrong (which is every single time) but now the virus begins to spreat t.t
nice write up TL. Best coverage of professional SC2 in the world (at least that I can understand!) Great to see the community and games getting better and better. But of course, the #1 reason for the growing popularity is the presence of our "foreigners" Jinro, Idra, Huk, etc. Good luck to them all!! But for now, let's go you fucking Swede!
On January 20 2011 10:19 GumiBearz wrote: I won't lie, I was very disappointed in this matchup. It seemed to me that staying up at 3:00 am was not worth seeing terran or zerg cheese. Honestly if i wanted to see how a person would cheese, I could just go ladder. I'm hoping for a more macro game rather than all-in's all the time.
I dont know if it was necessarily cheesy.
The first game went fine decent macro from both players, some engagements were questionable but it was okay.
The 2nd game on metalopolis wasnt necessarily an all-in cheese. Idra just chose to rage quit, he definitely could've made it interesting if he tried a strong one base / nydus / push even being far behind. At the level of play with those stakes he should have at least tried something to catch Jinro offguard.
3rd game went well again, Jinros push along the bridge on Shakuras was well played. Idra just couldnt secure a good position for a win.
4th game was "cheese" most Zergs know taking a 3rd on Basin is extremely difficult and just like in the ro32, Jinro followed up with the same 2 rax expand build. Idra cant play a macro game on basin so 6pooling was his only option. So dont be disappointed in the games, cheese or what not, it all viable strategies.
ie. Look at MKP vs NaDa.... Base trading and marine all in's?
congrats to jinro, nice interview and as always humble as ever. I was really hoping that IdrA woulda pulled the 6pool off so that we could have seen another game between the two
Congrats to jinro, though I do feel Idra sort of defeated himself. Such a quick gg influences your performance in the following matches as well. Fun series to watch, and Jinro fightingu!
I was kind of dissatisfied with the series, as so many of the games ended up short and almost everything that could go wrong for Idra did (as far as spawn locations/maps) but still Jinro showed incredible skill, especially in game 3. He is a great player and I look forward to seeing him battle MKP.
Congrats to Jinro, and gl Idra in next season. Personally what i thinkIdra should've done was to leave the bunkers idle in sight and then make some banelings to bust them out and finally get his natural. That's my 5 cent from a bronzie.
I dont know if it was necessarily cheesy. The first game went fine. The 2nd game on metalopolis wasnt necessaryily an all-in cheese. Idra just chose to rage quit, he definitely could've made it interesting if he tried a strong one base / nydus / push
And where would Idra get the required resources to get a nydus and a large enough army in that short of a time? That's also without Jinro attacking for at least 5 more minutes. Yes it wasn't necessarily all-in because terran can still afford to keep going without losing many resources (thanks to salvage) and honestly, a zerg on 1 base can never go into late game macro. What you're saying is the "ideal" situation of zerg, but i highly doubt any terran let alone Jinro will allow a zerg player to macro back up and just stay idle at his/her base.
]Most Zergs know taking a 3rd on Basin is extremely difficult and just like in the ro32, Jinro followed up with the same 2 rax expand build. Idra cant play a macro game on basin so 6pooling was his only option. So dont be disappointed in the games, cheese or what not, it all viable strategies.
I'm not sure about Idra's case (since i honestly don't watch that many Idra games) but if it was me who got "cheese'd" on international television twice, I really would want to get revenge and cheese back, but idk about Idra, that's just my opinion.
Many people (mostly Jinro fans) would be happy with this outcome and won't mind staying up till 3 am to see this, I, unfortunately, am not one of those people. I play protoss (not zerg or terran) so i'm not just saying this 'cus i favor Idra more, I'm saying this to express my opinion on the game. Sure you may think its a viable strategy, but I'd like to think of it as an unoriginal, common strategy at best. Ladder a bit more, and you'll see these kind of stunts everywhere. Again, this is just my opinion, I'm not stating that terran or zerg is OP at all, I'm just saying that it wasn't worth losing sleep for. >.>
On January 20 2011 09:23 PhiGgoT wrote: I think Idra left in game 2 as quickly as he did because he was behind from the get go, but also just to show how retarded the state of the game is right now for zerg. Its silly that a terran can just do that and pretty much beat any zerg as long he gets bunker up. Yes you can stop it with a drone but then what? You have to scout too meaning, you are already down 2 drones in close position metaopolis, there is just no point in doing it unless you know it's coming. But who can do that? Z having to put down a drone on choke every game, the thought of that is just fucking retarded. Especially on shit maps.
I think the point is, double bunker going up puts you way far behind while using 1 drone to stop it only puts you a little behind (however many minerals the drone would mine for that time). Patrolling one extra drone is not a guaranteed loss at all, you make it out to be some sort of hugely game altering thing.
putting 2 bunkers will get the Terran behind if you compare to the zerg having a drone patrolling the ramp, but the Zerg will be far behind with his delayed hatch.
I don't agree that it shows that the game is in awful state, it was idra's fault for not having a drone there.
I think that idra should have started with hatch before pool, I don't understand why he opted for pool first, its worse for everything: for early defense and for macro game.
maybe he was thinking in going baneling all-in or something unothordox...
I'm pretty sure I saw idra winning a game after getting bunker rushed like that in xel nagas caverns. MLG dallas, IIRC.
On January 20 2011 09:23 PhiGgoT wrote: I think Idra left in game 2 as quickly as he did because he was behind from the get go, but also just to show how retarded the state of the game is right now for zerg. Its silly that a terran can just do that and pretty much beat any zerg as long he gets bunker up. Yes you can stop it with a drone but then what? You have to scout too meaning, you are already down 2 drones in close position metaopolis, there is just no point in doing it unless you know it's coming. But who can do that? Z having to put down a drone on choke every game, the thought of that is just fucking retarded. Especially on shit maps.
I think the point is, double bunker going up puts you way far behind while using 1 drone to stop it only puts you a little behind (however many minerals the drone would mine for that time). Patrolling one extra drone is not a guaranteed loss at all, you make it out to be some sort of hugely game altering thing.
Plus Jinro was hiding a second SCV anyway, so if IdrA was patrolling a drone that second non mining SCV would have been a complete waste for Jinro thus making them even. Patrolling drone is totally worth it.
the thing is that zerg has to put themselves behind to prevent stuff. if the stuff wasn't planned they're behind for no reason. a zealot on hold position and a supply depot up, doesn't hurt your economy nearly as bad. that's a slight version of imbalance imo.
also, (somebody already mentioned that) if it fails, they're not punished. they regain 100% of the minerals and the enemy looses at least some mining time.
On January 20 2011 10:19 GumiBearz wrote: I won't lie, I was very disappointed in this matchup. It seemed to me that staying up at 3:00 am was not worth seeing terran or zerg cheese. Honestly if i wanted to see how a person would cheese, I could just go ladder. I'm hoping for a more macro game rather than all-in's all the time.
There was only 1 all in the whole series (jungle basin 6 pool by Idra). 1st game wasn't an all in, 2nd game wasn't an all in (he just got 2 bunkers up thats idra's fault for not patrolling a drone), third game Idra just failed to defend almost had it defended then lost a few too many units.
But I do hope if they ever play in a bo3/5 again that their better games
On January 20 2011 10:43 Hushfield wrote: Congrats to jinro, though I do feel Idra sort of defeated himself. Such a quick gg influences your performance in the following matches as well. Fun series to watch, and Jinro fightingu!
Yes it does. And he's mentioned it in interviews before: playing a game that he believes he has lost puts him more on tilt for the next games than just quitting, getting over it, and trying to keep the right momentum.
He essentially spares himself 5-20 minutes of psychological torture. Staying in a game that you cannot win for 5-20 minutes is 5-20 minutes of demoralization.
This kind of psychology isn't true for every player, but i can certainly understand how it could be so for some.
6 pool 6 drone is a very good strat on JB I would think, the only losses I really recall on ZvT for Terran was when Terran cheesed by 2 raxing or something (with the exception of a couple mistakes like Jinro/Check and just poor play like with Gon/IdrA oddly enough). At Jinro's level of play, JB is probably going to be a free win for him.
On January 20 2011 10:58 GreatFall wrote: Jinro's the man! And is it me or did IdrA resort to a strategy that he himself relentlessly mocks?
IdrA hates cheese, but he will do it to throw people off from their game, since people never expect him to cheese. This isn't the first time that he 6 pooled either. He has done it a few occasional times on the ladder. The most recent one I can remember was when he six pooled HuK on the ladder on his stream.
On January 20 2011 09:18 Tennet wrote: Did anyone else think of this + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpmnIr_787w
after watching game 2?
Seems that Tasteless was a lot more into SC back then than he is now. Just based on his style of commentary he seemed to know more about the game back then.
Congrats to Jinro. Although blaming a loss (game 1) on anything other than the fact that your opponent just played better than you that game, and not admitting that you just need to figure it out and play better, is highly unprofessional.
Congrats to Jinro for showing everyone that he's the best foreigner Terran in the world.
Very disappointing series overall, though. Game 1 was the only mildly interesting one, and it was pretty standard at that. Game 2... well pros cut corners all the time in tournaments to gain a small advantage, IdrA didn't patrol and missed the second SCV and that was it. Game 3 was just a good timing push and the game was over, nothing interesting in that game. Game 4 was on a ridiculous ZvT map. I wish IdrA would have taken it so that we could have at least had a chance for an entertaining game.
On January 20 2011 11:37 NEOtheONE wrote: A 6-pool and a double bunker rush, sigh. That was an abysmal series. Both of these players should be better than that.
Both players have already explained themselves.
- Idra didn't like his chances of a long game on JB, so he planned to do a 6-pool before the first game - Jinro said the following in his fanclub thread
On January 20 2011 00:17 Liquid'Jinro wrote: Btw, I can tell you that if IdrA hadnt gotten bunkered on Metal I WOULD have cheesed the fuckign shit out of him and I dont care what anyone thinks about it, because on 2/3 positions on that map, I think cheese is the best option for terran to win. Just like what IdrA thought on Jungle Basin, which is a fucking impossible map for zerg in a normal game.
If a Zerg doesn't want to get bunker rushed, they shouldn't make it so damn easy to bunker rush them - i.e. patrol your fucking ramp! I played all my practice games under the assumption that Idra would drone patrol. Then when I scout no drone patrol and the second scv is hidden, sometimes you just gotta go.
I was really hoping for IdrA to win, I think he really deserved it, you know? But I guess that doesn't mean Jinro doesn't either, I guess I'll be rooting for him (and if he's out, MKP). :D
congrats to jinro and cheers to idrA i used to hate idra for being BM but i realise that sc2 is his work and and someone gets mads when something on his work is not fair
On January 20 2011 11:37 NEOtheONE wrote: A 6-pool and a double bunker rush, sigh. That was an abysmal series. Both of these players should be better than that.
Both players have already explained themselves.
- Idra didn't like his chances of a long game on JB, so he planned to do a 6-pool before the first game - Jinro said the following in his fanclub thread
On January 20 2011 00:17 Liquid'Jinro wrote: Btw, I can tell you that if IdrA hadnt gotten bunkered on Metal I WOULD have cheesed the fuckign shit out of him and I dont care what anyone thinks about it, because on 2/3 positions on that map, I think cheese is the best option for terran to win. Just like what IdrA thought on Jungle Basin, which is a fucking impossible map for zerg in a normal game.
Anyway, congrats to Jinro for the win.
Lol, what the hell? Isn't that in complete opposition to what he said in Artosis' interview?
Hmm not the greatest games in history, but you can't blame the players, obviously both of these guys have been involved in plenty of epic matches before. Just goes to show the current state of the maps/race balance that two very macro-oriented players have come to the conclusion after thousands of practice games that 'cheese' is their best option in many circumstances.
Anyways I don't mind so much. Just makes you appreciate the super epic matches more =p
Good luck next round Jinro! And looking forward to seeing Idra next time!
On January 20 2011 09:59 eddytlaw wrote: Congrats to Jinro!! though i would very much like to see idra the gracken come back next year to do just as well..it certainly is very nice to see foreigners do well ;DD
I hope the gracken's back next month. Isn't that when GSL s5 should be?
I don't see how 2 barracks marine/bunker is cheese, in the conventional sense where you "sure hope it's not scouted," at least not in TvZ. There's a lot of information that gives that away, e.g. no gas. Yea, it could also be a fast expand, if you can't find the second barracks, and the randomness of close positions is kind of unfair, but as a spectator it gives more variety, and the players can adapt and stop complaining, IMO, except when there's clearly an abundance of maps that favor one race more than another.
But it's really hard to know which race is favored without a lot of games played. Some new map from ICC may come out, and it seems balanced, but then someone thinks of some strat that becomes too powerful. No one was complaining about 2 rax pressure in season 1. Then roaches got buffed and reaper build got nerfed, right after FD won GSL1, and the "zerg is OP" threads began. Then GSL2 saw the rise of 2 rax builds. It was largely Terran who adapted and Zerg who remained the same. They at first thought, "ah, now I can 14 hatch every game," while Terrans were thinking, "now how can we stop early hatch."
It's not necessarily Zerg's fault that Terran adapted. What really is lacking is more variety in Zerg openers (seeing how a 6 pool all-in was defeated by a Terran without a wall-in today, albeit by a hair, let's leave 6 pool out of the 'variety' discussion unless it has something to do with fast queens). I would really like to see 1 base double hatch become more viable, or, if you contend that it already is, more used.
I'm happy that both have gotten this far. I would have liked to see Idra win, but that's because I'm zerg and think he's an amazing player. Not to take anything away from Jinro. He is an amazing player and deserves to be in the semi-final. Can't wait to see how he does in the rest of the gsl.
Good show for Jinro but I was rooting for Idra. I Learned a lot watching Idra game 1...
Typically I have a huge problem in my play with tanks and marines in combo... Tanks fire and banelings vanish... But Idra walked over the tanks and rines like they were not there... Was awesome.
My thoughts...
WTF was with GG on the bunker rush? Thats what I do haha but I think Idra stood a decent chance of beating that. At the same time its a rush which can win the game that can ultimately cost the terran nothing? I have seen bunkers with practically no hps sold off for a full refund... Yet were a decisive factor in the game.
I am not one to QQ but this seems like a balance issue. A minor one that occurs from time to time but a balance issue nonetheless. I try to equate it to a cannon rush that works economically and then imagine when you know your cannons are gonna die anyways you can just sell em all off and the pylons for a full refund and transition into something new with the mineral infusion. Sounds broken to me.
The 6 pool... I hate dice rolls. I heard on the korean ladder there was a rock, paper scissor scandal that went on... On that map I see 6 pool in that fashion...
A more honest version... but whatever. I can't fault Idra for that other then I feel Idra should have fought it out until the bitter end. (Idra can learn something from BitByBit? That is... how cheese works? JK, but JS)
I honestly really wanted to see that game fought out to see if idra could have pulled out a win there. To the bitter bitbybit end.
What do you guys think? I think there was maybe a 20ish percent chance he could pulled a win off there.... for 1 in 5 I would have liked to see the next 2 mins of that game.... Just sayin.
I also wish Idra hadn't have just GGed when he saw the bunker contain. I wanted to see him try and pull it out, but he probably would have gotten heated if he had wasted all that time and lost anyhow, so I in terms of decision making it was better on his part.
I wish the series had gone on a little longer. Idra should have won that 6 pool all in. Didn't micro just right against that 1 marine. I love Jinro, but for some reason I wanted Idra to make it to the semis this time. The guy is an amazing player, when will it be his turn? Hopefully GSL 4.
But grats to Jinro! He just looks unbeatable right now!
The question I have is since people seem to be upset with the quality so to speak of the matches, is it more the strategy used or the spectacle?
The strategies behind 6pooling jungle basin, or barracks rushing metal are "cheesy" but both players cited their (sound i assume) thinking, but isn't the real issue that as a spectator they are unsatisfying?
Thinking of this in terms of esports in general, I really want to know what exactly was irksome about the play to those of you vocalizing it.
On January 20 2011 14:24 Sygnon wrote: The question I have is since people seem to be upset with the quality so to speak of the matches, is it more the strategy used or the spectacle?
The strategies behind 6pooling jungle basin, or barracks rushing metal are "cheesy" but both players cited their (sound i assume) thinking, but isn't the real issue that as a spectator they are unsatisfying?
Thinking of this in terms of esports in general, I really want to know what exactly was irksome about the play to those of you vocalizing it.
and we cant forget
Well played Jinro
I don't think it that's people are irked at the styles of play at all. Everything that took place had a reason behind it. I think since people enjoy watching both of these players so much they are just a bit disappointed since the games were a bit short. Nothing wrong with the games. I think people wanted to see another epic 40 minute battle like what Jinro displayed earlier in the group stages.
I enjoyed the series though I would've like to see what happened in the Shakuras game had IdrA not messed up on his first attack and lost too many banes.
Are bunkers 2x3 size or something? I thought the patch made it so 2 bunkers don't wall. So either the patch only affected double pylon walls, or metalopolis has weird ramps.
edit: Oh and also, Congrats Jinro!!! GL in the semifinals!
On January 20 2011 15:18 Jonoman92 wrote: I enjoyed the series though I would've like to see what happened in the Shakuras game had IdrA not messed up on his first attack and lost too many banes.
Are bunkers 2x3 size or something? I thought the patch made it so 2 bunkers don't wall. So either the patch only affected double pylon walls, or metalopolis has weird ramps.
I think they look awesome in those leather jackets. IdrA even no longer wears glasses. It's a good move to steer away from the typical layman's nerd-image that progaming has.. plus it's better to look at
Congratz really, i just saw the replays because i was unable yesterday. Great play, u played and profited form idra's weaknesses. Really hope u pass the semifinals this time. Would be so nice to have u in the finals!
I really like that Idra changed up his openings. The first game opener totally caught Jinro off guard. Simple changes like that while still macroing it up, will make him do even better than before. I like the leather gracken style too. Jinro just did really well, and actually having a foreign player besides Idra that shows that he can do really well already is great.
When i saw idra in that leather jacket, and without the glasses, my first thought was that he really is living up to the villain image. He looks so evil :-)
This is not meant in a bad way, but i really got associations to all the evil guys in movies.
You are now 4-1 against Idra. Is it safe to say you're the best foreigner now?
I hope that whomever wrote this question was either intoxicated or heavily under the influence of some substance because there's no way one could logically imply that a single match could define or even overturn another one's title of being the "best non-Korean in StarCraft 2" without that person already having an immense bias to the player that won...
Personal opinion: Jinro should take after the original gorilla terran himself and start psyching his opponents out with his interviews. Rather than saying "i don't want to say anything in case MKP will read it," Jinro could say something that would make MKP play disadvantageously against the actual strats if he reads it, and if he ignores it, make sure the strats are fine anyway. Mindgame like a true champ.
oov responding to a question on his cocky and confident attitude"Yes, on purpose, so does in interviews. E-sports is Mind-sports. Practice is important, while some factors outside the stage weigh much as well. As a progamer, I should be polite to media and fans, but I don't want to show the impression of weakness to people. I'm always confident of winning, so I express my confidence, which is helpful to the matches in my opinion."
oov's use of interviews"I always used interviews strategically. That’s why I would mock my opponents, or pretend to be strong. I thought all of that was momentum, and I would even ask my fans to post things on message boards like “ILoveoov is really good” etc. When I played JulyZerg in the Starleague final, I thought mentality was particularly important. Honestly, I was scared and nervous. After I admitted he was a strong opponent and said honestly what I felt, I was able to go into the game with confidence and get a good result."
Beautiful games, lots of variety, and idra showed us all his gracken powers on xel'naga. But when it comes down to it, idra just needs more work on his mid/early game, because it's obvious how untouchable he is in endgame. Unfortunately, idra (and me, for that matter >.>) just struggles to get to the endgame.
And it's just bad luck that his 6pool failed.
That marine was Clyde in armor. He was notably taller and more handsome than the other marines.
On January 20 2011 11:33 PieGuY wrote: Congrats to Jinro. Although blaming a loss (game 1) on anything other than the fact that your opponent just played better than you that game, and not admitting that you just need to figure it out and play better, is highly unprofessional.
On January 20 2011 11:33 PieGuY wrote: Congrats to Jinro. Although blaming a loss (game 1) on anything other than the fact that your opponent just played better than you that game, and not admitting that you just need to figure it out and play better, is highly unprofessional.
He asked what went wrong, and really the only thing that went wrong for me was that I couldnt play well due to my hands being cold.
That doesnt mean I would have won if they had NOT been cold, IdrAs build was nice.
I gave the same answer in the Korean interview, but admittedly their question was a little different ("Your play wasnt that good in game 1, how come?").
I dunno why But in the picture Idra Looks like the Villain and Chinro Like the Hero ^_^ not saying i dnt like idra (in fact hes probably one of my favrouite zergs) but he has a very snaky look in his eyes
I dunno why put in the picture Idra Looks like the Villain and Chinro Like the Hero ^_^ not saying i dnt like idra (in fact hes probably one of my favrouite zergs) but he has a very snaky look in his eyes
come on guys, what's all this bashing about? These are two reputed macro players playing in a gigantic game for their careers, it would only make sense if they prepare special cheese JUST based on their reputations. It's like how you throw an elbow on a national/international televised NBA game, nobody would push you around. Same idea here, except the elbow ended up winning the games
On January 21 2011 01:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote: He asked what went wrong, and really the only thing that went wrong for me was that I couldnt play well due to my hands being cold.
That doesnt mean I would have won if they had NOT been cold, IdrAs build was nice.
I gave the same answer in the Korean interview, but admittedly their question was a little different ("Your play wasnt that good in game 1, how come?").
Dear WinRo, What are your thoughts on the marineking match? After watching him beat nada in the normal game, do you think that his style is just to volatile to play standard game?
With his powerful drops (16 marines HURT against immobile tank lines) are you considering turrets a little more in TvT? Mech being so mineral efficient, wouldn't they be a good idea to just wrap your base with? What about blueflame hellions to clean up drops?
Also, what about sensor towers? I get the feeling that spotting will be the biggest challenge against a player who does one single strategy a thousand different ways.
Also, please never wear that jacket again :D And you should have gone over and hugged idra. I think his hair might have caught fire If you did.
Jinro's the man! He forced the macro master to resort to cheese all in! The same cheese all in that IdrA bitches about all the time. Such poetic justice.
On January 21 2011 02:58 Zorkmid wrote: Hogwash, IdrA just ran into a very good player that is on a roll right now, a roll unseen in a foreigner in a long long time, perhaps ever.
Do you really think that someone who truly believes in karma is on teamliquid.net?
I really love Greg's playstyle for zerg (more than I like nestea's even) but his attitude really turns me off on liking him as a player. I dislike people who don't have good sportsmanship. One of the things I like most about Jinro is that he goes and congratulates his opponent for a great game, like BoxeR. IMO, it's the anonymity that the internet provides that creates such an attitude. If you don't have to look someone in the face, you don't have to have manners. And the fact that Jinro takes the time to get up, walk over, and shake his opponent's hand is just super classy (and an essential aspect for esports to really take off. People view gamers as angry nerdraging kids, and I take a strong opinion on not doing it.) If I lose a hard game, I take it out on myself, and give the victor all the credit he's earned for beating me.
Basically, that was just a long-winded rant about how glad I am that Jinro won, and how much I hope that we see such a classy individual, much less a foreigner, win the GSL.
On January 20 2011 09:23 PhiGgoT wrote: I think Idra left in game 2 as quickly as he did because he was behind from the get go, but also just to show how retarded the state of the game is right now for zerg. Its silly that a terran can just do that and pretty much beat any zerg as long he gets bunker up. Yes you can stop it with a drone but then what? You have to scout too meaning, you are already down 2 drones in close position metaopolis, there is just no point in doing it unless you know it's coming. But who can do that? Z having to put down a drone on choke every game, the thought of that is just fucking retarded. Especially on shit maps.
I think the point is, double bunker going up puts you way far behind while using 1 drone to stop it only puts you a little behind (however many minerals the drone would mine for that time). Patrolling one extra drone is not a guaranteed loss at all, you make it out to be some sort of hugely game altering thing.
terran can just start building the bunkers, drones get pulled off the line, the Z player loses all this mining time, and then the T can just cancel the bunkers. on top of that, the terran player can salvage the bunkers, suffering no loss at all (except the time invested in the push, but the zerg's expo is delayed and the zerg also loses mining time, and has to spend time fending off the push). also, i think it's kind of bs that Z players have to set a drone on patrol and lose that mining time, even if he doesnt know for sure the T player is going to build a bunker. the mechanics are just too forgiving for T imo. but nonetheless, gz to jinro.
On January 21 2011 09:49 SkeweredFromEarToEye wrote: terran can just start building the bunkers, drones get pulled off the line, the Z player loses all this mining time, and then the T can just cancel the bunkers. on top of that, the terran player can salvage the bunkers, suffering no loss at all (except the time invested in the push, but the zerg's expo is delayed and the zerg also loses mining time, and has to spend time fending off the push). also, i think it's kind of bs that Z players have to set a drone on patrol and lose that mining time, even if he doesnt know for sure the T player is going to build a bunker. the mechanics are just too forgiving for T imo. but nonetheless, gz to jinro.
One drone patrolling the ramp stops everything you just described.
Sometimes we just need to do stuff to make sure a strategy doesn't happen. It's like a terran complaining about magic box mutas countering the unit designed to handle them. We just have to deal with it.
On January 20 2011 14:30 WhoaDrugs wrote: Karma caught up to IdrA. =) Best week ever. Great job Jinro! Good luck!
Hogwash, IdrA just ran into a very good player that is on a roll right now, a roll unseen in a foreigner in a long long time, perhaps ever.
Eh, I'd say the problem was that IdrA ran into some awful maps / positions, coupled with some bad luck.
Not that Jinro isn't a great player, but that isn't quite as relevant, seeing as how we are dealing with the RO8 of GSL Code S (where you expect every player to be a force to reckon with)
Anyway, hope the matches against MKP end up entertaining!
Does anyone know when the semi finals will be played exactly ? I have looked through the page quite thoroughly but couldnt find anything really. The linking to gomtv.com requires korean mastery to be usefull and the league standings doesnt even show the matching of the semis. thx.
On January 21 2011 21:21 Findhorn wrote: Does anyone know when the semi finals will be played exactly ? I have looked through the page quite thoroughly but couldnt find anything really. The linking to gomtv.com requires korean mastery to be usefull and the league standings doesnt even show the matching of the semis. thx.
On January 20 2011 09:23 PhiGgoT wrote: I think Idra left in game 2 as quickly as he did because he was behind from the get go, but also just to show how retarded the state of the game is right now for zerg. Its silly that a terran can just do that and pretty much beat any zerg as long he gets bunker up. Yes you can stop it with a drone but then what? You have to scout too meaning, you are already down 2 drones in close position metaopolis, there is just no point in doing it unless you know it's coming. But who can do that? Z having to put down a drone on choke every game, the thought of that is just fucking retarded. Especially on shit maps.
I think the point is, double bunker going up puts you way far behind while using 1 drone to stop it only puts you a little behind (however many minerals the drone would mine for that time). Patrolling one extra drone is not a guaranteed loss at all, you make it out to be some sort of hugely game altering thing.
Plus Jinro was hiding a second SCV anyway, so if IdrA was patrolling a drone that second non mining SCV would have been a complete waste for Jinro thus making them even. Patrolling drone is totally worth it.
the thing is that zerg has to put themselves behind to prevent stuff. if the stuff wasn't planned they're behind for no reason. a zealot on hold position and a supply depot up, doesn't hurt your economy nearly as bad. that's a slight version of imbalance imo.
also, (somebody already mentioned that) if it fails, they're not punished. they regain 100% of the minerals and the enemy looses at least some mining time.
edit: btw nice writeup!
If u want to be meticulous: building a wall in, will hurt the terrans economy. Would u say the game state is stupid for that reason?? seriously plz stop complaining
I'm glad our foreigner reps are such colorful characters. Jinro looks like some kind of a nerd-eating badass, while Idra is Idra, man. Look at him. He is half man, half android and all supernerd.
On January 20 2011 09:23 PhiGgoT wrote: I think Idra left in game 2 as quickly as he did because he was behind from the get go, but also just to show how retarded the state of the game is right now for zerg. Its silly that a terran can just do that and pretty much beat any zerg as long he gets bunker up. Yes you can stop it with a drone but then what? You have to scout too meaning, you are already down 2 drones in close position metaopolis, there is just no point in doing it unless you know it's coming. But who can do that? Z having to put down a drone on choke every game, the thought of that is just fucking retarded. Especially on shit maps.
I think the point is, double bunker going up puts you way far behind while using 1 drone to stop it only puts you a little behind (however many minerals the drone would mine for that time). Patrolling one extra drone is not a guaranteed loss at all, you make it out to be some sort of hugely game altering thing.
Plus Jinro was hiding a second SCV anyway, so if IdrA was patrolling a drone that second non mining SCV would have been a complete waste for Jinro thus making them even. Patrolling drone is totally worth it.
the thing is that zerg has to put themselves behind to prevent stuff. if the stuff wasn't planned they're behind for no reason. a zealot on hold position and a supply depot up, doesn't hurt your economy nearly as bad. that's a slight version of imbalance imo.
also, (somebody already mentioned that) if it fails, they're not punished. they regain 100% of the minerals and the enemy looses at least some mining time.
edit: btw nice writeup!
If u want to be meticulous: building a wall in, will hurt the terrans economy. Would u say the game state is stupid for that reason?? seriously plz stop complaining
also, if the zerg manages to make the terran cancel the bunker instead of letting it finish, the terran will actually lose 25 minerals.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL4/GSL4MCwidebanner.jpg)
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My marine splitting has been ok since GSL3 (not Foxer level or anything but not too shabby), I just never got to show it off!
